Leadership hopeful told Ridge he still thinks second referendum policy was correct – and Labour should have said which way party would campaign in it
Labour leadership candidate Keir Starmer appeared on Sky’s Ridge programme yesterday.
In a remarkable segment of the interview, when Sophie Ridge asked him about Labour’s catastrophic loss of over fifty seats in leave-voting towns in December’s general election, Starmer responded that he still thinks that pushing for Labour to support a new referendum was the right thing to do – and added that he thought Labour should also have said which way it would campaign in the referendum:
There is no doubt about which way Starmer thinks the party should have said it would campaign, as Starmer was saying publicly last year that Labour was a ‘remain party’, even though Labour’s policy was nothing of the sort – and was pushing for remain to be a referendum option months before that.
The SKWAWKBOX went on record before the leadership to say that if the party wants to win back the leave seats it lost – its only route back to power – then no MP who pushed a new referendum can lead it.
That reality is only underlined by the denials of responsibility and rewriting of history currently underway.
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Labour lost the election because half the PLP, all the Tories, all the MSFM and a certain foreign power were fighting 24/7 and spending millions to make certain Labour would lose.
David, that is what I think too.
Correct and this chap was one of the main architects of that loss. If he is elected leader ! heaven help.
It has been said that more Labour voters, particularly concentrated in the south and metropolitan areas, voted remain than leave. It is a fair point to say that had our policy been leave they would have felt alienated and could have gone off to the LibDems. I think the losses overall would have been less had the party unequivocally said we would have respected the referendum result.
And at worst another hung parliament
Leave as far as most people were concerned was as a done deal. Majority of Remain voters having voted accepted though disaappointed accepted the result and expected the politicians to get on with it. They weren’t going to punish any party accepting a democratic vote. 2017 showed that. The fact that the most pro-remain party didn’t get a landslide confirmed it. Labour would have won if they had unambiguously respected the result.
Starmer know that his policy lost the election was otherwise he would be campaigning on a Rejoin platform.
He’s got a lot to answer for.
Well – one thing’s for sure : both mathematically, and in practise, a weak-kneed endorsement of Tory/Brexit Party policy followed by a late shift to more accurately reflect the Party’s support base didn’t work, did it?
That’s the actual history. Doh!
And Bob’s my auntie
Snowflakes f7cked it up, you still dont get the democracy principle
“you still dont get the democracy principle”
Delusion. The fact is that we actually do – and it isn’t about making constitutional changes on the basis of mickey-mouse minority votes.
Majoritarianism isn’t the top and bottom of ‘democracy’ – except for gullible dummies.
Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. Oh yes, I get it. In 2016 it led to a cataclysmic error.
Yes we had such razor sharp insight from political Dumb Right Wing Watson and political Dumber Starmer – the root cause of Labour’s defeat.
And millions suffer cos of Right Wing Neo-Liberal Starmer’s political stupidity!
If Starmer get’s in the Labour Party is politically dead.
Some of us (like we did warning them they would lose if they committed to a second public vote) are trying to save Labour members from themselves.
RLB 1.5 out of 3, Burgon 3/3, rest 0/3.
Corbyn pissing ‘constructive ambiguity’ all over his own USP certainly didn’t help.
Maybe not, Steve, but I think the half of the party that took the Tories’ side were far more damaging.
What WOULD have helped was if his own MPs had defended the strategy.
“We’re not undecided, we’re just not answering until we want to.
Brexit’s an internal Tory feud and we don’t want to intrude on private grief.
Besides, we like it when they shoot at each other instead of us.”
Remainers pissing on democracy did far more damage than Corbyn ever managed.
Orwell had a word for it.
Voting again on a constitutional change supported bu a minority is ‘pissing on demoracy’.
EngSoc and Big Brother live again!
“Vote for Tory policy to get socialism!” Doublespeak at its best.
Come back Wolfie, all is forgiven! Yo weren’t just a joke.
NVLA – What democracy. You are conveniently forgetting that the result of the 2016 Referendum would have been voided by the Supreme Court in Dec16 if it had been anything else but an advisory referendum who’s result had no standing in law
It was _not_ advisory. Have you forgotten Dave’s speech at Chatham House? Or that the HoC (in their arrogance) voted to honour the results?
You two are like Laurel and Hardy, just less funny. And a great reminder of why Labour can go shaft itself. What does Starmers crack taste like?
EngSoc? That’s FBPE in a nut shell. Big Brother? Blair and new Labour gave us that.
What’s the next comeback? Only a minority voted? 1000 loses against 1077
NVLA – That’s not what the Supreme Court said in Dec16
From 2001 to 2010 NL lost approximately 5,000,000 votes, 143 seats and about 250,000 members. In 2015, despite losing the New bit, Labour still lost 26 seats and only marginally improved the total number who voted for it.
Simultaneously, the 55 seats which Labour lost in the 2019 GE and voted to leave, had incrementally haemorrhaged support away from Labour. The only time it improved in nearly 2 decades was the 2017 GE led by a democratic socialist Labour Party which was willing to honour the referendum result. It is no coincidence that everyone of these marginal Labour seats turned their back when they realised they were going to be betrayed again, just as NL had betrayed them in the 13 years they were in power. . Starmers statement only confirms to them that their will be no change if he wins the leadership.
‘betrayed’ – Yadda Yadda nonsense. by the hard of understanding.
Interesting how this palpably dimwit line reflects precisely the Tory bog paper press.
Get real – Brexit was a Tory scam inflicted on the gullible by the MSM – not a rational political choice, and the minority support for it in the Party was actually a part of what led to the defeat, and the Tory success.
It’s a ‘two for one’ deal – Join Labour. Vote Tory – the LexiTories’ bargain basement – and a totally confused and incoherent position for an opposition.
Interest of rhetoric look at the data. All of the 55 Labour constituencies who voted for Leaving were the ones that lost us 55 out of the 59 seats. That is a fact.
Moreover, from 2001 – 2015 they incrementally lost support. Except of course when the democratic socialist Labour Party excepted the result of the referendum and also produced a manifesto which looked like the real Mc Coy instead of a mk2 Tory manifesto or a very diluted versions of it. Both are facts. Now, one of reasons many, who voted to leave, cited the reasons of being left to rot. First by 18 years of Thatcherism and then by New Labour who so many in these seats believed Blair, Brown, Mandelson, Straw, Milburn etc would reverse their economic decline. They didn’t. Hence, they felt betrayed.
So, regardless of the scam orchestrated by the right wing American billionaires and hedge funds in partnership with their fellow billionaires in the UK who control the millionaires in the Tory party and the MSM, they were more interested in their own economic demise. As Clinton said it’s the economy stupid.
Furthermore , to overturn a democratic decision by the people who voted for it, and I voted to stay, wouldn’t bode well for society. Finally, it’s an indisputable fact that in the 2017 GE won almost 13,000,000 votes, 30 seats( the first time Labour had won in nearly 2 decades and achieved the greatest swing since the landslide victory of 1945) and in the 2019 GE Labour lost 59 seats and about 2.5,000,000 votes. In a survey conducted after the election the main read given was Labours stance on Brexit. Until, Labour starts taking the views and considerations of the working class, it will continue to haemorrhage support.
I’ve looked at the data. Basically, Labour lost a massively significant proportion of its overwhelmingly ‘Remain’ support base, and, despite the late attempt at rational opposition, never regained it.
The idea that a ‘Leave’ vote, representing only a third of the country, and heavily weighted towards voting for the right would replace that loss was always Cloud Cuckoo Land.
In addition, the split between the Party and the prevaricating and weak-looking leadership was lethal.
By the time of an election, with a timing chosen by the Tories, Corbyn had been thoroughly rubbished by the propaganda, and Labour had no chance of winning.
All the nonsense about the minority ‘Leave’ vote is just a comfort blanket for those who can’t face reality and had adopted Tory policy.
Sadly, it was a massive early strategic mistake, followed by other simple mistakes in terms of effective refutation, that determined that there was no real answer to the propaganda assault.
The defeat was certain as soon as the date of the election was announced (and agreed). The only surprise was the majority.
Forget the Brexit myths – acceeding to the Tory con would have made no difference. The electorate reckoned that the Tories did Tory policy better – because Labour had posed no convincng opposition.
@Brian
An accurate critique. As for RHs twisted beliefs, we shall see once Starmer takes the reins. My money is on Brian
Tragedy that Burgon is not standing for leader, only matched by the tragedy that Corbyn is standing down. In the absence of Pidcock, the landscape is bleak – but that probably says everything we need to know about Labour today: at a parliamentary level it is largely populated, right and left ,with intellectually weak, easily manipulated, browbeaten, hollowed-out excuses for politicians. Where are the Benns and Shores, the Livingstones and Galloways, even the Shorts and Cooks? “Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer, we’ll keep the Red Flag flying here.
labrebisgalloise, unusually short post from me. Could not agree more. It is the needless appeasement of the unappeasable and a clear out of touch ness of the candidates. To me bizarre irrelevant obsessions as if determined NOT to address anything that’s relevant to all. … that would REALLY change things FUNDAMENTALLY for the better… eg don’t pay private companies over 300 BILLION to trample over sick people… DON’T pay tax exiles to cherry pick the state built NHS… DON’t allow a charlatan to sue the NHS because he did not get another opportunity to rape the NHS…DON’t let French and Australian and German outfits own our utilities… DON’t let Johnson get away with lying, irresponsibility and recklessness eg having eugenicist employed in his gang or having a British mother suffer an extended prison stay… or Air miles Andrew dodge helping the victims of Epstein … or Andrew’s mammy entertaining head-choppers and lashers like the Saudi & Bahraini ghastly dictatorships AND JOHNSON ALLOWING PRITI PATEL DIY FOREIGN POLICY MAVEN of ISRAELI OPERATIVES, in ANY office let alone a KEY Govt position‼️‼️‼️ WHERE is the energy, insight, intellect, focus C O U R A G E of our MPs and candidates for leadership⁉️⁉️⁉️ I D I S P E A R🔴🔴🔴
Starmer is our guarantee that Labour will lost the next election.
Errrr … and we’ve just had a raging victory? And the Zionist RLB is the answer?
I’m no fan of Starmer – or the choice we have – but gifting the Tories victory on the basis of hysterical defeatism is known as being ‘a bit previous’.
This is cold-hearted cynicism from Sir Kier Starmer. He is either incorrigible in his pro- EU remainism or he thinks members are and is positioning himself to die-hard pro-remain members. He’s banking that the majority of members will respond positively to his position, his USP.
It’s a mistake. Labour members will see through it.
I am a resolute remainer, yet strongly believe the Party’s second referendum positioning cost it the election.
So, even though I am a strong pro-EU membership ‘remainer’ I certainly will NOT elect a leader who is largely responsible for Labour’s 2019 defeat.
You seem to be a little confused.
Not really. As strongly as I believe that leaving the EU is bad and wrong, I also believe a DEMOCRATIC Labour Party should respect the referendum.
Socialism and Democracy are INDIVISIBLE – Sir Kier Starmer’s possible victory would verify this and set back the cause of democratic socialism.
SteveH
I voted Leave but
Have SFA in common with elderly white racists who voted for Uncle Festa and cheap and nasty Tory party
However the vast majority in this debate agreed we should honour the 2016 result
I agree with you Doug. We should indeed have ‘honoured’ that result in which the majority didn’t support the Tory policy on Brexit, and then built on that position instead of farting about like a half-wit on downers.
I am in the same position, cannot vote for Starmer and cannot vote for Nandy. I am still unsure as to whatever to hold my nose and vote for Long-Bailey or no to vote at all.
The vote I am sure is for Richard Burgon as Deputy Leader.
Important question: if a member were to only make a first choice selection on the ballot paper, would the vote still be counted?
qwertboi – Yes
I shall vote for RLB as she is the best candidate. For one thing, she supports open selections.
If Starmer gets in, then I think we may well see the return of the toxic trio of Benn, Reeves and Cooper.
That would be disastrous.
You speak for me on this qwertboi
Remainer who also didn’t want a second referendum, I believed it was undemocratic. I wanted a Corbyn led leave, a compromise.
Voting = ‘undemocratic’.
With this sort of penetrating analysis, it looks like the Tories were gifted the election from the start.
Theresa May at the Despatch Box said to Corbyn “We’ll never let you become Prime Minister” and with the help of Mossad they made sure it did not happen. Brexit was one of the tools they manipulated to ensure Corbyn’s downfall and by his dithering and failure to fight back he co-operated.
The Lexiters and the right wing are fond of saying if only we had supported Brexit we would have won. They are useful fools who cannot see that they have been used in the plot to discredit Corbyn and it is this demolition of Corbyn’s credibility which lost us the election.
Leavers, after you taking sides with Farage, don’t bother telling me that I still don’t get it, I assure you I do.
StarmerBlairSwinsonBlairStarmerSwinsonStarmerBlair………beat the drum & follow the Liberals into oblivion. The European CommissionDeutscheBankCentralEuropeanBankInternationaMonetaryFund….Go follow Macron & Merkle.
Corbyn should have stuck to his beliefs & taken us out of EU post referendum, keeping closer ties.
Those who call for a 2nd Referendum did not accept the 1st. Says a lot about integrity.
Yawn.
“Those who call for a 2nd Referendum did not accept the 1st”
I thought it was a reasonable result : no majority for Brexit.
But then the LexiTories got hold of it with inanely weird logic, supporting Tory policy by claiming a majority for change and then not wanting a second vote when they were already quoting the false result from one and the same. Then going further and claiming that further voting was ‘undemocratic’.
With brainpower and delusion like this, it’s no wonder the Spivs walked all over Woflie’s face.
Starmer. The next Blair.
Yes, as leader, Starmer would be ‘Blair Mark 5’
Blair Mk 2 was Cameron, Mk 3 was May, Mk 4 is killer-clown Johnson.
Too many Blair copies and the country is going to hell in a handcart.
I very much doubt that Keir Starmer will lead us into an illegal war.
Yes – I’m always puzzled by hysterical exaggeration being considered ‘left wing’.
I’d have said that about Blair, when I celebrated Labour gaining power in ’97. It didn’t age well.
And don’t forget- they were the heady days where being caught lying, being overtly racist and conspiring to beat people up would have resulted in resignations. Now they warrant promotion.
MBO at 11:27 am
This article from back in the day indicates otherwise
Sorry, Mr Blair, but 1441 does not authorise force. The attorney general has a tricky task in defending the legal basis for war
Keir Starmer –
Mon 17 Mar 2003 02.24 GMT
Ooops, I forgot the link
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/mar/17/foreignpolicy.iraq1
Some of Starmer’s staff are like a ‘who’s who’ of hard-right mobbers. I think my comment stands.
MBO – Starmer purposely recruited his staff from right across the Labour Party’s political spectrum with the dual purpose of utilising the best talent available and more importantly unifying the party.
Perhaps that is why he is attracting the support of the likes of Laura Parker – Momentum’s national coordinator until 2019, and who previously worked as private secretary to Jeremy Corbyn
“I am backing Keir Starmer because he has placed unifying the party at the heart of his mission and made an unequivocal commitment to preserving our core policies. In defending the transformative economic agenda upon which he stood as a shadow cabinet member in 2019”
Steve Richards – “All referendae are advisory until acted upon by Parliament”
Sorry but you are mistaken, I suggest you take a look at the Kyle Amendment.
As painful as it is, I suspect well over 80% of Labour Party members see the EU commission as fairy godmothers ensuring workers rights. This is despite none of the workers protections anything other than marginal implementation in the poorest corners of the EU.
This position is so well articulated by Francis O’Grady who finds it an easier than recognising the difficult challenges facing trade union. I find it difficult to grasp how socialists have failed to educate/persuade fellow members about the realities rather than wishful thinking about the EU and its nature. Perhaps it is our inability to create more practical demonstration of what constitutes socialist alternatives that so many lean on (false) vision to keep their hopes alive.
” I suspect well over 80% of Labour Party members see the EU commission as fairy godmothers ensuring workers rights.”
I doubt it – just a sane recognition that Brexit was (and is) a ploy of the extreme right to create a country that trails behind Europe in most aspects.
The ‘fairy god-mother’ myths were those created by the Lexiteers who couldn’t see the bleedin’ obvious coming down the road in their model of fantasy ‘socialism’ (i.e the sort that ends up dominated by Tory policy).
Felicity 18/02/2020 at 8:14 am
As painful as it is, I suspect well over 80% of Labour Party members see the EU commission as fairy godmothers
Felicity – At least you’ve acknowledged that the vast majority of the Labour Party’s membership support the EU.
I am also a Remainer who also didn’t want a second referendum,( held my nose at COnf decision to do so, in vain hope we’d win ) . I believed it was undemocratic. I wanted a Corbyn led leave, a compromise.
A lexit under Corbyn is far far more preferable than NO LABOUR GOVT AT ALL . Sir Starmer ( a knight of the Realm , Elite , ffs leading Labour , oh the irony of it all ) will guarantee Labours defeat at next election.
Christ on a bike can someone persuade Corbyn or blackmail him anything to get him to stand again !!!!.
The options are shite
“The options are shite”
Indeed they are. Including yours of bringing Corbyn back.
I supported him at every vote – but you need to get your head round the idea that he and the Party he led lost the last election by a country mile.
Not fair; not just, and based on a pack of lies in a bent media – but what makes you think that the situation is redeemable? This isn’t La La Land.
Get real.
RH ,, My head is very clear regarding the reason why we lost that was made very clear to me on the door steps of Normanton .
It was not Corbyn or his polices ( although I agree with your comment re the pack of lies in a bent media ) , but the simple fact of the remain option on the cards that option lost us the election. .The fact that the Labour party has not yet had a drains up as to why and dodged that ” learning” is shocking , yet more so is the unnecessary headlong screaming rush to ditch Corbyn and elect some new fresh face.
Especially as those on offer are so second rate to a highly experienced and principled man.Hence indeed the options are SHITE.
Now that’s what I call getting real and the la la land is for those believing somehow that Starmer or RLB stand a cat in hells chance of winning the next election .
rob, you don’t believe people parrot on the doorsteps what they’ve read most recently in the comics or heard on the tellybox?
I only ask because thats been blindingly bleedin’ obvious in just about every vox pop and TV panel discussion I’ve ever seen.
They repeat the wording of the headlines verbatim – or of Farage’s, May’s or Johnson’s soundbites.
You can claim they’re expressing their own thoughts in the words of their heroes if you wish – but that would be to claim that establishment propaganda isn’t worth the billions spent on it because people can distinguish truth from propaganda and make their own minds up despite the constant, hammering repetition.
Steveh my comment re Skinner is wrt my canvassing in his patch Normanton , where they voted overwhelmingly to leave ,hence as Labour had in their eyes let them down with the RW plotted ” remain option ” they voted Tory as they didn’t trust Labour on Brexit .
Now imo with Starmer’s stupid unilateral decision to make Labour a re-join party should he win , will cement their decision to vote Tory and ensure our defeat at the next election .
David of course the media lies over 4 yrs will have had an impact , but on the doorsteps no mention over AS or other issues , only ONE stood out time and again , that was lack of trust and suspicions over Labour not doing Brexit , simple .Bearing in mind Skinners patch was vastly leave voting .
Rob – Bearing in mind Skinners patch was vastly leave voting.
You must have misread that, Starmer’s constituency voted 73.34% Remain.
”I supported him at every vote”
Once gain rh demnstrates his overbearing hubris along with his belief we fell to earth within the last rain shower.
The truth is, dicky, YOU supported fatberg slime watson and slimeball starmer’s undermining corbyn at every opportunity
THAT lost labour the election. You supported slimeball starmer then; and you do NOW.
Yes, it’s even more obvious now Corbyn’s gone that you NEVER WERE a Corbyn supporter and you have ZERO socialist tendencies.
Go on – fuck RIGHT off, LIAR.
🙄 – follow that turd – 🚽
Oh, look!
Emojis for a pathetic attempt at a retort. See, rh thinks emojis appeal to the imbecilic, so now he uses them when he can’t think of big, holier-than-thou words from his extensive vocabulary to give off the illusion he’s educated.
He likes to tell me off for swearing, while using his ‘fancy patois’ , yet here he is typing ‘turd’.
YOU BAD LAD.
Oh – And NO denial, neither. The mask’s slipped, dicky.
Rumbled AND rattled… All TOO easy.
Have an emoji right back at ya!
😀
So is that all you’ve got, dicky?
I mean, earlier today we got this off you when you got told.
https://skwawkbox.org/2020/02/18/video-number-10-slaps-down-cabinet-minister-for-saying-govt-disagrees-with-advisers-race-iq-comments/#comment-136943
I know you’re still here because you answered on another thread a few minutes ago.
rh – claims to have supported corbyn, but defends THE biggest establishment candidate since bliar. A candidate that has opposed toerag policy as much as eric pickles opposed having another pie. A candidayte that refused to prosecute TWO toerags when DPP. A candidate that abstained on the welfare bill, driving 000’s of people into abject penury.
And a candidate that called for corbyn to stand down despite Corbyn being TWICE democratically elected leader of the party.
THAT’S how much rh supported Corbyn. That how social & democratic rh is.
The complete gobshite.
Let’s see if we can get some facts into this emotion. David Cameron proposed a Referendum & all Political Parties (MPs voted to have a Referendum) & agreed to abide by the result on a 1st past the post basis . A majority of the voters (over one million)voted to leave the EU. The vast majority of MPs voted to implement Article 50 but then changed their minds…………”children weren’t consulted; the working class are too emotional & stupid to vote the right way & besides they’re just a bunch of ignorant racists”.
Starmer wanted a 2nd Referendum because he didn’t like the result of the 1st. The chaotic outcome of such an event beggars belief. If the Leavers won again the result would still be challenged (bad losers), but if they win it’s a draw, so we need another Referendum, maybe the best of 5 or a system of perpetual Referendae ensuring that children of every age can have a vote..
Personally I blame the elders.
Your comment is a little disingenuous because unlike the 2016 referendum which was advisory and had no standing in law any CV would have been framed so that the referendum result would have the effect of being the final authorisation to enact pre passed legislation. Your arguments are nonsense.
All referendae are advisory until acted upon by Parliament, which the vast majority of MPs did when they voted for Article 50. You appear oblivious of the facts…….but now you can be happy in the knowledge that the man who is closer to Blair than Jeremy is favourite to become Labour leader.
The PLP destroyed Labour’s chances of winning the GE & Starmer was the architect. Ignoring the result of the Referendum sealed the result of the GE & illustrated the contempt that PLP has for the working classes. It was a protest vote & the bitterness is still there.
Now you have the ‘Liberal’ who has always undermined Jeremy, about to take control as leader of the Labour Party. PLP will welcome him, as will those who refuse to accept the result of the Referendum. As a consequence of Starmer’s actions we will leave under BoJo’s terms & not Jeremy’s.
Starmer’s PR machine describes him as a man with integrity; authority & will unite the Party…….do you think so; do you really think so Comrades?.
Steve Richards – “All referendae are advisory until acted upon by Parliament”
You are mistaken, I suggest you take a look at the Kyle Amendment.
“Personally I blame the elders.”
Personally, I blame the gullible and insular supporters of the Tories – who were, come to think of it, more usually at the senile end of the age spectrum.
RH, if you looked at the data carefully which evidently you did not. You would have noticed that the 55 out of the 59 SEATS WHICH LABOUR LOST IN THE 2019 GE HAD ALL VOTED TO LEAVE. Moreover, it would be glaringly obvious THAT EVERY ONE OF THEM SINCE 2001 UP TO 2015 HAD HAEMORRHAGED SUPPORT FOR NEW LABOUR. THE ONLY TIME THAT SUPPORT DRAMATICALLY INCREASED FOR LABOUR WHEN THEY SAID THEY WOULD HONOUR THE RESULT OF THE REFERENDUM. WHEN LABOUR REFUSED TO HONOUR THE RESULT, THEY EN MASSE VOTED AGAINST LABOUR WHICH RESULTED IN THE TORIES HAVING A MAJORITY OF 59.
Regardless of whether you agree with result or not, the fact is the total electorate voted to leave. A fact which you have difficulty accepting.
Under Jeremy Corbyn in 2017 the party decision was to uphold the decision of the referendum. The disastrous decision to fudge the decision to accept the result by many in the PLP, such as Starmer, Cooper, Bryant and co, who participated in the Chicken coup lest we forget along with the other “ moderates “, “ centrists “ and other Blairites and , unfortunately, some of his closet comrades who were willing to go against the result of “ unity”.
However, the other most important reason along with the failure to honour the result of the referendum was the Tsunami of propaganda both by the external opponents the democratic socialist Labour Party and the malcontents within. Eg Watson, Hodge, Mann, Blair, Mandelson, Kinnocks and so on. All of these worked hand in glove to undermine the democratic socialist Labour Party.
Furthermore, they made no secret that there intent was to thwart a democratic socialist Labour Party victory. To quote their de facto leader “ I rather the Labour lost than win on a platform of socialism “ or his partner in the project, who had been run out of office for corruption more than times than Billy the kid from Dodge city” said “ I work night and day to undermine the party “.
JC had and overwhelming mandate, unfortunately, he believed that these scoundrels could be persuaded. Let’s hope, that the Labour Party movement don’t allow these charlatans to win otherwise a mk2 NL Party will follow the same demise as the Liberals.
Again the notion that Tories would have done well regardless does not stand up to scrutiny. In April 2019 YouGov conducted a poll and said the Tories would be trounced if Labour honoured the referendum.
Alas, the ambitions of a few overrode the will of the many in the GE which was ABOUT BREXIT.
“We’re going to get brexit done“… of all the soundbites, that was probably the most effective in the final weeks by constantly telling people Johnson understood their frustration while implying that everyone else was holding brexit up.
Cumminge would probably have been looking most closely at the focus group results on people’s frustration levels (among all the other issues) to decide the best time to call the election.
I think pure frustration may have swung it – people being sick of hearing about, thinking about and talking about the same thing for years on end just reached a pitch.
brianbotou – Do you have a link to that YouGov poll?
Tories 28% Labour 32% April 10th 2019. Just type in YouGov April 2019 and look for the date above.
The poll is 15 pages long, which specific question do the above results refer to.
“the fact is the total electorate voted to leave. ”
Of course it didn’t, and Labour supporters were massively against. Dismissing the views of half the country, and pretending that a dodgy vote is holy writ isn’t ‘democratic’ – it’s ludicrous.
A religious devotion to ‘Leave’ doesn’t get round the hard fact that the concept was supported by just over a third of the electorate. It wasn’t, by any logical description a credible ‘mandate, and anyone with ears knows that a large proportion of the electorate didn’t have a clue about what was involved.
“In April 2019 YouGov conducted a poll and said the Tories would be trounced if Labour honoured the referendum.”
… and if you believe that, you’ve probably got fairies at the bottom of the garden!
There are a lot of issues feeding into the election result, but David is absolutely right that the simplistic and untrue concept of ‘getting Brexit done’ – a total uninformed illusion – had pulling power. It confirms that a large proportion of the electorate had absolutely no idea of the issues – even three years on.
But that was only part of what was an overwhelming propaganda campaign, the leading notion of which was to paint Corbyn as unfit to be a leader. That was *the* main issue when push came to shove … and. of course, it shaped views about Labour as a whole.
Going back in time, the idea that competing for Tory/Brexit Party/UKIP votes whilst abandoning the majority of actual on-side support was a ludicrous tactical and strategic mistake. It shaped the perception of Labour as a weak apology for an opposition that fed into the general scepticism and sense of its irrelevance.The hard fact is that the late adoption of a more rational policy did attract back some of the base that had been lost to the LibDems etc. (it can be seen in the polling) – but not enough. ‘Honouring’ the cock-up of a referendum would have stripped the Party of even that reclaimed ground – and all the poll analysis showed that the loss of a Remain vote was more significant than any regaining of Leave voters.
When the Tories played their trump card and went for an election, Labour were dragged into a situation where the election was already lost, with no time to expose Johnson to sufficient scrutiny after his predictable poll boost.
Bluntly – the loss of Leave votes as an explanation for defeat is just a comfort blanket to excuse bad tactics and strategy at the beginning.
When Corbyn came close to winning the election in 2017, despite the attempted coup by the right wing and the determined efforts of the Israeli Lobby to unseat him, it sent shivers down the backs of his enemies.
They knew his greatest strengths i.e. his preferences for concilliation and lack of confrontation were also his greatest weaknesses and they launched a massive attack upon him to exploit those weaknesses.
Many of the far left also saw a chance to have a go at Corbyn to further their ideoligical hatred of the EU and joined in with the demolition agenda.
As a canvasser for Corbyn and Labour I saw a gradual shift in what I was being told on the doorsteps. One of the comments I heard most often was “why should I vote for Corbyn when his own MP’s don’t support him”
From the start of the referendum, Corbyn was blown around like a ship without a rudder by listening to advice from those who knew he could be manipulated.
THIS IS WHY WE LOST THE ELECTION and both the right wing/Zionists and the Lexiters had a hand in it, Brexit was just a catalyst used by both.
Those who say “I voted Remain but ….” decided to go along with the herd because they are afraid to ask themselves if the referendum was actually democratic under the conditions it was held.
“ of course it didn’t “ “ Results of The United Kingdom European Union Membership referendum. Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?. Date 23 June 2016. Results Leave 17,410,742 votes, 51.89%: Remain 16,141,241 votes 48.11%: Registered voters/ turnout 46,500,001, 72.21% source wikipedia.org.” The electoral commission.org.uk has exactly the same figures.
Therefore, your theory that the result is in invalid, is, to put it mildly incorrect since the majority of people who voted decided to leave. Just to repeat, I voted to remain. I don’t like the result anymore than you.
Unfortunately, as even George Galloway warned amongst many many other former and current politicians and activists drew up the alarm bells if we ignore the result, which in essence the Labour Party did coerced by Starmer, Thornberry and co plus many of the “ moderates, centrists “ plus Blairites.
Remember, what happened at the September conference when despite these warnings these charlatans still tried to ignore the referendum result. So the democratic socialist Labour Party would face the consequences.
What happened, why Labour lost 55 out of the 59 seats from Labour seats which voted remain. Now, no amount of burying your head in the sand along with some other bloggers on here will alter those facts and facts they are whether you like them or not. Furthermore, the poll from YouGov in April 2019, despite the efforts of your fellow head in the sand fellow traveller to dismiss it, indicates the democratic socialist Labour Party could have won if it had not allowed the malcontents in the PLP to try to marginalise the referendum result.
Moreover, just to repeat, in the 2017 GE Labour increased its vote by a large margin in these seats which all lost had haemorrhaged support over nearly 2 decades, and had all voted to remain. Another uncomfortable fact I know. Yet, they supported the democratic socialist Labour Party because of its policies and because it would honour the democratic result of the referendum. Another unpalatable fact I know.
Yes, I agree, the billionaires, hedge funds, dark money from both the rabid right wing American Billionaires and so called “ foundations “ poured money in to the coffers of the leave campaign and the GE, truepublica.org.uk has written a very incisive, very detailed article about this topic.
However, we are where we are whether you like it or not. Unless, we start taking in to account the views of the working class, whether you agree with them or not, we are going to continue to incrementally haemorrhage support and a back to the future with Starmer at the wheel is going to drive the party further in to the quagmire!
Hmm, I typed in on google YouGov poll April 2019 and looked at the result for the 10th April which showed the state of play for the GE if held on that date which showed Tories28% Labour 32%.!
I have just repeated it, YouGov April 2019 and it just gave me the same result.
Jack T, I agree the 2017 GE did send shivers amongst the Zionists and the establishment.
However, the strategy of attacking socialism within the Labour Party did not begin at this date but a few years previous. For example, the coordinated efforts by Iain McNicol, the Portland communication PR company associated with Jack Straw, advised by Alastair Campbell, and funded by a number of prominent Blairites, plus of course the legal strategy to prevent Jeremy Corbyns name on the potential leaders nominations list.
Not forgetting of course, the choreographed actions between shadow cabinet members and the State Broadcaster resigning live, on the hour every hour. Yet, despite the most coordinated propaganda attack in the U.K. since the end of the Cold War, they failed because the majority members saw through the haze of smoke and mirrors bullshit.
Moreover, if you recall when this strategy failed the establishment plus the quislings within the Labour Party adopted a new strategy, in essence its an old strategy. Sling slime and smears and find which ones stick the best. So they tried the old wheeze, wheeled out against Wilson in the sixties, a communist sympathiser, spy and a long term mole. Straight out of a John le Carre spy thriller. It failed miserably because Jeremy Corbyn faced them down.
Next he was a racist as Noam Chomsky said “ you have to admire the skill of the MSM to convince the public that a pacifist and an anti racist who fought all his life that they now believed he was a racist”. The marvels of propaganda at its finest. Working in tandem with this hogwash was the “ IRA sympathiser”, which Andrew Neil constantly flung in JCs face, despite the fact that he helped broker the good Friday agreement and the accolades from politicians and ex terrorists from both sides of the civil war.
However, the AS fabrications worked best because the other smears did attract as much traction as this. The hard right and the ragbag of malcontents within the Party knew although he had the overwhelming support of the membership because of Blair’s purging of socialists via the central listing system the majority of the PLP were against him. This was the Achilles heel and they worked on it.
Yes, to a degree JC believed in reconciliation but he feared having another split as in the eighties with the SDP. Therefore, the, as Willy Brandt termed it , Real Politik came to the fore. Of course the likes of Starmer, Thornberry and Nandy knew this , they were JCs new best friends and not forgetting the odious Watson. The others Mann, Leslie and co began with earnest, nothing new in this strategy think of the Cold War paranoia, a witch-hunt for AS. They were found every where if not, just like WMD, invent them. In the end it became like an Arthur Miller play “ The Crucible”. AS were found amongst Jewish Members, who when they protested were accused of being the wrong sort of a Jew. It would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic.
Naturally, the malcontents and the establishment couldn’t attack the democratic socialist Labour Party on its socialist policies, which was the whole raison d’ etre to conduct this Tsunami of propaganda, so they used the old tactics of attack the messenger. A leading Labour list councillor and potential NEC candidate admitted as much in a recent CLP meeting.
So the scene was set, the propaganda firmly in place, the next step was to eliminate his supporters. Livingstone, Williams and so on and split the consensus over Brexit which had helped gain so much support for Labour at the 2019 GE. By this time of course, the floating voters, the former rock solid Labour constituencies had been allowed to whither on the vine under NL. Remember, Blair’s words the socialists had nowhere to go. How wrong he was. They felt betrayed again as when I talked to former Labour supporters in former rock solid Labour seats.
WE LOST THE ELECTION BECAUSE IT WAS IN ESSENCE ABOUT BREXIT and the surveys conducted afterwards by a myriad of polling companies confirmed this.
As I said to another blogger, a back to the future leader with Starmer in the driving seat, will drive the party further in to the shite.
“ much support in the 2017 GE…”
Something not mentioned for a very long time – here at least – is that right up until the referendum result was declared it was believed that common sense would prevail and remain would win.
The consequence of crediting people with enough intelligence not to jump off a cliff was that remainers stayed home in droves.
We’re still falling and still arguing about what’s at the bottom.
I still say rocks are more likely than trampolines.