As the SKWAWKBOX covered a short time ago in breaking news, the Metropolitan Police Service has announced that it found a ‘bottle’ containing Novichok toxin at the Amesbury home of poisoning victim Charlie Rowley on Wednesday.
This was the day that Rowley regained consciousness.
The twelve days of..?
But the BBC News channel confirmed today that police have been in his home since he fell ill almost two weeks ago – meaning that they had twelve days to search for it and apparently failed to find it until he was awake to tell them about it.
This leaves open two obvious alternatives: that the bottle was too hard for searchers to find – or that police had his home but were not searching it for likely toxin containers, or at least were not searching very thoroughly.
Option two would mean that the police thought a container of nerve toxin might be at large in public in the area but didn’t search the home of a victim who might have picked it up and taking items for testing at the nearby Porton Down chemical facility.
Option one might mean that the item had been hidden.
Both options raise questions that mainstream journalists should be asking, but do not yet appear to have asked. If there is a third option, what is it?
The CCTV footage
In a further twist, unnamed individuals have now uploaded images to the website Imgur alleging a resemblance between Mr Rowley and the late Ms Sturgess and CCTV footage released by police of two ‘persons of interest’ in the vicinity of the Skripal poisoning in Salisbury around the time of the attack:
The video footage is below:
The interview
This information may be relevant to Mr Rowley’s brother’s interview on the BBC News channel in which he said cryptically that he didn’t know how his brother had become ‘involved with that lot‘ – but the interviewer conspicuously did not ask what or whom he meant by the phrase.
Or it may not – but is anyone asking the questions?
If the police are pursuing this angle of investigation, no mention about it appears to have been made to the public. The footage may, of course, have been been investigated and discounted and therefore be no longer relevant to the investigation – but if this is the case we have not been informed of that either.
Nor do the MSM appear to be asking, instead the official explanation is still pushed as the only one, politicians such as Home Secretary Sajid Javid point the finger of blame at Russia and any independents posing these questions are likely to be attacked as mere conspiracy theorists.
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There is a possible third option. That they found it straight away, were going to say nothing, but had no alternative when the fellar came round and asked about it!!
Fair enough, but why would they say nothing and let the media create all the worry and concern that they did in the following days in the local inhabitants of Salisbury and Amesbury and surrounding areas?
And the implication (in your scenario) is that Charlie KNEW that Dawn and himself had become ill because of the substance in the little bottle they’d found, for why else would he think to ask about it. And if THAT was the case, then surely he would have mentioned the bottle they’d found to the medics when they came to his flat after Dawn became ill.
And another point that just occured to me in a general sense…….. I just ‘lost’ it! But I ‘lost’ it while I was checking something out and, in the process, came across the following article about how the Charlie had spoken to the police from his hospital bed – and needless to say the single most important thing they would have been asking him about, is if HE, or Dawn, at some point found a syringe or a container with a liquid in it AND, if so, where it is – but statements made by those in charge of the investigation mentioned in the article give every indication that they DON’T know where it is and that they are still searching for it.
And another ‘general’ point (which I mention in a post way down the page) is that if neither of them knew what the substance in the bottle was, which they didn’t, what possible reason would there be for one or the other or both of them to think to hide it away somewhere? None at all, of course.
Ahem…… the link to the article I mentioned:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-novichok-poisoning-victim-charlie-12893308
Joe?
Just a thought about the couple in the video, which of course isn’t very clear. Given the amount of CCTV there is around these days, it seems highly unlikely that the couple weren’t caught on other cameras around Salisbury that day which perhaps show their faces more clearly.
My theory – not Russian State but possibly Russian or other Mafia – amatuer job and Skirpil had nicked millions off powerful people in Russia plus had blabbed on ex-Soviet spies and had plenty of ememies.
This poor unfortunate couple living in a homeless hostel were known for picking tab ends up and other things and wonder if the perpetrators had the material in a vapour canister which was then discarded after daubing the letter box?
Tragic couple living a tragic life, tragically in the wrong place at the wrong time?
or Bazza – paid them to do it!
Are we thinking crazed mass murderer from Porton Down? It was one of my first thoughts when the Skripal poisoning first broke.
Rejected it mostly because of the tiny pool of suspects – anyone in charge of Porton with half a brain would limit access to agents like Novichok and their constituents to a very few highly qualified individuals.
Those people would know that once it got free their movements, lives and minds would be dissected at length – they’d also know that even the smartest people miss stupid stuff that gets them caught.
Gov conspiracy? Still needs the involvement of Porton and how can co-conspirators’ silence ever be guaranteed without killing them too?
Mad scientist working alone more likely imho but still unlikely unless he’s already incarcerated and the authorities just wanted to find the bottle before releasing info that could empty and bankrupt half of Wiltshire.
New group of terrorist/activists wanting to get Porton shut down? Possible but if they’re smart enough to carry it out we’d know by now.
Skripal senior had it hidden at his son’s grave site and it was murder-suicide? Possible but no reason not to make that public.
Charlie and Dawn as witting or unwitting hit-couple used by MI6 or rogue agent? They’d have been made drunk and car-accidented within hours to avoid loose ends wouldn’t they?
What if Putin was responsible after all? North Korean agents have used “innocent” dupes to kill with nerve agent. All you need are people whose critical faculties are dulled by drugs, alcohol or greed.
David: A bit late in the day I know, but it would be interesting to consider your scenarios one at a time. So first off you say:
‘Are we thinking crazed mass murderer from Porton Down? It was one of my first thoughts when the Skripal poisoning first broke.’
So this ‘crazed mass murderer from Porton Down’ just happened to decide to coat the handle of the front door of a former Russian Intelligence Agent’s house (yes, I know we only learnt some three weeks later that the door handle was the source of the contamination, but given that it’s been three months since THAT was widely reported by the media, I’m curious as to why you would think to mention it at all in relation to Dawn and Charlie). It is of course beyond the realms of possibility that a ‘crazed mass murderer’ just happened to select the house of a former Russian ‘spy’ randomly, so THAT only leaves the possibility of him or her having targeted Sergei Scripal, in which case he or she would have to somehow have ascertained where he lived. And if he or she wanted to kill Mr Scripal for some reason, then why would they do it in such a way that was dependent on it NOT raining at any point prior to Mr Scripal leaving his house (and getting contaminated when he pulled the front door closed)?
BUT, if HE or SHE targeted Mr Scripal – which they must have done because it is of course inconceiveble that he or she just happened to select the house of Mr Scripal randomly – then what prompted you, when the story first broke, to consider the possibility that it was ‘a crazed mass killer from Porton Down’, as opposed to a targeted assassination attempt?
And I couldn’t help but notice David that in the first six scenarios you put forward (two of which are almost identical), you THEN dismiss each one in turn for one reason or another, but DON’T do so for your seventh and final scenario involving Putin. But why would Vladimir Putin think to use innocent dupes, as you put it, “to kill with nerve agent”? What would his purpose be in doing so, and how do you think he went about doing it?
And just out of curiousity, do you have a link – or links – to what these N Korean agents that you cite DID exactly, and how they went about doing it – ie a link to articles covering it?
PS So I take it that YOU think and believe Putin/Russia was responsible for the assassination attempt on the Scripals? Is THAT right?
“PS So I take it that YOU think and believe Putin/Russia was responsible for the assassination attempt on the Scripals? Is THAT right?”
Allan, no it’s not – I just put together a bunch of scenarios to illustrate the futility of forming conclusions with insufficient – or, in this case, NO – reliable evidence.
I don’t give credence to Gov’t or MSM claims but neither do I deny the possibility of Putin actually being responsible.
I’m not wedded to any theory of my own or anyone else’s.
Logic can only take you so far – it’s fun to theorise but I meant to do no more than express an opinion on the comparative likelihood of some possibly possible possibilities.
“I just put together a bunch of scenarios to illustrate the futility of forming conclusions with insufficient – or, in this case, NO – reliable evidence.”
Oh, you DIDN’T point that out in said post. And yet you did it for THAT reason, so you now say, and yet it DIDN’T apply to the scenario involving Putin, and you DON’T dismiss THAT particular scenario based on N Korean agents using innocent dupes etc, etc. Hmm.
So anyway, do you have any links to articles/information about these N Korean agents you cited? Cheers
It’s like you conjured up six absurd scenarios so that you could then dismiss them one by one, and THEN say at the end of it all: “What if Putin was responsible after all?”, and then proffer a totally ludicrous reason for him doing so.
I doubt there are many kids that visit this blog David!
In my initial post I asked you if you think and believe that ‘Russia’ and Putin were responsible for the assassination attempt on the Skripals and finish by saying ‘Is that right’, to which you respond ‘No it’s not’, and yet in your post you proffer a scenario in which Putin COULD have been responsible for the poisoning of Charlie and Dawn (and cite N Korean agents etc). It doesn’t add up David, and is completely inconsistent and implausible thinking on your part.
Anyway, it was very kind of you to take the time and trouble to put your post together with your scenarios “to illustrate the futility of forming conclusions” with insufficient evidence, even though you didn’t mention in your post that THAT was your reason for doing it, and despite the fact that it didn’t apply to your last scenario regarding Putin.
So what you’re saying (in the last of your seven scenarios) is that Charlie and Dawn were poisoned deliberately – ie on purpose – as opposed to being poisoned accidentally as a consequence of finding what they thought was a bottle of perfume? So how do you suppose the Russian agents went about it, and for what purpose would it have been done? And surely if Mr Putin was behind THIS particular poisoning, as you obviously consider a possibility, why would you have any reservations about ‘Russia’ and Putin being responsible for the Skripals being poisoned?
So in the wake of the Sergei and Yulia poisoning, Vladimir Putin sent agents back to the area to poison and kill some drug addicts with the same nerve agent as was used in the Scripal case……… is that right, or at least a scenario you yourself think worthy of consideration?
Allan, what is your problem?
You refuse to believe that I’m waiting for convincing evidence before reaching a conclusion?
You want to assert that I’m convinced the Russians did it and presumably I’m therefore a Tory apologist?
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Why would a person outline a whole slew of unlikely theories unless to point out the fact that there’s not a shred of credible evidence to support any of them – or any theory yet proposed by anyone anywhere?
I thought that was clear enough that it didn’t need explaining.
One can’t logically deny the possibility of Putin or another Russian actor being responsible for the attack on the Skripals – as one can’t deny the possibility of British or US or other involvement.
Is THAT clear enough?
Cui Bono David!
The substance may not even be Novichok. Charlie & Dawn could have taken toxic drugs. Too early to discount another plausible option; police didn’t find it earlier cos they’ve only just planted it. The authorities have a history of dishonesty; Hillsborough, Bloody Sunday, Orgreave, black-listing trade unionists, infiltrating peaceful protest groups, protecting child abusers. There is a pattern of consistency here; consistently dishonest.
You do have to wonder. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least that ‘this Con’s government’ is up to their necks in the mire. It’s not like they’re trustworthy is it? My opinion? it’s all lies.
Yulia specifically thanked the people on the street who helped her and her father. The people in the footage are on the street. Yulia and her father were found on the bench in a park. Perhaps the people in the footage helped Yulia and her father to the bench. Perhaps they were the first on the scene and helped them because they thought they were in a similar situation to themselves. Then panicked when all hell broke loose thinking they may get into trouble.
The reporting on this whole event by the media and government may have driven them to silence.
Forgive me for saying so, but there ARE no options. If it was determined that the two of them were poisoned by Novichok, as we were told they were, then forensic and chemical weapons experts would have gone in there immediately to check the place over for any remnants or traces of the substance AND search the place for the substance itself and, as such, have taken the place apart. Or are we supposed to believe that these experts are so stupid that it didn’t occur to them that Mr Rowley may have secreted the substance away somewhere in his flat, prior to falling ill.
I’m not sure where this post is gonna end up in the sequence of comments, but it’s in ‘reply’ to my post at 12.50am, and this is the thing:
If Dawn had taken drugs of some description at some point, and sometime not long afterwards become very ill, and if Charlie was aware that she had taken something prior to becoming ill, then surely he would have put two and two together and, as such, told the medics when they arrived that she HAD. And given that he didn’t become ill until several hours later, then IF he had taken the same drug PRIOR to Dawn becoming ill, then surely he would have known in advance that he is also likely to become ill at some point AND – at the point where he began to feel unwell – tell the friend who was with him that THAT is the case (and would of course already have told the friend that Dawn had almost definitely become ill because of the whatever it was that she’d used earlier).
NOW substitute a drug for an unknown substance in a small bottle that one or the other of them had found at some point (alledgedly). Surely – if she HADN’T used anything prior to becoming ill – the obvious thing would be for Charlie to mention the substance in the little bottle to the medics when they arrived after Dawn became ill.
And given that neither of them knew what it was in the bottle, what possible reason would either of them have to think to hide it away somewhere?! None at all of course.
Two or three days ago I did a search for a timeline of the ‘Amesbury poisoning’, and found one in the Belfast Telegraph – ie a Press Association timeline of ‘Salisbury’ and ‘Amesbury’ in fact, and the first few days in relation to ‘Amesbury’ are as follows:
June 30:
Dawn Sturgess and Charlie Rowley fall ill at a property in Muggleton Road in Amesbury – eight miles from Salisbury – and are taken to hospital.
July 2
Wiltshire Police warn of the dangers of contaminated drugs after the couple fall ill. Detectives believe they may have taken heroin or crack cocaine. The pair are in a serious condition at Salisbury District Hospital.
July 4
In the early hours, police declare a “major incident” after revealing that Ms Sturgess and Mr Rowley have been exposed to an “unknown substance”. Cordons are put in place at several locations across Amesbury and Salisbury.
Later that night, Scotland Yard reveals that tests show the couple – who have not been formally named – had been exposed to Novichok. Police were unable to say whether it was the same batch that the Skripals were exposed to.
Bear in mind that there was nothing in the media until Wednesday the 4th.
Anyway, on seeing the Wiltshire Police warning mentioned in the timeline, I did a search to see if there were any media reports about it, but the only thing I found was the statement issued by Wiltshire Police on their website. And my point is THIS:
IF Wiltshire Police believed – at the time – that they were quite possibly dealing with a batch of contaminated drugs, then the most obvious thing in the world for them to have done is to have gone to Charlie Rowley’s address and thoroughly search it to see if they can find any drugs and, if they DO, have them tested as soon as possible to determine if they have been contaminated. And if they DIDN’T find any drugs, or even if they DID, if they came across an unknown substance in an unmarked/unlabelled bottle, it is inconceivable that they wouldn’t have thought to take it with them and have it tested so as to determine what it is. But apparently NONE of this happened!
One things for sure, there is no conspiracy here, other than the one for the government to blame Putin. Look at the evidence. Bozo said it was novichok for sure. The Porton Down stooge ( ex Motorola salesman not a scientist ) could only say it was a Novichok type of nerve agent clearly under pressure to tow the line. Proper experts say it could have been produced anywhere by a competnt person, the formula has been in the public domain for years. In any case Russia has had its stocks certified as destroyed by the regulator. Isreal and the US have not of course.It was devoloped in the old USSR not Russia per se. However another thing is for sure, Putin is a odious murderous demagouge, but he is not stupid. At least not in the same sense Bozo, May and Trump are, or the gulible British public. Cu bono indeed so it must be the Russkis.
May, Bozo and Trump are prolific liars and in the last case a congenital one. They all have poor if not selective memories and are prone to contradict themselves. Trump even congratulated himself yesterday for expeling 60 Russian diplomates in reponse to the Skirpal case. How conveniant? Just in time for the latest episode.
The following is a parody which kinda says it all:
As the two Russian agents walked briskly down the street back to their vehicle, fiendishly parked round the corner at the bottom of the road, one of them suddenly cried out “Oh ruddy hell, supposing it rains and washes the novichok off the door handle. Why did no-one think of that. This is ruddy England after all!”
“Shhh, you’ll wake the whole bloody street up”, Dimitri said petulantly. “Well if it DOES, then we’ll just have to come back tomorrow night and do it again”.
“And supposing it rains again!”
Dimitri didn’t bother responding, and they continued on in silence back to their rented car, both glancing up at the starless sky, and praying that it wouldn’t rain.
But as they drove along the A36 back to their B & B in Southampton, a few spots of rain appeared on the windscreen, and then it just got heavier and heavier and heavier.
“Oh ruddy hell!”, said Stanislav.
The next night, in the early hours of the morning, they drove back to Salisbury and repeated their dirty deed, and as they drove back to Southampton under a clear sky, they were feeling more optimistic. They only slept a few hours, and the first thing Stanislav did when he woke up was look out the window to see if it was still dry. It was, but it was cloudy now, and looked like it could possibly rain soon.
“The problem is that if it DOES rain at some point, we won’t know whether the targets went out before it DID. I mean maybe they’re just going to stay home all day!”
“Well”, said Dimitri, “we’ll know soon enough if they came into contact with the stuff because it will be all over the news.What will be will be, and there’s no point fretting about it. We can only hope that they go out sooner rather than later, before it DOES rain.”
“And if they DON’T, and it pours with rain, we’ll have to go back AGAIN!”
They washed and dressed and went downstairs to the dining room, and ate their cornflakes in silence, both feeling somewhat despondent that the success or failure of their mission was at the mercy of the weather.
After breakfast they went back upstairs to their room and put the TV on, and tuned it to the BBC News channel, then they took out the little travel chess set they’d brought with them. Every now and again, when it was Dimitri’s turn to move, Stanislav would go to the window to see if it had started raining or not. And of course, they were both keeping half an ear on the news.
“Oh ruddy hell!” It was Stanilav of course. “What if a neighbour or a friend pops in to see them, and then they see themselves out and pull the front door to themselves! And then supposing Scripal and his daughter don’t go out today, and then the neighbour or friend becomes seriously ill and is taken to hospital and……”.
“Yes”, Dimitri interjected, “I know where you’re going with it. Everything would have been for nothing, and a non-targeted person killed. The Assassination Planning Department really didn’t think all of this through properly”.
Just a few minutes later there was a sudden loud crack of thunder, and shortly afterwards the rain started, and within seconds it was torrential.
“Oh ruddy hell!”
The whole point is of course that it is way beyond the realms of plausibility that anyone would ever come up with such an assassination plan.
And in case you didn’t see it, check this out from last week, just the day after the ‘Amesbury’ poisoning story first broke:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6706913/salisbury-rain-saved-poisoned-sergei-skripals-life/
And the chances that it was just coincidence is absolute zero – ie that the ‘rain’ story appeared exactly one day after the ‘Amesbury’ story broke, and especially in view of the fact that the woman died a few days later.
(the only other paper that ran the story as far as I could determine was the Daily Mirror)
On the 28th of March, more than three weeks after the alledged poisoning, it was widely reported in the media that Novichok was found on the outside handle of the front door of Sergei Scripal’s house, and that THAT was the source of the contamination that led to the Scripals and DS Nick Bailey being poisoned.
Right, so it only took the forensic teams/experts – who were in Salisbury as of the next day (the Monday) – and the chemical weapons experts – who arrived on the Friday – some three weeks to think to check the front door handle. Of course it didn’t, and THAT would have been the very first thing they checked, prior to entering the house to thoroughly check it over for traces of Novichok.
Anyway, so then, just over two weeks later, on April 13th, it was widely reported that ‘Russia’ had been conducting tests to determine if door handles could be used to deliver nerve agents. The following is from an article in The Guardian:
Russia had tested whether door handles could be used to deliver nerve agents and had targeted the email accounts of Sergei and Yulia Skripal since at least 2013, according to previously classified intelligence over the Salisbury attack that has been made public.
The UK released the intelligence on Friday linking Russia to the attack on the former double agent and his daughter.
(Ends)
So the forensic and chemical weapons experts didn’t think to check the door handle for some three weeks, and MI6 or whoever, who had evidence that ‘Russia’ had been testing whether handles could be used to deliver nerve agents, didn’t think to pass this information on to the experts in Salisbury immediately it was determined that the Scripals and Nick Bailey had been poisoned with a nerve agent. Oh, I was forgetting, it was highly classified, so that would explain it. The following is a copy of the memo that MI6 – or whoever – intercepted:
Top Secret Memo To President Vladimir Putin
Dear President Putin,
After many months of testing if nerve agents can be delivered by coating them on door handles, we have conclusively concluded that they can. The only problem we found was that if the door handle in question is exposed to the elements – and rain specifically – the nerve agent will be washed off.
Yours Sincerely,
Professor Petr Pushkin DFG VBN, Nerve Agent Delivery Testing Laboratories
(Just in case there’s anyone who didn’t realise, it is of course parody)
And the point IS of course, that none of it happened, and it was all staged and acted out as if it DID, and the Scripals and Nick Bailey were in on it from the outset. If you look at the AP timeline in the Belfast Telegraph (which I mentioned in another post, and which I’ve put a link to at the end of THIS post), you will see that after March 28th – when we are all being told it was the handle of the front door wot done it – it all goes relatively quiet, and the reason the script-writers had the story pan out like THAT are two-fold.
Now try to imagine if we had been told within a few days of the alledged poisoning that a nerve agent – Novichok – had been found on the the outside handle of the front door of Sergei Scripal’s house AND that THAT is how the Scripals and Nick Bailey were contaminated, AND there HADN’T been all the endless ‘speculation’ during the three weeks after the three of them were alledgedly poisoned. Imagine if they had told us THAT initially, then THAT would have been THAT and, as such, there couldn’t have been – and there WOULDN’T have been – all the ‘speculation’ that there WAS during the three weeks or so that followed. And if THAT had been the case, then you can be 100% certain that numerous people would have soon realised how absurd it would be to carry out an assassination attempt in such a manner – ie coat the outside handle of the front door with a nerve agent – and the success or failure of the operation be dependent on the weather staying dry on the one hand, AND the Scripals going out somewhere before it DID rain on the other, let alone the fact that it only takes one person to pull the door to, so only ONE of them is likely to be contaminated and,poisoned as such.
And the point is that all the ‘speculation’ was concocted and designed to prevent THAT from happening AND also to ‘hammer’ it home that it was REAL, precisely because it WASN’T. The three weeks or so of ‘speculation’ was in fact a process to inculcate – brainwash in actual fact – tens of millions of people that it was for real, and to deeply embed it in their minds that it was.
And then there was also the emotionalisation of the masses of course – ie outrage, anger, hostility (towards Russia/Putin), alarm and concern and worry (particularly in those who live in Salisbury and the surrounding area), tribulation AND (when one by one each of them miraculously recovers), relief and delight. And as the Establishment, so-called, and their minions know all too well, when people are in a highly emotionalised state, their reason and logic go out of the window.
The scriptwriters knew at the outset that the Scripals and Nick Bailey had to survive the ‘assassination’ attempt of course, and THAT’S why they came up with poisoning by a nerve agent, and one that of course led straight back to ‘Russia’ and Vladimir Putin.
Oops, forgot the link to the timeline:
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/timeline-of-events-leading-up-to-and-including-the-amesbury-poisonings-37094650.html
The lack of proper investigative journalists within all the main stream media is embarrassing.
The key to the whole sorry affair is to find out who is lying or not telling the whole truth.
If the substance that made the Skripals ill was in a bottle then either the Skripals or another party in or around the where the Skripals were found would have to be in possession of the bottle.
The said bottle is now reported have come into the hands of Dawn and Charlie. It is unknown how the bottle came into their possession but no one else has become ill between the two events of Salisbury and Amesbury.
Nobody on the scene of the days events surrounding the Skripals or whom came into contact with the Skripals on that day was reported to be ill apart for the Skripals and one detective.
If no one else has become ill by visiting the same places or touching objects touched by the Skripals then it is highly unlikely that if the detective become ill by touching anything. It is more likely that to become ill anyone would have to open the bottle of whatever substance.
Either person or persons very high up are perverting the course of justice by interfering with an investigation or committing a crime by instigating the whole affair.
It appears that the procedures for collecting and testing items from within Charlie’s property may have been far more complex than some have envisaged.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b90q2n
Listen from 16:46 (roughly half way) onwards