Watson, McDonnell, Starmer, Thornberry ride roughshod over Labour policy. Here are MPs that might save it

‘Take-over’ reflected in sudden push of ‘referendum-first’ plan by front-benchers – riding roughshod over Labour’s agreed policy
Labour’s 2019 conference votes overwhelmingly for the Corbyn/NEC Brexit plan

Hard on the heels of the John McDonnell-driven removal of key Corbyn staff from the Labour leader’s office, a sudden shift in pronouncements by a group of Shadow Cabinet members give an important clue about reasons for what other senior Labour figures are already terming a coup.

Just three weeks ago, Labour’s sovereign body – it’s annual conference of member and union delegates – voted overwhelmingly against the ‘Composite 13’ attempt to force Labour into a ‘full remain’ stance and for a plan approved by Jeremy Corbyn and Labour’s National Executive Committee (NEC).

The approved plan was to hold any referendum only after the next general election and to decide Labour’s campaign position for that referendum only once a Labour government has negotiated a ‘credible’ Brexit deal with the EU.

Corbyn was absolutely clear that any proposal to prioritise a referendum before an election was not the party’s policy, when he slapped down Tom Watson’s attempt to push it:

Shadow Foreign Secretary Emily Thornberry publicly agreed during an interview with ITV’s Robert Peston the following day:

But since the replacement of Corbyn’s key aides, four Shadow Cabinet members – including Thornberry – have publicly promoted the ‘need’ for a referendum before any general election.

And not on Labour’s ‘credible Brexit’, but on whatever far less credible deal Boris Johnson might put to Parliament.

Former Labour staffer Steve Howell summed up:

A senior Labour source told the SKWAWKBOX:

They want to rig the referendum and disenfranchise four million Labour leave voters by forcing them to choose between Boris Johnson’s bad deal and remain, instead of the credible deal that Conference agreed only last month – not to mention millions of other sensible leave voters who want to leave on decent terms.

And of course, it’s a slap in the face for the millions of Labour and union members who voted at Conference to back Jeremy’s plan. They’ve boxed Jeremy in and isolated him from his team – and now this.

What’s the other option?

Labour’s original plan that Corbyn and Conference laid out still stands as the best and most realistic way forward. Ensure a no-deal Brexit is off the table – and then hold a general election, by means of a vote of no confidence under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act if necessary.

In spite of the apparently-coordinated comments by a subset of Labour front-benchers over the last couple of days, there is still no consensus in Parliament for a new referendum. Any attempt to force one will lose – but a Labour attempt to force a rigged referendum against the wishes of members, unions and millions of its leave-voting supporters would be electorally disastrous.

Coming to the rescue?

In March this year, the Commons voted on a motion to hold a new Brexit referendum – and it was heavily defeated. If Labour’s largely centrist remainers, emboldened by the power grab in ‘LOTO’ last week, try to force a referendum on Boris Johnson’s bad deal, the Labour MPs who voted to defeat the March motion – many of whom then wrote to Corbyn urging him to reject a divisive referendum – are:

  • Kevin Barron
  • Ronnie Campbell
  • Sarah Champion
  • Rosie Cooper
  • Jon Cruddas
  • Jim Fitzpatrick
  • Caroline Flint
  • Yvonne Fovargue
  • Stephen Hepburn
  • Mike Hill
  • Kate Hoey
  • Dan Jarvis
  • Helen Jones
  • Kevan Jones
  • Emma Lewell-Buck
  • Justin Madders
  • Grahame Morris
  • Melanie Onn
  • Stephanie Peacock
  • Dennis Skinner
  • Ruth Smeeth
  • Laura Smith
  • Gareth Snell
  • John Spellar
  • Graham Stringer
  • Derek Twigg
  • Tracy Brabin
  • Julie Cooper
  • Judith Cummins
  • Gloria De Piero
  • Chris Evans
  • Mary Glindon
  • Andrew Gwynne
  • Carolyn Harris
  • Mike Kane
  • Stephen Kinnock
  • Ian Lavery
  • Liz McInnes
  • Jim McMahon
  • Ian Mearns
  • Lisa Nandy
  • Jo Platt
  • Paula Sheriff
  • Jon Trickett

For the sake of party – and national – democracy, they need to be joined by every Labour MP who respects the votes of their leave constituents to ensure that both leave and remain voters are presented with a meaningful choice under a Labour government and not a ‘rigged’ outcome.

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99 responses to “Watson, McDonnell, Starmer, Thornberry ride roughshod over Labour policy. Here are MPs that might save it

  1. This is a false premise being presented by Skwawkbox. Complaining that another referendum will be unfair to Leave voters, ignores the wishes of Remain voters and without a referendum how do we know how many are on each side? A referendum is the only way to be fair to both sides.

    Personally, I’d ditch Brexit altogether and satisfy the 80% the media keep telling us are fed up and just want it over!

  2. Here we go again – more Lexitory exaggeration and confabulation working against a Labour win. I thought some lessons about the incompetence of sowing dissension might have been learned around the disappearing post about Fisher’s resignation.

    • I’m rather amused by some of names in Skwawkbox’s list of his new allies.

      • Not as amused as I am reading the increasingly frequent and desperate posts of you and your fellow Liberal Democrat trolls, RH and JackT.

        The stench of troll coming off you three is overwhelming.

        You don’t respect the referendum result and you don’t respect democratically decided party policy.

        You are certainly not democrats. You are sinister and malevolent individuals.

      • “The stench of troll … You are sinister and malevolent individuals.” etc.

        Translation : “Yaddah, yaddah, yaddah”. (Kevin speak)

        Even in Johnson’s UK, you don’t *have* to be a twat.

    • Internal Affairs, it’s been obvious from the start that Brexit fanatics such as yourself become increasingly abusive as your delusion of an isolated Britain receeds. A referendum is inherently democratic, therefore it cannot be undemocratic. For your information, I’ve been a Socialist and Labour supporter maybe longer than you’ve been alive.

      • Re slur ‘Brexit Fanatics’
        People can vote and believe what they want. But the population of the UK is 64mil. The eligible voting pool is 46mil. Those who voted Remain were a mere 16mil. That meant even out of the eligible voting pool a colossal 30mil either voted to Leave or were content to go along with the majority decision.
        For those old enough to remember, none of these antics designed to subvert a referendum – facilitated by a huge amount of money pumped into the media – would have been tolerated back when Britain voted to join the Common Market.
        We only have MPs because its not practical to have a referendum on every topic, once we’ve had one its not their place to subvert the result.
        If big money is allowed to subvert a referendum result then don’t expect it to allow re-nationalisation either.
        For an democratic internationalist the only option is to respect the original result but campaign of join a genuinely democratic, workers/citizen based pan-national organization at a later date.

      • ” Those who voted Remain were a mere 16mil”

        … and those that voted ‘Leave’ a small percentage more.

        … so that a constitutional change was supported by just over a *third* of the electorate – not normally recognized as a sufficient majority for such a decision.

        On top of which, the voting publlic was deliberately restricted, and suspect methods were used in the vote, which was also affected by mass propaganda from foreign and non-dom plutocrats. This was reinforced by the fact that the ‘Leave’ vote was comprised largely of the most susceptible to such propaganda.

        The result didn’t come anywhere near equaling the first referendum, and it was clear that a massive proportion of the electorate didn’t have a clue about the issues involved.

        All of which clearly requires a second referendum based on a more informed democratic vote, and with a similar threshold to the first referendum to guarantee the validity of any proposed change.

        “We only have MPs because its not practical to have a referendum on every topic,”

        I think you need to go away and do a bit of reading around political theory!

      • Disappointing to see some of those posting resorting to selectively quoting part of a sentence, calling working-class voters stupid, presumably subject to false consciousness, and personal abuse about the education of others.
        It smacks of a weak analysis.

      • Bernie 13/10/2019 at 7:09 pm · ·

        “Disappointing to see some of those posting resorting to selectively quoting part of a sentence, calling working-class voters stupid, presumably subject to false consciousness, and personal abuse about the education of others.
        It smacks of a weak analysis.

        Perhaps it would if it were true, but having read through the comments I have been unable to find any instances of anyone calling anyone else stupid. Perhaps you could point out the comments that substantiate your assertions.

      • It’s one of the features of this site that slights are manufactured in order to justify straw-man arguments.

        I searched in vain for any mention of the ‘working class’ being ”stupid’ – a perfect example of the straw man type non-argument.

        … which, of course, fits with another fiction : that ‘Leave’ voters were ‘working class’, when the overwhelming fact is that they were just mainly Tory voters (50% of whim of course being working class – Labour voters in every class voted ‘Remain’)

        Fascinating.

      • Bernie: “or were content to go along with the majority decision.”

        When a landslide is predicted the result is often by a smaller majority than expected because the predicted winner’s supporters don’t feel the urgency to vote..
        Remain was expected to win easily.
        Smart people laughed at UKIP, thinking only a tiny minority would ever be so stupid as to be taken in by Farage or the bullshit on the bus or the bullshit coming out of Johnson, Rees-Mogg and the provisional wing of the ERG.
        Smart people will always tend to underestimate how easily the intellectually-challenged are conned by populist rabblerousers. It’s why you so often see us staring at you open-mouthed.
        It’s disbelief, not awe.

        What we are isn’t “content” exactly but it’s a bit hard to explain… you know when you let a child touch the stove top because it just won’t learn until it gets its fingers burned?
        It’s like that.
        But in a completely non-condescending way, obviously.

      • I take exception to your comments, I am not intellectually challenged & yes I did vote Leave as did all my family & friends. What you fail to grasp is people voted Leave for an awful lot of reasons not because they’re intellectual numpties that is extremely condescending. I am old enough to have voted in the referendum to join the EU the then common market which I voted to join, which has changed substantially, I did not vote to be subservient to what is now EU neoliberalism, the EU has grown into a monster which in my eyes needs reigning in. Another reason for our voting leave where my husband works 80% of the workforce are Eastern European’s & they ask if you can speak Polish when you apply for a job there another reason the EU did nothing about Austerity the Tories foisted upon us then I found out it was because of the EU that the Tories got away with it as it was an EU neoliberal policy in the first place.
        After saying all that, I did not vote Leave to have medication shortages, job losses & the Country split in half & friends fighting among themselves over Brexit, I did not vote to leave without a deal in place ideally a deal that would keep us aligned with the EU ie a customs union arrangement as put forth by Labour.
        I did not take into consideration when I voted leave that the Country would be so split and would now vote to remain, I just want my country back, I’m sick to death of Brexit, I wish David Cameron had never been born.
        I have also read the Lisbon Treaty have you?

      • Stephanie, true to form your Brexit fanaticism overrides your objectivity.

  3. The coups just keep on coming.
    Half of the Centrists live in real fear of socialism, for them the comfort of an EU constitutionally dedicated to neo-liberalism is that it allows them to subscribe to policies that the people want but neo-liberals will not allow. Such as a nationalised, non profit, system of public transportation or an NHS which produces and dispenses its own pharmaceuticals.
    And then there are those who live in fear of having to introduce policies which will lead to capitalist revolts, Boss’s strikes, Bankers sabotage, which only the radical transformation of the Labour Party could resist.
    A Socialist government in the UK will run into the sort of resistance that Cubans and Venezuelans have had to learn to deal with through egalitarian measures and popular mobilisation. It’s the sort of prospect that few politicians, journalists and aspiring members of The Establishment are ready to face.
    Did anyone think that a PLP dominated by those who back Israel’s rape of Palestine would really stand up for the working class in England and Wales? Did anyone think that the MPs, many of them long time supporters of Plan Colombia, going along with the burgeoning terrorist war against Venezuela would be ready to defend socialism in the UK?
    Looking back I see that this was inevitable when, in the aftermath of Corbyn’s victory the membership got stuck on around half a million. That was the point at which millions should have rallied to the Red Flag and swamped the CLPs, and Union branches, with people ready to keep, and I hate to use the word, the momentum going.
    And all the obvious candidates to lend their experience, integrity and principled commitment to the struggle for democracy, within the party within the nation, within the world- the Livingstones, Galloways, Williamsons and others-are sidelined while Alistair Campbell, the hero of Belgrade, Bush’s PR man, is cordially invited back into the party.

    • And here I stand, vindicated.

      I saw this well before hand. It’s _never_ going to stop. The powers that run Britain will not allow a socialist government, and they are determined to give Corbyn the same treatment they gave Foot.

    • Bevan, u have said something i’v long thought.
      ie Jeremy should have struck while the iron was hot!!!
      After his election, with the dynamic energy of the membership with him, Jeremy should have been decisive in stripping the power from the ghastliest wreckers. Failing to do that, while deserting his supporters like Williamson, fed the Twatsons. Even now the iron is still jot enough for Corbyn to act with robustness and courage.

      Sacrificing friends with a misguided and incomprehensible hope of pacifying monsters, only expanded their gluttony. Worst of all, when solid impressive supporters see that they are not the recipients of “kindness and gentleness”, what enticement is that, ESPECIALLY for less firm supporters??? Just look at the post below of “Never voting labour again”!!!

      I am ever an optimist and feel sure that we can extract invaluable intelligence and victory from the behaviour of the McDs. 1️⃣ If JC or anyone doubted the concentrated toxic virulent sepsis of the HodgepodgeofWarmongeringThornyCambellends, WinglessEaglesmisguidedtheycansoaryetNOTevenHopOffTheGround, SelfpromotingOvermakeoveredrainers, MiopicMetropolitanStarmers… if anyone… esp JC doubted the un reformable nature of those serpentine choreographers of resignations and coups, then the last few years should have unshackled them from that flawed hope!!!
      2️⃣ This unshackling must be the impetus to energise the mass membership. It must be the spur to at last excise the cancers gnawing away at the new flesh of our Labour Party reviving its original purpose. A purpose NEVER more vital than now!!!

      3️⃣ Ridding the party of Tories in flimsy unconvincing disguise, as well as those happy to jump ship to the DumDemsTingyCucks, are huge blessings!!! The transparent freeloaders are nothing but parasites and pests on our ship. They are eating our supplies AND enjoying free passage at our expense. AND still sucking our blood. They use their access to Labour Party data to undermine us!!! Let’s be off with them!!! GREAT riddance to foul rubbish.

      Without their deadweight and corrosive nature, we can focus our energy on worthwhile aims… The TANGIBLE NEEDS OF THE MANY. We must nurture the fresh buds of the new membership. It is Jeremy who gave them the sunshine to grow, NOT Blair!!! Under the amateur theatrics of Blair and until Jeremy, the membership wilted, disappeared and died!!! FACT. Scotland was LOST under Blair & Blair lites.

      Corbyn should cease trying to protect that venal shallow lot. Instead he should protect those who support his aims. THAT is kind gentle politics.

      Skwawkie, be untroubled by the trolls. Trolls troll. Leave them to it. That is their nature. In truth when they leave their anti-diluvial fetid swamps to post here, it means you are doing well. Why else would they extract themselves from their place of comfort, the fundaments of every Iraq invading monster they can find??? Why else will they venture into edifying informative places like this???

      The creatures cannot resist us here, because they are stupid enough to think they can discourage us. They are allergic to anything that promises change. They detest anything that is fresh and new and constructive. They are noise at plus, hard evidence and sound reasoning at zero.

      Trolls inspire nothing that forward thinking people would pursue. They are merchants of dross. Traders in the status quo socially pernicious systems. They have zilch to offer, but for odoriferous twaddle, multi-regurgitated claptrap vomited directly into them by the MendaciousMcDudCoopedHarridans, They can only seep their content of sterility, and effluent unsuitable even for fertiliser.

      ToryDumDems post here because even they, are bored by their kind and themselves. So they crave quality company here. It is the tribute that vice pays to virtue. It is a compliment to you… though uninvited, unnecessary and unlike the brilliant informed analysis and reflection of Maria for example.

      So, keep up the exemplary and peerless work Skwawkbox!!! You provide information, knowledge and encouragement.
      Sparkling best quality wishes,
      ♏️♦️♦️♦️

  4. FFS – Circumstances change, a day is a long time in politics at the moment. Labour’s policy needs to be agile and adaptable to those changing circumstances.

    • Do we start changing conference decisions i…Daily…..monthly or when a knight of the realm decides to lead the charge.,,Tom Watson approved so a change must be good,…And all the gutter press support another referendum?Yes lets all smash the Corbyn project and make the democratic socialist Labour party a laughing stock after another referendum before the agreed policy.at conference.Maybe by sheer coincidence we will have Big Benn or that knight of the realm our leader?,And of course Toms done such a wonderful job of deputy leader we might promote him.Why do we always make the mistakes of the past and support a clear and present coup?…neutral on brexit but not on destroying the socialist Labour party!…..What a shit show to start the day?

      • It does not matter a jot because the numbers will never be there,
        To remainiacs if you want to get to a 2nd referendum, then I wouldn’t be starting from here !
        You seriously think Cummings and his glove puppet are going to support you
        REALLY

  5. Quite frankly after being a lifetime Labour supporter, I’m getting to a point where I’m totally disallusioned with the Party.
    This infighting and
    ‘ power grabbing’ is going to lose whatever chance we had of winning a GE.
    Very very disappointed

    • Perhaps the time is approaching when it might be pertinent to consider starting a new Party maybe the Democratic Socialists Party , with Chris Williamson as Leader .
      The infighting is draining for sure but we are just 4 years into a LW struggle for the soul of the Party , Blair and his corruption has had 20 yrs or more to infest Labour . It maybe that we loose this election battle but the drive for a more representative LW Party goes on.If the RW MPs and their supporters think that we will just fade away post election then they are in for a Hell of a shock. The membership I feel will be out for blood metaphorically speaking and those RW MPs lives will become hell .
      There won’t be enough milk supply to keep up with the demand !!!

      • Rob no, that way is the wilderness.
        Try to make Labour left wing democratic socialist – Labour is where most unions are and they still have direct links with many working people.
        If you walk away you give the Right what they want and they win (and ironically lose).
        Don’t give up, step up!

  6. Wouldn’t it make sense to unite behind the ‘conference plan,’ win the GE and then let the Blairite versus Socialism power struggle begin. No10 must come first.

    • Richard Hubbard…of course it would make sense to unite behind conference decisions..But this is a coup and common sense has gone out of the Window in the move to rid the Labour party of our leader and destroy the membership…They wreckers have one objective and its not brexit in or out….just the final erradication of socialism inside the Labour party and the membership.

      • “They wreckers”

        … now, would that be those here who constantly attack members of the shadow front bench?

  7. In the 1940s Labour only nationalised the public utilities because it was instructed to do so by Conference decision. Thereafter leaders started resisting Conference sovereignty – Gaitskell by fighting Conference, Wilson by ignoring Conference, Blair and Brown by having their ministers disown an “unacceptable” Conference policy the moment it was decided. It is a great pity that the Corbyn era has not ushered in a greater respect for Conference and a greater spirit to unite the Labour Party around the policy compromises decided at Party Conference. After all, those who dissent from the policy always have the opportunity to change it, democratically, at the very next Conference.

  8. A referendum before an election would surely require a pro-referendum government in order to organise that referendum, so presumably Labour would sign up to installing Jo Swinson, Ken Clarke, Dame Margaret Beckett, Harriet Harman or whoever as Prime Minister.

    One wonders how Labour installing an Establishment government without a general election will go down with the voters.

    • I agree with Danny’s comments, but will add that there are a lot of questions being begged by this article.

      I had naively assumed that the conference decision was predicated on, or at least influenced by, the idea that Boris wasn’t going to come up with a W.A. deal (the we are leaving bluff). Equally naively, perhaps, I supported it because it could be argued that it showed a modicum of respect to the 52% in seeking to present the country with a credible, negotiated, alternative Brexit to vote on.

      For me, the “we will leave without a deal” scam will have had its effect on public perceptions and has made it a little harder for the PLP, should Boris present us with an EU approved deal.

      If the LP doesn’t wish to feed the perception that they are merely Brexit saboteurs, that Starmer’s alternative Brexit is just a hollow sham, then a W.A. deal that circumvents the border problem perhaps needs to be acknowledged as a positive achievement and surely the PLP must be seen to be judging such a W.A. on its overall merits, or otherwise, rather than prejudge it now.

      If I haven’t got it wrong about conference, I don’t see that supporting such a deal, with the proviso that it should be subject to a confirmatory referendum, necessarily goes against the essence of the conference decision. That’s not to say that trying to get a confirmatory referendum won’t be a well nigh impossible call; in which case the PLP will have to have an exceptionally convincing and popular case against the W.A. if it is to win any subsequent election.

      If, on the other hand, there is no W.A forthcoming, then calling for a referendum with no W.A. to vote on would be absolute madness. I would like to think that this isn’t what is intended.

      • Conference voted on the policy because they understand a great deal more than the MSM or referendum huggers will give us credit for. It will take 6 months to hold a referendum but only 6 weeks to hold an election. Let the consequences of another 6 months of the current toxic political agenda of Johnson and Cummings sink in. It’s about leaving the uK open to a far right coup to consolidate its power. For another half a year of hate and poverty to be inflicted on millions. We can’t rule out a declaration of martial law. The NEED is for an election. Anyone, MPs included, who thinks otherwise is a class traitor.

      • Florence, your comment is helpful, to the point and puts things into perspective. I think i was suffering from pre election anxiety this A.M.

      • … And how I wish that Jon Trickett was Brexit spokesperson rather than the abject Keir Starmer … (see the Guardian interview)

    • Danny you have just spelled out why a coup is on and the right wing are out for blood..

  9. I can’t grasp just what the heck John McD is doing here , I’d expect this from the usual suspects and dismiss them as normal , but I just don’t know what he’s thinking or where he’s going with this other than a defeat at the election ballot box.
    Conference decisions are sovereign or we don’t have a Party or at least a democratic one .
    There is still so very much wrong with Labour at the higher levels that as ordinary members I feel we could do better with e.g the disciplinary rules and their implementation/interpretation.

    • … and I can’t grasp what he was ever doing talking about JC standing down if we lose – that just feeds the impression that we are contemplating losing and that Jeremy is on his last gasp – the habitual, J.Mc.D. ineptness, or perhaps the unkindest cut?

    • Rob, I share your bewilderment. One way to understand it is to be aware that J Mc has a completely different view on how to handle the A/S smears than others such as Chris Williamson. This has created a schism at the top. J Mc believes in appeasement and capitulation whereas Chris Williamson believes in fighting back against those in the Party who are trying to undermine JC by smearing him. These fundamental differences run deep and are even further complicated by the Brexit issue.

      • Jack go a read a view point by Chelley Ryan over on her twitter and I ‘ll think that corroborates your point

    • I expressed my suspicions re McD months ago on George Galloway’s program. It was clear even then. McD defending Twatson on radio last week, confirmed my suspicion beyond doubt. He said that we should not question the motives of the Twatson re Carl Beech. TW acted in good fairh and he takes him at his word. I kid you not!!! McD was on LBC or Talkradio saying that.♏️♦️♦️♦️

    • Seems the troll has found a dictionary after all. Remarkable progress in such short time. So soon after my post. Next lesson. Learn to think. Good luck. You are proving to be a student worth some effort after all. Keep at it. And don’t be despondent if you continue to fail re: incisive analysis.

      After all, the earth and all in and on it it, have a purpose, however amebic or even less substantial like you. Try to think about it. Even a cesspit has a useful purpose. ie to contain sewage. And even when a cesspit has a leakage, leaking trolls like you, even that is helpful. From time to time some may need reminding re what fills it. Trolls like you RH, your type and your tripe.

  10. Sorry, but it looks like Boris is going to get an atrociously reactionary deal through parliament off the back of 19 rw Labour MPs voting for it. If that happens there’s a strong possibility of the Tories winning the election having delivered Brexit. Watson’s support for a referendum is an attempt to undermine the leadership (and its timing during conference was designed to cause trouble) but it’s shortsighted to tar McDonnell with the same brush.

  11. Acting outside the mandate – once again.

    Wholeheartedly supported by the three ‘democrats’ infesting the site. Yes – they, completely incapable of counting, who believe that ignoring 17m people is ‘democracy’.

    And who also believe that steamrollering through policy without it being passed by congress is also defines ‘democracy’.

    See at the top of the comments section how they scurry around looking for distraction and obfuscation and deflection of blame for their shithousery.

    Oh they’re ‘social democrats’ alright – BUT – only if you’re part of their society rather than society at large, and democratic when they say it’s democratic.

    • ” the mandate ”

      For information – that’s the support I choose to give to the Party in subs – not the other way round. I do my own thinking, thank you very much.

      • that is Spot on to the Toffee, NOT to the ever-present Troll RH
        ♏️♦️♦️♦️

      • That is “Spot on” to the Toffee!!! NOT RH the LibDem Troll.
        ♏️♦️♦️♦️

    • Toffee, how do you know there are still 17million+ who still support Brexit? The truth is you are terrified of putting it to the test in a new vote in case the Brexit you and the other fanatical Lexiters here crave falls flat on it’s face.

      • How do YOU KNOW there AREN’T 17m?

        And don’t bother with the default, tedious to the point of bringing on homicidal tendencies answer of: ‘Well let’s have another referendum and find out’

        Nobody’s ‘terrified’ you complete klutz – they’re either bored to fucking tears or frustrated that fuck-all’s being done because of whingeing little shitehawks like you.

        And you can get to fuck with your complaining about my language and ‘ad hominems.’ You deliberately annoy me so you deserve it.

      • Toffee, just a tiny hint of an anger management problem there friend. It’s normally only Zionists who tend to blow their top at me like that. I hope you manage to get some help. Have a nice day.

      • Hahaha…. ‘kinell!

        I’m a zionist now?! That’s brutal that, jack. I s’pose I’ll be an extremist member of the knesset by next week.

        ‘Anger management’ is it? You’d be a psychiatrist’s wet dream & pension fund with your OCD about zionism, squire.

    • mcdonnell’s been making all sorts of murmurings then denying them over the last few months.

      Slowly but surely he’s coming out of his shell The denials aren’t as vehement anymore. The words from his gob are slowly metamorphisising into those things he denied previously.

      He’s raised too many suspicions to be taken at face value these days.

    • Mike….If john McDonnell has after all these years gone over to the darkside,then I would loose all hope for the Labour party and socialism.He knows better than anyone what at stake here and his own reputation as well….Friends in Ireland have suggested black ops to me and suggested that i all too coincidental and it was routine to have paid operatives working to bring down their party in Ireland….paranoid?

      • Trust no one.

        There are countless intelligence agencies alone to make someone change their priorities rapidly.

        We’re seeing the isolation of incorruptible Corbyn, and I sadly doubt the membership will be able to save him this time. It’s Michael Foot all over again…

    • Expect more. McD started making dodgy noises many months ago. I suggest people skip TV, read and listen to radio instead. The latter two are far more informative and also radio callers reflect the wider electorate better than polls and the MSM chatterati incl the Guardian and Independent. Beware Rayner also. put a warning sticker on. The present coup was planned many months ago. Every method is being tried at once eg the ruse of “Govt of Nat Unity” with false Labour MPs & Lords promoting Tories & LibDems over Jeremy. And promoting themselves who lost the Lab leadership and two coups against Jeremy.

      The push for Remain canard is a scam to undermine Jeremy. Sadly he did not realise that or thought he could evade it with the most tortuous language (very Gardner language) to create a fudge. Result – Jeremy being strangled as if by a boa constrictor. His scarce breath being used to promote something with which he disagrees.

      I think bold is best!!! Give no ground!!! Nothing to lose. Compromise is a many faceted transaction. If only one participant JC, makes the concessions, then it is not compromise. It is surrender and a pathetic foreseeable one at that.

      There is still time to recover and maintain the hope that Jeremy inspired in the many. First step: Sod the enemies within and their MSM collaborators. Stop the fudges. Protect supporters as the wreckers shamelessly support theirs. What use is inappropriate virtue if its purpose is snuffed out? Why throw pearls before swine?? But most of intriguingly, why deny kindness and gentleness … support to friends while lavishing same on the most corrosive, the most poisonous UNGRATEFUL unrefeormables???

      ANYWAY, only meant to say that we all need to seek out what is really happening. NEVER hope to get useful strategic truth from the MSM esp the BBC and metropolitan shiny creatures. Listen to the office cleaners, tradespeople, teachers, lollipop people, market stall holders, patients, shop assistants, barbers, hairdressers, engineers, the unemployed especially in the Labour heartlands. They and many more can and will give us the lived experience… the hard EVIDENCE of what our country is like for the many. What we need to change to help them. And, clear solid ideas on HOW to change things. They will NEVER recommend fudges. Fudges are little more than a holding pattern of cowardice… A hesitating pilot waiting to be gifted clearance to land or takeoff from his or her own airfield into his/her own airspace. We have to make our clearances. Be bold as the opposition within are time and time again.
      ♏️♦️♦️♦️

  12. The problem seems to be the current alliance between those who one could loosely call Eurocommunists eg John McDonnell, Paul Mason and the more RW or ambitious elements of the PLP including Tom Watson. No doubt many of these have honestly held views about the best way forward to get a Labour govt.. but it doesn’t seem to reflect the views of the active membership who demonstrated their support for Corbyn in the conference vote.

    It all comes down to the difference between those who believe the ends justify the means and those who don’t. In my experience, manipulating the means, never prospers. I’m 100% behind Corbyn and the membership.

    • McDonnell…tagged on the list just doesnt look right litteraly.The man doesnt even have Tory friends and certainly has never been a Traitor.The other 3,well who’s surprised…ITS not in johns background or DNA to be a sell out. .and why now when a lifes ambitions for a socialist Labour party in government is on the Horizon?

    • …..all of them appointed to the shadow cabinet by Jeremy Corbyn and in the case of John McDonnell a long-time political ally and close friend. You either trust JC to appoint his own shadow cabinet and staff or you don’t. Who’s judgement are you actually calling into question. Have any you ever even considered that there may be some people in the Labour party who are attempting to undermine McDonnell to satisfy their own petty factionalism at the expense of the party.

      • There are a lot of unrecognised ironies in these sectarian positions. One is that – if you adopt the position that the ‘Leader’ has some wisdom that should not be criticized or denied, but followed implicitly – because the position is elected, then the same applies to the Deputy Leader.

        … which ends up in an irresolvable conundrum.

  13. As Corbyn is reported to have said “fucking student politics”.

    The various Judaean sects try to circumscibe Labout politics to narrrower and narrower areas of ‘socialism’.

    Meanwhile the caravan passes on.

  14. for another “inside” view I have just been over onto Chelley Ryans ( Morning Star writer) Twitter and it’s somewhat concerning

    • Rob, I don’t follow Twitter but I am aware of Chelley Ryan’s views. All I would ask is that people try to think for themselves.

      In the case of J Mc., I know for years he has been a staunch ally of Jeremy Corbyn and I have had great respect for him. He has views on how we should deal with A/S with which I disagree but I am not going to accuse him of being involved in a coup because of that.

      Chelley Ryan has a large Labour following I believe and her views are cloured by her Brexit stance which appear to be different from those of J Mc. However we should be very careful that we don’t give the opposition i.e. the Tories a chance to take advantage of us, by creating unnecessary splits in the Party when we could simply agree to disagree.

  15. I love Skwawkbox’s list of MPs who helped support the government on one vote (there were more significant ones.

    Any list showing the assent of Stephen Kinnock and Kate Hoey needs to be treated with some suspicion!

    Fear of proper democracy is not a good look for a ‘People’s’ party.

    • Some of the Right Wing careerists on the list in Leave areas would quickly change their tune if they were in Remain areas and possibly vice versa for Right Wing careerist MPs in Remain areas if these areas had voted Leave.
      The tragedy is, what is missing is socialist analysis then arguing for what you believe in based on this.
      And remember Johnson was neither Remain or Leave really only plumping for Leave at the last minute to win the majority nationalist Tory rank and file over the minority of globalists.
      I have therefore come to the Leave cause and also because of democracy.
      So accept Conference policy and we may be in with a shout.
      It’s simple, go for a second referendum and the Corbyn dream is over and millions will continue to suffer and the number will grow.
      If the Right win Labour will probably end up like Pasok in Greece with what 80 MPs and we may witness The Strange Death of the Labour Party in GB.
      Perhaps Johnson may sneak a deal by stealing some of Labour’s clothes (like every policy in the coming Queen’s Speech) but our best hope is in two things.
      Firstly Jeremy continuing to go direct to the people – the Labour Leader as a political teacher.
      And secondly our huge membership getting out on the doorsteps arguing for the brilliant 201 policies.
      Don’t despair Lefties – Don’t Give Up, Step Up! Solidarity!

    • Any list showing the assent of Stephen Kinnock and Kate Hoey needs to be treated with some suspicion!

      Says the knobend that gladly lets watson & starmer act as they fucking well please on bthe issue, without any criticism or scrutiny while deflecting blame onto others.

      I despise all four of those mentioned, so don’t even think about it.

      ‘Proper democracy’ he proclaims…Beyond a pisstake.

  16. We can see the maxim ‘ The left eats its own babies’ playing out perfectly here in some of the comments. Lexiters who believe they are the ‘true’ left are going all out to smear anyone else on the left who dares to challenge their narrow views and ask for just a smidgen of proof that any form of Brexit will benefit Britain. Their frustration at not being able to provide any sensible response leads to them pouring through the dictionary to try and find any abusive term which hasn’t already run its course.

    Hardly any mention has been made of the fact that Brexit could lead to the break up of the UK. Is that what they actually want? To be holed up in their version of a little ‘Socialist’ enclave shouting over the barriers at the rest of us on the left “You’re all wrong, you’re all neoliberals” It’s about time they took off their blinkers and realised the harm they are doing to the Labour Party.

  17. Having listened to Jeremy Corbyn being interviewed on this morning’s Sophy Ridge program I didn’t hear Jeremy Corby rule out a change of policy on the timings of a referendum and a GE

    Sophy Ridge
    “Just to be clear it sounds like you are going for an election first and then a referendum”

    Jeremy Corbyn
    “We will look at any deal that comes up before triggering a GE”

  18. Referendum……okay 17 million people leave?..ignore?Okay don’t want any trouble so we agree….another coup but give peace a chance….okay Today another referendum now and bugger the conference decision..? We are not happy and we will bring down the Labour leader and destroy the membership……NOT OKAY and this time you bugger off and enough is enough….okay?

  19. Do we have ANY Labour Party MPs who actually support LP Conference decisions? Seems NOT. Jeremy Corbyn is being isolated and humiliated by his so-called political allies, including Abbott, Long-Bailey and John McDonnell.

  20. Curious how persistent little trolls shamelessly accuse those who call out the open wrecking of the party and undermining of Jeremy by Twatson & co, as making the party seem disunited. Surely it is the likes of McD chumming up with AC & TW. No??? The trolls really believe that they can deter everyone. Yes, use a dictionary if you must. At least it may give you time to pause and maybe think anew. If you lack the fundamental vocabulary any school child could acquire then read or read more. Then you hopefully not find new words and fresh ideas a challenge.

    A sure sign of a lack of original thought and analysis by trolls is that they repeat the same thrashed to death words and phrases. This is especially evident when one listens and reads the hackneyed froth of the rabid “Oh we can’t leave” cabal. Their noises are nothing but recycled spittle. I know the Tories have closed many libraries. And you love all the Tories doings. But if the vocabulary here challenges you, and you gave no libraries nearby, then try to read your sweet rappers or discarded Sun newspapers or roadsigns, shopping bags, or packaging … lots of it about or the utterances of SwinesomeJpissCUCKS and TINGS they will give all trolls the sorts of words trolls love… Words thant undermine our democratically elected leader of the since his election, to date, the largest party in Europe. That should speak for itself. Any defeats we suffer is due to trolls & their chums in the MSM working overtime everywhere. Why not post on the CUKS’s blogs or Twatsons blogs or TINGE blogs. Why so determined to bring your infestation here??? Out out out vile spot!!!

    This space is for us who will transform this country… though it irks you. Go suck your sweets!!! Those are easy enough words for you? No? Well you are beyond help. You are a lost cause. Not even libraries funded by a revitalised Labour Party can help you and your type.

    Jeremy was elected the leader of our party.

    ♏️♦️♦️♦️

    • “trolls”

      Trans. : “Those who get out a bit more than me and don’t agree with my under-the-duvet world of fantasy.”

      “Jeremy was elected the leader of our party”

      Indeed. Try to separate the concept from the associations of “Der Fuhrer” or notions of papal infallibility. Corbyn (I don’t know him well enough to call him ‘Jeremy’) won’t much like it.

      “This space is for us who will transform this country”

      My sides have just stopped aching at the image of space on numerous billboards outside the town of Scheisshausen.

      Some of us do get out enough to know how much damage has been done among the core vote.by the Lexitory dogma of backing government policy.

    • signpostnotwindchimes 13/10 at 2:24 pm

      I appreciate that English is probably not your first language and bearing this in mind your command of English is quite good but you appear (understandably) to lack an understanding of the many and varied subtleties of the language so perhaps you should review whether you are qualified to offer a critique on other people’s vocabulary and their use of the language.

  21. How splendid!!! The troll has found a book and a dictionary too. Just shows there is hope even for the apparently hopeless. Such swift progress after my post is good. Good student. Next challenge: original thought. Can you manage that. If not, never mind. Even a troll like you, has a purpose. A sign that Lib Dems have even less to offer than some may have hoped just an hour before.
    ♏️♦️♦️♦️

  22. For some days now I have been trying to work out who on the ‘so called left’ would gain by undermining John McDonnell and attempting to manufacture a non existent coup.

    Over the last few days we have had headlines on this blog of:

    Exclusive: senior Labour insiders accuse McDonnell of trying to take control of Corbyn

    Campbell praises Corbyn’s new office manager

    McDonnell urges Campbell to reapply for Labour membership – and calls attempt to remove Watson “fiasco”

    Referendum-first ‘Watson plan’ taking hold of LOTO – ‘pushed by McDonnell’, say media

    Watson, McDonnell, Starmer, Thornberry ride roughshod over Labour policy. Here are MPs that might save it

    It’s beginning to look very like the ‘subtle’ campaigns we normally associate with the more rabid members of the MSM. But why would they be undermining John McDonnell who is a close political ally and personal friend of JC’s . Why would they attack McDonnell who will, whether they like it or not, be a key member of the next government, why would they risk damaging our electoral chances or JC. Do they really think Jeremy would sanction this campaign against his closest political ally and life-long friend. Effectively it is an attack on JC and his judgement.

    Then yesterday I read an article in the Guardian, a couple of sections really stood out

    Charismatic and tough, Murphy often held the combative conversations Corbyn tends to avoid, but McDonnell and others came to believe she was taking too many decisions on her boss’s behalf. As one ally said: “Karie had lapsed into thinking she ran Jeremy. Thankfully that era is over.”
    +
    But after news of the shakeup in Loto emerged on Tuesday, the hyper-partisan website Skwawkbox – widely regarded in Labour circles as Murphy’s mouthpiece – published the entire note.

    (I have provided a link at the end of this comment so that everyone can read the above quotes in context.)

    At first I dismissed this because I simply couldn’t convince myself that anyone in such a senior position could in a fit of childish pique be so f…ing selfish and petty minded. I still can’t quite bring myself to believe it but it is undeniable that it offers an explanation for the flurry of attacks on John McDonnell. Read it for yourself and make your own minds up.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/12/crunch-time-for-corbyn-labour-enforcer-sidelined-as-nerves-jangle

    • I think many of us who are actual long-time members of the Party neglect the obvious – that the Toytown left is some places removed from reality, when not actually a satirical piss-take on Judaean factionalism.

      I hesitate to validate anything in The Groan on this issue – but after the serial cock-ups at Conference (particularly the gifting of the upper hand to Watson) and Fisher’s patent exasperation,at the party games, anything is possible, but the attribution to Corbyn of the comment on ‘fucking student politics’ is entirely credible.

    • Humm well I;ve read the article and my first concerns are
      1.Its the Graun , no friend of Labour and 2.Its Heather Stewart double whammy.
      That does not mean I dismiss the content but I will treat it with a great deal of caution .
      There are real nasty forces now at work not just the usual suspects , and we need to firm up and re-affirm our support for COrbyn AND John McDonnell . The alternatives are … well just unthinkable right now , and I don’t know about anyone else BUT I want to see a Corbyn / McDonnell Govt in power ASAP

    • SteveH, thanks for that, it appears to confirm what we’ve known all along that there is no Brexiter like a scorned Brexiter. Their language and disdain for others on the left with a different view knows no limits. It’s not just the far right who will threaten unrest if they don’t get their way, they will be followed by Lexiters abusing the symbolism of our red flag.

      In spite of the foregoing, I do think that J Mc has said some strange things recently which the Lexiters have jumped on.

      • I’d like Labour to employ clever strategists to work out what will give the best chance of winning the next GE. MPs representing Leave areas are hardly unbiased.

        I read an analysis that concluded Labour would lose seats in Remain areas if they supported Leave. Although if they supported Remain they’d lose votes in Leave areas, these wouldn’t be enough to make a difference to the overall result.

        My fear is that going for a GE first, many Leavers would vote Tory /Brexit Party and many Remainers would vote LibDem, or Green.

        But having a referendum first would get Brexit out of the way so voters could concentrate on Labour’s wonderful policies instead.

        If Leave lost then the Tories’ credibility would be shot to pieces, which should increase Labour’s chances of winning the following GE.

        Ideally, there should be a VONC to bring Bojo down. Then a Corbyn led interim government (which would skip the need for a GE, which Bojo could win) that could negotiate a less harmful Brexit deal and put that to a 2nd vote against Remain & Reform.

        Once whether we Brexit or not will be decided, we could then have a GE based on policies.

        This would still be in line with what was agreed by Conference.

      • Wanda, if leave loses a referendum and things start looking dangerous the MSM will do what the establishment expects, as always – they’ll twist the narrative to blame Labour for Tory incompetence.
        Brexit was an exclusively ERG Tory plan – its disaster capitalist architects, its negotiators and its opportunist contractors, its useless Graylings and its snake oil salesmen are all Tories – but the MSM will make it Corbyn’s fault.
        Just like they blamed “Labour overspending” for a worldwide finance crash caused by the same free market neoliberalism-obsessed, democracy-hating rich people.

  23. The troll obsessed with duvets needs to get back to research, historical facts especially the predictions of Atlee re the EU. Atlee has been proved right.
    Alas the troll cannot grasp such knowledge. Never mind, it is just your destiny as a troll to decay in your LibDemCUK nest of ignorance.♏️♦️♦️♦️

  24. Honestly, I give up, its as if a majority of those holding any position of import within the Labour Party don’t wish to win the next GE – and now we have McDonnell, who owes his position to Corbyn and persons on the Left like me, kicking JC and the Left in the teeth.

    Maybe I should have sat back, indeed, most on the Left sat back and allowed the Centrists to take back the Party via its Chicken Coup, for the let downs keep coming and the members and supporters opinions seem to stand for zero as those holding any authority within the Party do all in their power to destroy it and remove all ‘Hope’ from persons like me.

  25. Jeremy needs to try 1️⃣ – Being bold with his beliefs. Beliefs which attracted > 1/2 million making Labour the largest party in Europe!!!
    2️⃣ – Encourage and be “kind & gentle” to the heartlands + to us at one with his aims. No one can please everyone. So to put it as nicely as possible, Sod the Starmers. Reach out to the many NOT the MSM nor their collaborators like CoyledTwatsons. It has not worked. It will not work. 3️⃣ – Stop using his voice to spout the scum of scroats… eg “Govt of Nat Unity” … BILGE! “Stop No Deal”. No such thing. This stage is the Withdrawal Process. Deals as per Article 50 will be done after. Brexit has always been an open Tory argument. Leave them to it! We should maintain promise to honour the “Open Democratic result” and leave the EU in a meaningful way on 31st Oct. Meaningful – ie Not fudged eg May’s deal or Boris’ deal or JC’s attempt to please the enemies around him like the Retched Hole Troll with tortuous contortions re Brexit.

    It is in the interest of the EU to have a mutually beneficial deal. Plus, if all was honky dory while in the EU, our heartlands would not have voted to leave. The metropolitan perspectives and obsessions and the clear disdain for the grassroots guarantees that we prioritise pandering to the likes of the rigorously moist one č new old always chums – the repellant DibLibTingedCuks or however the creatures are most lately spun…”Govt of National Unity” my Alastair‼️‼️‼️

    Jeremy needs to be on the front foot. Kick out the saboteurs. Bring back the believers. Dispatch slanderous accusations head on. Request hard written evidence for ALL accusations. Let duplicitous accusers take their sludge to the police. Stop being afraid of the MSM, They are, always have been and always will be vile anyway. Plus his “compromises” encourages them. Jeremy should focus on the over HALF A MILLION and the potential millions of others, NOT THE MSM nor pathetic LibDems in poor disguises.
    ♏️♦️♦️♦️

    • Just points of information : “the grassroots” = mainly Remainers.

      ” leave the EU in a meaningful way on 31st Oct” – Interesting Tory propaganda line that is a pure fiction.

      .. and a bit of advice : Immodium is, I believe recommended for incontinence, although how effective for a stream of verbal diarrhoea, I’m not sure.

  26. I have one question.. do Labour actually want to win the upcoming General Election?
    One minute I’m enraged with all the intrigue & conspiracies within the Party, then I read an alternative view, so maybe it’s not quite as bad as I first envisaged.
    I honestly wish I had never become interested in politics & just vote for the party of choice.
    I don’t profess to understand how politics work, I didn’t realise all the wrangling subterfuge that goes on at top level.
    I’m just a pensioner who sincerely hopes & yes prays that Labour wins the GE but I’m becoming more and more disgusted & disillusioned with the antics within the Labour Party, so I ask again do Labour actually want to win the GE?

  27. so I ask again do Labour actually want to win the GE?

    People like us do, Hilary. People who want REAL change.

    Then there’s the likes of twatson, starmer and their lackeys on here who aren’t really arsed about anything but the status quo. As long as they’ve got theirs, nothing else matters.

    And it doesn’t matter HOW they get it, neither.

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