Analysis comment

Times: Corbyn’s support ‘plummets’ – to the same as it’s always been

Murdoch paper claims ‘collapse’ in member support for party leader – but it’s same as in both previous leader elections

There are defining moments in politics – and one has probably occurred in the attempt by the Murdoch Times on Sunday night to claim that there has been a ‘collapse’ in support for Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn among the party’s members. And not just a claim, but a blaring (or should that be ‘Blairing’) front-page headline:

The ‘basis’ for this claim is a survey by Tory-run polling company YouGov showing that ‘two in five party members want leader to quit‘.

The article goes on:

Jeremy Corbyn’s popularity among Labour Party members has plummeted, with two fifths wanting him to stand down as leader before the next general election, polling for The Times has found.

‘Plummeted’. Right.

Jeremy Corbyn has been directly to Labour members twice, first in the 2015 leadership election and then in the 2016 ‘chicken coup’ challenge. On the first occasion, Corbyn won the votes of 59.5%. On the second, he took 61.8%.

In other words, on both occasions ‘two in five party members’ didn’t want Corbyn as leader – and three in five did. In electoral terms that’s a huge, emphatic majority. And the same proportions apply to the new survey.

The results of those two elections and the Times’ poll are shown in the graph below:

Meanwhile, Tom Watson’s support has dropped significantly, although the YouGov results certainly understate the level of disgust among party members with Watson – and dramatically so. Watson would be humiliated if he was brave enough to make the leadership challenge against Corbyn that some have been predicting.

Add in the fact that YouGov regularly understates Labour’s popularity by several points and Corbyn would score more highly with a different pollster – and the Times article looks like an embarrassing desperate smear.

Embarrassing enough to mark a defining moment? Potentially.

The accurate headline

Twitter user @CorbynHope ‘fixed it’ for the Times, posting an alternative headline that accurately reflected not just the members’ support but the wider context and landscape that has prevailed ever since Corbyn won his first ‘three in five’ in 2015:

Jumping the shark

The phrase ‘to jump the shark’ refers to the point at which a TV series’ premise becomes stretched so thin that the writers introduce ridiculous plotlines in a desperate attempt to hold their viewers’ attention – and the credibility of the show is destroyed.

An attempt to portray a horizontal line – maintained against a ceaseless flood of ‘MSM’ effluent – as a ‘plummet’ is the media equivalent.

Small wonder that Labour continues to lead in voter polls, in spite of the non-stop smears and ever more desperate attacks.

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    1. I appreciate your desperate concern Danny, but throwing away your credibility on predictions of unknowns is just too desperate!

    2. Danny
      Dont entertain fantasy football policy on 2nd referendum, its 1/16 on it happening for very good reasons,
      No one is going to vote for it, so WTF
      Now we can argue what will be our position in a snap GE, methinks the same as the one that got us a record vote in 2017

      1. Doug, (and pimatters) your baseless cavalier dismissal of Danny’s fact-based point, by claiming that the Labour Party position in an Autumn snap General Election will be the same as it was in 2017 , simply ignores reality. Labour HAS now (deliberate fuzzy multi-situational over-complexity in our current Brexit position formulation aside) adopted Second Referendum and REMAIN, even to the ludicrous extent that IF Labour won that snap Autumn Election, before we left, and renegotiated a “better deal” with the EU ( ie, only BRINO – which would still make re-nationalisation of rail and water and power on a unitary nationwide scale impossible ) , we would still be committed to a “confirmatory” Referendum – WITH Remain as an option. And what would Labour’s position be in such a second (confirmatory) Referendum – even with its own negotiated deal on offer ? No doubt at all, that with our current naïve Left Liberal majority membership, including most Momentum members, Labour would support Remain against its own negotiated deal !

        The tragic reality is sadly as Danny has described, Labour HAS indeed , taking away the waffle, adopted PV and Remain, and will most likely be electorally slaughtered in its key, still solidly Leave-supporting, heartland constituencies. It is you , sadly, who are deluded about our prospects as we face a very likely Autumn Election – against a master bullshitter, Boris Johnson, posturing as the defender of UK sovereignty, an end to mass immigration, and promising a Tory fantasy spending bonanza . The middle class Left Liberal “Corbynistas” , in concert with the Labour Right on Brexit, have almost certainly already thrown away our working class Leave voters, and our best chance in Labour’s entire history for a real Left Wing UK government.

        But you guys just carry on thinking everything will be fine. It’s called “whistling in the dark”.

    3. What part of 1/16 at the bookies for a 2nd referendum do you not comprehend
      It ain’t going to happen

    4. The only thing that can prevent a Labour win at the next GE is a civil war between the Remain/Brexit fundamentalist factions. So back off the lot of you and trust Corbyn to do his job.

  1. Sill amazes me that we have such a large minority of deadwood that do not support Corbyn…What do these clowns think the words on our membership card mean:We are a Democratic socialist party:…..Suspect that many of them are old,like me and the arthritis must be stiffling their lodgic…..Very sad and delusional….maybe they should try to get some treatment on our NHS that we the people put forward for the people free at the point of delivery?….They need to get with it and support Corbyn!

  2. Danny their is life after brexit….I voted remain but will accept the view of conference which is to try too sort this unasked for TORY mess and hold all of our supporters together….Let’s fight for Socialism and and a decent society to live in!

    1. If you read the times article it contains figures to support the headline. Whether one cares enough about the times or the criteria used is another thing altogether.

      1. I’m not enamoured of where wordpress decided to place this reply. Apologies Joseph, not a reply to you but the article.

      2. I haven’t read the Times article, but the very first thing that occured to me is HOW would yougov get access to the Labour Party membership. Or do they just depend on people saying that they ARE members, and THAT’s enough proof for yougov!

  3. Ps I meant Leave must take my tablets and not get up too early,I also voted the same regarding the common market all those years ago….seems like yesterday!

  4. One small problem with the survey is – How does YouGov establish that all of the respondents are fully paid up current members of the Labour Party? It’s extremely unlikely that the LP provides them with a membership list let alone the contact details of members. It is the LP after all who holds the only authoritative list of its members and it is hard to see how any reliable survey of LP members could even be conducted without the full co-operation of the LP itself.

    In a recent telephone survey of alleged “LP Members” by YouGov the LP members that YouGov claimed to have polled were admitted to have been “self declared” curent members” or those who claimed to have been a member of the LP within the previous six months.

    So the answer is that in this recent poll YouGov is likely to have based its sample upon people who simply claimed that they were current members of the LP or who claimed that they had been LP members within the previous six months. Significantly it is unlikely that YouGov was actually in a position to establish what proportion of their sample if any was providing accurate information about their LP membership. It simply took all those who cared to respond at their word about their LP membership. As the survey aimed to test the opinions specifically of current LP members this represent something of a fatal flaw within the sampling for the survey.

    But as Skwarwky points out its the Sunday Times’ maths that are even more bizarre. Corbyn won two leadership elections with the support of 3/5ths or 60% of the membership. If we accept the Sunday Time’s claim that 40% of the current members do not support Corbyn – then basically nothing has changed in terms of his support within the Party.

    1. The article contains the figures on which the comparison is made, just zoom in. As pointed out though it’s small comfort for centrists and your comments over criterion are spot on.

    2. Apologies Albert (for my above post), but I see you have covered the issue of membership in some detail (I should have scrolled right through ALL the comments first to see if anyone HAD raised the point).

  5. So many newspapers used to be a good read and informitive even if a little biased towards conservatism…Now they are dross,amateur and fake but still expensive toilet paper… careful you don’t block the toilet and flush twice to get rid!

    1. But the newspapers with the highest circulation were ALWAYS propaganda sheets for the Establishment – ie the Sun and the Mail and the Express – and the Telegraph has ALWAYS been a mouthpiece for the Tories/Establishment, as has the Times for several decades now.

      1. Allan you are right,I don’t read the filth you mentioned! So you are correct.But I like to think only a thicko would attempt to read the papers you mentioned,but thats a reflection on me or the people that read such filthy nonsense!..

      2. I have stopped being surprised at the people who feel that this started with JC.

  6. Canvassing recently in Peterborough a colleague and I spoke to a group of men who appeared to be of South Asian origin. Although generally agreeing they would be voting Labour some did express concern,and some anger,at what they described as Labour politicians only being interested in “Jewish people”. They excluded Mr Corbyn from this as he had apparently quite recently visited their mosque. I mentioned this to our co-ordinator at the time (also posted it on this site). Given the current preoccupation in the media and much of the party with anti Semitism (witness yesterdays educational package) is there a danger we might alienate other groups within our “broad church “. I wonder if anyone is aware of any research showing voting trends among other ethnic groups?

    1. Jim…..You bring up a very difficult subject,and it would get too complicated on here and too long winded.I was brought up in a very closed Catholic community in Lancashire,We are talking 1950s.We had areas that the Irish lived in and associated almost exclusively with Irish and English Catholics survivors from the purge of reformation.We all traditionally voted Labour,and were suspicious of outsiders,We always asked a person christian name and sir name to identify the enemy’s,we from recent memory wary of informers, spys and Torys….thats how it was but we still recognised that The Labour party represented a home for us the old enemy.Times have changed massively for the Catholics English and Irish……but I still believe that the Labour party are the home for many….and your Asian friends will realise that they can only support the Labour party even if they get the very odd collaborator with the Torys…..Sort of a warped assimilation into British values?

    2. No, I don’t think there’s any danger whatsoever Jim, because it’s nothing whatsoever to do with being ‘interested’, as you put it, and everything to do with an ‘anti-semitism’ Smear Campaign against Jeremy and the left AND responding to the falsehoods, and I’m sure that the vast majority of members understand that. YOU have for some strange reason taken it out of its context, which IS of course that it’s the Blairites etc and the MSM that have turned it into a major issue. AND not Jeremy or any of his allies.

      1. And as for witnessing yesterdays ‘educational package’, if you witnessed it properly, then you will know that at the end of it, it says the following:

        Labour exists to promote the social liberation of all people. That’s why we are launching a programme to educate our members and empower them to confront oppression, wherever it arises. Our first materials will be on antisemitism, recognising that anti-Jewish bigotry has reared its head within our movement.

        ‘Our FIRST materials will be on anti-semitism…..’

      2. There’s a tecnical term for that final paragraph :

        “Patronising crap”

        The main need for greater awareness is in the history of Palestine and its people.

      3. Perhaps you could elaborate Richard? And does the ‘technical term’ apply to the WHOLE page, or just the last paragraph?

    3. Jim, I just did a search (on duck duck go) re >jeremy Corbyn peterborough mosque visit< and nothing came up (and it would surely have been covered by local newspapers), so I then did a more general search excluding 'peterborough' and, yet again, nothing came up in terms of JC having visited a mosque recently (just in case the guys you refer to weren't actually from Petersborough). I'll check with JC's office at some point, but in the meantime perhaps you could do a search to see if you can find anything in respect of JC having made a visit to a mosque recently somewhere in the region of Petersborough.

    4. Jim
      There is something I read or heard recently, government funding for security and support is £12 million per year for the Jewish community,
      for every other faith group combined it is £1.4 million
      that does not seem fair

      1. I would very much like to see that £12m figure itemised – is it just me or does it ring false with you lot too?
        I want to know what Jewish events/locations/structures/people have required security and what kind of support other than security is paid for out of the public purse that’s allocated specifically to the Jewish community – and why?
        It seems a lot – are G4S involved somehow?
        Or are the tabloid comics invoicing the government for the AS smears – and are we paying part of that bill? (Oh shit, silly me – of course we are. They’ve probably counted part of the BBC licence fee. Duh.)

        If policing of demonstrations is being counted then I think it would be antisemitic of the Tories to single out Jews if they require ten times more security than other religions – wouldn’t it?
        Is the figure perhaps higher because of the high proportion of Jews who demonstrate with us against Islamophobia and the oppression of the Palestinians, Uyghurs, Kurds and Rohingya?

  7. Humm 2 out of 5 want JC to quit , so if my maths is correct that means that 3 out of 5 don’t want him to ( even if you believe the integrity of the polling Co ) , i.e the MAJORITY , so I don’t see a problem ,, another bullshit story , but then again it’s Murdcocks Times
    Drip drip drip of poison eh Murdcock ,,

  8. Just remember folks, and despite a membership of some 525K plus, never forget the 12K plus former members expelled by crooked McNicol in his Reign of Terror between August 2015 – February 2018, most for the most flimsy of pretext, so, these Polls we can take with a pinch of salt as most members have never been Polled by anyone, and I should know, I’ve been on YouGov books for more than two years and not once have I been approached for my Voting intent.

    1. Chris Rogers ..Thanks for the membership up date,someone on here kept quoting 300,000,which I new was a massive unrepresentative figure of our membership…..Largest political party in Europe! Oops forgot about mentioned europe oops again.

      1. Joseph, I can’t be arsed to go back and look for it – but wasn’t somebody pointing out that 300,000 members are pro-Corbyn?
        Like what’s left when you subtract the 40% of our 500,000 members that the comics claimed were anti-Corbyn?

    2. How many Members are there in Scotland Scottish Labour for some reason won’t disclose the numbers

  9. Corbyn has just threatened any member of the Labour Party who states that Israel is a racist endeavour with expulsion & calls us anti-Semites. This may lead to prosecution as ‘hate speech’…..the law of the land. More like a chapter from Orwell’s 1984. Whatever happened to Freedom of Speech?

      1. Are you referring to a report on the recently issued ‘guidlines’?

        They are a continuing apologetic and contradictory fudge, built on the sand of the IHRA nonsense ‘definition’. But they aren’t the same as Corbyn making such a statement as you suggest.

        I can’t see Corbyn being trapped into uttering nonsense, even if the NEC has set a precedent.

    1. Suppose I’m expelled then,But I was okay when I fought the Afrikaans Boar on apartheid but can’t compare the two because that would be antisemitism……..Shocked and saddened……Okay Netanyahu is a saint and appeasement is a good way to pursue freedom for Palestinians?….God give me strength!

      1. Expelled for what Joseph? Shocked and saddened by WHAT precisely? Could you elaborate.

        In the meantime, this is what it says on the ‘anti-semitism’ webpage in relation to criticising Israel:

        ‘That does not mean limiting legitimate criticism of the Israeli state or its policies or diluting support for the Palestinian people’s struggle for justice, their own state, and the rights of refugees and their descendants. The impact that the creation of Israel had and still has on the Palestinian people means the struggle for justice for them and an end to their dispossession is a noble one; Labour supports Palestinian statehood and a two-state solution to the conflict.’

    2. steve, you posted at 8.59am stating that JC had “just threatened”, etc, so could you tell us precisely WHERE he said it – and WHERE it’s been reported that he DID – and WHEN he said it exactly – ie ten minutes before you posted, thirty minutes, or what.

      If we don’t get a response from you in the next couple of hours or so, we’ll assume it’s complete and utter B/S.


      And as for the ‘anti-semitism’ web page, I’m sure that most members realise it is a strategy so as to be seen to be doing something pro-active AND – to some degree or other – take the wind out of the smearers/plotters sails, as such, and their perpetual attacks (and when I checked in the early hours of this morning, most of the MSM were covering it). So just ignore anyone who’s trying to turn it into something negative so as to criticise JC.

      1. Allan – that web page is a mish-mash of the bleedin’ obvious and the hypocritical – and a re-hash of a *failed* strategy of dishonest appeasment. But I don’t blame Corbyn for it.

        What’s for sure is that no-one will be more ‘educated’ after reading it. And the Israel Lobby will go on shouting ‘antisemitism!’ when faced with the mirror of uncomfortable facts.

      2. Richard, I’ve noticed over quite a long period of time that you regularly find ways to criticise JC – ie you take a negative approach to whatever as opposed to a constructive approach, or a more realistic view. As I said before, I’m sure it’s obvious to most members that the ‘anti-semitism’ web-page is a strategy so as to be seen to be doing something pro-active and, as such, it will help to undermine the constantly repeated smear that Jeremy isn’t doing anything to combat anti-semitism (most of which is non-existent of course). There was a poll just recently in which – if I remember correctly – the majority of those polled thought/believed that Jeremy/the LP was doing what it could to combat anti-semitism in the Labour Party. I think it was something like fifty-something percent agreed that he/they WERE, against thirty-something percent that didn’t *AND* hopefully the ‘anti-semitism’ webpage will go some way to convincing some – if not many – of those that felt that Jeremy and the LP AREN’T doing enough that they now ARE.

        I would suggest that it is YOU who is doing the patronising!

        NB And what is hypocritical about it, and given that it’s quite obviously something that has Jeremy’s full backing, how could your criticism of it be seen as anything other than a criticism of Jeremy DESPITE the fact that you say that it isn’t, and don’t blame him as such. That’s what *I* would call a “mish-mash”, or Double Speak to be more precise!

      3. OK, so you fabricated it steve. I’d say Nice Try, but it was pretty pathetic.

    3. I try to laugh when things are grim. This is sinister stuff. It’s all adding up. Beware and let’s stuff em at the GE.

  10. I’m a LP member and have NEVER been approached to vote in a YouGov poll, neither have any of my CLP, weird that don’t you think? The more the MSM elaborate falsely on the false allegations, the more I dig my heels in.

    1. Ring ..Ring… “Hello I am ringing you from YouGov and I am conducting a survey among Conservative Party members and asking them some question on how they feel about Boris Johnson. Tell me are you a member of the Conservative Party………?”

      It would be too good an opportunity to miss wouldn’t it?

      1. Why is she still in the party Doug? In the first instance, because of the critical failure of people like John McDonnell to come to Corbyn’s support, at a key moment in the dreadful history of all of this.

      1. NOT forgetting the so-called Campaign Against Anti-Semitism and the Community Security Trust.

  11. So 68% of LP members think Kier Starmer would make a very good or good leader and Emily Thornberry has a 59% approval rating?

  12. Don’t they mean the Times would prefer it if Keir Starmer was the leader?

    1. Carlene Edmonds…..Don’t you feel the gravitas and steely determination of the knight of the realm Sir… all his splendour genuflecting,on his knees to our Godly highness who knows those lowness scum and bestows a gong……Now I know Emily the Barrister runs a good second,but Tom Watson still thinks that he deserves somthing…….knighthood,house of lords.any suggestions for these 3chancers

    2. Labour has a dented shield against AS claims and attacks from three Neo-Liberal capitalist forces -Right Wing political forces, the Neo-Liberal Capitalist media, and Right Wing Labour MPs and now Peers. Make no mistake Neo-Liberal Capitalism is in its last throes- it has exhausted profits overseas to the max (in less developed countries by seeking cheaper labour) and in recent years its last hope (as it needs to expand to survive) has been in turning inwards by country (aided by its puppets the IMF, World Bank) and privatisations of the public sector. This is why they all fear a Corbyn Govt and is why they are fighting those of is who are socialists so viciously, the Right Wing Barbarians are fighting for their privilege by we could break the Neo-Liberal chain and give hope to socialists around the World. We have a small number of lions, surrounded by donkeys (including Blairite staff) surrounded by mainly lions with a few poorly read, timid donkeys who spend their time trying to frustrate the lions because they are politically thick and enjoy fighting the left but they condemn millions to poverty.
      The game of politcal cards continues and I would rather have our hand but its frustrating because with our advantage we should be using our more aces!

  13. I really wouldn’t get too steamed up with yet another incident in the MSM campaign against the Party. It’s just the Murdoch press. As said – it’s the spin, not the figures.

    1. Its no good arguing among ourselves, just accept that the msm print a load of fucking lies. The best thing you could all do when you pass a ‘newsstand’ is set the fucking thing alight. That way at least it would serve one good purpose, provide a bit of heat.

      1. Aidey, forgive me for saying so, but we’re NOT arguing amongst ourselves, and we have ‘accepted’ a long, long time ago that the MSM are disseminating anti-Corbyn falsehoods. And yes I’m sure that everyone will take up your suggestion to set newspaper stands on fire. And what about newsagents? Them too?

  14. Some advice team please , I am struggling to understand the difference between the state of Israel as a racist endeavour and Israel as a apartheid state as described by the United Nations …???

    Also on the Labour AS web site it says Labour is a home for Zionists , but I thought Zionists wanted rid of Palestine …. utterly confused or is that the intent ?

    1. Rob,We managed to fit Twatson and his supporters of extremism,So I am sure we can squeeze a.few Zionists in oops forgotten we’ve already got landsman…..yesir wheel am in about a few Nazis,klansmen,,,,,Maybe DUP? We are a broad church?…….Does anyone go to church anymore…..its lonley in the pew!

      1. One part of our broad church would rather see cheap and nasties win than JC get in
        Your spot on there is a limit to who we want in our church, my bottom line is those who dont shit on their own doorstep are welcome

    2. Thanks for the replies folks but I was genuinely asking the question not being provocative . My aim is to be very clear where this line that we mustn’t cross actually is , so that in heated arguments one can still get the points over and not be accused of bullshit AS

    3. ‘Also on the Labour AS web site it says Labour is a home for Zionists , but I thought Zionists wanted rid of Palestine’

      I’m not sure that that IS the case, and there’s a range of ‘solutions’ amongst Zionists, from the hard-core right-wing Zionists to the left-of- centre Zionists, who want a homeland for the Jews, but not at the expense of the Palestinians.

      1. I just this minute had a quick look at the wikipedia entry for Zionism (but didn’t read most of it), and came across the following:

        ‘Kadima, the main centrist party during the 2000s that is now defunct, however, did identify with many of the fundamental policies of Liberal Zionist ideology, advocating among other things the need for Palestinian statehood in order to form a more democratic society in Israel…….’

    4. Rob,

      I appreciate that there’s some irony in both of your questions, but I think there is an important “difference”.

      Doesn’t the UN report refer to a particular racist/apartheid point in its history (that’s not to understate what has lead to that point), whereas the concept of ” … Israel as a racist endeavour” refers to every aspect of its complexity, its history, its connotations, its very existence/and or right to exist (see the post and link from David McNiven above).

      As to your second question, the following paragraph needs a whole lot of unpacking, but at least it addresses your point.

      “There are many forms of Zionism both in Israel and around the world and for many Jews, Zionism represents national liberation. The concepts of Israel, Zion and Jerusalem run deeply in Jewish religion, identity and culture, and for many are symbolic of a homeland, refuge, or place of safety. The sensitivities around these concepts should be considered before using them.”

      I’ve posted on the fact that there are Jews who identify as Pro Palestinian Zionists before and I think the above paragraph more or less aligns with what I was trying to say then; though perhaps sensitivity “around these concepts” is currently a bit out of vogue in the SB comments section.

      It does not mean that I don’t continue to be appalled by the witch hunt and the appalling treatment of too many good people. I couldn’t help but recall the behaviour that holocaust survivor Hajo Meyer had to endure as I read the paragraph that comments on not making comparisons with the holocaust. There are serious and unresolved issues over free speech; that’s for sure. There is evidence, too, that LP disciplinary procedures have yet to conform, even in the most rudimentary way, to principles of natural justice. I’m still waiting to hear on the plight of Chris Williamson and many others, falsely accused for the basest of purposes.

      1. Thanks both Alan and Paulo for the information , I have looked at the WIki page previously and found it somewhat confusing to say the least and gave up trying to make sense .
        I think I’ll try the same question to HQ to see what they say but that may take some time for a response to come through
        I guess Zionism contains many sects just like Cof E , Methodist, Anglican etc , but all with a common theme??
        Its when confronting a Zionist it’s how to identify if they are of the belief of only a Jewish state at the expense of any other peoples , or not. I wonder tho just by asking that question if that may well offend their sensitivities and hence false AS accusations will follow .
        More so do the Zionists agree with the principles of Socialism and of goals our Party ?

      2. Just for the record Paulo, I don’t thing Hajo Meyer was making a comparison with the Holocaust, but with the way the Jews in Germany were treated in the early years of Nazi Germany (with the way the Israeli government treats the Palestinians).

        As for natural justice – and even if the NCC was on OUR side, so to speak – their hand is forced by the power of the media, and THAT’s the problem, as I have said repeatedly. Just imagine the furore – the tidal wave of condemnation – that will erupt if and when Chris Williamson ISN’T expelled, for example.

        As I keep saying, Jeremy and his allies/team are in a no-win situation, and the only solution is for US at the grass-roots level to get the truth out there…….. about Ken, Jackie, Marc and Stan (Keable) etc – and the Panorama black op – and expose the lies and falsehoods and the faux condemnation and hysteria which accompanies them – ie putting leaflets together and putting them through doors.

        And PLEASE don’t believe those on skwawkbox who would have you believe that the general public see through the lies and falsehoods, because millions of people DON’T. Or are we supposed to believe that the smearers/plotters have been completely wasting their time the past four years and, along with the MSM, have been totally ineffective. THAT in itself is a falsehood!

    5. Yes rob – I think the key to the distinctions is found in the technical term ‘hypocritical bollocks’.

      It seems that ‘self determination’ is OK for Israelis with guns, but ‘terrorism’ if desired by the resident Palestinian people bunging a few stones.

      Similarly, claiming mythological rights to a land over a peiod of two thousand plus years is OK, but wanting the house back (for which you have keys) after modern acts of ethic cleansing is ‘bad behaviour’ and racist.

      1. P.S. For a sane and intelligent discussion of the issues, just go to the Jewish Voice for Labour website – much more enlightening than the confused and fearful NEC ramblings.

      2. Yes I tend to agree RH you know I think I’ll fire off an email to the JVL and see if they can help , this is a genuine attempt to understand , aside from the usual hyperbole , the nub of the issue , , then once that is clearly identified it becomes much easier to id bullshit AS charges AND more importantly have the definitive ruling the refer back to in order to call it out as such .
        AND Ironically, its just occurred as I type , that is where we go full circle back to Jackie Walker who I think only asked for a workable definition of Anti-semitism .Stuff me wheels within wheels .

      3. What NEC ‘ramblings’ are you referring to specifically Richard?

      4. And just to confuse even more in SAfrika and I believe the southern states of the US a growing group of fanatical Christian Zionists have been promoting the end of time belief and accumulating Jewish friends and especially those of the house of David descent to welcome a new messiah and the end of times in the city of Jerusalem?.Are they welcome in our broad church.Maybe we should set up a big tent for our tv evangelist The Very Reverend Tom Watson…maybe thats the only way to get rid of.him?

      5. Yes I am afraid it’s all part of the daily drip, drip, drip of the Pro-Neo-Liberal Capitalist forces (aided and abetted by the Right Wing in Labour) to try to break the Corbyn Leadership and us its supporters (the Leaders of the Anti-Racist Movement).
        The Right Wing Stalinist McCarthyites in Labour are trying to make the Left walk on eggshells re AS; I went on Labour’s page on AS and felt it covered everything but on social media suggested adding some books which I had found informative and helpful re understanding and was vilified by a Right Wing political moron but comrades rallied to me and made him look a political idiot!
        But I do worry if we don’t accept the Brexit Result (which would pull the rug from under the Brexit Party and could give us a majority) then we may have blown it.
        So it is up to socialists through analysis to save Labour and to help it help millions of working people and particularly the poor.

      6. RH, as you know, I’m not averse to agreeing with you and you’ve always stood out for me as someone who has cautioned against thinking inside a bubble/echo chamber. I have taken this to mean (correct me if I’m wrong … or maybe not!) that on the SB we don’t need to waste our breath preaching to the converted. Enough said?

        I am sometimes disappointed that you don’t want to engage constructively/ empathetically in a way that make take our understanding forward. When I last reminded you of your repeated failure to engage reflectively with the Zionism of Labour’s official, two state position, you made your excuses and declined to comment.

        However, I fully support your recommendation to Rob re visiting the JVL site.

  15. I see the S*n has got in on the action too and is saying a quarter of labour members would like to see Jeremy go now – which is great news for us because it means three quarters want him to stay at this time. They follow up with much the same figures quoted in the Times so as you say and to quote Theresa May – nothing has changed, nothing has changed.
    I also want to make it clear that I do not buy the S*n .I would not have that rag in the house .I came across the article on line ,

  16. Will Jo Swinson’s election as the LibDems new leader prove to be good or bad news for Labour?

  17. Must be crap tonight being on UC, sanctioned, homeless, in poverty, in poverty pay, in the GIG economy, in extortionayely high private tenting, in housing need. We are with you diverse working class (and young progressive middle class) brothers and sisters (to the tune Oliver’s Army):
    ‘Jeremy’s Army is on its way.
    Jeremy’s Army is here to stay.
    And we would rather have Labour in.
    Than the Tories any day!’

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