Analysis

They sound like Trump: senior Survation pollster’s verdict on centrists’ denial and their referendum push that cost Labour the last general election

Continued attempts by Labour right to rewrite history puts them on a par with delusional US president

A senior Survation pollster has compared Keir Starmer’s allies and the rest of the Labour right to Donald Trump for their determination to deny that their push for a new Brexit referendum caused Labour’s general election defeat in 2019.

Carl Shoben, the strategic communications lead at the well-known polling company has tweeted his analysis of a new report by working-class Labour MPs on their ten-month tour of former Labour towns to speak to thousands of working-class voters – and of the attempts of the Labour right to rewrite history to blame Corbyn for the general election loss:

Shoben’ ‘Sound familiar?’ question about the right’s denialism and claims of ‘lies’, ‘manipulation’ and ‘fooling voters’ is a clear reference to the conduct of Donald Trump since his election loss to Joe Biden last week.

The Labour right’s claims that backing a new referendum was the path to a general election win were always nonsense and were always going to kill Labour’s electoral prospects – and the working-class left warned of the obvious consequences throughout. The attempts of the Labour right now to pretend it didn’t happen are no less delusional and dishonest.

The ‘No Holding Back’ report will be launched by Laura Smith, Jon Trickett and Ian Lavery tonight at 7.30pm with a Zoom rally broadcast on the group’s Facebook page and the SKWAWKBOX Facebook page.

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110 comments

  1. Deny that “voters are fooled” and you also deny the effect of tory/MSM propaganda.
    Can’t even be arsed looking up the quote but something like 30% of the electorate believed the antisemitism scam.
    WERE THEY NOT FOOLED?

    1. “You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.”

      1. “I think Bob Dylan said that” Not quite.
        Talkin’ World War III Blues from the Freewheelin’ album:

        “Well, now time passed and now it seems
        Everybody’s having them dreams.
        Everybody sees themselves walkin’ around with no one else.
        Half of the people can be part right all of the time,
        Some of the people can be all right part of the time,
        But all of the people can’t be all right all of the time.
        I think Abraham Lincoln said that.
        “I’ll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours.”
        I said that.”

    2. Stop whining about the MSM McNiv. You fooled yourself. Remain was THE reason victory was handed to Johnson. Check the map of the results🔴

    3. David McNiven, how many voters would have been deterred by antisemitism? How many voters were deterred to vote for Trump because of his scandals involving women in 2016?
      I am saying this as a committed pro EU, have we stood firm on the commitment we undertook on the 2017 manifesto to enact Brexit, rather than engage in the mirage that was the People’s Vote,we would have been able to retain seats in the Red Wall.
      The perception of Labour been institutionally antisemitic, it would have damaged our changes of winning the GE by a majority, but not enough to allow Boris a whooping Tory majority. We would have managed to maintain our ground, perhaps even made modest wins and return a hung Parliament.

      1. I’m bored with these attempts to justify the stupidity of voting first for UKIP, then for Brexit, then for the Tories.
        And STILL you think you’re socialists.

      2. David – It was revealed today by Lionel Barber (Ex Editor of the FT for 15yrs) that during a meeting with Dominic Cummings prior to the EU Referendum that he challenged DC that the figure on the side of the bus was but a drop in the bucket compared to how much it would cost the economy if the UK left the EU and Cummings replied “Well you know that and I know that but the ordinary person has no idea”

        The interview starts at 2:42:10 to 2:55:10
        The quote above is very near the start point I have given.
        https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000p89x

        I wonder if Lionel Barber knew that Cummings would be resigning tonight ?

    4. McNiven, the argument is not about the rights and wrongs of the Brexit decision, but about the stupidity of Labour ignoring the reality of that decision, and paying the political price for it. But as I have said before, you know that don’t you, it is just that your pathetic ego will not allow you and others to acknowledge that you were had by Starmer and the neoliberal wing of the party.

      1. “Had?” Not a chance. Not by Starmer, not by Farage, not by Trump, not by Johnson, not by neoliberalism and not by Brexit.

        “the argument is not about the rights and wrongs of the Brexit decision, but about the [reality] of Labour ignoring the [stupidity] of that decision”

        There – fixed it for you.

    5. David, yes they were fooled about antisemitism, and they don’t like to be told that either. The point is its hard to tell the electorate they were fooled and expect to win. Whether they were fooled or not fooled is irrelevant. Once you claim it people get defensive. Like you do. The second ref lost us the election. Its absolutely clear.

      1. Pandering to the electorate as if only pearls fell from their lips is not only weak but unproductive – either socialists lead and educate or the snake oil salesmen will tell them what to think. And they do. Again and again and again.
        I’m not defensive, I’m aggressive – but it’s not my fault.
        It’s a perfectly normal effect of being marooned on an inferior planet.

      2. David, I agree socialists should lead not just pander. What I don’t agree with is lying to the electorate as a strategybto do that. People become fooled because trust is gone. We cant gain that trust back until we stop making fools of people.

    1. They collapsed because they were liars and Tory enablers who had changed their political direction from social democrat to Orange Book liberalism. Some of them were so extreme they were appalled that Lansley’s NHS reforms didn’t go far enough and they also wanted to privatise the criminal justice system and give all prisons to the private sector. They were a step too far for LibDem voters.

      1. They sound like Trumpton and the Israel Lobby
        Well I bliddy never
        Methinks so too

    2. Precisely Michael. With all their MSM support, Tons of Money, No A/S smears etc they as you rightly say COLLAPSED‼️‼️‼️ Where are they❓❓❓ Down their REMAIN HOLE🛑🛑🛑

      1. QUESTIONS: Where are the Liberal Democrats with the firm and un dithering REMAIN fest + TONS of funding + FULL MSM support❓ Where are the TINGES and CUKS❓ A/S free + MSM fawning + tons Tons TONS of funding❓ Where’s Ummuna, Soubrey and Berger and Limp Dim leader whose name has faded from
        memory❓ Where are they if the INSULT of rejecting a democratic vote was not THE issue of the election❓

        Electorates have ALWAYS exercised protest votes especially in a rigged system like ours. People did not vote FOR Tories. They PROTESTED against being taken for granted. They rightly rejected being taken for fools with “Constructive Ambiguity” = they are so stupid we clever clogs can fog them around with this. Read my posts on the run up to the election. I BEGGED HERE on Skwawkbox for our core traditional voters to forgive the insult. They did not forgive. I will never condemn them for that. Rather i condemn those who continue to insult them and call them racist.

        As ever, incisive analysis and plain facts have no traction with well meaning people. Reality does not cut it so let the best be the enemy of the good. Dance around fantasies of perfection while Jess Phillips “knifes in the front”, Starmer Mandelson, Bliar and Campbellend laugh their heads off when SteveH tops up their champagne.

        Even they can see that the timely tangible aim was being in a position to implement our policies by winning the election so they woke up every day thinking of how to undermine Jeremy.

        Judging by the apparent conviction of the likes of McNiv and the genuine expression of others showing sad fixation STILL on SPECULATIONS about what MIGHT come to pass and the demerits of Brexit, while Starmer & co rejoice at being HANDED back control of our party, me thinks Mandelson & Campbellend could have spent more time sleeping, cavorting on oligarchs’ yachts and hobnobbing with every thieving murderous despot, and they would have still achieved their aim easily. They know it and they must be laughing their many headed heads off and on again like whirling head-banging demented gorgons.

      2. If Labour had been pro-Brexit it might have won the 2019 GE – but then (according to your theories of the EU) Labour, as a socialist party, would have found negotiating a deal with the neoliberal EU far harder than the neoliberal Johnson found it.
        You Brexiteers would all accept that I’m sure – or have a very good explanation of why you don’t – since EU opposition to and hatred of socialism is the main plank of the so-called “Lexit” argument.

        The coming Brexit disaster that will probably see off the Tories would then have been Labour’s disaster.

  2. Lets not forget that according to Jeremy Corbyn 70% of the membership supported staying in the EU and a CV.

      1. A similar number of Labour voters also supported a CV and staying in the EU. Unfortunately in some areas Labour Brexiteers in their infinite wisdom voted Tory.

      2. The problem is Labour voters in London, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and the south were pro remain. In the south Labour doesn’t hold many seats so it just left the large connerbations, the rest of the country where Labours traditional seats were, were mostly leave voters and nearly all Labours target seats were in leave constituencies.
        Labour’s advisers and strategists served them very poorly.

      3. I’m not sure that pissing off 70% of the party instead of <30% would have proved to be a successful strategy.

      4. It’s you who constantly harp on about the importance of winning elections. Labour had a good chance of winning and chose not to even attempt to win in the constituencies they most needed to.

      5. lundiel – I agree, Karie Murphy ‘ran’ an absolutely abysmal campaign.

      6. EXACTLY lundiel! Plus how did they come to that decision? Did Jeremy ever explain to them why he was ALWAYS in the anti EU Lobby on EVERY vote❓ No. AH dictum was observed – Don’t upset creatures who make their hatred of you plain… over FIFTY plus years!
        Don’t put your views even to members who ONLY joined to support and DEFEND you. No, AH says appease Starmer – “Mr Remain”, Dianne Abbott recently called him.

        That is why it must be repeated, that at the core of the “Left” is a neglect of ALL the basics of winning. Think of it, even now in our dire state of FULL STENCH sir Starmer Shithouser, knowledgable, inteligent people like McNiv are STILL mesmerised by the fetish of EU membership. Think of it. Why❓ Because if you LISTEN and VISIT in the once industrial Labour strongholds, you will if you were interest HEAR and SEE wanton NEGLECT by the political classes Tory AND RED TORIES.

        DECENT people have been TAKEN for granted, IGNORED and now STILL insulted. THAT arrogant attitude brings shame on the “Left”. I believe that attitude is DISGRACEFUL 🔴🔴🔴

    1. SteveH, it doesn’t appear to bother you or Starmer that by suspending Corbyn he is pissing off about 1/3 of Labour members
      I am a pro EU, but realised that the People’s Vote was a mirage that wasn’t going to deliver remaining in the EU, but rather a Tory government and a bad deal Brexit.
      Many good honest Labour Party members that supported Corbyn were mugged by the right of the Party. Starmer has very quickly forgot about remaining in the EU.
      Once the catastrophe of Brexit becomes clearer and they come to understand that the better option was to support Corbyn’s Brexit vision of remaining in the custom union and very much aligned to EU legislation protecting employments rights. They could turn on Starmer and held him responsible for leading them to believe that the People’s Vote was something that was achievable.
      Starmer better put the unity of the Party first and reinstate the whip to Corbyn. We all want a united Party but he isn’t going to get it by leaving Corbyn out in the cold.

      1. Maria – The polling of Labour voters indicates that 40% supported JC’s suspension, 33% are indifferent and 26% oppose it.

      2. Exactly right Maria. I am staunchly pro EU-membership and also recognised that the Campbell/Mandelson axis were using the PV issue as a stick to beat our wonderful former leader with – irrespective of consequence..

        People like SteveH are willing patsies to reprobate dark arts practitioners like Peter Mandelson and Alastair Campbell.

        Sad really.

    1. labrebisgalloise12/11/2020 AT 12:59 PM
      “Hammer…nail…head. Spot on Skwawk!” Please explain. I dont have a clue what this article is about.
      I’ve read it twice, is the article trying to say that the loss of 50 seats was the result of ‘centrists’? That it was the ‘centrists’ that conspired together to put a second EU referendum on the Labour manifesto? And that Labour lost the 2019 GE as a result of their conspiracy?
      Talk about ‘denial’. No this is not denial this article is much more than denial, this is manipulation. This is a gross convolution of the facts, it is twisting what happened into a conspiracy theory that is so fantastice it is almost impossible to follow.

      Here are the facts.

      Labour lost 50 seats in north England 2019GE.
      In 2016 EU referendum Leave won.
      The north of England voted to Leave.
      The north won the referendum for the UK to Leave.
      Labour manifesto 2019 said “Vote Labour for a second EU referendum”.
      That manifesto pledge was seen as a massive insult to historical north Labour supporters because it was an insult.
      That ‘insult’ to life long supporters cost Labour any chance it had in the GE of 2019.
      Jeremy Corbyn was leader of the Labour party.
      John McDonnell was shadow chancellor.
      Diana Abbott was shadow Home Secretary..

      Now any analysis of why Labour lost 50 seats needs to start with these facts. This attempt by Skwawkbox to link the loss of the seats to ‘centrists’ is more than an insult. Its laughable. Starmer and his so called ‘centrists’ will love reading this.

      I thought a week or two ago Starmer might put the screw on McCluskey and close down The Skwawkbox. But I dont think he will now. The articles are so far fetched, I dont think he gives a toss about Skwawky. Skwawky is no threat to the ‘brand’. And he can always use it his advantage, as in, “see what I mean”..

      1. Are you real? Corbyn is a democrat and the majority of members, staff and ruling bodies supported remain. Yes, a lot of blame should be laid at the door of Corbyn’s advisers but unless you are saying he (Corbyn) should have been more presidential in his leadership, you can’t really blame him. Imo, he should have had a real clear out and allowed constituencies to choose who represented them but I’m enough of a realist to know that course of action would have signed his death warrant. The party is hopelessly compromised by careerists.

  3. Surely it was dithering over Brexit that caused the landslide. As a French commentator said; Brexit was a vote for nostalgia, for an age which never existed.

    1. It was no such thing. For working people Brexit was a vote against interference and globalism. People of my generation wanted to leave since Maastricht which showed where the EU was going and the early benefits of joining were lost.

    2. Month after bloody month of ‘Constructive Ambiguity’ pissed all over Jeremy’s USP and destroyed the electorate’s trust in him. Once trust is lost it’s game over.

      1. SteveH, I agree with you on this one, only that Starmer support for the People’s Vote forced us to have a “Constructive Ambiguity”
        I don’t believe for a minute that going all the way in favour of remaining in the EU would have served us better. I believe it would have cost us even more seats in the red wall.

      2. Maria – You are of course entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine. I don’t anticipate we will ever have a meeting of minds on this, do you?

      3. SteveH
        You won’t have to, your days in the Labour party are numbered
        There is no meeting of minds with those who prefer a Tory government

      4. Doug – I’m sorry but you are confusing me with Toffee,
        I’ve always voted Labour and I will continue to vote Labour.

    3. UNNECESSARY “dithering” lawrenesroberts.
      Tories called the referendum to end a long running Tory argument.
      The electorate listened to both sides and voted.
      Starmer & Co knew Jeremy’s PLAIN and EXPRESSED EU antipathy TOTALLY in line with Clement Atlee and Tony Benn.
      There first tact was, knowing Jeremy’s nature, they would try to put him in a situation as they expected him to be VERY uncomfortable.
      Jeremy’s team believed they could fog it out by being vague… and dithering to the point of the insulting and embarrassing “Constructive Ambiguity”.
      A/S was just intended to increase pressure knowing it would cause more running away from confrontation and an intensified craving for the Right Wing bastards to ease the “pressure”. It never worked throughout Jeremy’s experience in the party, but hope took the place of BASIC OBSERVATION of the OBVIOUS. We had the mother of all election victories in the bag ie CRUSHING the Tory Party for at least TWO generations.

      Instead because the “Left” is driven by out of touch metropolitan careerist and virtue signallers, OUR victory, our HISTORY, Jeremy’s victory ie being on the correct side of history and vision, was squandered. I suspect that at the CORE of the “Left” is a learned belief that they need the Right Wing to govern. The right wing have no such limp fantasies. And they are not theory obsessed. In fact they invent new theories on the spot to justify their crimes eg Iraq Invasion SERCO, G4S, Carillon, A4E, Atos, Kate Bingham, Dido Garding, Robert Jenrick, Ferry contract with no ferries man… forgot his name … OVER £100 BILLION projected Covid-19 contracts all UNscruitinised.

      Similar atrocities have been going on RIGHT HERE and THROUGHOUT the EU. They continue now, YET STILL well meaning people obsess about Brexit when we are being robbed blind NOW‼️ NOW‼️ Robbed blind here and NOW by the Right Wing while migrants perish in the Mediterranean RIGHT NOW‼️

      1. Failing Grayling and they had to pay compensation for not allowing competitive tendering to ferry companies..
        SERCO did some fund raising in USA and G4S loooks likely to be taken over by an American Prison company.

      2. Thanks sm🌹 As i’v said im gratitude b4, many minds and hands make light work🌹 Yes Failing Grayling! That’s the dodgy geezer! And the Limp Dim PRIME MINISTER is JO SWINSON – Cancel Brexit in Chief Fanatic with FULL turbo charged MSM support remarkable $€£ +++ and miraculously anti-Semitism immune. But not immune to preserving the Status Quo by jumping into any sewer with the Tories and betraying young people re: Student Fees.
        Were they dumped because of the MSM❓
        No. They were rightly rejected because of their migrainous disdain for the electorate.

        p.s. The American company u mention re G4S and SERCO may be a Blackwater associate. The “many” WORLDWIDE are being screwed by a tight revolving door cycle of Hedge Funds , Big “Auditors” , “Consultancies” , Directorship Revolving Doors , and the EU which allows Apple, Google, Starbucks, Facebook etc ALL to dodge taxes in their jurisdictions. ALL the EU enabled tax dodging developed and continues to be facilitated while we were members of the EU.

        So re our dire plight here in the UK and here in our party RIGHT NOW, the Brexit debate as even Warmonger Blair and Disgusting Mess headed Sir Starmer always knew has been “settled”. How they must be laughing their snouts off and still see the necessity to show up and try to keep defending their priority – maintain the status quo.

        To face facts, they would never waste one second on things that did not serve their perceived PRACTICAL interest ie getting even more of the world’s wealth into their grubby greedy selves. So far they have had an easy ride…. a very easy ride.

      3. Jeremy and Keir have something in common, they are both millionaires with a similar nett worth

      4. SteveH you know full well that Jeremy and Kier are VASTLY different. Jeremy wishes for and would be happy with a world transformed for the better.

        Your Keith on the other hand has no such wishes and so did everything he could to stop transformation coming to pass.

        Net worth etc as you have plucked out of the blue is irrelevant. But once again you show a trait that people on the “Left” lack. Despite snatching the leadership by foul means, getting your BloJob & Cummings elected you STILL work night and day to make sure your gains are secured.

        Heartbreakingly for me, i confess, this very day, here on SB and in my own CLP there is an unfathomable demotion of the basics for secondary or even tertiary concerns. The odd bleating about an impending disaster of leaving a political union. While Scotland is happy to leave our closer national union, that’s fine… with the same well meaning people. Maybe what keeps me “motivated” is the mystery of it. Fascinating in the extreme. I read posts from people with whom there is total concert in most issues then BANG an intense diversion away from what is pressing here and now.

        Then the curious ease with which decent people call fellow citizens racist and stupid and in the next post portray people elsewhere as one homogenous mass of people deserving their care and respect.

        What would be an interesting experiment would be to put certain people for four full years of full contact with people elsewhere. … even then the psychology may still be find an excuse, the MSM, the this the that the the other. Never mind what could we do differently? How could we analyse differently. Do we need to focus on our basic aims? Do we BELIEVE we can succeed or all posts a defeatist defeated tantrum. We are convinced we can never win so lash out and find some remote concern to feel virtuous … a mission… displacement❓❓❓

        But SH it is clear u don’t suffer that. U r on your ball doing your work… overtime. So u try to link JC to your Sir Starmer. Your Keith Starmer will never be worth even a spilt thimble 1/4 full of Jeremy’s cat’s piss🟡

      5. windchimes – Well ‘thanks’ for the long, long diatribe in response to me posting a simple fact. Unfortunately if I was intended to be the target audience then you wasted your time. I tried to persevere but it was just so incredibly boring.
        In future can you try and make your replies more succinct and to the point.

  4. I’d say it was a brilliant strategy SH, for the people who hatched it. We were chased from the doors in working class area’s in the last election Not for anti-antisemitism as many seemed to understand that the knives were out for JC, and this was the tool to use by the establishment and their cronies.
    It was the lack of democracy shoved down their throats by the apparatchiks who hold all the paid positions in the LP. I doubt the LP will ever win an election in the next twenty years or more, if ever. An Opposition MP job will be fantastic, just kiss arse to get up the career ladder seems to be the aim judging by comments. Kerching!!
    The current regime is totally unaccountable, has more in common with Tory ideology and their attitude towards democracy the same as fascists; they hate it.. As someone who hasn’t resigned the LP yet, I’d be grateful if we could have an explanation of how the LP can be turned around, as some suggest.
    The LP now represents the people who own it. They’re not like me at all. Very few, if any, have ever been shop stewards or represented anyone in any capacity before they ‘joined the club’ of paid apparatchiks or became reps of the LP.
    They don’t have, and don’t want to hear any talk of accountability as the concept is totally alien to them. They believe that their position is now that of a manager, to follow orders from the owner and kick arse accordingly’; members treated like employees.
    As the LP has abandoned working class people then a void will appear, as predicted by many. So now we have ‘Common Purpose’ , and other fascist organisations winning the youth over with protests against the lock-down, presumably filling young heads with real antisemitism and pointing the finger of blame at suitable targets.
    The LP is dead I believe. No meetings, no meaningful correspondence, no leaflets, nothing, zilch. In Wavertree the campaign to destroy the LP has gone great for those who despise democracy. Some would argue that the Councillors would be just as happy in the Lib Dems, so long as they still got their allowances.
    They’ve succeeded after accusations and expulsions, back stabbing, lies and an autocratic attitude and using the local rt wing media to attack good people. Nowt here on this site about it though Sqwarky, disabled people being victimised etc, because they’re disabled. It’s what fascists do so expected it to be flagged up here.
    Noticeable, while we still had meetings the lack of none academics attending. Meetings of a hundred people went down to forty.
    The LP, amusingly, still thinks it’s a Party for working people, when the majority of working people have nothing but contempt for the sanctimonious pricks. Me especially 🙂 It’ll be interesting to see how SIR Stormer and his boys deal with the 4-5 million unemployed, who will be without proper benefits to survive.
    Judging by the current performance they’d probably agree to ‘set the dogs on em’ rather than offer a political and economic alternative where nobody would go hungry. Socialist ideology is something they either have no understanding, or hate, or both. But cmon, those who have a cunning plan to make the LP a democratic organisation, lets hear it please.

    1. potatoclock – Which is why the absolutely abysmal progress on the democratisation of the party and the accountability of the PLP during JC’s tenure is such a profound disappointment.

    2. @potatoclock,
      Coming from the South Wales Red Wall, or, that should be what remains of the once proud Red Wall, I can attest to the veracity of your Post and as such, share the same sentiment as you – I expect my own Constituency of Torfaen to become Tory in 2024 – one things for sure, I’ll not be voting for the Labour incumbent MP, nor will those who Voted Brexit Party. And, this after a lifetime of voting Labour, a Party now so alien to me and many of those I grew up with that it may as well call itself LibDem or Tory.

      1. christopher – “I expect my own Constituency of Torfaen to become Tory in 2024 – one things for sure, I’ll not be voting for the Labour incumbent MP”

        You seem to be proud of your intention to enable a Tory government. 😞

    3. @SteveH,

      Regrettably Mr H, Starmer’s voice of unreason on Skwawkbox, I’m not obliged to vote Labour as I’m deemed a threat to the Rightwing, neoliberal, wanton warmongering, Racist, Zionist shite Party you adore, which, was not the Party I first joined when Michael Foot was at the helm.

      Unlike you, I have a conscious, principles and strong morality, a morality that means I do not gift TRAITORS my vote. And, to remind you, in Wales Labour are not the only show in town, further, we have FPTP and PR operating side by side for Welsh and Westminster elections, so, please withdraw your crap comment, one that indicates clearly that allegedly I’m supposed to vote Labour regardless.

      Well Sir, I will not play your game and will actually campaign against the PROGRESS/Labour First scum embedded in my Constituency and will do so with other genuine socialists who don’t play your silly games, which, lets be blunt is not promoting democracy, rather, you support lies and authoritarianism.

      And, please don’t respond as sick to death of your ‘paid’ input to this forum, an input that usually makes me desire to vomit,

      1. christopher – Thanks for all the high minded moral rectitude but the fact remains that it was you that very clearly stated that you expected your constituency to fall to the Tories and in the same breath said you wouldn’t be voting Labour. Wasting your vote on some no hope party doesn’t give you the moral high ground.

  5. SteveH12/11/2020 AT 2:36 PM
    Maria – You are of course entitled to your opinion just as I am to kier’s

    Fixed it for you. 👍😉

    1. Toffee – It can’t do much for your self esteem to feel you have to resort to pathetic childish nonsense like this.

      1. Iain – It is not a secret that I voted for Keir Starmer in the leadership election just like it is also not a secret that I voted for Jeremy in both his leadership elections.

      2. Prefer
        Mountain of grey with two tails which has just dumped 27lb of merde on your coffee table
        Then you know there’s an elephant in the room

      3. Don’t be stupid. When a political party has been hijacked, or for that matter, has willingly changed it’s political direction counter to what it says on the membership card “democratic Socialist”, then it can expect to lose voters and members who don’t wish to go in that direction. I know you don’t understand what I’m saying and it probably goes against your economic status but you really should rethink your ideology, and maybe do some research into ‘managed democracy’ (inverted totalitarianism). Because you just don’t be seem to get it.

      4. lundiel – “you really should rethink your ideology”

        I like the vast majority of the electorate simply don’t share your ridiculous dreams of a socialist utopia, I’m more or less happy with Chapter 1, Clause IV of the Labour Party Rule Book.

      5. lundiel – That may be the case now, but that wasn’t the case throughout JC’s tenure.

      6. SteveH12/11/2020 AT 4:51 PM
        christopher – “I expect my own Constituency of Torfaen to become Tory in 2024 – one things for sure, I’ll not be voting for the Labour incumbent MP”

        You seem to be proud of your intention to enable a Tory government. 😞

        And you’re evidently proud of your prt in stammer throwing the elction to enable his ‘paasage’ into the leadership; in the process enabling an RIGHTY SEAT TOERAG MAJORITY.

        Knobhead.

        SteveH12/11/2020 AT 5:00 PM
        lundiel – Are you a closet Tory voter.

        Asks the bugle who openly and unashamedly trumpets his support of his idol’s bragging of his own open support of toerag policy.

        And, who repeatedly runs away from the question: ‘ Name ONE thing stammer’s OPPOSED since usurping the leadership’?

        So don’t be labelling anyone else as ‘child’ until your balls drop, you become a MAN, and answer the questions you’re persistently asked.

      7. Toffee – I’m just disappointed that so many of the ‘working class’ voted Tory because Labour either failed or just didn’t bother to convince them it was in their own and their communities interests to vote Labour.

      8. Don’t reply to me unless it’s to answer the question of what stammers opposed since usurping the leadership.

        I – along with many many others on here – find your lily-livered obfuscation, evasion and fanatical pro-stammerist shite, tedious to the point of exasperation

      9. Oh, and is that excrement-coloured rodent on your avatar a self-portrait?

        It’s mightily apt all the same.

  6. Some are saying that the antiSemitism smears had little or no effect in swinging the vote against Labour. What absolute nonsense. Many voters may not know or even bother about the antiSemitism smear campaign but it was the sour atmosphere it created. On top of that, they saw Israel lobby Labour MP after Labour MP stand up to trash Corbyn. This had the desired effect of casting doubts over Corbyn’s Leadership.

    Brextremists will never accept this because it contradicts their contention that a peoples’ vote did the damage. They conveniently forget that it was a PEOPLE’S vote which was called for i.e. EVERY person who was eligible had the choice to confirm or change their original position. It’s called democracy but a few members and MPs on the left did not want this expression of democracy to go ahead.

    Those of us on the left who did want this additional layer of democracy and confirmation, given it was so important, are now labelled as ‘Centrist’ or ‘Soft Left’ as a term of abuse by the anti-democratic left.

    1. Oh come on. You’d have a rerun every year untill you got the result you wanted. And you have the nerve to talk of democracy and the EU in the same comment when other countries have to have new referendums until they get the required result, they all have their monitory policy decided by France and Germany and are all forced to attempt a balanced economy when the only country that benefits is Germany. And all have to put public ownership up for private tender. That’s not democracy.

    2. Lundiel please be grown up about this, one democratic confirmatory vote is all that was proposed. Non sequiturs don’t cut it, what we decided had nothing to do with what other countries did in respect of democracy.

      With regard to EU policies, Britain was one of the most influential, winning 92% of decisions.

      Anyway, we’ll soon see who needs who the most. With our economy relying upon the EU to take 60% of our exports but only 16% of theirs coming here, I would say the answer is obvious wouldn’t you?

      1. Please don’t bullshit.
        “The EU, taken as a whole is the UK’s largest trading partner. In 2019, UK exports to the EU were £294 billion (43% of all UK exports). UK imports from the EU were £374 billion (52% of all UK imports). The share of UK exports accounted for by the EU has generally fallen over time from 54% in 2002 to 43% in 2019.2 days ago”

        https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7851/#:~:text=The%20EU%2C%20taken%20as%20a,2002%20to%2043%25%20in%202019.

      2. The point is the EU would have walked away from negotiations a long time ago if it wasn’t important to them, particularly as all goods to and from Ireland currently come through UK and individual EU countries have a lot to lose. It’s your argument that is childish.

      3. lundiel – Of course they want a deal, unlike the Tories who seem determined to leave without a deal. They are also determined not to be labelled as the guilty party in this very messy divorce.

      4. Lundiel, you’ve obviously been taken in by the Farage smoke and mirrors, he used the same to argument to bamboozle voters.

        I spoke about PERCENTAGES please try and get your head around it and don’t fire back until you understand the reality.

        We rely upon them 60% and they rely on us 16% which means that in practice the EU doesn’t rely upon us at all. It really is that simple.

      5. Of course, both the EU and ourselves have something to lose by us leaving the EU and it is in both our interests to have some sort of deal. Please don’t mistake the EU’s willingness to negotiate as a weakness – they hold all the cards

      6. If you want percentages it’s roughly 8% of GDP for us. Trade will continue with or without tariffs.

      7. Lundiel, unless you can show different, the figure you quote is for services only, it does not include goods.

      8. Lundiel, you are correct, trade will continue but without a deal, import duty could rise to between 10 and 20% plus all the other paperwork costs. It will be the least well off who will suffer.

        What is so frustrating, is none of this money and time wasting need have happened in the first place if the implications of Brexit had been fully explained without the evil of Farage and his anti immigration obsession being given so much attention, particularly by the BBC.

        This is one of Labour’s big failures, the right and sections of the left were allowed to sabotage Labour’s Remain campaign.

      9. See, you weren’t listening again Jack T. I told you that my generation were against remaining in the EU since the treaty of Lisbon, Maastricht. Of course Farage had an effect and the publicity surrounding him, more so. But we were anti-EU anyway, left and right for different reasons so don’t blame it all on Farage and ‘racists’…..The EU is not what we signed up to and we should have been given a referendum on Maastricht, it would have been democratic.

      10. Lundiel, I fully accept that you and others had your own reasons for wanting to leave. In fact I never wanted to join the Common Market in the first place but I saw it develope slowly into the EU with more emphasis on worker’s rights and I changed my mind.

        However, we were discussing why the public voted to leave and reject Corbyn. It is my contention that Farage his lies and anti immigration position plus the antiSemitism smears swung the vote. In my opinion, there were also other irregularities, such as those who were denied a vote which went against Remain.

      11. Wrong Comrade JackT. Wrong outcome for a vote to Leave that could have & should been negotiated by Jeremy Corbyn & not Dominic BoJo. A Trade Deal that kept us close to European Trade plus autonomy. Starmer sabotage.

    3. Still in denial then Jack, is your problem the same as McNiven’s ie you will not admit you have been had by the LP’s neoliberals.

      1. John, not in denial at all. I don’t for one minute accept that a call for a confirmatory vote was the reason for Labour’s defeat.

        The damage to Labour was done long before that and for the reasons I have stated. In many Labour areas such as my own, where Farage was shown the door, Remain won the referendum vote and Labour seats stayed Labour.

        In those areas which were deliberately targeted by Farage, preaching hate against immigrants, Leave won the referendum and Labour, who were seen to favour immigration, lost seats.

        No John, not denial just a different analysis from that pedalled by the Brextremists to hide their anti democratic stance.

    4. Strange conclusion Comrade JackT. As a Brextremist I shall endeavour to correct you…..it was all a part of the ‘Big Lie’ MSM propaganda machine to discredit Jeremy. Now, like Trump, REmoaners refuse to accept the democratic choice made & demand another Referendum to correct the stupidity of the riff-raff. Those of us who vote with our emotions rather than agree with you.

  7. Those Tweets by Carl Shobon should be added to the internal report as further evidence of how we were brought down by Red Tories
    Never Again

  8. 5 million of the electorate voted for party which was never formed before 2019 it won comprehensively 29 seats in the EU parliament. Previously I believed the Shadow Brexit secretary had some strategic information(wrong) which nullified the obvious conclusion that many were previously Labour voters. Farage withdrawing all of his candidates from GE19 at the behest of Trumpton allowed the Tory party to be the vanguard party for leaving the EU.
    Kier S is no strategist or mathematician and does not adapt to the changing circumstances of the political arena. Farage is talking about starting another party which will again haemorrhage labour votes.
    From an outsiders view it could be interpreted that the machinations of the right of the party could never allow a British government to express an opinion/vote at the UN security which might destabilise the status quo in the middle east or am I in wonderland Alice?.

    1. SM. i agree č your 1st paragraph. On the night as results started confirming that Starmer & Blair had succeeded in making Johnson take our victory, their acolytes were out in force immediately then for week claiming that Jeremy had damaged Labour so much that it would be two elections b4 we could win again. Jeremy’s PLP & Union allies were nowhere on MSM radio doing even the tiniest of pushbacks.

      So Starmer’s band have already underpromised. And don’t mind losing the election. Their priority is serving the accumulation of money and power. If the resources of the Middle East and militarily strategic location were elsewhere, then THAT is where we would establish another spot of a minority to dominate a majority with arms and horrific violence and moral depravity. Divide and Rule will be deployed as it has always been… with remarkable success. Why the unremitting success❓

      Because humans as a whole are NOT always rational as was assumed in Economics. Theoretical economist invented that assumption of human rationality in a DESPERATE attempt to mimic the social sciences. The assumption was promoted with the same passionate religious evidence free, fear rich, sight free to current emergencies, cataract + mirage rich induced rapture at an imagined … speculative hope.

      Thus one only needs to suggest to people that they belong to a religion, race, gender, group, and others are POTENTIAL threats. Then you could attach bleeding leeches to them and they could be distracted by that IMAGINED threat rather than the blood sucking leeches.

      Nothing can be transformed here or anywhere else by us if we persist in being directed by what we feel the MSM or Starmer would allow. That was the ever present concern re everything in “Left” groups in my CLP. It is exemplified in full by White Flag Man. He misses the logic. Surely if we are in charge yet tailor our actions by what we believe the MSM or Starmer would allow, then what hope that we will maintain resolve on anything when in government❓

      It is worth repeating – we need a good rest in a new place amongst new people … a totally engaging diversion – step back – refresh – and consider is there nothing we can change in our thinking / methods / priorities / focus / attention to sequence / relevance to the electorate here ➕➕➕/ respect for the exploited electorate here …
      focus … 🌹🌹🌹

    2. A good recap SM and a contra argument to those who say a new Socialist party would stand no chance of ever forming or being sustained .
      Fascist fartage came from nowhere and executed this task extremely successfully , then filled his party with I suspect many ex Labour voters as a result ( now proven by the noholdingback report ) and had fartage not done as his master bid him then no doubt there would be several Brexit MPs in Parliament now.

      What is perfectly clear and the greatest concern is that as Starmers NU Labour Party further abandons the working class with his Centrist shite , the likelihood of a real BNP style fascist party under Fartage becomes a reality and its MP take the seats of those Nu Labour Mk2 MPs .
      This effect can be clearly seen in the rise of Trump to power in USA , as the Centrist twats in the DNC enabled his rise to power and even right now there is still an internal battle going on with clear warnings from the socialists in the party NOT to further abandon the blue collar class or Trumpism will return in 4 yrs time with a ferocity hard to imagine .
      The Centrists in Labour have already successfully gifted to the UK the Tory Govt , part of the strategy to prevent a socialist Govt ever , and as can be seen is now busy at work doing the ground work to gift another 5 yrs in 2024 to the Tories
      No you are not in Alice’s Wonderland but the insanity of the Centrist world of the Blair/Starmerites with their ridiculous dreams of a Centrist utopia, it will never be anything other than free pass ticket for the Tories or worse fascists.

      1. Are you suggesting that Labour adopts Farage’s policies to attract the UKippers back and just how far should we go in appeasing those who have gone to the far right to tempt them back.
        The real problem is that Labour completely failed to do anything to build on its success in 2017 by getting out on the airwaves to sell Labour’s vision for the future and to normalise a fresh approach in the voters minds.

  9. SteveH, who or what has captured u❓ What have u been drinking❓ Or is this the latest ruse from head-office??? Two days in a row when SteveH repeats what i’v lamented repeatedly in essence –

    “The real problem is that Labour completely failed to do anything to build on its success in 2017 by getting out on the airwaves to sell Labour’s vision for the future and to normalise a fresh approach in the voters minds.”

    ESPECIALLY worth repeating a valuable nugget – ” by getting out on the airwaves to sell Labour’s vision for the future and to normalise a fresh approach in the voters minds.”

    Medal with tassels on – “normalise a fresh approach in the voters minds.”

    Well what can i say but 2020 is more than the craziest year – AGAIN i agree with SteveH on this specific issue.

    And BloJob’s Cummings may even depart by Christmas to devote more time to his eyesight. What a year?! What a year!? What A Year❓❓❓

  10. SteveH
    12/11/2020 at 2:16 pm

    Maria – The polling of Labour voters indicates that 40% supported JC’s suspension, 33% are indifferent and 26% oppose it.

    So the majority of labour voters don’t support JC’s suspension. And thats good for starmer? Those 33% could soon have their minds changed if he keeps behaving like a Fascist.

    1. Do you think Starmer can afford to loose support of 26% of labour voters and still win an election? I figured an ultraremainer knight of the realm dull as ditchwater failed dimwit lawyer was going to loose the election anyway. Since gettign rid of Corbyn now I am certain of it. It makes him look weak and pathetic, everyone – even those who dislike him – know Corbyn isnt a racist. They may not care that hes gone, but that doesn’t mean they don’t care about what Starmer did and how cheap it makes him look

      1. M – If all voters are included then the results are 58, 29 & 13 respectively.

    2. M – Or you could rephrase it as 73% think it was either the right thing to do or couldn’t give a toss. whilst only 26% oppose suspending Jeremy. I would contend that the ‘don’t knows’ are very unlikely to cause much of a problem for Starmer, they literally don’t have an opinion on this.

  11. SH, there was no chance of campaigning on what the members wanted, and in our case agreed more than once at CLP. This is because region produce the bog paper leaflets. They didn’t want to enthuse the electorate as then the LP may have had to do something different from the Tories.
    Like I said, we’re run by managers; paid officials who ‘just follow orders’ and have no intention of changing a system that gives them so much power and privilege, and money of course. It’s why they don’t like debate as they’d show themselves up for what they are.. And of course, as you yourself have pointed out, they make up the rules as they go along.

    1. I agree, There should of course be an underlying standard message but the individual policies should have added context to make them relevant at constituency level (or in LA elections to ward level). The message must be made to feel relevant to the individual so they realise that the policies are about their own and their communities futures. The bog standard national leaflets just make it look like we couldn’t be bothered to make the effort.

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