Senior Shadow Cab member “I blame Starmer for northern problems”

Leading Labour MP pins Brexit party surge on Shadow Brexit Secretary – as others demand to know his plan to stop no-deal Brexit
Keir Starmer

A senior member of the Shadow Cabinet has pointed the finger at Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer for the strong polling of the Brexit party in the north of England.

The MP said:

Keir’s constant emphasis on a new referendum has made us vulnerable in northern seats and allowed Farage to exploit it even though he daren’t mention a policy beyond leaving the EU. A lot of people are so angry they don’t care at the moment.

It started when he went off-script to talk about remain as an option during his Conference speech and he never misses an opportunity to mention it in some form in every appearance. There’s no question it’s hurting us and damaging voter trust – and it’s going to hand Johnson and Farage an early Christmas present.

Other Labour MPs are now demanding that Starmer says how he intends to prevent a no-deal Brexit when the most likely consequence of his insistence – against Labour policy – that any deal would have to go back to the public is likely to be Boris Johnson as PM, not only free to run down the clock to a default no-deal exit but to exploit it in a ‘fire sale’ of assets and a bonfire of human rights.

Centrist Stephen Kinnock made a similar point on Friday evening’s Channel 4 News – though without naming Starmer – when he told the programme that a no-deal Brexit had become hugely more likely and linked it specifically to those pushing for another referendum:

SKWAWKBOX view:

It’s time for a reshuffle, so Labour can send a clear message to the public.

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164 responses to “Senior Shadow Cab member “I blame Starmer for northern problems”

  1. Starmer has been using a second referendum to curry favour with members to boost his own popularity despite knowing full well it damages the Labour vote with the wider electorate.

    He is an absolute disgrace. I would sack him if I were in charge, he has placed his career interests above the party and country.

    He is a right wing social democrat plotter like Tom Watson. They are intent on sabotaging the election of a socialist Labour government.

    He is a disloyal, untrustworthy individual who is not fit to hold public office.

    • Too true , Internal affairs, I myself listened with horror, as a Delegate at the 2018 September Labour Conference, opening the Brexit debate, to “our man from the UK Deep State, ex DPP, Kier Starmer, giving a bogus entirely uncritical description of the entirely big-business favouring , neoliberal, EU – as an entirely benevolent manifestation of “internationalism” – by inference indistinguishable from genuine socialist internationalism ! And even worse , he was applauded to the echo by a large part of the gullible Conference audience. His speech was exactly the same as could have been given by Vince Cable. and let us not forget that more recently Emily Thornberry has voiced exactly the same pro PV (or “confirmatory vote” sentiments – as her bid to build a future leadership bid base amongst the naïve Left liberals (rather than socialists- even of a mildly traditional social democratic kind) who are so prevalent amongst our activist membership.

      The anti Corbyn Blairites and their centrist allies have certainly found , in Brexit, the policy fracture in the pro Corbyn majority in our Party as a crude wedge to split both our more politically naïve members, and our working class voter base in the North and Midlands and Wales away from both Corbyn and our Party. Let us never forget , to “reclaim our Party” for the Right careerists the Blairite fifth column are working to achieve a future General Election disaster for Labour, as they hoped for in 2017. That such a disaster will actually spell the end of the Labour Party as a mass party , to mimic the collapse of the previously hegemonic social democratic parties like the German SPD, the French Socialist Party, PASOK in Greece, etc , to be displaced by the populist Far Right, is something the Labour Right seem incapable of grasping.

      • jpenney 18/05/2019 at 11:54 am

        Your own version of genuine socialist internationalism doesn’t appear to stretch beyond Dover.

      • Question for jpenney:
        Would our leaving the EU – or even its complete dismantling and abandonment by the other 27 – give their populations any advantage whatever in the fight against global neoliberalism or the rise of the 1%?
        Or would it instead give the 1% 28 smaller and less powerful victims?

      • Labour is in danger of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory by listening to bourgeois, Right Wing careerist political morons like Starmer, Watson, Benn, Cooper,Lammy et al.
        Two things, firstly comrades you need to select 620 left wing democratic socialists Parliamentary Candidates who back Jeremy and secondly support Labour’s progressive policies which relate to peoples’ lives and also to go for Brexit AND WE WILL WIN WITH A LANDSLIDE!
        It’s as simple as that.
        Solidarity & X.

    • “Your own version of genuine socialist internationalism doesn’t appear to stretch beyond Dover.”

      Nor should it. Centre left Social democratic parties have been destroyed in Europe, the only (genuine) Socialist countries are under economic/terrorist attack by America and its allies (the British government). I don’t see any comradeship between the Labour party and Venezuela, Nicaragua or Cuba. Having seen how Labour party members have responded to the prospect of leaving the EU, I realise they would absolutely despise a Socialist society and are only happy taking a fake left stand on minority groups/identity politics.

      • AKA ;the painted-in corner of a darkened, soundproof room model of socialism – isolation and echo as the main features of the core model.

        Not much of a vision – or much likelihood of public support.

        Now … about the Labour party and the real world …

      • lundiel 18/05/2019 at 5:19 pm

        Are you saying that you didn’t agree with the 2017 manifesto ?

    • Dear Jeremy

      Been out campaigning ….

      Message from the streets is unmistakeable:

      Because of our LEXIT trajectory in negation of our PUBLIC VOTE policy We are heading DOWN ;

      LOSING our natural supporters

      HANDING A VICTORY TO Farage and to No Deal, to the Liibdems and the Greens

      PLEASE see sense and abandon LEXIT NOW for the sake of the entire CORBYN project

      There’s still time to turn these Euro elections around.
      You have the perfect reasons:
      The conditions (Bad May Deal or No deal) for the Public Vote option have been MET!!!!

      Come on Jez Do it !!!!

      • None of us can claim to have talked to a scientifically selected random sample of the population.

        But the opportunity sample of genuine Labour supporters that I come across heavily endorses the analysis :

        “LOSING our natural supporters”

        Every conversation about it in the last few days has devolved around how to vote – from people whose motives are unquestionable, and whose record of political activity similarly so.That’s before getting to the generally uncommitted who could easily be persuaded to vote Labour.

        It all confirms what surveys show – the commitment of the majority of Labour supporters to at the least a second referendum. That (although to remain in the EU is the objective) is the minimum to keep these people on board.

  2. starmer resigned as DPP on the very day the old bill said michael green/ seb fox/ grant shapps’ business dealings: ‘May have constituted an offence of fraud’ .

    Was content enough to vehemently pursue someone who made a joke tweet about having a bomb at an airport, though.

    ’nuff said.

  3. He’s right, said myself this morning it’s absolutely stupid Starmer doing this today, just agreeing with Theresa May that it was Labour who failed in the Brexit talks because they want a 2nd referendum.
    Starmer is now well past his usefulness to the party and I’m certain he’s plotting with Watson to make things difficult for Labour to win the next election, perhaps he see’s himself as the leader of the centrist group.

  4. Where are ‘the usuals’ , rushing to starmer’s defence. I wonder?

  5. Stephen Kinnock and an anonymous MP. Very convincing rebuttal of accepted policy! Not.

    Usual suspects.

    Is the next step acceptance of other Tory policies – for instance increased austerity as Brexit bites harder?

  6. Starmer’s endless pushing of a 2nd referendum is abysmal but what is actually killing us with the electorate in the north of England is the decision to delay Brexit six months beyond the end of March. That decision was a choice of the entire collective leadership and it is costing Labour dear.

    • What’s killing Labour in the Midlands and the North is the failure to implement conference policy and put a second referendum with the option to remain firmly forward as our policy, now that all the conditions have been met. Working class Labour voters are overwhelmingly pro-Remain (even in Leave seats) and no significant numbers of class conscious worker or trade unionists support Leave – but our unprincipled fudge is alienating our pro-Remain base. All recent polls confirm this. Even at this 11th hour, Corbyn should Ignore the bankrupt bleatings of the pro-Unicorn “Lexit” fantasists and come out clearly for a second referendum in which Labour will advocate Remain.

    • Mitchell was an MP I could never really take to for some unknown, subconscious reason; but that’s a fair assessment.

    • Strangely (or maybe not) he makes no attempt to offer a solution, just gripes about everybody else not having provided a solution.
      Is anyone, even in this august company, better informed having read it?
      Can anyone determine his view on how to break the Brexit impasse without further reading?
      I thought it a pointless, pandering article.

      • You’re absolutely right in that analysis. Mitchell, despite some qualities, often had a tendency to illogicality, and this typifies it :

        “a second referendum is so obviously a confidence trick to push the public back into their box”

        … and his reference to “It would be a humiliating crawl back” entirely misses the point that the humiliation has already occurred, with the UK losing influence and credibility whilst becoming a joke to most of the rest of the planet (not just Europe).

        I doubt that many of us who support another (proper) referendum would choose it from scratch – we just see it as the *only* way out of the humilation that Brexit has thrust upon the country.

  7. It is disappointing that a small but vocal minority of those claiming to be Labour ‘members’ are unable to accept Labour Party policy.

    • Promoting a second referendum now is not Labour policy. As you don’t know what the party’s policy is you are clearly either not a Labour member or a very poorly informed one.

      • You are entitled to your opinion no matter how misguided it may be.

      • SteveH 18/05/2019 at 12:23 pm · ·
        You are entitled to your opinion no matter how misguided it may be.

        https://labour.org.uk/issues/labours-plan-brexit/

        Where does it say 2nd referendum on that page I linked?

        It doesn’t…Not anywhere…does it?

        Not opinion,but fact.

        Cold. Hard. Fact.

        So, who’s ‘misguided’?

      • The Toffee (597) at 12:48 pm

        YES REALLY

        The only other explanation would be that JC is either too scared or too incompetent to sack him. Not my opinion I hasten to add.

      • You’ve replied to the wrong post but my answer to you is that there’s many others Corbyn could, and SHOULD have sacked before now.

        Ultimately, I fear that will be his downfall. I suppose you think watson’s acting under corbyn’s instructions, too?

      • he Toffee (597) at 1:10 pm

        “I suppose you think watson’s acting under corbyn’s instructions, too?”

        Well no, as any Labour Party member would know Tom Watson is an elected official (elected by the membership) and so Jeremy can’t sack Tom from his post of Deputy Leader. I’m surprised you didn’t know that.

  8. Others may also find this an interesting read.

    Why copying the populist right isn’t going to save the left
    Social democratic parties have been losing ground for more than two decades – but pandering to rightwing anxieties about immigration is not the solution.
    By Cas Mudde

    The key to reviving the fortunes of social democracy is not to pander to the nativism of part of the white working class, but to embrace the ideas and policies that are fundamental to social democracy – egalitarianism, social justice, solidarity, the right to social protection and a comprehensive welfare state. These values represented a widely shared common sense for the vast majority of Europeans in the second half of the 20th century – before their hegemony was eroded by three decades of neoliberal ideas and policies. The only way back for social democracy is to fight to make these values dominant once again.
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/may/14/why-copying-the-populist-right-isnt-going-to-save-the-left

    • I’ve noticed that some people are assiduous in ‘liking’ each other on social media.
      The number of likes presumably reinforces their confidence in their views.
      I feel a bit skin-crawly even suggesting it but I might try to be more diligent in doing the same for those I agree with.

  9. So tell us then. Who gives starmer a free hand to determine our withdrawal or decide we’re to have another referendum?

    83% of 500k is less than 17 million. Even when that figure’s added to the 16million voted remain, it’s less.

    It’s really not that difficult. His brief is/was to make sure we LEAVE with a deal. It was NEVER to have us remain in the EU.

    It just cant be any clearer, for cryin’ out bastard loud – get it into your dense crania ffs

    https://labour.org.uk/issues/labours-plan-brexit/

    ”Labour respects the result of the referendum, and Britain is leaving the EU.”

    • The Toffee (597) at 12:22 pm

      Jeremy appointed him and Jeremy can sack him so as long as he is in office I think it’s logical to assume he’s acting on JC’s behalf.

      • Oh, really?

        Seems to me that the barrister is giving the client the brief; not the other way about.

      • The Toffee (597) at 12:48 pm
        sorry I originally mis posted this reply to the wrong comment

        YES REALLY

        The only other explanation would be that JC is either too scared or too incompetent to sack him. Not my opinion I hasten to add.

      • Trouble is, the media/establishment/security services love him (and Watson) and would spin it to death if he tried to get rid. So patience and cunning are required.

        Meanwhile the electoral cancer spreads…

      • (Reply paraphrased as from above reply to steve h)

        Yes, really! Guessin’ that’s me told then, eh?

        There’s many others Corbyn could, and SHOULD have sacked before now. Ultimately, I fear that lack of ruthlessness will be his downfall.

        I suppose you think watson’s acting under corbyn’s instructions, too?

      • “Ultimately, I fear that lack of ruthlessness will be his downfall”.

        I fear you might be right, Toff. Especially regarding Margaret Hodge!

    • Toffee, that’s a link to a part of the site headed ‘manifesto’. That does not have the same force as the motion passed at conference.
      That motion, passed by a large majority included this:-
      “Should Parliament vote down a Tory Brexit deal or the talks end in no-deal, Conference believes this would constitute a loss of confidence in the Government. In these circumstances, the best outcome for the country is an immediate General Election that can sweep the Tories from power.

      If we cannot get a general election Labour must support all options remaining on the table, including campaigning for a public vote.”
      The manifesto doesn’t mention a public vote because at the time it was drafted the previous 2 possibilities were still on the table.

  10. You should be careful what you wish for Toffee (597) – your comment (11.43) has brought the trolls/”usuals” rushing out of the woodwork! Jpenney has hit the button there: the right/centrists have found the perfect wedge to divide the Corbynites, which is presumably why they were so keen to sabotage the talks so that the gift could keep on giving – right up to the point that socialism is no longer on the agenda and Johnson & Farage are left to divide the spoils. It will be game over but at least they will have got their ball back.

    • You should be careful what you wish for Toffee (597) – your comment (11.43) has brought the trolls/”usuals” rushing out of the woodwork!

      Mate, if steve h and rh are representative of the calibre of batsman that starmer and watson have to rely on within the party – despite this alleged 83% or what have you – then I’m afraid their on a very sticky wicket indeed.

    • “Jpenney has hit the button there”

      Now that really would be an achievement – even if it was only his belly-button.

    • The link you provided appears to be part of a prospective manifesto for a future GE. As far as I am aware the Labour Party’s Policy is decided at conference, has this changed without anyone telling the membership?

      You don’t appear to be very knowledgeable and I sometimes wonder whether you are just pretending to be a member

      Patience is a virtue

      • Except I’ve made it clear on a multitude of occasions that I’m NOT a (current) party member, and have NEVER claimed such.

        How d’ya like THEM apples, Job?

        Patience IS INDEED a virtue, steve…I’m STILL waiting for answers to at least 5 critical questions you’ve swerved. 🙂

      • ”The link you provided appears to be part of a prospective manifesto for a future GE.”

        ‘Appears to be’ or is?

        No matter, as there’s no mention of a 2nd referendum there, mister.

        The all-important line is: ”Labour respects the result of the referendum, and Britain is leaving the EU.”

        Don’t think they’d put that in a PROSPECTIVE manifesto, what with 83% ofthe membership being for having a second vote ‘n’ all.

        Go on, have another go…

      • I’ll ask you again, steve.

        And this time furnish us all with a straight answer,not your worthelss opinion on the (official) publication the question’s derived from.

        ‘Where is the mention of a 2nd referendum’?

        You’re still to directly answer any question I’ve asked on this thread – if at all.

        What are you scared of?

    • @The Toffee “Where is the mention of a 2nd referendum?”

      Will this do?
      “…people may have voted leave – they didn’t vote to leave their jobs – they didn’t vote to have unregulated food – they didn’t vote to open up the economy to Donald Trump and his agenda from the United States – and so we put forward all those alternatives and we will continue to put them forward in Parliament and I’m quite happy there should then be a public discussion and decision on them in the future

      Jeremy Corbyn, 18.05.2019

      • No direct mention of a 2nd referendum, unlike starmer today & unlike steve h seems to think is labour policy.

        So, no – It WON’T do.

        And do YOU want to show me where the mention of a 2nd ref is on that link I provided?

        It’s an official labour communique…

      • So now you insist on those exact words – “2nd referendum.”

        You dispute that the next Prime Minister’s statement “there should then be a public discussion and decision” means the same thing and you believe your “official Labour communique” – a pamphlet with fewer than twenty lines of text – carries more weight than that.

        Your choice, non-member.

  11. I am sick to death of the way Jeremy Corbyn is misrepresented by all and sundry on this and every other issue.
    I am also sick to death of Brexit. This comment will no doubt cause an avalanche of outrage from the ardent Leavers/ remainers on this site who will probably chastise me and explain why we are doomed if we leave /remain.
    However while Brexit is the only show in town for them, millions of others like me are simply fed up with it.
    Our conference policy is clear – a soft Brexit in order to respect the result of the referendum, protect jobs the economy etc, failing that a General Election, failing that a public vote.
    We are not the government and given the parliamentary numbers it is not possible to implement our policy at this time. Nevertheless the above is our policy determined by the membership and if people can’t abide by it then they are in the wrong party.
    Jeremy Corbyn is applying our policy to the letter but of course the usual suspects and others are using it as yet another stick to beat him with. He is accused of being both a closet leaver and a remainer who will prevent Brexit. All nonsense and so very tedious.
    Jeremy is trying to achieve a compromise that will be acceptable to the millions of ordinary people who voted leave and remain and who are facing real hardship under an uncaring Tory government . That is his priority and it should be ours too.

    • Spot on
      Reason I voted leave was nothing to with immigration or disaster master No Dealers it was
      To allow us to implement our manifesto commitments and get out of the neo liberal EU
      If your serious about ending Austerity it’s a no brainer

      • I think that last sentence should read : “f your serious about deepening Austerity it’s a no brainer”

        … because that’s what the project is for – as an adjunct to filling the boots of the 1%.

  12. SteveH 18/05/2019 at 1:19 pm · ·
    he Toffee (597) at 1:10 pm

    “I suppose you think watson’s acting under corbyn’s instructions, too?”

    Well no, as any Labour Party member would know Tom Watson is an elected official (elected by the membership) and so Jeremy can’t sack Tom from his post of Deputy Leader. I’m surprised you didn’t know that.

    *sighs*

    You’re not stupid so I’ll read this as another one of your desperate measures.

    You weren’t asked whether Corbyn could (or should) sack watson.

    I’ll ask you again:

    ”I suppose you think watson’s acting under corbyn’s instructions, too?”

    Straight answer to ^^^THIS^^^ question. No more of your obfuscation and circumvention; it’s already tiresome enough.

    • I’ve given you a straightforward answer if you choose to misconstrue it that’s entirely up-to you.

      Surely you’re not stupid enough to think I am reluctant to criticise Watson. Just to clarify as far as I am concerned Tom Watson has betrayed every single person who voted for him (including myself unfortunately) and he has betrayed his personal manifesto and brought the party into disrepute. The sooner someone challenges him for his job the better.

      • I’ve given you a straightforward answer if you choose to misconstrue it that’s entirely up-to you.

        More lies – You’ve given me an answer to another question that I didn’t even ask.

        But now we come to the crux of the issue with your follow-up.

        From this, it is safe to reach the conclusion that your belief is that to go against party direction and undemine Corbyn is quite acceptable…. IF the sole purpose is to bring about a 2nd referendum without it being policy.

        watson – being a general prick, bad. 2nd referendum? Oh that’s alright, despite it not being policy

        starmer = 2nd referendum? He’s just acting under Corbyn’s orders, mate…who cares if it ain’t policy?

      • The Toffee (597) 18/05/2019 at 2:50 pm
        More lies – You’ve given me an answer to another question that I didn’t even ask
        Perhaps the fault lies with the clarity of your question, maybe you could try rephrasing it. However I do think I’ve already given you a quite clear opinion on TW..

        “”But now we come to the crux of the issue with your follow-up.
        From this, it is safe to reach the conclusion that your belief is that to go against party direction and undemine Corbyn is quite acceptable…. IF the sole purpose is to bring about a 2nd referendum without it being policy.

        You do a lot of assuming on the basis of little or no evidence.

        “watson – being a general prick, bad. 2nd referendum? Oh that’s alright, despite it not being policy”
        I have no idea what you are prattling on about as far as I am concerned policy was decided at conference and until you can show me a motion that has overturned that conference decision then that will as far as I’m concerned be current party policy.

        ” starmer = 2nd referendum? He’s just acting under Corbyn’s orders, mate…who cares if it ain’t policy?”
        But that isn’t what I said is it. Accuracy is important.

  13. ‘Ere steve…

    remember yesterday when you castigated me for my use of foul language accused me of running away when things get difficult??
    ————————————————————————————

    SteveH 17/05/2019 at 6:56 pm · ·
    The Toffee (597) 17/05/2019 at 6:41 pm

    Oopsie daisy, things have got difficult again, time to throw a few insults around before retreating to the safe space under the duvet.

    ——————————————————-

    Well guess what? Today I’ve moderated me bad language and you haven’t even deigned to give me an answer to most of the questions you’ve been asked.

    Remember that time a few weeks back when you DEMANDED I debated you and answer your questions? (Which I already had done, but not to your satisfaction, although in fairness at least they were answers to the questions you asked, not questions I made up and made out you asked)

    See the pattern here, steve?

    • The Toffee (597) 18/05/2019 at 2:10 pm ·

      At this precise moment as I work through your ‘wise’ words I am at loss to know what you are on about. patience is a virtue that is apparently in short supply.

      • More bullshit – this time it’s feigned ignorance. No shame.

        You’ve no tricks lef, so why bother? You’re just making an even more grotesque embarrassment of yourself

        You make weaselly screeching look positively lionhearted, tom watson appear intrepid, and margaret hodge honest as the day is long.
        .

    • The Toffee (597) 18/05/2019 at 2:10 pm

      “Well guess what? Today I’ve moderated me bad language and you haven’t even deigned to give me an answer to most of the questions you’ve been asked.”
      What do you want a gold star and a pat on the head for being a good boy. I think I’ve managed to work through all your queries now but if I’ve missed anything perhaps you could list them clearly and explain why my existing answer (if any) is inadequate.

      No I don’t recall the encounter you refer to, but don’t you think that you are in danger of being a bit of a snowflake (I do doubt that I used the word ‘demand’ though). Considering the levels of abuse that comes from yourself (as you’ve admitted yourself) it does seem a little hypocritical to criticise others.

      • ”What do you want a gold star and a pat on the head for being a good boy”

        No, I’ve demonstrated that when it comes to rational debate without being goaded, I OWN you – every time.

        You accuse me of everything you are guilty of yourself. Hypocrite.

        You haven’t answered any one of my questions. One only needs to scroll through this thread alone to see that. Oh, sure – You’ve invented your own questions and attributed them to me while convincing yourself I actually asked them; but you’ve not answered any, and then feigned ignorance when confronted with the fact(s). (Another overused ‘trick’ you and the other knobhead are fond of)

        Oh, and you’ve also offered your opinion of a labour publication instead of answering the question arising from said publication and tried to pass that off as an answer.

        Your wild imagination gave you licence to for you to spuriously attempt to have remain voters bask in the reflected glory of those who gave us the NHS by saying if it wasn’t for remain voter types we wouldn’t have either.

        (Awaits the usual ‘deliberately misquoted’ whinge to rear up AGAIN, from that box of tricks you have that isn’t worth a carrot)

        And you’ve imagined me to be a labour party member, when I have made clear on numerous occasions on numerous threads over the years I’ve been here that I’m not (And never will be while twats like yourself and that other knobhead claim to be).

        When you stop looking down your nose at those of a different thought process to you and essentially telling them they’re stupid and you know what’s best for them – maybe I’ll afford you some courtesy….Maybe.

        Until I’m convinced that’s the case, you’ll deserve every bit of ‘abuse’ you receive.

      • As I said above please list the question you want me to answer (it would probably be best to start a new thread) and I will do my best to answer them.

        If you really want me to answer your questions then the ball is in your court. Please just list your questions in a straightforward way without all the confusing diatribe.

      • You mean you REALLY don’t know?

        Well, here’s a turn-up for you, @rh – your mate, steve h – the intelligent one – has been visibly and irrefutably outwitted by the one you called slow…

        How the mighty havve fallen, eh?

        Last opportunity to redeem yerself @ steve h.

        Where’s the mention of a 2nd referendum in that link I provided?

        I want you to point it out, not tell us what you think about what the link might or might not be for…It’s an official labour publication after all.

        Is there one, or not? Just answer yes or no.

        That’s a simple yes or no – not your usual blathering on.

        Answer the questions as directed, or shut the fuck up and admit you’re an incompetent coward; incapable of answering a simple question …Not that you haven’t already proved it anyway

      • STILL waiting….

        …Patience is a virtue, remember?

      • Do you seriously expect people to believe it’s taken you more than 40 minutes to fail to come across with a straight Y/N answer?

        And you’ll still expect to be respected?

        Joke.

      • The Toffee (597) 20/05/2019 at 4:28 pm

        Well thanks for refreshing my memory but does anyone apart from you care. I would encourage anyone interested to read the entire thread, it made me smile to think back at how you cack-handedly attempted to distort my words. Your problem is that you are too dumb to realise that you were the one that came out of that looking like a prat.

        Carry on digging, this is fun.

    • Yeah, Toff. SteveH does do a lot of demanding of debate, doesn’t he, considering he’s the interloper here!

      • Tim,why is Steve an interloper? Skwawky himself may be a Lexiter but there’s no oath of loyalty required to post here.
        You might just as well argue (which I don’t) that Toffee shouldn’t be on here because he isn’t a Labour Party member.
        This isn’t a Safe Space where you are allowed to post your views and not be challenged.

  14. We are rapidly approaching the point when we must start a new party, The Democratic Socialist Party, with a whole new rule-book and a whole new PDSP. Mssrs Corbyn and O’Donnell front and centre please, time to float the boat properly…too much dead weight on this one

    • According to my old membership card, we are a democratic Socialist party. However, the split over leaving the EU has shown we are (according to RH & Co) 83% supporting neoliberalism and 17% something else.

  15. Labour has had an independent review on voting intentions which showed that supporting a second/confirmatory referendum would lose votes in target seats and those with slim majorities, while honouring the result would lose votes in safe seats, it would not result in the losing them.
    Starmer is always welcome to air his views in newspapers/on TV and he always infers Labour support for a second/confirmatory referendum. Given he knows the damage he is doing and the media is complicit, he has probably lost the next general election for Labour.
    Every Labour MP other than those in marginal remain seats who campaigns for a second/confirmatory referendum is doing so because they want to return it to a centre right, neoliberal party with a middle class core vote, they want to contest the already well represented ground of the Greens, LibDems and Change UK.
    Mr Corbyn is trying to balance politically so he doesn’t lose the votes of the majority of remain voters, who reluctantly understand there can’t be a second/confirmatory referendum, he’s always said he wants “a jobs first exit”, in other words he wishes to negotiate a deal that is favourable to Europe.
    I don’t know if his balancing act will work, but I’m absolutely convinced that Starmer and fellow travellers have already put the next general election beyond Labour’s reach.

    • “Labour has had an independent review on voting intentions which showed that supporting a second/confirmatory referendum would lose votes in target seats ”

      Could you post the reference?

      Thanks.

      • I can’t find it, have a search yourself. Do you not think the party would have done extensive research into voting intentions vis a vis Brexit stance? However, in order to help you, here are the seats Labour needs to gain to win a majority in parliament.
        Constituency (Leave majority) Con majority

        Southampton, Itchen

        31

        Preseli Pembrokeshire

        314

        Thurrock

        345

        Hastings and Rye

        346

        Norwich North

        507

        Calder Valley

        609

        Aberconwy

        635

        Telford

        720

        Northampton North

        807

        Broxtowe

        863

        Bolton West

        936

        Middlesbrough South

        1020

        Mansfield

        1057

        Northampton South

        1159

        Pendle

        1279

        Morecambe and Lunesdale

        1399

        Camborne and Redruth

        1577

        Milton Keynes South

        1665

        Copeland

        1695

        Blackpool North and Cleveleys

        2023

        Watford

        2092

        Morley and Outwood

        2104

        Vale of Glamorgan

        2190

        Crawley

        2457

        South Swindon

        2464

        Worcester

        2508

        Carlisle

        2599

        Walsall North

        2601

        Corby

        2690

        North East Derbyshire

        2860

        Reading West

        2876

        Carmarthen West

        3110

        Rossendale and Darwen

        3216

        Stevenage

        3386

        If Labour cannot gain Conservative seats in England and Wales, then it cannot govern, even as a minority. Labour’s Marginals: 72% voted Leave. Getting a majority would mean capturing 10 remain voting seats, hence Labour’s current position. On average in these Conservative-held seats targeted by Labour, there has been a 2 percentage point swing to Leave, while in the five Labour-held seats, there has been on average no change at all. Expectations that Leavers’ regret will sweep Labour into power are poorly founded.

        Most marginal Labour constituencies (over Conservatives)

        Kensington (swing to remain)

        -9

        Dudley North

        +7

        Newcastle-under-Lyme

        +3

        Crewe and Nantwich

        +2

        Canterbury

        -1

        Barrow and Furness

        -4

        Average swing to Remain

        0

        It is highly unlikely Labour would get a majority unless they also made gains in Scotland. However, backing remain will see them lose badly and people like Starmer have already inflicted the damage, helped by the compliant media.

        This is undoubtedly your preferred option RH, but don’t pretend Labour would have any chance of winning by backing remain.

      • ” backing remain will see them lose badly and people like Starmer have already inflicted the damage, helped by the compliant media.”

        Sorry – but that flies in the face of most evidence – which shows Labour shedding support because of it’s lack of a ‘Remain’ strategy, and gaining aminimal number of previous ‘Leave’ voters.

        As I’ve pointed out, this was self evident in the local elections, where the Leave/ambiguous strategy showed a loss of votes. Conversations that I have had with previously solid Labour supporters have usually been about them deciding whether to vote for another Party that is unambiguously pro-European.

        If any damage has been done, it has been by those who have suggested that previously supporting Labour was to support a manifesto commitment to ‘Leave’ – not people like Starmer advocating a second referendum.

        The core Labour vote is based on ‘Remain’ voters – not working class supporters of Conservatives and UKIP.

    • Labour has had an independent review on voting intentions which showed that supporting a second/confirmatory referendum would lose votes in target seats and those with slim majorities, while honouring the result would lose votes in safe seats, it would not result in the losing them.

      1 million percent, this^^^.

      That’s not to mention the amount of toerag marginals labour’d fail to gain if they allow a 2nd referendum.

    • It is _not_ working.

      I’m just convinced that Labour is here to give the illusion of choice. Those elected as MPs are coining it in, so it makes no difference if they ever see power (apart from personal who. Which is easily massaged by tens of thousands of pounds)

  16. Keir Starmer is echoing exactly what the majority of Labour members, voters and the conference support. And because he has the nerve to say it the Leavers come down on him like a tonne of bricks. How dare the man say anything against Brexit! it might inflame the Brexit fanatics and judging by the comments here from our regular self pitying UKIP and Brexit Party supporters, it has done. They are now sitting at their keyboards seething with anger whilst looking in the dictionary to find the most insulting descriptions they can find to throw at Starmer. What’s new?

    They are going to be apoplectic with rage when they find out what Jeremy said today at a rally in Liverpoool. Before I tell you, for the sake of their blood pressure, Lexiters may wish to leave the room…………

    He said the words that turn Lexiters gammon, HE IS GOING TO CONSULT THE PEOPLE. Yes, I know it’s a bit extreme for some, to actually ask those whose futures are going to be affected for their opinion but never the less it’s Jeremy’s chosen path.

    So Lexiters, get your moans of oppression ready. You poor things, we already know how you believe everyone thinks you are thick racists but the coming weeks and months are going to be hell as democracy waves its garlic and crucifixes at you.

    • Keir Starmer is echoing exactly what the majority of Labour members, voters and the conference support.

      Is it what the electorate support? No. Wasn’t then, isn’t now.

      So, Corbyns gonna ‘put it to the people’ is he? Not as a second referendum, he isn’t; not if he wants to become PM he’s not.

    • ” the Leavers come down on him like a tonne of bricks”

      I think the image is wrong. It’s more like a dribble of runny, incintinent shit. I have yet to read a coherent argument against what he actually said – which was actually the same as Labour Party policy as expressed in the election flyer : i.e. that failing an agreement (which there isn’t), or a general election (which there won’t be), the question is put back to the electorate.

    • Actually I’ve been wrestling with a new motherboard and fresh windows 10 install. Now that’s frustrating and anger inducing (so much to kill and suppress…)

      Nothing here creates anger. Different opinions are good. Its how they are presented that can change.

      I actually now want us to have a second vote (and several more after, because why not?).

      With a second vote confirming the results of the previous referendum, there’s absolutely no excuse to try to push through remain via the back door (Starmers six tests).

      Bring it on!

      • NVLA, if there were a 2nd vote and Leave won again, that would indeed settle the matter. And I’m sure Labour Party policy then would not be to try to keep remain as an option any further. In practical terms, there wouldn’t be any way to do so.
        What that would mean for the country in the long run, well, we’ll continue to disagree on that.

      • It can go several ways. I think there will be a civil backlash if we get some Tory wet dream firesale purring on uncle Sam’s lap. We could end up becoming part of the BRI. We could regress into a turnip republic (too cold for banana’s). Maybe we could pivot into some sort of green/environmental leader. All speculation for now.

        But, if it goes pear shaped then at least I’ll have chosen my fate instead of having it forced upon me with no say in the matter.

      • NVLA, you might be prepared to take responsibility for your own actions, and that’s fair enough. But if we do leave and it goes pear shaped then I’m sure there are a lot of Tory (and further right) politicians who won’t. It will be because it’s somehow been sabotaged by ‘dark forces’.

      • Both sides lie. One of the reasons I’m fed up with Labour is because of what I’ve seen over the last few years. And it’s not just the MPs either, it filters down into the members through local government.

        I’m still convinced that brexit won’t actually happen (the can kicking is an old trick). However, let’s assume it does. There’s going to be angry remainers, and cheated leavers (apart from the odd one or two who want exactly what the “average” Tory wants).

        The hostility towards one another can easily shift to those who really deserve it

      • The only thing I’d disagree with is that it’s not ‘the back door’ – it’s actually the front, and that’s one major reason I support it.

      • No, it is a back door.

        Made to appear as a noble effort, whereas in reality it’s remain in all but name.

        I appreciate that you wish to stay in the EU, but leave means leave. You don’t say I’m leaving home, only to stand in the hallway or porch, do you?

        The referendum really exposed the massive disconnect between Westminster and the rest of the country (both remain and leave). For example, Lib Dems aren’t to be trusted, but they see a way back to power by exploiting remainers anxiety

  17. I agree totally with another “People’s Vote”.
    It genuinely gives people the opportunity to make their voice heard.
    It’s nearly 3 years since the first referendum, when no-one had sufficient details or knowledge to make an informed choice, and provably there were plenty of lies being publicised.

      • Yes – because we didn’t know what we were voting for, did we?

        (And so the circle is completed once a-bloody-gain.)

        *Headbutts wall*

      • Toffee
        Yes, they are using a circular argument. They just repeat themselves and never listen to evidence.

        The frequency of their posts is interesting. They are hammering the site with comments which would indicate they are worried they have lost control of the narrative.

      • It certainly indicates they have an inordinate amount of time on their hands…

  18. The Toffee (597)

    “Yes – because we didn’t know what we were voting for, did we?”

    You said it sunshine.

    • The overwhelming majority of 17m people would say otherwise…Or are you gonna (mis)speak for them again by telling us they’ve changed their minds?

      …In the next episode we’ll be discussing the in’s & out’s of the lies that were told – but only leave told them, apparently. Either that or we hear their fantasy definition of ‘democracy’ for the cunteenth time.

      Its the same rehashed shite brought up by remain, again and again to the point of mental fucking torture. Small wonder people are sick to fucking death of it and want out at any cost, whereas before they might’ve at least wanted a deal struck.

      • The Toffee, at last you’ve nailed it – to the Brexiters the truth is torture, well done.

      • 17m people – a minority of the electorate. Not a majority.

        … and no – many of those people had no idea what the vote was about. That’s patently obvious : a large number regurgitated the falsehoods and distortions fed by the Tory prpaganda press and journalists like Johnson. The evidence has been there since the referendum.

      • Oh, aren’t you dead clever?

        kinell lad, you’re not worth the entertainmet the other two whoppers occasionally give me, so I’ll pass if that’s alright.

        (Awaits retort of ‘rattled aren’t ya?’ or some such similar predictable, boring shabbite)

      • ”17m people – a minority of the electorate. Not a majority.

        … and no – many of those people had no idea what the vote was about”

        This is another that has been done to death, you colossal bore.

        Try something new that you might get a win out of…Oh, that’s right, you’ve got sweet fuck-all,have you?

        Oh, and guess what? 17 million is STILL MORE THAN 16 mllion – AND ALWAYS WILL BE.

        (For those who are still unfamiliar after all this time it’ll be some garbage about 37% next)

      • The Toffee (597) 18/05/2019 at 6:02 pm

        “The overwhelming majority of 17m people would say otherwise…

        You may well be right in your claim that they knew in their own minds what they were voting for but the problem Leave have now is that there is no meeting of minds about what Leave actually means.

      • You may well be right in your claim that they knew in their own minds what they were voting for but the problem Leave have now is that there is no meeting of minds about what Leave actually means.

        In their own minds…Go on, finish it?

        In their own minds they were wrong, you mean.

        And you still insinuate they were wrong; perpetually muddying the waters by crying about illegalities, lies etc.

        We’d more than likely have left by now if it weren’t for your lot stamping their feet and obfuscating about anything and everything. You complain about may kicking the can down the street but you lot have more than contributed to the delay.

        Thought that was a good thing as far as your concerned?

        You’ve no cause for complaint on that particular score, but you think you have about the referendum result.

        Risible. The actions of a spoilt brat.

      • The Toffee (597) 18/05/2019 at 6:54 pm

        I must admit I’m a little perplexed as to what you think you are gaining by playing this weird gotcha game.

        Of course I think that the 17.4 million who voted for Leave got it wrong and of course I hope that if we have a CV enough of theml (having seen what’s really on offer) will change their minds and overturn the result.

        I’m totally unapologetic on this and quite frankly I can’t understand why you’d presume that I would be reluctant to state this. I think I have always been absolutely clear about my opposition to Brexit and my desire to reverse the result.

      • 17m people – a minority of the electorate. Not a majority.

        (Entirely as predicted, all too easy really, innit? Shouldn’t be long until yer 37% comes around again….*Yawns*)

        Once again – a majority of those who voted.

        Your hard shit that only 16 million – a minority – voted remain, and that something like 14.5 million didn’t vote at all.

        No vote = no voice.

        No if’s + No but’s about it, div.

  19. “Is it what the electorate support? No. Wasn’t then, isn’t now.”

    Well – let’s find out : people are free to spoil their ballot papers as an expression of not wanting to take part – and those will be counted.

    Bit there’s certainly enough of the electorate who do want it to justify the exercise.

    • Democracy is about votes. Nothing else. If your side won, you’d be saying that too.

      • Mate, be extremely careful! That’s a dangerous mindfuck game you’re playing there, describing democracy as normal people know it and how the dictionary defines it.

        Pray they don’t cotton on to it, or else prepare to be teleported to another dimension….

        …Ooops! Skwawky, Quick! Delete this post (And Andrew Heennan’s, to make sure 😛 )

  20. Well – let’s find out : people are free to spoil their ballot papers as an expression of not wanting to take part – and those will be counted.

    I’ll finish your sentence for you because I know yo wanted to say: ”And those will be counted as ‘remain’ votes because remain will have had their arses handed to them again and we remainers will once again resort to using the same worn-out cantrip and chicanery”

    Bring yer 2nd ref. I know which way the wind’s blowin’. But promise you’ll shut the fuck up or better still, top yerself if and when your precious 2nd referndum doesn’t go your way.

    One things for certain though, if Labour call for a 2nd ref it’s curtains for a labour Govt. But that’s of little or no concern to you, is it?

    Just come on out & admit it. You’ll feel better for it.

    • Should there be a second referendum that includes a remain option (I leave you to calculate the chances of that) the result will almost certainly be 52/48 or 48/52, solving nothing.
      Of course if remain win 52/48, it’ll be a delight listening to them telling us it’s democracy in action and should be accepted.
      I honestly can’t wait. Especially for the backlash.

  21. I’m gonna take a punt that there is no evidence of Keir Starmer saying there would be a confirmatory vote on any deal
    Not sure about Twatson

  22. The weird thing is that the referendum majority of 1million is greater than the population of 3 EU countries – any single one of which has the power of veto over a population of 510 MILLION.

    Now then, remainers, your mission – should you choose to accept it (Ha! yeah, alright) – is to explain how ‘democratic’ those three countries having the power of veto are, without contradicting yourself about the referendum result being ‘undemocratic’.

    Clock’s ticking…

    • You’ve put a lot of fruitless time here , The Toffee, revealing that pro PV, pro EU trolls like steve h, Jack T, RH, Sabine, are never going to really engage with socialist analysis or arguments in any way. That isn’t their function – which is just to constantly pump divisive pro EU nonsense into the Left-oriented blogosphere , to try and batter that useful “Brexit wedge” deeper still into the membership, to split Jeremy from some of his more naïve middle class supporters , and wreck the Party. The only upside (assuming the four or five constant trolls on here aren’t just an interactive computer programme) is that the group of trolls are wasting much of each day online pumping out dross , whilst hopefully the rest of us spend our time outside living, and hopefully also campaigning for a Labour victory.

      • Thanks JP, I appreciate your scrutiny and commentary of this thread’s events. I had a ‘free’ day today so was content enough to use it to draw attention to the myriad and wide-ranging failures of the pro-remain on here.

        That was the point of my endeavours; attempting to change their minds or methods would be as futile as trying to grow cucumbers on the moon.

      • The Toffee (597) 18/05/2019 at 8:49 pm

        Thanks JP, I appreciate your scrutiny and commentary of this thread’s events.

        Oh! Hero worship, how sweeeet.

      • Ha’penny – your flatulence with the constant use of the word ‘trolls’ for people who disagree with you and substitution of insult for substantive argument is confirmation of the emptiness of your rhetoric.

        Such has a long history in the buzzing gnats of the playground ‘socialist’ fringe (ref. SWP/Militant etc.) – as useful to any real social change as a transplanted udder hosted by a bull.

    • The Toffee (597) 18/05/2019 at 7:38 pm

      Don’t expect steve h to answer – ever.

      Of course I acknowledge that there is no reference to a 2nd referendum on the random out of date page (that you linked to) on the Labour website. A website that I doubt many members use as their must go to site for up-to date information on anything current.

      So f…ing what. The fact remains that Labour’s current policy on Brexit is the one agreed at the 2018 conference, to try and ague otherwise just exposes your complete ignorance of Labour Party procedures.

      This gotcha game you keep playing does little to add to the credibility of your augment. In future try doing a little bit of research first.

      So wtf are you going to do now with this ‘confession’ that you have fought so valiantly to extract from me. Are you going to proudly announce your hollow ‘victory’ to the world. Please be careful to quote my sentence accurately and in full.

      • Sums you up entirely, you cowardly runt. Still no yes or no, still giving us your pathetic weaselly blatherings

        ”So f***ing what” you say – about an offical publication that proves you totally wrong??

        And making out nobody uses that website confirms I correctly predicted of the method you’d use like the kopite cultists use to claim 13 of man utd’s titles dont count because they’re premier league titles

        You’re all too easy, as well a snivelling little shithouse.

      • The Toffee (597) 20/05/2019 at 11:32 am

        What made you think that having a toddler tantrum because nobody wants to play your childish games is a good look for an adult.

        You are making yourself look silly again.

      • Tell you what, soft lad.

        Find me an official labour party communique that says we’re definitely NOT leaving the EU.

        …And then find one that says they WILL entertain a 2nd referendum as a matter of policy – NOT whether it’s on the table IF conditions are or aren’t met.

        I’ve got ALLLL day long.

      • SteveH 20/05/2019 at 12:09 pm · ·
        The Toffee (597) 20/05/2019 at 11:32 am

        What made you think that having a toddler tantrum because nobody wants to play your childish games is a good look for an adult.

        Hahahaha! *Pauses for breath* Ahahahahahahaaaaa!

        Oh dear, soft lad, you’ve already BEEN played like a cheap fiddle and you’re just too dense to see it.

        Accusing me of having tantrums or being ‘scared’ of a second referendum,or even comparing yourself to those that gave us the nhs & welfare state instead of answering straight Y/N questions are the actions of a spoilt, overindulged child, squire.

        But most of all your, absolute whopper that anything published on an official labour party website is invalid because only a ‘few people go on there’ makes you look like some sort of retard.

      • ……And I intend to keep playing you.

        When you gonna answer this question, steve?

        https://skwawkbox.org/2019/05/18/senior-shadow-cab-member-i-blame-starmer-for-northern-problems/#comment-105977

        Patience is a virtue, isn’t it? Oh, I won’t complain about how many more times I’ll have to ask but you could do everyone on here the courtesy of at least attempting to furnish us with an answer, seeing as you come across as the ‘brains’ of the remain outfit on this site ;).

      • So, once again you’ve made an outright refusal to answer, eh? You haven’t even the courage of your own convictions.

        Pitiful and shameful.

        But as you’ve no scruples as well as no intelligence, it’ll be lost on you all the same.

      • Obviously…

        You’re held in the same regard I hold those rat-bastards at the DWP who use any excuse to deny causative links of deaths being down to the disabled being wrongly assessed, sanctions, and UC.

        I couldn’t give a rat’s arse what you think of me – before you throw it out there. Cowards’ views don’t deserve any regard whatsoever.

      • The Toffee (597) 20/05/2019 at 3:40 pm

        You’ve had my answer, whether you like it or not is of little consequence to me. You should resign yourself to it being the only one you are going to get on this particular subject.

        In the meantime whilst we are waiting for you to come to your senses then I’m quite happy to sit back and watch the spectacle of you making a prat of yourself by ranting on and on with your rather weird quest. Have fun!

      • SteveH, I suggest you just ignore him. There’s no point in trying to debate or argue (unless the increasingly baroque insults amuse you). It would free up everyone’s inboxes a bit as well.
        …or you could just respond with one word every time he posts …
        “Splitter!”

  23. In an attempt to avoid Eurovision I’ve been checking the news programmes and on both Channel 4 news and BBC news channel (maybe Sky too) Kier Starmer got prominent coverage on the campaign trail making out he and Corbyn are on the same page re a People’s Vote.

    Interestingly, neither channel made any mention of Corbyn’s speech in Google. I smell that Lizzi Watson (M Hodge’s BBC news editor daughter) rat again…

  24. Some interesting results from the latest polls???

    Best for Britain and HOPE not hate have released the largest poll to date on how the public are intending to vote in Thursday’s European elections.

    Liberal Democrats are now 2 pts ahead of Labour in national vote share (LD 17%, Lab 15%), with the Greens only 4% behind Labour.
    22% of Labour’s 2017 voters are planning to vote Lib Dem at the European elections and 17% Green Where Labour are losing their vote, over three votes are going to remain parties for every vote that goes to a Brexit party.
    The Conservative party are languishing at 9% and in 5th place nationally, polling no higher than 12% in any one region

    https://www.bestforbritain.org/poll_largest_poll_so_far_shows_how_each_region_is_voting_ahead_of_thursday_s_euro_elections

    • … and that gels with the unscientific opportunity sample of personal contacts that I have spoken to. If anything, it may underestimate the ‘Remain flight’.

      • I’d recommend that you have a look at the regional results which are clearly displayed further down the page.

    • Both of these organisations are funded by George Soros, the man who wrecked many people’s opportunities in the 90s.

      Kinda ironic that he’s using the money to now steer Britain in his desired direction.

      Whilst I don’t doubt a swing away from Labour (they’ve brought this upon themselves), the fact is that it’s at best speculation. The only poll that counts is the type we are use to participate in on Thursday

      • I think that the local election results and my and others’ personal observations illustrate that it’s far from just ‘speculation’.

        As to the George Soros demonology – he doesn’t control these surveys.

        And it was the Tories, not Soros, who screwed the pound – he just did what speculators do on the back of it.

        This time round, it’s different – Moggy and friends are on the inside actively manipulating Tory policies in order to make speculative profits.

      • Never voting labour again 19/05/2019 at 11:57 am

        “Both of these organisations are funded by George Soros, the man who wrecked many people’s opportunities in the 90s.”

        Even if this is true then so what, the Tories and particularly the ERG mob have been ruining the lives of generation after generation for decade after decade. Should we then ignore any poll that they commission.

        How about addressing the rather worrying results in this poll rather than going off on a tangent to distract from the actual issue.

        Do you have any evidence that contradicts the findings in this poll.

      • I’ve lost count now. How many times have I told you that polls are crap? They represent what whoever is paying wants. Doesn’t matter how many are asked, it’s not an accurate assessment. Its speculation.

        The referendum polls said remain would win. By 10%. They did not. This is not your average subject, because remain and leave means sixty+ million things to sixty+ million people.

        Do you think focus groups are a good idea?

    • Yes, extremely worrying for our support. Lundiel has pointed out that there are more strongly leave constituencies that are marginals than remaining ones. However, if we lose for more votes from Remainers than Leavers, that probably more than cancels out the tactical argument he makes.

      • NVLA, thanks for the link. Jonathan Pie sums it up very well indeed!
        If anyone doesn’t know of JP, he’s highly recommended. And this rant is particularly good.

      • Keep them coming NVLA!
        (I might have a go at the relationship between the EU Parliament and the commission, but I suspect I’d like to look at Wikipedia first. 😕)

    • The entrenchment of views is now so strong that whatever the actual results, they’ll be spun as favouring whatever your position is already. But I suspect that they will be much harder for one side to spin than for the other.
      I think the the difference between Labour and the Tories is that Labour may be able to claw their position back at some point whereas the Tories have dropped so far that it’s going to hurt them for much longer. Ever an optimistic soul, me.😉

      • The problem is that it’s getting late in the day. I’ve seen for some time the possibility of Labour holding onto, or increasing support by building on Corbyn’s win in the leadership elections – *despite* the predations of the media.

        But what has happened is actually the reverse, with people (particularly younger ones) I would count as easy wins for Labour turning away, feeling spurned and disillusioned as the fictional ‘leave’ (essentially Tory) constituency is chased.. This perception has been borne out by the polls.

        It isn’t too late – but it’s past time to assure the progressive vote rather than chase after the same constituency as the Tory/Brexit/UKIP consttuency that did nothing to assure the growth in the Labour vote last time.

        As to the Tories – they’re in deep doo-doo at present, but I’ve seen them proclaimed near death before, and 2022 is a while away. Let’s face it – if anyone is clueless enough to vote for Farage or Johnson, they aren’t going to be impressed by Labour being a bit soggy.

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