One simple graphic cuts through spin: why Labour must not go ‘full referendum’

Media spin focusing on idea of Labour losses to LibDems and comments from pro-referendum MPs but simple graphic shows a different reality

Comment

Inevitably, the media – and a coterie of remain-supporting MPs in and out of the Labour Party – have spun last night’s European Parliament election results to support a claim that results for pro-referendum parties, primarily the LibDems, mean Labour must abandon its manifesto commitment to enacting the 2016 Brexit result and commit to a ‘new referendum with remain on the ballot paper’.

But if a picture paints a thousand words, the one below speaks volumes. Taken from the BBC’s EU vote results page, it combines two colour-coded results maps, one showing the density of LibDem votes across the country – and the other the density of Brexit party support in the same election:

While last night was a relatively good night for the LibDems as one of the parties campaigning on a polar position, it’s clear at a glance that their heaviest support is concentrated in a few areas – primarily in the south and south-west, where they traditionally do well anyway.

By contrast, the map of Brexit party support covers almost all of England and Wales in a heavy blanket of dark blue-green, reflecting a high vote share.

And that blanket includes almost all of Labour’s traditional strongholds.

In the clearest of terms, this straightforward comparison shows that it would be electoral madness for Labour to set itself against its heartlands. But not only that, it would be wrong to do so.

The Brexit party performed well in Labour heartlands because Labour’s ‘hard remain’ MPs gifted Nigel Farage with something he should never be allowed – the moral high ground on democracy.

Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite who would never appeal to most working-class voters under normal circumstances. His appeal should have been limited entirely to disgruntled Tory voters and a small number of hard-right nationalists.

But Labour’s remain fanatics’ frequent – and knowingly damaging – media appearances misrepresenting Labour’s policy and claiming that ‘Labour is a remain party’ allowed Farage to present himself as defending democracy against an ‘elite’.

To working-class leave voters who voted leave because they were sick to death of feeling ignored and discounted – and who feel even more ignored and discounted by media and politicians looking to prevent the enactment of their vote – that message resonated and the map above shows the consequences.

Far from owning their responsibility for those consequences, centrist ‘remain ultras’ are – all too predictably – attempting to blame Labour’s leadership for them.

Corbyn and his core team continue to do the right thing in attempting to bring people together instead of dividing. It’s a message that will ‘cut through’ in a general election where it had no chance of doing so in the polarised ‘proxy referendum’ of the EU elections.

But only if it is not drowned out or reversed by those now attempting to wield the results of their misconduct as a stick to beat Corbyn and Labour into going ‘full remain’ or ‘full referendum’.

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136 responses to “One simple graphic cuts through spin: why Labour must not go ‘full referendum’

    • Yep, Quite true, Danny. As you say, good work by Skwawkbox doing vital debunking detail analysis of the DISTRIBUTION of the EU Parliament Election result – showing how vital it is for Labour NOT to become an unconditional Remain Party. So much clumsy bogus extrapolation has been going on, to suggest that the relative Remain v Leave vote totals “show a shift nationally to Remain compared to 2016” . Nonsense, the Turnout in 2016 was a huge 72.2% , the second biggest voting turnout in UK history – and in a context of ever-decreasing turnouts in Parliamentary and local elections in recent decades . The turnout in last week’s EU Parliament Elections (for largely unknown MEPs that may only be in post for months, in an unexpected election that most Leave voters didn’t think should even happen !) was only 37% . In an actual re-run EU Referendum all those (largely lower income) first time and seldom voting Leave voters who swung the 2016 Referendum against all polling expectations, would undoubtedly turn out again in droves. The huge Turnout differences alone between 2016 and now invalidate all the extrapolations being promoted by the Guardian and Labour anti Corbyn Right and Centre – never mind the issue of constituency by constituency VOTE DISTRIBUTION.

      I fear that the naive Left Liberal politics of so much of the Corbyn Momentumite support base means Labour might well adopt the electorally suicidal twin policies of PV and unconditional Remain. In which case a Tory Party led by the likes of that lying , but plausible, rogue , Boris Johnson, could easily declare on his first day as PM that “Austerity is really , really, over” and the NHS will get umpteen billions ASAP, and “freedom of Movement is over” – and before his bogus promises are exposed, call a snap General Election on a straight Brexit versus Remain battleground. The Tory press would suppress all discussion of Labour’s anti Austerity policy agenda, or the crimes of the 2010 to 2019 Tory government, and a simple binary “national sovereignty ” versus “vassalage to the German-led EU” would be the issue. The Tories might well win. In which case we can wave goodbye to our NHS and most other public services in a new deregulated extreme Tory globalist neoliberal wet-dream of a country. We are undoubtedly at a historical tipping point now – with the early hopes of the Corbyn wave transforming UK politics decisively to the Left in the balance.

      • jpenney 27/05/2019 at 3:45 pm

        “We are undoubtedly at a historical tipping point now – with the early hopes of the Corbyn wave transforming UK politics decisively to the Left in the balance.”

        I would be quite happy if we stood on a platform based on the 2017 manifesto that had been updated to reflect the policies that have been developed since its publication. Would you?.

      • What are you drivelling about, Steve H ? You are just a Lib Dem Troll not a Labour voter, so fuck of claiming you support our excellent 2017 Manifesto in any way. You claim to support it – but actually want Labour to adopt the electorally suicidal PV and Remain as policy. Our Conference Policy of 2018 affirms our 2017 Manifesto promise to respect the outcome of the Referendum, and PV is merely an option in our Conference motion . So take a hike troll. Go and get a better script from Alistair Campbell.

      • jpenney 27/05/2019 at 8:31 pm · ·

        ……… Our Conference Policy of 2018 affirms our 2017 Manifesto promise to respect the outcome of the Referendum, and PV is merely an option in our Conference motion .”

        Unfortunately you are mistaken the 2017 Manifesto only refers to Labour accepting the result, I guess that means whatever you want it to. The 2018 conference motion uses different wording.

        I have copied the first paragraph in full from both documents and I have highlighted the specific wording in both cases. My interpretation is that there has been a downgrading of the commitment between 2017 and 2018 plus there appears to be more qualification in the 2018 document You may choose to interpret it differently but there is absolutely no doubt – Labour does not promise to respect the outcome of the referendum in either of these documents.

        2017 Manifesto.
        NEGOTIATING BREXIT
        Labour accepts the referendum
        result and a Labour government
        will put the national interest first.

        We will prioritise jobs and living
        standards, build a close new
        relationship with the EU, protect
        workers’ rights and environmental
        standards, provide certainty
        to EU nationals and give
        a meaningful role to Parliament
        throughout negotiations.

        2018 Conference Motion
        “Conference welcomes Jeremy Corbyn’s determined efforts to hold the Tories to account for their disastrous negotiations. Conference accepts that the public voted to leave the EU, but when people voted to ‘take back control’ they were not voting for fewer rights, economic chaos or to risk jobs. Conference notes the warning made by Jaguar Land Rover on 11.9.18, that without the right deal in place, tens of thousands of jobs there would be put at risk.

        I hope this clarifies the situation for you.

      • SteveH, I’m afraid I don’t think that clarification is what JP wants.

      • ” You are just a Lib Dem Troll”

        I can never work out why Penny stamps ‘Nutter Rant’ as the header to his contributions by using tosser nonsense like this

        … unless he’s actually trying to take the piss out of the left by caricaturing barminess.

  1. The Remain argument is economic based ,whilst the Brexit argument is Politics based ! As Marx would say, the Economic determines the Political ! So what must be got across to voters is that Labour will Remain for jobs and wages and cost of living and homes, tuition etc and all the nitty gritty that’s important for people but gets out from under the bureaucratic policies of Brussels ! No unregulated Free Movement !

    An amicable divorce !

  2. “Wishing … just wishing….”

    I don’t blame you for trying to conjure up some pretty crap reasoning based on two graphics with disparate bases.

    But … lets stick to the hard reality. The ‘Remain’ parties sucked up Labour voters. Big time, leaving the emperor with few clothes left.

    Behind it all – all the voting figures – lies the simple fact that Brexit is a crap idea – a right wing wheeze that will knacker any attempt at progressive politics.

    Sine when has it been a good idea for Labour to adopt right wing policies to placate the conservatives. It’s known as ‘triangulation’. Not a good look.

    • Reality is good. Let’s stick to it:
      .
      Pro BREXIT
      31.7 + 8.7 + 3.6 = 44
      Brexit / tory / ukip
      .
      Pro REMAIN
      18.6 + 11.1 + 3.4 + 2.8 = 35.9
      Libdem, Green, Scotnat, chuk
      .
      You cannot, if you are honest, put labour in either group, as all the evidence shows labour voters are pretty evenly divided.Even if you choose to dishonestly tweak labour, you’ll still end up 52/48 or worse.
      .
      Another referendum? Best of five?

      • “You cannot, if you are honest, put labour in either group”

        … so take out the Tories for the other group. Parallel – if you’re honest 🙂

        The simple fact is nothing but a proper referendum will settle the percentages argument.

        But beyond that, there’s the incontravertible fact that Brexit, like austerity, is simply a dumb idea from the extreme right with nothing to recommend it – which is the real issue. Its original deceptive arguments have been comprehensively destroyed.

      • Piffle.
        Tories are 95%+ for Brexit.
        And don’t pretend otherwise.

      • heenan73 27/05/2019 at 4:15pm

        The third referendum we put before [Conservative] voters and members was Remain vs No Deal – and it reveals quite how strong support for the latter is at the Tory grassroots. Faced with those two options, the electorate as a whole splits 45% Remain – 35% No Deal (with the rest either saying they wouldn’t vote, didn’t know, or refusing to answer). Current Tory voters split 27% Remain – 63% No Deal.
        But that’s as nothing to Conservative Party members: faced with a referendum offering just two choices – Remain or No Deal – some 76% of Conservative Party members would plump for No Deal.

        https://esrcpartymembersproject.org/2019/01/04/no-deal-is-better-than-mays-deal/

      • “Piffle”

        aka ‘I don’t agree’

        … but that’s beside the point – another vote is, as you’ve shown, the only way forward now.

      • Piffle means ‘nonsense’,.
        You can’t agree or disagree on facts.
        Well, I can’t. You obviously can.
        you seem to be supporting Steve’s idea of democracy – selectively quoting opinion polls and making things up as you go along.
        Doesn’t add to the debate at all. Really. It just doesn’t.

      • heenan73 28/05/2019 at 1:20 pm

        “Piffle means ‘nonsense’,.
        You can’t agree or disagree on facts.
        Well, I can’t. You obviously can.”

        What facts did you provide above, what is the source for the ‘facts’ you quoted.?

        “you seem to be supporting Steve’s idea of democracy – selectively quoting opinion polls and making things up as you go along.”

        First of all if you’d bothered to open your mind and eyes you would have seen that the evidence I provided was not from a random poll but from a long-term academic study (the LSE has also produced similar research). You should also have noted that, unlike you, I provided a link to my source material so that readers could reassure themselves that I was not either mis-quoting or quoting out of context.

        Doesn’t add to the debate at all. Really. It just doesn’t.

        On the contrary. I think that challenging what looks like erroneous unevidenced ‘facts’ with evidence is indeed of value. On reflection don’t you think you would have advanced the debate better if you had responded along the lines of either.

        “This is were I got my figures from.- (link to website)
        OR
        “Thanks for pointing this out there is some interesting stuff in the link you gave (plus whatever you wished to add)

  3. Remain is the sense to know that we have the best deal possible with maybe a few tweaks. Leave is an emotional reaction to jam tomorrow pushed by Farage, Robinson and all the other far right, racist, snake oil salesmen, given assistance by the Little Englanders on the far left of our Party. I speak as a 100% supporter of Jeremy Corbyn and on the firm left of the Party.

    • Leave is anything but “jam tomorrow”. Leave recognises that if we leave without a deal there will be 3 years of recession, followed by steep, fast growth as new trading partnerships are formed. Meanwhile, the European economy is flat lining and predicted to keep on a downward trend and traders don’t fancy the Euro. This was lucky for us as it softened the hit on the pound caused by Brexit uncertainty.
      There are dangers of course, not least a Tory government negotiating deals that rely on us deregulating and running a gig economy. However, we will follow the example of very fast initial growth that comes with new market opportunity, while Europe declines, interest rates rise and debts accumulate.

      • ” there will be 3 years of recession, followed by steep, fast growth as new trading partnerships are formed.”

        Is that in Grimm’s Fairy Tales? Or some other fantasy collection. Because it obviously is based on a totally fictional idea of the process of trade negotiations – or the changed power relationships as the UK doffs its subservient cap to all and sundry whilst dealing with a sructurally weak economy.

      • Brexit be an unmitigated disaster, getting worse as the years pass and foreign investors pull out. Some won’t be immediate, but few if any motor manufacturers will be here in 10 years, going of one by one as their production lines need retooling or closing. Similar in other industries. 50000 jobs will disappear in the City as banks slide over to Frankfurt.
        .
        We know all that. But it’s going to happen. Live in denial or fight for the best Brexit options.

  4. This conference motion will shortly be doing the rounds

    The ‘Stop Brexit, Transform Britain’ motion in full:

    The real division in society is not between those who voted Leave and Remain, but between the many and the few. Brexit is poisoning politics and stopping us from addressing the issues that matter to people.

    We need a general election to deliver a radical Labour government.

    If the UK leaves the EU, Brexit does not end. Instead, we face years of negotiations and trade deals that deregulate our economy in the interests of the few, making it much harder to deliver our radical manifesto.

    Brexit is a Tory project, and Labour opposes it. It would mean a victory for the nationalist right, and is a threat to our rights, jobs, NHS, public services and the fight against climate change.

    We will answer insecurity and exploitation with hope and solidarity to bring the country together. We will rebuild communities with investment, expand common ownership, boost wages and union rights, and challenge the narratives of the nationalist right. Free movement is a workers’ right which we will defend.

    The Leave vote is more than three years old, and there is no clear democratic mandate for any Brexit settlement. The democratic imperative now is for the people to have the final say. Labour will back Remain in that public vote.

    Labour is an internationalist party, with a duty to challenge the far right. We will campaign for a Europe-wide Green New Deal, levelling up of wages, democratising European institutions, ending Fortress Europe, and an international strategy to tax the rich and corporations.

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/pro-remain-labour-activists-party-conference_uk_5ce6e8bee4b0a2f9f28bb0d6

    • Or the shortened version:
      “Let’s shut the stable door now that the horse has bolted”
      Brexit is going to happen. Retreading arguments that should have been touted in 2016 will not change that. The only rational question now – as Labour Policy has long recognised – is “What kind of Brexit?”.
      .
      And while the Labour-hating coalition obsesses about ever more votes, and try to bounce Labour into ignoring its members, the tories are setting up the worst of all Brexits.
      .
      Stop trying bully Labour and wake up to the tories.

      • heenan73 27/05/2019 at 2:36 pm

        Labour is a democratic member led party so it will be the members that decide.

      • They have already decided.
        And if you think they’ll change they mind to please a Labour hating coalition, I suspect you’ll be disappointed.
        But knock yourself out. If that’s what the Libdems want. But do be sure you tell the party who they’re doing it for.

      • “They have already decided.
        And if you think they’ll change they mind to please a Labour hating coalition, I suspect you’ll be disappointed.”

        That’s what’s known formally as an ‘arse about tit’ argument’.

        There has never been a formal consultation of the membership on this contentious issue (no – Conference is not the same). Claims about a referendum require a referendum to guide the policy.

        Don’t blame the LibDems – they are simply doing what they do, and exploiting Labour’s profound weakness on the issue. Stable doors? – this one was left open by the owner.

      • Are you and Steve joined at the hip? You seem to be trolling as a team.
        Which is fine, but could you get togethjer and come up with a rational argument, not a bunch of lager-lout drivel?
        I thank you.

    • Free movement isn’t a workers right, its a means of achieving economic growth, year on year in rich countries with aging populations. It widens the wealth gap, creates local unemployment, keeps wages down and only helps the elite in this country and Germany in the Eurozone because while the German economy runs at full steam with a captive market to supply, it also exports its unemployment to the weaker countries.
      Free movement is the heart of neoliberalism. It’s incredibly damaging to the working class. Whoever proposes such a motion is no Labour supporter.

      • Indeed, lundiel. For socialists it has always been a key aim to attempt to challenge and modify and where possible replace the chaotic profit-driven amoral dynamics of the capitalist market with Left-led democratic economic planning. Replacing, or ameliorating, the free play of unfettered market forces is at the heart of the difference ideologically and practically between socialists and even well-meaning Left liberals. A state seeking to operate an economy in the interests of its majority of citizens, rather than a small capitalist class , needs to intervene directly to challenge the free market movement of capital, goods and services , AND LABOUR SUPPLY. There is no genuine “freedom” in the working classes of our globe being turned into a rootless migrant labour force – forced to follow the fickle profit-seeking shifts in the labour supply needs of the market.

        Middle class Left liberals love to claim their moral superiority in supporting unlimited movement of people – when they really support , firstly their right to visit the European ski slopes and cultural centres, whenever they want, and secondly, get Polish/Rumanian/Bulgarian nannies and plumbers at rock bottom rates, and ultra cheap Uber taxis, and starvation wage delivery drivers for getting their Amazon goods to their homes. The latter from Amazon warehouses supplied with zero hour minimum wage workers. All these precariat jobs depend intrinsically on the existence of an EU-wide unlimited labour supply . A socialist government would PLAN future labour supply needs, and relate this to the training needs of our citizens , and local hospital and schooling provision. That so few Labour Party members seem even to understand the centrality of even mildly interventionist 1960’s Harold Wilson era “indicative planning” , as a vital tool of social democratic economic regeneration , demonstrates just how 30 years of neoliberalism has robbed the “Left” even of the ability to envisage a society beyond the tyranny of the capitalist market.

    • “ending Fortress Europe, and an international strategy to tax the rich and corporations.”

      You can’t polish a turd by putting a shiny end on it.
      You can’t end fortress Europe either. I despise the way economic liberals always point to strategies of taxing the rich (which are never implemented) and pat themselves on the back.

  5. These maps clearly show that while the leave vote has stayed rock solid the remain vote has softened.

      • I have come to that conclusion by using intelligence and deductive reasoning.

        Note to reader: the rapid speed with which SteveH responds to other people’s comments proves he is a troll. But you already knew that, right.

        Skwawkbox readers are intelligent people. The fact that trolls like SteveH take the readers for fools demonstrates what toxic timewasting individuals they are.

      • Internal Affairs 27/05/2019 at 2:45 pm

        “I have come to that conclusion by using intelligence and deductive reasoning.

        “Skwawkbox readers are intelligent people”.which is why I was rather hoping you would be able to explain the deductive reasoning that led you to your conclusions.

      • Note to reader: the rapid speed with which SteveH responds to other people’s comments proves he is a troll.

        Should read: ”The rapid speed with which SteveH responds to demand other people explain their comments; combined with his shithouse evasion and obfuscation of ANY & EVERY question put to him, proves he is – undoubtedly – a gobshite”

      • Steve, in other words from IA, “Look! a squirrel!!”

      • Nah. You just want to tie him up in a nonsensical argument in order to close down the thread.

      • Steve isn’t a troll. He’s a Libdem troll. Accuracy is important in these troubled times.

  6. This is why there should be an immediate shadow cabinet reshuffle where Thornberry, Watson & Starmer get shown the door (and maybe have the whip withdrawn for good measure)!

    McDonnell should also be put on notice of some sort. His remarks today suggest preparations to make a move on the leadership…

      • This from the guy who, judging from last night’s thread (“Thornberry Emerges…”) left his last comment at 3.59am and was back at his desk commenting at 8.50am this morning.

        And you say I’m the nutter!

      • timfrom 27/05/2019 at 3:56 pm

        Since I had a minor stroke I have experienced difficulty with regularising my sleep patterns. Hence the odd hours.

      • timfrom 27/05/2019 at 9:38 pm

        Well that explains a lot…

        Not really, the only thing it explains is my unusual sleep patterns.

    • F. me : This is somewhere beyond the outer reaches of La La Land.

      Is 14% too large a portion of the vote to manage in order to reinforce the insulated prejudices that our support is turning away from in droves?

  7. An article whose conclusions it is hard to disagree with,so I’m not going to.

  8. You can forget about a labour govt from now on.

    The self-centred remain dickheads have sold every real socialist down the river for their own little bunce. You utter thundercunts. I sincerely hope every one of you die slowly of scurvy.

    • Panic not.
      Labour will bounce back, as will, tragically, the Tories. If anyone gets a long term boost from the miniref, it’ll be the Greens, who at least looked like the rational end of denial.

  9. Farage and Tommy Robinson occupy the vacuum created for the media’s / politicians’ own historical Frankenstein monster, created many decades ago on behalf of the ruling class. To protect their stolen wealth.

    It prowls the landscape, seeking isolation points, then drives wedges into the cracks, dividing working people against each other. These are uncomplicated working people, many of them dumbed down, who possess absolutely no sense of their own latent power, were it ever to be harnessed and organised.

    The threat of Leave, the threat of Remain, the racist, banner headlines, the hostile environment, the institutionally racist Tory party, were all food and drink to the greedy monster. It thrived on the constant sustenance of the scare stories.

    And now it’s momentum is gathering. The blinkered masses haven’t a clue what they’re enabling with their votes.

    Socialism under Corbyn, which held so much promise as recently as a year ago now withers on the vine, as the leader capitulates and appeases in any and all directions, be it antisemitism, be it the fifth column Blairites, be it the demands of the billionaire, tax avoider-owned mainstream media.

    And people like me see alleged racists. No, not Farage, not Robinson, although the stench is obviously there and it will linger, but Labour councillors and party members who – despite being reported – have never been investigated by Jenny Formby, and continue to be protected and to receive succour and a safe haven.

    I wonder how many there are up and down the country? We shall never know, because reputation protection has elbowed its way to the forefront at all costs. DON’T LET ANYBODY KNOW WE’VE GOT RACISTS IN THE LABOUR PARTY, is the unspoken mission statement an motivation.

    I hope a powerful individual reads this and puts their foot down, BUT sadly it’s going to be a culture thing and you don’t cut out and cure that type of cancer overnight.

    I stopped voting Labour for a quarter of a century, mid-Kinnock, returning in 2017, but already I feel another period of abstinence coming on. Maybe one day, a total of 50 years of my life will have been spent wandering in the wilderness, with nothing to vote for.

    And the most deep-seated no-go-area with the Frankenstein monster is that its creators, unlike the dignified Doctor of the novel will never have the guts to acknowledge or blame themselves for its creation. They’ll stand back and with a string of weasel words, point the finger at the monster itself; the Farages, the Robinsons, the Kippers.

    And around it all goes again, this circus, this charade, this theatre, as trotted out before, ad nauseam, all the way down the decades.

    • Wirral In It Together 27/05/19 at 3:22 pm

      Is it capitulation and/or appeasement if Jeremy listens to the majority of the membership and lives up to his statement that it is the members who decide policy, not me.

      • Okay, but coupled with the hands off, leave well alone position on party racists, the policy is another nail in the coffin. I think it’s fair comment to say he hasn’t really made his mark and stamped his authority as leader when all’s said and done.

      • “the majority” may not be as easily persuaded as Steve thinks. They don’t call him Walter Mitty for nothing.

    • Shithouse.

      That is all you ever were. May the extreme right find your address. 😉

    • I’m sorry you got bested by such a superb display of incisive wit and inelligence, Steve. It must be hard to bear such rapier-like defeat from a giant of socialist advocacy 🙂

      • RH, you’ll need to add a lot more emojis to avoid the sticky one taking you seriously.

      • Listen bollocks, we all know that’ll be exactly your reaction if labour are beaten in a GE

        You’re all lib-dem tossers at best, fuck knows at worst

  10. I’m sorry but you can’t make your point from that one graphic alone. There are other interpretations that are just as valid. So you will need to find other evidence from the results. I suggest that actually the situation is more complex. Just look at the Labour proportion of the vote across the different EU Referendum result categories.

    • The article is best politely forgotten – Sqwawkbox is at the opposite end of the spectrum from ‘truth-telling statistical genius’.

      (Starting hints : The maps hide a wealth of contradictory detail and no-one with any statistical nous would compare the LibDem result directly with that of the Brexit Party)

  11. Labour’s position in the referendum was Remain – this was supported by the vast majority of Labour MPs, over 200, not a ‘coterie’ It was and is o the position of the vast majority of Labour members. Sqwawkbox presistently pretends that Leave is the majority position of the PLP and the only acceptable postion for the Party as a whole. This is garbage.

    • Yes you are absolutely right and the Skwawkbox obsession over denial of this reality has really shaken my confidence in this really good and otherwise trustworthy alternative news site. Have you all totally forgotten that Jeremy Corbyn campaigned for “Remain and Reform?” I truly believe Corbyn is a man of strong principals and I am convinced that he would not have advocated for a position that he didn’t genuinely support.

      My main concern is over basic fairness and I would like to hear from those ranting over the “Will of the People” why it was acceptable to exclude all those who had the most to lose from Brexit? EU nationals who have lived in the UK for years, settled, married and raised children here while working hard and paying UK taxes; they were denied the right to vote in the EU referendum. These EU Citizens, who now risk having their families torn apart, represent a large block of potential remain voters who were gerrymandered out of the referendum vote.

      The Tories promised in their manifesto to lift the fifteen year limit on voting in UK elections that is imposed on those who have moved overseas. This pledge was ignored despite the important implications for this group of UK Citizens, most of them former UK tax payers, who would probably have voted heavily for remain. Both of these groups were also disenfranchised in this latest vote. A significant number of EU Citizens were blocked from voting at UK polling stations on Thursday and overseas voters were outraged over not receiving their postal votes in time. This injustice was inflicted on those who had every right to vote in the 2019 EU elections; it might just have been incompetence, but it could represent more deliberate gerrymandering.

      Many sixteen and seventeen year olds are also tax payers and should have been allowed to vote just as was permitted in the Scottish Referendum and for the same reason, but the Tories continued their track record of screwing our youth. Most of these young people were strongly inclined to vote remain, but will now have to live with the consequences of the Brexit vote for the longest time into the future. As if the Tories haven’t enacted enough toxic laws to cripple the opportunities of the next generation. Why would Labour support such an unfair burden on the young people they hope will vote Labour in future? They might just vote Green.

      I still hope we will get a chance to oust the Tories in a General Election, but if the Labour Party want to win they must acknowledge this grotesque injustice and offer a confirmatory vote. I hope Labour would snatch that Article 50 notification back so that we are no longer threatened by any whim of the EU. At that point the new government should set up two, cross party committees, with appropriate regional representation, to devise a solid workable consensus plan for implementation of Brexit and an alternatively pitch for requirements that might persuade the UK public to vote remain. If we were to drop the “cake and eat it” demand and collaborate with the EU to target the mutual benefit of both UK and EU Citizens, I am sure the EU would welcome this new mature negotiating stance.

      At a point when we have two universally acceptable and completely viable alternatives to choose from then, and only then, should there be a confirmatory referendum vote. If this negotiating period was well organized it should not postpone Brexit any longer than our currently agreed transition period; it would offer greater clarity and certainty over the outcome that remain voters might consider supporting. We would have time to set reasonable regulations to safeguard the vote from external interference and set penalties for fraud, overspend and distributing fake information, so that the public had confidence in the final result.

      The confirmatory vote could not repeat the injustice of excluding the three groups who were disenfranchised last time. If these measures were taken then people would be ready to accept the result and know that we were not blundering forward into an unknown disaster. The so called “Will of the People” was in fact the will of those who were not cheated out of their legitimate right to vote. I was not excluded from voting last time, but millions were and I strongly believe in justice and fairness; this demands decent preparation, precautions and a fully inclusive vote.

      Of course if you are so blinded by selfishness that you think screwing over millions of people is perfectly acceptable then I will not expect you to support this valid point. My argument in favour of a confirmatory vote is quite apart from the massive lies told, the external interference, dodgy internet practices and dubious financing: just on the disenfranchisement issue this was not a legitimate vote. If you disagree, please do attempt to explain such an indefensible rational.

      • Good post Kim, though I’m doubtful that we’ll get to the position you suggest. Tories have fucked up so much that I doubt that anything other than leave with no deal/remain binary choice is on the cards.

    • “Labour’s position in the referendum was Remain – this was supported by the vast majority of Labour MPs, over 200, not a ‘coterie’ It was and is o the position of the vast majority of Labour members. Sqwawkbox presistently pretends that Leave is the majority position of the PLP and the only acceptable postion for the Party as a whole”
      Arguably the majority of the PLP are ‘remain’, but there is no evidence – let alone reliable evidence – that remain is the view of the ‘vast majority’ of members. There just isn’t.
      Looking at many claims and counter claims, I’d estimate it at about 50/50. But yes, that’s no better than a reasonably informed guess.
      ‘Vast majority’ for remain? No. that’s simply wishful thinking. Had it been true, it would have been reflected in party policy.

      • You are overly impressed with the word ‘academic’ I fear.
        It’s a survey of 1034 out of several hundred thousand. We are not given details of the geographic spread or method of selection.
        It is no better than YouGov or anyone else doing a survey, and conceivably much worse, as the organisers don’t have the experience of YouGov.
        But none of that matters.
        Jeremy Corbyn, the man you hate so much, does not make policy on the basis of opinion polls, dressed up in academia or otherwise.
        Jeremy Corbyn does not make policy at all.
        Conference does. On the basis of real votes by real members.
        I know you have a deep love of statistics – let’s face it, you can always cherry pick the one you want and ignore the rest – but that is not how politics works in the real world. It really isn’t.

      • heenan73 28/05/2019 at 4:40 pm

        You are overly impressed with the word ‘academic’ I fear.
        Not at all, however I do give them far more credibility than your completely unevidenced assertions.

        It is no better than YouGov or anyone else doing a survey, and conceivably much worse, as the organisers don’t have the experience of YouGov.
        Perhaps you should read up on their methodology before making yourself look silly and ill-informed.

        Jeremy Corbyn, the man you hate so much,
        I have voted for Jeremy on both occasions. I quite like wearing my ‘Love Corbyn Hate Brexit’ t-shirt.

        [Jeremy] does not make policy on the basis of opinion polls, dressed up in academia or otherwise. .
        How do you know? It would be absolutely ridiculous to claim they don’t take into account public opinion when deciding on policy and strategy. It would be beneficial to the party if his strategy took more account of the members wishes.

        I know you have a deep love of statistics – let’s face it, you can always cherry pick the one you want and ignore the rest – but that is not how politics works in the real world. It really isn’t.
        Well I’ll admit that I have a lot of respect for the evidence, particularly when all the evidence has consistently given similar results.
        There is just one small teensy weensy problem with your assertions. – I don’t need to cherry-pick. Literally all the polls, academic research and recent elections have consistently produced similar results. FFS even the poll commissioned by Leave Means Leave indicates the same.

        However if you have any credible evidence that supports your assertions then please, please post it.

      • I see you managed to quote me selectively, choosing to ignore the bit about conference making policy, not JC. [Sigh]
        Rather undermine your case for listening to the members, but then you don’t want him listening to members who disagree with you, do you?
        Did you find who paid for that ‘research’, BTW?

      • Andrew Heenan 28/05/2019 at 6:09 pm

        “I see you managed to quote me selectively, choosing to ignore the bit about conference making policy, not JC. “
        I’m not trying to hide anything, your OP is just above so it is readily accessible.

        “Rather undermine your case for listening to the members, but then you don’t want him listening to members who disagree with you, do you?”
        Not at all, it looks rather like you are desperately trying to distract attention from their own ignorance. It is self evident that JC has a great deal of influence on policy and he is also responsible for the interpretation and implementation of that policy. Your augment is nonsense.

        “Did you find who paid for that ‘research’, BTW?
        I don’t need to, I’m not the one making baseless allegations.

        Is it getting warm yet?

  12. Excellent piece Skwawky!
    If Labour accepts the original Referendum result and supports a socialist Brexit then it could have a possible landslide.
    If the Remainer/2nd PV political niaives get their way then the Corbyn dream is over.
    And Labour becomes like Pasok and the German Social Denocratic Party – soulless.
    Interregnum
    ‘As the old order, Neo-Liberalism, is dying.
    But the new cannot yet be born.
    Perhaps we are all being tested.
    And only the stars will ride the storm!’

  13. I do feel that just like the many of those first written on this site that this piece will stand out in the test of time. Especially this paragraph

    Corbyn and his core team continue to do the right thing in attempting to bring people together instead of dividing. It’s a message that will ‘cut through’ in a general election where it had no chance of doing so in the polarised ‘proxy referendum’ of the EU elections.

    At some point we will have to agree a way forward to decide our future relationship with the EU and the direction of the UK.

  14. We must recognise that we have Little Englanders in the Labour Party as well and unfortunately, being on the left myself, it seems they also occupy this space. Corbyn’s strength is also a weakness in so far as he wants to bring us all together – it cannot be done.

    Those on the left who support Brexit, even if they say it is only to honour the referendum, are empowering Farage, a narcissistic, racist, far right snake oil salesman backed by billionaires.

    Parliament is in deadlock and there is only one way to go forward, which is to put the choice back to the people. The original vote for lots of reasons is now stale and it is perfectly democratic to ask the electorate to affirm a decision which they took three years ago.

  15. When are just one of you pro remainers gonna provide cold hard evidence that the overwhelming majority of labour VOTERS want a 2nd ref?

    The rest of us are tiredof your bluster – we want evidence.

    The toerags have something like 160k members. they are not so fucking idiotic to claim the overwhelming majority of toerag VOTERS want it one way or the other.

    They understand that if they went the one way (2nd ref) they’d be deserted by several MILLION of their voters at a GE.

    Take the fucking blinkers off you dozy, usless bleeders.

    • The Toffee, I don’t often reply to you because I’m not sure how capable you are of calm and considered thought. Anyway, it’s worth a try. Let’s say for arguments sake we (insert your own expletive description) accept the results of the referendum. Parliament is deadlocked and cannot come to an agreement on the way forward therefore what is your solution?

      I know I’m going to regret this ☹️

      • Then we have a general election until there’s a majority govt to carry it through.

        It really isn’t that hard, is it?

        That said if it was a labour majority you’d still fucking whinge about us leaving the eu. Nevermnd the #1 objective of a labour govt.

      • The Toffee, ok. so how do we get to a GE? Is Boris or who ever takes over from May going to give us a GE when they know they still have two years to run in office? try again.

      • *Sighs again*

        As long as there’s in-fighting amongst the toerags (dont kid yourselves that any of them will bring harmony & unity as long as the eu question exists – it’s always been the bane of their existence) then their ‘authority’ wanes.

        They’ll more or less be forced to call a GE to get a mandate IF you lot within labour can just get it into your dense crania that the majority of this country want brexit done and dusted.

        Compromise and discipline will win admirers. Your incessant squealing & demanding has turned the electorate off voting labour.

        Just about every vox pop on every channel has had joe public saying so.

        That’s on YOUR toes, not leavers’

      • The Toffee (597) 27/05/2019 at 7:59 pm · ·

        “As long as there’s in-fighting amongst the toerags (dont kid yourselves that any of them will bring harmony & unity as long as the eu question exists – it’s always been the bane of their existence) then their ‘authority’ wanes.

        Unfortunately what you’ve failed to grasp is that the majority of the disharmony on here is not us fighting amongst ourselves but you fighting us.

        You are the one that is a problem.

      • The Toffee:

        “They’ll more or less be forced to call a GE to get a mandate IF you lot within labour can just get it into your dense crania that the majority of this country want brexit done and dusted.”

        “They’ll more or less …..”

        That says it all, wishful thinking!

        “the majority of this country want brexit done and dusted.”

        Yes they may do but not by Brexiting as the polls have just shown. Including Labour, more voted to Remain than Leave. (Labour was a Remain Party in the referendum)

      • Jack T 27/05/2019 at 8:18 pm · ·

        ”That says it all, wishful thinking!”

        Got a better plan? Because squealing ‘2nd referendum’ hasn’t worked, has it?

        —————————————-

        SteveH 27/05/2019 at 8:28 pm · ·

        ”You are the one that is a problem.”

        ‘You’. Singular. You make clear your problem is with me on a personal level by that admission.

        Sound – I’ve no problem whatsoever with that. I dislike you (as well as your politics) intensely, and freely confess as much.

        But your reason is because I have owned you on each and every thread ovr the last week or so since you started pissing me off; knowing full well i will not back down fromyour utter garbage after I admitted I’ll always rise to the bait.

        But it’s enough to have proved you incapable of answering a question, and showing you up so much as you appear to be under the influence of mind-altering drugs.

        weirdo.

      • The Toffee (597) 27/05/2019 at 8:57 pm

        I have no animosity towards you as a person I just think your behavior is reprehensible. If it helps you get by then you are welcome to convince yourself black is white for all I care . Its no skin off my nose.

    • The Toffee (597) 27/05/2019 at 7:00 pm

      The rest of us is that a bit like a ‘royal we’ because you appear to be a very lonely voice.

      • Do I, dickhead?

        Gonna provide evidence of that? Oh, you can’ t because you’re full of shit as well as being an abject coward what doesn’t ever answer questions?

        Fucking joke.

      • The Toffee (597) 27/05/2019 at 7:35 pm

        You seem confused. I asked you a question and made an observation. There is nothing to evidence apart from the fact that these events took place and as you’ve already acknowledged the events took place by reading my post and replying to it I think the matter is closed.

      • There is nothing to evidence apart from the fact that these events took place and as you’ve already acknowledged the events took place by reading my post and replying to it I think the matter is closed.

        What. The. Absolute. Fuck. Is .That?

        Weirdo.

      • ‘You’re a lone voice and nobody agrees with you’

        ‘Oh aye? Prove it then?’

        ‘Well, you read my post – that’s proof’

        Yes folks, this is the weird, weird world of steve h. That’s when he’s not comparing himself to those that gave us the nhs & welfare state, mind.

        Or strangely attempting to answer a question you didn’t ask with a question he asked; and convincing himself you asked his question and that’s his answer.

        Leave the mushrooms alone, lad.

    • “evidence that the overwhelming majority of labour VOTERS want a 2nd ref?”

      The majority of voters as a whole didn’t want the last referendum – the whole EU issue was way down on the list of concerns. The problem is that the Tories’ cunning wheeze has left the country in the position where the only possible route out of this unholy mess is by continuing the process.

      • ”The majority of voters as a whole didn’t want the last referendum – the whole EU issue was way down on the list of concerns”

        Said with no proof whatsoever. Just like most everything else.

        I’ll remind you for the cunteenth time dicky, about camoron’s eu ‘exploits’ that led to the toerags promising a 2nd ref after their ‘reform from within’ strategy proved to be a load of bollocks.

        Trying to rewrite history once again. It’s as if your 37% convinced nobody….Oh, hang on….It didn’t.

        And you’re not now. So just stop it.

  16. We could transform the UK and World but perhaps some in Labour are so poorly read and lack an understanding of socialist international economics that they could blow it.
    They think the EC is internationalist when it is in reality a supranational structure which serves Neo-Liberal capital and this reality needs to hit young between the eyes!
    Like the Right Wing Barbarians in Labour some of you want crumbs (via the Neo-Liberal EC) for working people when most of us want the table – The World for diverse working people.
    Neo-Liberalism has had its 40 years of dominance mainly because many on the left forgot how to dream and with a new internationalism via independent socialist nation states with imagination perhaps we can start dreaming again.

  17. Toffee: Just about every vox pop on every channel has had joe public saying so.
    Again someone relying on MM for their information. They are misinformed deliberately.

    • ‘Again someone relying on MM for their information. They are misinformed deliberately.’

      Yeah, but of course you’re right, because they didn’t have anyone saying they had no clue whatsoever about labour’s stance, did they?

      Perhaps they couldn’t find anyone with that viewpoint, so they all just persuaded all sorts of people from Land’s End to John o’ Groats to say it anyway?

      [youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ttsa4__Ewk&w=545&h=409%5D

  18. One thing that’s occurred to me is that if the Brexit party have ANY cause to fight the next General Election (ie: if there’s ANY prospect of another referendum or more foot-dragging on leaving), then, as these results show, the Labour party as we know it is over. We could never beat them. Nobody could.

    A Brexit party in government. Prime Minister Farage in No.10. Is that what you want, SteveH, RH, Jack T et al?

    I rather think it is…

    • Oh Timfrom.
      The Brexit Party are One Trick Ponies and if we offer a progressive Bexit then we offer better in the same field.
      We can also expose the Brexit Party as the Neo-Liberals they ars re their privatisation of the NHS and terrible US trade deals etc. which will bring us Trump and Farage’s chlorinated chicken etc.
      They can be beaten politically.

      • “progressive Bexit”

        A contradiction in terms. Increasing poverty isn’t progressive.

    • … so your ‘socialist’ plan is simply to placate the extreme right??

      “We could never beat them.”

      Seems like we ‘trolls’ (aka the majority of members) have more faith in the Labour Party than you.

      • You and Steve do not constitute a majority – and if your names were known, you certainly wouldn’t be members of the labour Party for long (if you ever were).

        Timfrom is, of course, mistaken, but sadly we won’t be able to test that without a GE – and that looks pretty unlikely for now. I can’t see any tory leader allowing that before Brexit is a done no-deal. Not that they fear remainers; but Nigel must be increasing the wearing of brown trousers in the tory party. They want to merge with his party on their terms, not his, when it’s all over.

      • heenan73 28/05/2019 at 1:31 pm

        and if your names were known, you certainly wouldn’t be members of the labour Party for long (if you ever were).

        Where’s the evidence? Perhaps it would help ‘your case’ if you could provide some actual examples of where I’ve broken the rules.

      • I am not making a case; we both know how you hate the Labour Party, its policies and its leadership. We both know that there’s ample evidence among your many troll posts.
        As we both have this knowledge, I see no value in searching past posts to allow you endless nitpicking. Why on earth would I enable further trolling?
        And how could that ever deserve my time and effort? More important, how could it ever help the Labour Party?
        Anonymous trolls are the curse of the Internet. But they do provide an endless source of amusement.

      • Heenan, do you realise how ridiculous this LibDem trolls nonsense makes you look?
        It completely undermines the force of any argument you try to make.

      • Heenan, there’s no evidence at all in support of your suggestions and plenty against it. Plenty of longstanding LP members have similar views.

      • I don’t think any loyal Labour party member would have the slightest difficulty in distinguishing my calling out of trolls, and the trolls’ constant whining about Labour policy and attempting to undermine the leadership.
        I’m not sure how you are so sure you speak for so many, but thinking is one thing, attacking the party day in, day out, is something else.
        Would you defend Tom Watson as enthusiastically? Please don’t say yes.

      • The self delusion is strong here!
        ‘I think I’m right so everybody must be of the same opinion as me’ is not a sensible argument to make.
        London is a Labour stronghold. We lost huge numbers of voters there to clear remain parties. Why do you say those people agree with you?
        Having a belief does not make it a fact

      • If you respond to what I actually said, I can better reply.
        It wasn’t me claiming to know what other members thought, it was you.
        “Plenty of longstanding LP members have similar views”
        London, alas, is only one part of the UK.

        I notice in your peculiar attack, you didn’t respond at all to what I actually said.

        No surprises there. Bored now. I’m out. I’ll leave you Remain Ultras to congratulate each other on your disloyalty to the party.

      • heenan73 28/05/2019 at 3:08 pm

        Or in other words –

        You don’t have any evidence but you think you think people might not notice if you throw around a few more silly baseless accusation and also indulge in a bit of self-righteous bluster for good measure.

      • What intrigues me is the need of correspondents such as heenan73 to create elaborate fictions (“you certainly wouldn’t be members of the labour Party for long (if you ever were)” to cope with ideas that they disagree with. It’s a thread that runs through the utterances of a number of correspondents here who also tip over into abuse at the drop of a hat.

        A little while back, I strung together a number of the fictions that a couple of characters had made up about me. It was an amusing exercise – and psychologically intriguing.

        Have they mistaken politics for religion? – it’s all a bit like convictions about revealed truth and the need to bend reality to a gospel narrative.

        Interesting.

      • Jack T at 11:44 pm

        I thought you may find this interesting.

        Austerity swung voters to Brexit – and now they are changing their minds

        The voters most badly hit by austerity cuts were those drawn to UKIP and who supported Leave in the EU referendum, argues Thiemo Fetzer (University of Warwick). Recent polling evidence suggests that it is these same voters who are now changing their minds about Brexit.
        https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/11/19/austerity-swung-voters-to-brexit-and-now-they-are-changing-their-minds/

      • Thanks SteveH, I’m not sure we needed an academic study to confirm something which many of us knew already but it all adds to the case against Brexit.

      • I appreciate that but it is nice to have your own thoughts confirmed and it goes a some way to explaining how things turned out. It looks like Cameron & Osborn inadvertently sowed the seeds of their own downfall.

      • “New survey of Labour members shows overwhelming support for another referendum and for staying in the EU

        If Jeremy Corbyn genuinely believes, as he has repeatedly claimed, that the Labour Party’s policy should reflect the wishes of its members rather than just its leaders, then he arguably has a funny way of showing it – at least when it comes to Brexit.”

        An academic study with an agenda it appears. I wonder who sponsors this ‘research’ …

      • heenan73 28/05/2019 at 4:49 pm · ·

        An academic study with an agenda it appears. I wonder who sponsors this ‘research’ …

        Instead of resorting baseless pejorative insinuations perhaps a more intelligent assessment would involve asking if the narrative is a fair representation of the results (all the base data is available on the site). Is it wrong that academic institutions seek to fulfil their public duty by using narrative reports to make their research more accessible. There is another report about the Tories on the same site which is equally forthright.

        Full details of their funding is given on their website. If you wish to make some insinuations then I suggest you do a little research first, it’s helpful to know what you are talking about first.

      • Unlike you, i dont claim to great expertise on statistics, I only studied them for a year. But that
        was long enough to know that those with an agenda can usually twist the figures to fit. I don’t need to make insinuations. It’s obvious that whoever write that report had an agenda. All that is in doubt is whether it was the funders or the scribbler. It’s so pathetic that I have no intention of bothering to read any further.
        In academic terms it stinks. That isn’t a narrative report, it’s Murdoch level weaponising. But because it suits your agenda, you’re happy with it.

      • RH, it’s clear that, whatever arguments you put, heenan will just put his fingers in his ears and shout ‘can’t hear you’.
        ‘I don’t like your evidence so it must be biased’ is not a good look.
        There seem to be some suggestions that the party should have a vote on whether to support remain. That would be interesting here.

      • Andrew Heenan 28/05/2019 at 7:19 pm · ·

        Firstly I am absolutely 100% certain that I have never claimed to be a statistician. You are welcome to try proving otherwise. I’m also puzzled why you are banging on about statistics you don’t need those skills to read the responses to their survey.

        As for the rest of the drivel you’ve posted.
        The truth is inconvenient so you just claim, without any evidence whatsoever, that it is somehow corrupt. You conveniently ignore the fact that all the other academic studies and political polls broadly confirm their results.

        If you think the narrative is in any way unfair and doesn’t reflect the survey results fairly then show why. You don’t need any particular skills beyond being able to read and very basic arithmetic so you should have absolutely no problems.

        You claim that academically it stinks. It is questionable whether you are qualified to make a judgement on this.

        You still haven’t provided any evidence to support your increasingly ridiculous ‘assertions’.

  19. The day after the Referendum I met a friend in Keighley, West Yorkshire (a strong Leave area).
    On the evening at a bus stop I heard a group of working class people talking; they were happy with Leave then said: “Now get Labour in!”
    If Labour goes for another PV or confirmatory vote then I believe the Corbyn Dream is over, in my view we need left wing democratic socialist courage to support a progressive Brexit.
    A socialist transformation of the UK as an example to the World or oblivion?

    • If you had have asked them their reasons for voting to Leave, I doubt if you would have agreed with them. It’s my guess they were fooled by the lies from Farage who stalked those areas to pick off the vulnerable.

  20. I’ve read everyone’s comments…So can someone tell me in plain English what are the advantages to leaving the EU?…So in the interest of fairness, can someone tell me also in plain English what is the advantages in remaining in the EU….Short version please….Cheers!..

    • Pro & Anti EU arguments from 2016 and before (and after) can be found by the thousand with a simple Google search. I really don’t see the point of repeating them here, especially now, when the decision has been made.
      The only question that matters now is ‘what form will Brexit take?’ – and even that can be answered quite simply: “Total Catastrophe”.
      There people here (and elsewhere) who are still in denial about that, even after the phenomenal rise of UKIP2 and their crushing of the PV/CV/ref2 parties (AKA “Remain, but we prefer not to say that”).
      I still curse the day (and the man, and the party) that brought us to a sad referendum intended to buy off the rabid right of the tory party with a failure of grotesque proportions … but whining about history does not change it. Don’t read that bit aloud – it upsets our LibDem trolls.

      • ” whining about history does not change it”

        No – trying to do something about it rather than lying down in front of a steam-roller driven by the Tories – attempting to change the weather – is what progressive politics has always been about.

        Oh – and, heenan73 (and Toffee etc.), it is clear that those fond of using brainless chants such as ‘LibDem trolls’ and sundry knuckle-dragger insult are the ones who are much more likely to be *actual* trolls in the attempt to paint Labour supporters as pretty dim, intolerant and confused – and left-wing politics in general as a mess of incoherent sloganising.

        Choose which side you’re on.and act accordingly.

      • The steamroller has long passed. You’re lying down behind it, silly.

        “those fond of using brainless chants such as ‘LibDem trolls’ and sundry knuckle-dragger insult are the ones who are much more likely to be *actual* trolls in the attempt to paint Labour supporters as pretty dim, intolerant and confused – and left-wing politics in general as a mess of incoherent sloganising.”

        This doesn’t even make sense. It’s you Brexit deniers who are constantly pretending you’re the only ones in Labour with any sense. It’s YOU who insult the membership.

        If we can believe that Hodges and Campbell publicly admitted support of other parties, why should we pretend that anonymous trolls aren’t doing exactly the same?

        I’m sick of seeing LibDem politics praised here, along with constant snipes at the Labour leadership.

        If you want LibDem policies, feel free to go join them. But stop shoving their tired, obsolete ideas down our throats.

        I thank you.

      • “If you want LibDem policies”

        ….err … forgive my bluntness … but painting oppostion to Brexit as a ‘LibDem policy’ is pretty stupid, even if you disagree. Half the nation opposes it – and most Labour supporters.

        And some haven’t simply given up and simply paid obeisance to the Tories’ cunning little wheeze.

    • Patricia – in short, there are no dominant advantages in leaving the EU. The one remaining argument that hasn’t been shown as total fiction is that the basis of the EU is strongly influenced by neoliberal economic assumptions.

      That is absolutely the case. But so is the entire trading system of the world. The idea that a UK detached from Europe will be able to establish it’s own socialist economic paradise within this environment is not a sustainable scenario.

      The more immediate and local issue is the ability of a detached UK to buck the competition rules that inhibit public ownership,and thus control of key assets

      There is a problem with this – but also, countries have found ways round the problem. The idea of blanket prohibition is a fiction and, of course, once you have said ‘nationalisation’, you have said very little about the practical democratic control of capital resources.

      What is conveniently ignored is that the predations of neoliberal capitalism in th UK have been entirely home-grown : Thatcherism and its legacy were not imposed b Europe.

      Beyond that, a major argument against leaving the EU is the further weakening of the country’s position in relation to the wider world. WTO trade restrictions are certainly no more helpful to a socialised economy than the EU option, and the country will be much more subject to the power of major political and trading blocks once outside of the EU.

      The idea of increased ‘sovereignty’ is total hogwash – the US and China will represent much more of a threat to that than the participation with other nations in areas of common interest in a bloc that can negotiate on equal terms with the others.

      The advantages of remaining in Europe are the obverse of all this – co-operation with neighbours in a context where small nation states won’t cut the mustard over the major issues of the day such as climate change and, above all, some on-going say in an alliance that will otherwise simply dictate terms (to a chorus of Faragist whining, of course).

      At the lowest level, the UK is now part of Europe – where it belongs geographically. The complex and beneficial ties that have built up over 40-odd years can’t be broken without massive disruption – which requires far more justification than fictional pipe dreams based on a fictional past (where, for instance, the defeat of Dunkirk becomes a victory).

      Beyond all – it’s a generational betrayal – leavers tend to be older and less well informed than the coming generations used to seeing themselves as European, and who won’t forgive old farts making a dumb decision based on hot air and fantasy-induced navel-gazing.

      • RH, excellent and objective summary. I’d add that staying in the EU would/will still be a rocky ride because of the nationalist currents running through the world these days and the unresolved problems with the single currency.
        But it will still be far better than being outside, for all the reasons you mention.

  21. One advantage (from a myriad – I CBA listing all that i know of0

    No more undercutting of wages & by employers employing exclusively (and exploitatively) from abroad. That’ll end the disgusting treatment of UK nursing trainees because they’ll have more bargaining power, but will also apply across the spectrum – especially blue-collar, unskilled labour.

    • Haven’t Labour already said that they would legislate to stop these abuses.

      • Are labour in govt at this moment?

        No. Unlikely to be in future, neither, given divs like you muddying the waters for the outsider cum- floating voter, leading to them voting elsewhere.

  22. SteveH 28/05/2019 at 1:33 pm · · Reply →
    Haven’t Labour already said that they would legislate to stop these abuses.

    Haven’t they also said they’ll re-nationalise rail, utilities etc? How’s that work while remaining an eu member?

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