Swinson’s ‘series of calls’ with Johnson belies claim to want to stop no-deal Brexit at all costs
A SKWAWKBOX poll of readers suggests that an overwhelming majority believe that Jo Swinson and her LibDems would prop up Boris Johnson’s Tories – in spite of Swinson’s claim that she will ‘do whatever it takes’ to stop Johnson’s no-deal Brexit – a claim she immediately contradicted by saying she would not support an interim Corbyn premiership to prevent Johnson taking the UK over the Brexit ‘cliff-edge’.
Of the almost three thousand readers who responded, 95% responded that the LibDems would support the Tories again, in spite of the parliamentary near-obliteration they suffered in 2015 after doing so in 2010:
Swinson today tweeted to condemn Boris Johnson’s power-grab prorogation of Parliament to take time away from MPs hoping to block his no-deal Brexit – but her actions and the actions of those who share her worldview have created the space for Johnson to behave as he is.
And it seems a lot of people believe she would switch to supporting his government in a heartbeat if given the chance.
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Only 94.62%?
Were the 153 who professed to trust Swinson just taking the piss?
All very amusing but meaningless, Skwawkie. More importantly, anyone wanting a snapshot view of the policy mess Labour has got itself into over Brexit need look no further than today’s two page Times interview with “our man from the Deep State” , Kier Starmer. In amongst all the waffle is this series of exchanges between Times interviewer and Starmer. With slippery hypocrisy like this rife amongst most now of Labour’s Shadow Cabinet (whether nominally from the Labour “Left” or Right) , there is surely no chance of our Leave supporters in our Labour heartlands voting for such a mealie mouthed bunch in an imminent Election in which Brexit will unfortunately be THE key issue, no matter how much Labour highlights the NHS, etc !
Below is a key excerpt exchange with Starmer:
“……. Sir Keith goes further. “If it comes to a referendum, I have repeatedly said, I personally would campaign for remain because I don’t think there is a deal that is as good as the deal that we’ve got”.
Even if Prime Minister Corbyn struck a Labour Brexit deal with Brussels ? “Let’s wait and see where we are. I personally would campaign for Remain. I think many people in the Labour Party will campaign for Remain.” Which raises the question; why would the EU bother if it knew Labour’s Brexit spokesman would campaign against its own deal.
This is why many believe the real motivation is not stopping no-deal, but stopping Brexit altogether. If they get an extension, what then ?
“We shouldn’t be trying to answer that question at the moment ….”
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/keir-starmer-prorogation-has-forced-everyone-to-ask-themselves-which-side-they-are-on-pgpxhb07k
jpenney 31/08/2019 at 1:26 pm
“This is why many believe the real motivation is not stopping no-deal, but stopping Brexit altogether.”
Unlike infiltrators such as yourself I support the Labour Party reflecting the views of the vast majority of both its members and voters.
You don’t support Corbyn or his policies and you show nothing but contempt for your fellow Labour Party and Momentum members. Why did you and your ‘Tooting Popular Front’ comrades join the Labour Party, was it to sabotage Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership?
Utter bollocks
Even she is not that thick
Lol. You reckon? Course she would, because a) She’s obsessed with power and b) her and her pro-establishment bum chums are DESPERATE to keep Corbyn out of office, because he would represent the people, not the elite.
Yeah that is what we have been telling ourselves comrade but after the EU flip it seems Corbyn is part of the elite and the establishment too, it’s just not what his supporters want to hear.
In fact the EU capitulation was just the end of a long list of retreats, ranging from Corbyn’s helping cutting off Momentum at the knees, failing to back open selections, failing to lead a campaign of deselections to clear the PLP of Blairites, failing to articulate a coherent programme of comprehensive economic planning backed up by public ownership, failing to reinstate Conference as an overwhelmingly policy-making institution and so forth. Fan worship has rather taken the place of realistic political analysis.
‘Corbyn is part of the elite and the establishment too, it’s just not what his supporters want to hear.’
Gotta disagree with this, Daniel san.
Very VERY few (If any, in fact) politicians and ‘journalists’ refer to the labour party as ‘labour’ anymore. It’s all ‘Corbyn’ And especially ‘PREVENT Corbyn’.
Can’t remember the last time I heard them say ‘Prevent LABOUR’ …Can you?
They’ve cottoned onto the fact that the party isn’t the bliarite establishment clique anymore. ‘Course, they’d much prefer it still was, like.
And the weird thing is, they believe Corbynism is some sort of cult; yet it’s THEM what are obsessed-cum-terrified of what the Labour party’s evolving into – Hence them constantly saying ‘Corbyn’ instead of ‘Labour’
As for swindle – voted for toerag policies more times than hunt & gove; Thikns she can dictate who the leader of the opposition or any interim PM will be…If THAT isn’t a pointer towards her burgeoning megalomania, then I dunno what would be…
Whilst it is quite true, The Toffee, that the MSM do indeed currently personalise the Labour Party “enemy” as “Corbynism” , or “the Corbyn led Far Left, Marxist, Party, etc etc “, this is far from peculiar to Jeremy Corbyn. Remember “Red Ed” and his ” Marxist dad who hated Britain” ? and those only lightly veiled mocking pictures of the Jewish Ed Miliband eating a bacon sandwich ? (that was before the mass Tory press decided dodgy dog-whistle anti-Semitism was a bad thing ). “Red Ed” was going to do all sorts of communistic stuff according to the MSM . Ed Miliband FFS ! EVERY Labour Leader but Tony Blair has in fact been demonised as a commie stooge , and the Party personalised by the demonization of the then current leader. My Tory Brother in Law believed to his dying day that HAROLD WIILSON was a Soviet agent !
Those of us , like you, the Toffee, who are socialists, not Left Liberals like most posters on here, (forge the claque of paid trolls) need to take a more considered view of Jeremy Corbyn – away from both the demonization of the MSM and Tories and Labour Right and Lib Dems, but also more critically than the Corbynista fanboy/girl idol worship of too many Labour Party members. Jeremy Corbyn, like McDonnell , Diane Abbott, Lansman, et al, of the old Labour Left, have had a very comfortable well-paid many decades as tame Labour PLP Lefties, licenced to embrace every single “Leftish” cause and pose of the last 30 to forty years , as Labour’s then irrelevant “Left face” – to “attract da yoof” into an essentially moribund neoliberal Blairite Party. The Labour Left have NEVER been prepared to take on the Labour Right , ever, throughout the Labour Party’s history, whether in the postwar period over CND, or during the Bennite era of “alternative economic plans, or the eventual betrayals by the likes of Ken Livingston of the struggle against local government cuts in the 1980’s.
And so it is today – faced with the desperate need to capitalise on the utterly unexpected fluke of the 2015, Leadership win, the ONLY route to transforming Labour from a neoliberal, corrupt, shell of a party, to a dynamic vehicle for socialist transformation, was to take on the sabotaging Labour Right from the first day, and build Momentum into a politically educated socialist mobilising force within, and without, the Party. Nothing in the comfy, backroom deal making, background of the old Labour Left prepared them for such a task. So the tiny Corbyn Circle(incapable of building a wider leadership circle) totally failed to implement such a strategy. Isolated and sabotaged by the Labour Right for over three years, and utterly undermined by a “Corbynist” membership , still as politically merely Left Liberal as it was when it joined the Party, because of the disaster of Momentum, the Labour Left have failed to seize the day yet again, and are now merely the “left face” catspaws of the neoliberal Labour Right and that section of the capitalist class which wishes to continue within the neoliberal trading and political bloc of the EU. “Corbynism” and Jeremy himself have proven to be good with the Leftie rhetoric, but when it came to the crunch, totally lacking in the serious politics and risk-taking bottle to make Labour a radical socialist Party.
jpenney 29/08/2019 at 5:04 pm
Where were the ‘Tooting Popular Front’ when we needed them.
🙂 🙂
They were investigating their own rectums in the dark with the aid of a TOC-H lamp.
Then they got together to discuss which Palestinian front of c.35 AD to join.
They couldn’t agree, so some became zionists instead.
Er… Bollocks to Brexshit?
Apart from the 1906 government there has been scant difference between Liberals and Tories. The former just possess more humbug. It is a popular pastime to paint the utterly pro-capitalist EU as somehow lightly egalitarian yet in reality its capitalist Four Freedoms prevail brutally over any purely token provisions for working people. Witness what they did in Greece.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/08/29/the-fake-workerism-of-remainiacs/
Depressing that Skwawkbox has become a remoaner organ and with it incapable of accepting any criticism of Corbyn.
Danny’s 29/08/2019 at 7:18 am list of Corbyn’s failings deserves debate as does Corbyn’s response to Johnson’s suspension of parliament. How refreshing would it be for JC to announce his support for suspension and for exit on the 31st? Instead he looks increasingly like the rest of the deluded parliamentary remoaners, refusing to accept the – higher – will of the people.
If JC had addressed one of his main failings – unable to mobilise the membership – he could be following the will of the members. If we were properly consulted my bet is that remoaning would be in the minority, that members would support suspension and exit.
John
JC has played a blinder and Cummings and JC are only serious players in the game, all other participants are mere onlookers
Play it out and tell us all what happens next,
All roads lead to a GE, which is exactly what we want, then all bets are off and the people under FPTP will decide,
Under FPTP last man standing takes all
” will of the people”
Err … that’s ‘the will’ that 63% of the said body didn’t support?
You can always tell political bullshit when the tern ‘Peeple Swill’ is used. There’s no such thing, even if Adolf liked the idea and Tories also love.
As a message to Planet Zog : the majority of Labour members consistently supported ‘Remain’. It’s quite useful to get a grasp of the difference between the *Labour* and *Tory* parties!
RH
You can’t say because 63% of people who didn’t vote in the referendum that they did support leave, that’s just ridiculous. We don’t know who they supported because they couldn’t get off their backsides to vote or get a postal vote. Really this remainer nonsense about the 63% doesn’t actually help your argument in fact it makes you look rather desperate.
No, Christopher – you’re in denial. I just stated a simple fact of the percentage of people explicitly supporting Brexit. Which is no basis upon which to make important constitutional decisions.
The referendum was a Tory rat-trap, and I guess, if you want to support the Tories, that’s up to you. But the facts remain.
Of course, the only way out of this now is to institute another referendum, given the flimsiness of the previous one and the previous lack of knowledge that people had.. Not a perfect solution – but about the only one available to retrieve the UK from its position as the duggie of the Western world.
“Biggest democratic vote ever” is the equivalent leaver nonsense fact.
It’s indisputable proof that the referendum hung on people who’ve never before “got off their backsides to vote” in elections.
I’d be ashamed to advance as an argument that the country should proceed as if the whim of the lazy, stupid and feckless was holy writ.
RH
The referendum only happened because a Conservative Prime Minister was afraid of UKIP and headbangers in his own party. If he had stood up to them we would not be having this conversation. As far as me being a Tory I am a Labour member and have voted Labour all my life. I know a stitch up when I see one. You call the referendum a Tory trap? How about all those Labour, SNP, Lib Dem’s who voted for it?
Let’s not forget on the other side of the coin are The People’s Vote campaign with such illustrious individuals as Blair, Mandelson & Campbell who all owe so much to the neoliberals in the EU.
The way out of this is not another referendum that’s past now. No, the only way out of this is an Election and Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister. I’ll say it again until I’m blue in face, you can’t do anything without power!
I know there are some out there in the media on both sides of politics like to blame and have a very condescending attitude towards the 17.4 million who voted leave, we will not get a Labour Government until those people see the bigger picture of how much these people have suffered (I’m sure you can make the case for those in the remain camp) but their communities have suffered since Thatcher not since 2010. These are the people who are going to get Jeremy into power, we had better understand this or we will be seeing a lot of Brexit Party MP’s in Northern towns and cities in replace of Labour MP’s.
We have to support Jeremy and his team otherwise we will see an even worse far-right government than we have now. Time to put the referendum behind us and fight for a brighter future for the many not the few!
Christopher Fox 29/08/2019 at 4:38 pm
I was under the impression that JC had promised that a Labour government would have a referendum on Brexit
Two very different types of democracy are at play with Brexit. 1. the referendum, a form of direct democracy, which could be loosely called the ‘will of the people’. 2. FPTP representative democracy which, unfortunately in this day and age is mostly populated by it’s-all-about-me, I must be in charge, the referendum doesn’t count MPs.
Like it or not the referendum is a real form of democracy, where we all have one vote included all of us labour members who voted leave. Now, can we get on with it …
I’m afraid your ducking key questions about the term ‘democracy’ – which is not synonymous with ‘majoritarianism’.
In fact, you don’t distinguish between ‘two very different types of democracy’ : you conflate them, accepting that constitutional decisions should be made on a FPTP basis, rather than commanding majority consent. Note that the Wilson government had a far more convincing referendum outcome because this essential difference was recognised.
All the blather about ‘respecting’ a referendum result is, of course, just blather, since the essence of majoritarian decisions (as with FPTP) is that such decisions are subject to periodic re-votes that, to some extent balance out the inherent imperfections of the system.
Only frauds and the deluded consider that the referendum vote is incontrovertible.
Beyond the voting process, we have the essential democratic problem of the information reaching the public being filtered by a heavily one-sided media. That also needs a re-balancing process.
Re ‘you conflate them’ – for voters the two types of democracy feel very different. If, for example, you happen to live in a solid Tory seat then voting in a referendum and ending up on the winning side is a new experience. To then be told it doesn’t count by MPs (too long ago, poor info, you didn’t know what you were doing etc.) increase distrust in politicians. With Corbyn now siding with remoan he no longer seems apart from Establishment politics – that’s a real problem for the upcoming GE.
John – The point is quite simple. There is no convincing majority for the Gaderine rush to Brexit – no matter how you tie a ribbon around this parcel of shit.
Even if there were a convincing majority, the fact would remain that the vast majority of hard evidence shows it to be a very, very stupid option – involving subservience to the US and giving money to the already very rich.
There is no ‘socialist’ Brexit on offer.
As to people flouncing around because they couldn’t win a majority : so be it. An amazing proportion simply did what they were told to do by the foreign/non-dom press, and it is indisputable that they had no idea at the time of the original referendum (any vox pop will tell you that).They deserve a second chance.
As to the ‘Establishment’ notion : Leave was as establishment as it gets. The establishment is as split as the nation. All the stuff about ‘Leave’ being a radical option and a revolt is sheer bollocks – it was ring-through-the-nose stuff manipulated by slime like Cummings and Johnson.
The politically aware working class Labour vote was for Remain – that should tell a tale.
“Only frauds and the deluded consider that the referendum vote is incontrovertible.”
Labour committed itself to respecting the result and leaving the EU.
“Beyond the voting process, we have the essential democratic problem of the information reaching the public being filtered by a heavily one-sided media. That also needs a re-balancing process.”
This is, an ancient, argument against democracy.
The truth is that if people vote against the EU without being able to come up with a banal sound bite articulating their reasons for doing so, that is their right. And their vote is as good as yours.
Many voted against the EU for the simple reason that life has got worse for many during the period of membership. Since it got worse because of neoliberal policies-of the kind enshrined in the EU’s basic charter (rejected by the French and Dutch people and then re-imposed) they are being rational in doing so.
If you don’t believe that all voters are equal you should join the Tories and Blairites who feel the same way.
“There is no ‘socialist’ Brexit on offer.
What is on offer is the chance to elect a government which will be empowered to pursue socialist policies without being bound by the neo-liberal rules Brussels imposes.
Bevin, the choices aren’t so complicated.
1 Brexit under Johnson – BAADD
2 Remain under Johnson – bad
3 Brexit under Corbyn – better
4 Remain under Corbyn – best
You can dispute the order of 3 and 4.
You can dispute the order of 1 and 2.
If you believe 3 & 4 are both preferable to either 1 or 2 you’re Labour so just chill.
If you’d choose 1 or 2 in any circumstances you’re a Tory dupe or a troll and you’re wasting your time here.
By ‘you’ I mean ‘anyone’ obviously 🙂
” the chance to elect a government which will be empowered to pursue socialist policies without being bound by the neo-liberal rules Brussels imposes.”
Dream on. The whole globe employs the same principles in trade deals, and, outside the EU, the UK will be less able to negotiate favourable terms.
The whole Lexiteer argument is as substantial as Scotch Mist.
‘Two very different types of democracy are at play with Brexit…’
On hindsight, may be we should have had the Withdrawal Agreement negotiated and agreed before the referendum, only thereafter should we have held the referendum with 3-choices: Leave With Deal, Leave With No-Deal, & Remain. The ‘two very different types of democracy’ referred to above would have been complimentary. The representative democracy would have shaped and defined the narrative, and direct democracy would have provided the final choice.
This will not have been too different from processes followed by some countries when attaining independence. Where they elect the constituent assembly (representative democracy) to draft a new constitution, which had to be ratified through a referendum (direct democracy).
Since that is water under the bridge now, the closest we can get towards remedying the malady is to run the process in reverse, that is, for parliament/government to negotiate and agree withdrawal agreement and take it to the people with the 3-choices.
“This will not have been too different from processes followed by some countries when attaining independence.”
Entirely different circumstances – particularly since Brexit makes the UK more subservient (particularly to the US, China and the continuing Europe) rather than being part of shared treaty arrangements.Independence is about moving in the opposite direction.
@ RH 29/08/2019 at 6:28 pm · ·
Re: Independence analogy.
May be I should clarify that the ‘Independence’ analogy here did not in any way refer to Nigel Farage’s independence , which appears to be what RH was thinking of with his ‘Entirely different circumstances’ comment.
The analogy was more to do with using two sets of mutually supportive means, say, direct democracy (referendum) & representative democracy (parliament/government) to achieve a particular end, say, independence (Brexit/Remain).
Swinson will keep Boris in power because she hates Corbyn. They’ve got form in helping the Conservatives, they publicly say bollocks to Brexit but they will enable a no deal Brexit. And I say to those Liberal Democrat voters who actually want the NHS to survive, social care to be sorted and to help the most vulnerable in society you are going to have to vote Labour. It’s your only choice. But if you want more austerity, more right wing non-elected interference in our democracy then you’ve obviously got no conscience and I despise you for what will happen to us under a Boris government.
This article assumes that the numbers add up. That is not necessarily the case. They did last time, of course.
Any advance for the LDs in the seats they lost to the Conservatives might even help Labour as it would mean that those Conservative campaign resources could not be used against Labour.
If such seats are actually gained from the Conservatives, that would make it easier for Labour to become the largest party.
It is important to bear these facts in mind.
JC and Labour policy is GE followed by negotiations with EU followed by Labour brino v No Brexit in referendum
I fail to see how that is anything other than honouring the result 52/48 and giving snowflake red neverenders a last hurrah
Whats not to like
i.e Stupidity on a bike
The only solution at this stage is to give people the opportunity to not be stupid. It’s called ‘faith in education’.
Breaking News
Met police arrest three men over assault on Owen Jones
Force says suspects detained in north London on suspicion of violent disorder and assault
Thu 29 Aug 2019 15.55 BST
Three men have been arrested by police investigating an assault on the Guardian columnist and activist Owen Jones in Islington, north London, earlier this month.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/29/met-police-arrest-three-men-assault-owen-jones
The outcome of the legal challenge in Scottish Courts has been delayed until tomorrow
The inherent problem with an ill-defined constitution is the difficulty in determining breaches of it. Which is why the (real) establishment likes it.
The whole Brexit farce has been an object lesson in the manipulation of constitutional procedures for sectarian ends, from the referendum onwards at every stage.
pinkpinny at 5:04 pm pours out reams of the same old anti-Corbyn crap while singing his own praises as ‘the only socialist in the village’
Given that he has NEVER offered his choice of an alternative leader only a few explanations come to mind – without giving the question more time than the two minutes it’s worth:
1 he hasn’t a clue – he’s trapped defending a stupid year-old comment
2 he’s scared of ridicule if he comes clean about his love for Hodge
3 his candidate is shit scared of that nice man Corbyn
4 it’s prof. danny and pinkpinny’s his lover and only follower
5 pinkpinny thinks he could do better himself than Corbyn (kidding)
6 pinkpinny & prof. danny are both Tories – like we thought all along.
Come to think of it RH never says who he’d replace Corbyn with either…
” RH never says who he’d replace Corbyn with either…”
C’mon David – you can read and you’re not stupid. I’ve never suggested replacing Corbyn – so why would I float an alternative?
… but I will continue to comment on the reality of things rather than simply indulging in grovelling hero worship. TIndividuals are just that – not the whole Party.
That said, the Party does have a problem with succession – a legacy of the Blair years.
You seem to have got a tad over-excited with your latest stream of inconsequential drivel, McNiven. Masturbating at your computer again, David ? Go and see if mum has got your tea ready yet.
jpenney 29/08/2019 at 7:28 pm
Instead of indulging in rather obvious distraction techniques that only paint yourself in a bad light why not do something constructive and answer David’d query.
As we seem to like polls on here, try this one
1) boris/nigel/no deal
2) jo/anna/no brexit
3) jeremy/chris/brino
Its polling day and time to put your cross on the slip
My pr3diction if Skwawky put this up would be
1) 15%
2) 15%
3) 70%
Will say it again most people just want this cheap and nasty Tory shitfest over with
Doug 29/08/2019 at 8:07 pm
“Will say it again most people just want this cheap and nasty Tory shitfest over with”
The only thing that will end this never ending farce is revoking A50,
So who do you vote for
Doug 29/08/2019 at 11:38 pm
Corbyn + Remain
“most people just want this cheap and nasty Tory shitfest over with”
… which begs the question of what ‘over with’ means. To me it’s simply ditching Brexit and getting on with other issues.
For ‘most people’, … I don’t know, since the whole country is (needlessly) split down the middle, and a large proportion haven’t a clue what it’s all about (probably overlapping with the proportion of the GBP who are quite happy for Mr Toad to crap all over the nation in the cause of ‘getting something done’)
‘mostpeople’ ? = Lowest Common Denominator.
Swinson joins Miller, Major and Watson in legal challenge
The Liberal Democrat leader, Jo Swinson, is joining the High Court action by Gina Miller, together with John Major and Tom Watson. She said:
OH! Well Watson’s joining miller major swansong in court action…..sharing the costs……Could someone tell me who’s funding Watson,…and shouldn’t he get used to being in front of a judge,or is he just practicing?