Analysis comment

Labour’s polling falls again under Starmer – Tories fourteen points ahead

Starmer falls further back against a government overseeing ‘social murder’ of 150,000 and more

The latest YouGov poll for the Times suggests that Labour has falling seven points further behind the Tories – in the space of just a week:

This is against a Tory government whose policies have killed 150,000 and more people in just the last year or so – New Zealand, another island nation, has seen just 26 deaths because of its government’s handling of the pandemic crisis. So appalling has Boris Johnson’s handling of the crisis that the Tories have been accused of social murder even by the editor of the normally cautious British Medical Journal.

Keir Starmer’s eagerness to avoid holding Johnson to account for his crimes has allowed the Tories a free ride – and contributed to the shattering of Labour’s standing on Starmer’s watch.

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  1. It won’t be long before the once-radical “peoples party” routinely achieves only ‘third party’ levels of support.

    This kind of makes sense. When Labour’s alleged leader and his cohorts are indistinguishable from Liberals and libertarians (and resolutely refuse to admit any socialist values), then the left is dysfunctional and invalid.

    Removal of Sir Keir Rodney Starmer from Labour leadership is, for Labour, a survival measure.

    1. It would be encouraging to me if it meant that it would lead to having a real socialist leader again. But with the NEC riddled with right wingers and the PLP just as bad, I fear that this is terminal decline.

      1. I agree. NEC AND PLP. When Starmer falls the Labour right wil become kingmakers.

        But maybe SANDRA, that’s the very time when the democratic left would be able to seperate itself from the wretchedly neoliberal Labour party and achieve *some* popular support – despite fierce opposition from the Establisment and billionaires’ press?

      2. One of the problems we have as Democratic Socialists is that most Democratic Socialist Candidates will be taken out, for GE2024, replaced with Right Wing Candidates in all the Tory Seats we lost in 2019.
        If People give them a seat they are literally replacing a Tory for a Tory! We need by some intervention get Democratic Socialists to stand for EVERY Seat that is not “Labour”, right now. Then we can safely vote them into those Seats and Vote EVERY Neolabour Tory OUT of their Seat with their strongest opponent, regardless of who takes that seat, we then stand a good chance of taking those seats back at the next GE.
        That is the only way we will end up with a Predominantly Democratic Socialist UK Labour Party, Smaller at first, but yeah, we know now what we lost in 2019, HOPEFULLY, and we know what HOPE does from 2017!

      3. “One of the problems we have as Democratic Socialists is that most Democratic Socialist Candidates will be taken out, for GE2024, replaced with Right Wing Candidates in all the Tory Seats we lost in 2019.”

        WOW! If true Skellknell, then we should leave Labour immediately. RaV would be pointless .

        I hope you are wrong, but Starmer’s behaviour suggests you are not wrong.

      4. Missed this one Qwertboi, only time will tell, judging by events to date that is exactly what they will be doing. Socialism will never have a fair ‘trial’ the Americans and British Tories, of all varieties, have instilled fear into the ignorant masses, ignorant only because they allowed The Machine/Elites/Establishment to spoon-feed them Lies and Deceit!
        Every time I think of this Scenario, War Pigs – Black Sabbath, comes to mind and every time I listen to it the more genius it gets. This is a True Socialist Anthem, A Great Stress Reliever and worthy a listen if you haven’t!
        Especially on those occasions The Occupying Parasite Party The Neolabour Tory Party makes you want to ‘smash things up’!
        Make sure you get something that you want to trash, to hand, don’t go smashing up Hotel Rooms, or your house :):):)

    2. >> left is dysfunctional and invalid.

      Only because it is maligned by the supposedly left party. Every time a socialist is elected it’s just attack after political attack from the vile MSM and even from within the party. So why even stick your head up?

      There is NO point to being a socialist under Labour as it’s controlled utterly by the right wing cult of new Labour 2.0. The membership is vilified, ignored, marginalised and kicked out if they start having perpendicular socialist views. So again why try.

      No sorry Labour party is dead the party my family has supported for the last 3 generations has walked away from us and won’t turn back. So there is no point in even voting or supporting the Labour party. Until we have a socialist ONLY party this will continue to decline until there a joke of a party like the Libs / Greens.

      1. Democratic socialists are not leaving Labour until or unless we are ready to AND it seems like the militant hard right neoliberals should be glad of that (we’re their cover).

        Of course the word “Labour” is ours and essentially socialist , even the CIA-instructed T Blair knew that and had to insert “new” to make his enterist interregnum aceptable to the people he was deceiving and contravening.

      1. It’s not up to me whether there is a new party or not- it IS exclusively Starmer’s fault that 100,000 people have quit Labour, and Starmer still doesn’t get it that you can’t spend the first year of your leadership treating your predecessor and those who supported him as the enemy-something Corbyn never did to ANYONE on the Labour Right- and then turn around and claim that the people you’ve spent the year disempowering and silencing and spreading false accusations of AS against for just for not being Likudniks on the I/P issue owe you and the party that has made you unwelcome your support. And it can’t be worth trying to elect Labour it if goes back to anyplace close to the dead zone it was in on policy in ’10 and ’15.

  2. 14 points behind Johnson’s Kakistocracy, and local/regional elections a mere 20 days away. The Beige Knight really is proving an unmitigated disaster.

    1. May 6 – and Labour’s electoral annihilation in the local elections and Hartlepool by-election – will be seen as Sir Keir’s Just Desserts day.

    1. George – Well partially, Corbyn and his team must accept some of the responsibility for their manifest failure.

  3. I thought the usual Skwawkbox line on YouGov was that it was (in a way never specified) ‘iriredeembly Tory’ but as you are accepting this one, what about a little mention of another one from them on Labour Party members attitude to their party, and issued today. It found (and I quote) amongst other things “The view of the Labour leader among members was largely positive – 74% favourable and 24% unfavourable. Shadow Foreign Secretary Lisa Nandy ranked a close second with 69% having a positive opinion of her and 16% not.” It went on to say that “A majority of members surveyed said they believe Starmer is doing a better job as leader than his predecessor Jeremy Corbyn. 61% reported that he was doing better, with 39% saying “a lot better” and 22% opting for “a little better”.

    On policy rather than personalities it showed that of polled party members “Most opted for a “moderate” amount of compromise on the party’s values, at 42%, while 11% reported that they would only agree to “small” concessions.” It also said, I’m very glad to say, “59% of members reported that they would like the party to campaign to rejoin the EU, although accepting the NHS and the economy had to be the immediate lead focus.

    Here’s the report from Labour List.

    1. Dave,
      Nice of you to give us some input, particularly of Polls associated with actual Labour Party members, however, such Polls really are meaningless given we now don’t know how many Full members the Party has, and, many are afraid to speak out that remain for fear of being Suspended and then expelled. I can tell you that in South East Wales membership figures are in free fall and about the only people left are the Rightist, anti-Corbyn mob who adore Labour First and Progress.

      Still, in Wales at least the acid test is the Welsh Assembly Elections on 6 May and Keith Stalin is actually having a negative impact on the Labour Party vote, despite Mark Drakeford being far to the Left of Keith.

      Maybe, the next Poll you reference will be of former members who have left the Party in disgust since January 2020 and those the Party have expelled – me being one of them!

      1. christopher – Have you been celebrating the recent successes by Labour in the Welsh by-elections.

        Abersychan. Lab GAIN from independent:
        LAB: 49.8% (+21.1)
        IND (Hill): 17.4% (+17.4)
        IND (Tomlinson): 17.3% (+17.3)
        CON: 13.6% (+4.0)
        PROP: 1.9% (+1.9)

        Cwmyniscoy. Lab HOLD
        LAB: 77.1% (+21.0)
        IND: 14.9% (+14.9)
        PROP: 8.0% (+8.0)

    2. That poll, also, has Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband ahead of Starmer, with Starmer and Clement Attlee neck-in-neck.

      Who, exactly, were these ‘Labour Party members’?

      1. I think you will probably find every single one of them named in the 800-odd pages of the report banned by Starmer and Evans, and in the extensive footnotes and appendices of the Force Report.

    3. Nice try. YouGov reflects the view of elderly people who like doing surveys for money. In the case of your survey it reflects the view of predominantly elderly Labour party members, or people claiming to be members.
      The naive view of those wishing to campaign for readmission to the EU at this time can be totally discounted. There will be no campaign for readmission for at least 25 years, by which time the EU will probably be a federated state of around 6 countries.

      1. If you knew anything about polling, you woyuld know results are ‘weighed’ to reflect the class, age, ethnicity, gender and regional balance of the country. But don’t worry about such trivial details as they don’t fit your world view.

      2. If you knew anything about polling, you would know that Pollsters are Millionaire Establishment-Serfs, Poll results are ‘targetted’ to reflect what The Elites/Establishment/Machine wants YOU to see by targeting a very specific slice of class, age, ethnicity, gender and regional “balance” of the country. Made so much easier with those “GREAT FREE GIFT” Alexas, etc, gifts you had “FOR FREE” with your new Phone/Internet/TV/Utility Contract, but don’t worry about such trivial details as they don’t fit your world view. 😉

      3. David Walsh
        If you knew anything about polling you would know they are framed to get the answer you want

      4. Pollsters can sort us by the time, consistency, colour, smell and duration of our First Morning Stools, we literally have an AI Pollster sitting next to us every day all day! That is not going to change anytime soon! Not for the better any ways!

    4. My point is, for a poll to be anything other than a marketing tool, it needs to encompass as wide a demographic as possible. The one you allude to has the very narrowest demographic possible which leads me to believe it was commissioned purely for marketing purposes.

      1. “The one you allude to has the very narrowest demographic possible ” And the factual evidence for that is ?

      2. YouGov is a very strange polling organisation. Seems to me that it is actually a marketing organisation masquerading as a polling organisation. Somehow they got hold of my details and sent me a “survey” but I quit half way through when it became apparent that they were seeking information to enable someone to try to sell me insurance. I blocked them. Looks like it is, therefore, a self-selecting group of people who are surveyed (those who didn’t spot what they were up to and those who don’t care). Any weighting (not “weighing”) would be done within that self-selecting group, so any findings would not be considered statistically valid. Depending on the composition of the group the “lead” may be an overestimate or an underestimate, or it could be correct. I’d rather look at other pollsters, or the actual polls themselves in May.

    5. In that case let’s have a winner takes all leadership election
      Whoever wins keeps the Labour party and the others leave and set up a new party 🥳 🎊 🎉
      You appear to be saying Temporary Embarrassment has 80% support from members
      Methinks not

      1. Doug – We had one of those in 2020 and Keir won in the first round with the left’s candidate managing only a very poor second.

      2. “The Left’s Candidate”!? I assume you mean RLB? For a “Democratic Socialist” RLB had one foot way too deep in Thatcher’s Neolabour Party, for most Democratic Socialist’s liking.
        Why do you thing so many of us left the Party leaving you with 100K Member IF YOU ARE VERY LUCKY, there were no one standing for Leadership who stood for Democratic Socialist UK Labour Party Values! Not even in The Deputy Race, there was only Burgon, but for some reason he turned Rabbit in the Headlights!
        I wonder if The Parasites will ever release TRUE statistics of Membership Publicly, I would not trust the bastards even if they release their fake numbers! My guess is quite a bit short of 100K!

      3. skellyknelly – Yes RLB was a poor choice, but she was the left’s choice and she was endorsed by all the great and the good on the left including Jeremy.

      4. skellyknelly – RLB was nominated by 33 MPs, 163 CLPs plus Unite, BFAWU, FBU, CWU, Socialist Educational Association, Disability Labour, & ASLEF

      5. So not the members who would have stayed if there was a Democratic Socialist in the Leadership Race?
        Hardly a Fair Representation with a 95% Democratic Socialist Membership and MPs nominated by a 90/95% Neolabour Party Tory PLP vs 5/10% Democratic Socialist UK Labour Party PLP..
        That is also why so many of us left on the Morning of 13 Dec 2019, because we knew there were no Leadership Candidates whatsoever. Were there MPs who could do the Job, of course, but they would make Jeremy’s Daily Onslaught look like a Pic Nic especially at 90/95%PLP vs 5/10%PLP internal sabotage to boost!
        Unless we vote every Neolabour Tory MP/Candidate OUT and every UK Labour Party MP/Candidate IN, UK Labour Party will remain Dead!
        We can only revive it with a Majority Democratic Socialist MP, no matter how small the Party at first, sometimes you just have to bite The Bullet and I can’t think of a more worthy cause than Representation FOR The People in the HoP, to bit the bullet for!
        “The House of Commons is supposed to be the people’s House, and yet the people are not there!” Keir Hardie.

      6. skellyknelly – Have you any more excuses you’d like to throw into the mix.

      7. Excuses!? Nah, excuses are concocted by Thatcher’s Neolabour Tory Party Propaganda Office,
        Facts are not Excuses.
        Making stuff up, omitting all the facts and the whole picture, by cherry picking the scenario that you want to portray, is Propaganda, you seem good at it! Very good indeed!

      8. skellyknelly – It’s quite easy as long as you stick to the truth.

      9. Yes I know, I have seen “The Truth” all of 2015 to 2020!
        By cherry picking one small piece of “Truth” and avoiding all the rest of the Actual “Truth” which refutes your Cherry Picked Concocted “Truth” you turn Truth to Lie!
        Would you Look at that You’re Magic, an Alchemist!

        In a different light: your statement ‘Jeremy stole The Rolex’ If only he didn’t steal that bloody Rolex…..
        Behind the scenes: The PLP stole the Rolex, handed it to Lansman who handed it to The NEC and eventually it was sold an the cash distributed among Conference 2018.

        What was Jeremy’s role in the theft of the Rolex?
        He was The Leader of the UK Labour Party and therefore officially announced the changes.
        Did he Steal The Rolex himself?
        Did he Plan the Robbery of the Rolex?
        Could he stop/prevent the Theft of The Rolex?
        NO! He was heavily outnumbered 80% Neolabour Tories vs 20% UK Labour Party!
        Are you lying that Jeremy Stole the Rolex?
        Truth to Lie! Magic, you are pure Magic!

      10. Skellyknelly – I don’t have a clue what you are blathering on about, do you?

      11. No! You never do when confronted with facts or truth, You can never see it when it is put in front of you, as though for a 5 year old!
        That is when the Magic Spin Meister turns ignorant and stupid!

      12. skellyKnelly – Perhaps your comments would be easier to understand if you dropped the ridiculous hyperbole and obscure similes.

      13. Perhaps you should mind yours and I shall mind mine?

      14. SteveH
        So knock yourself out and put your house on Temporary Embarrassment
        Let’s have a good clean civil war (Marquis 9f Queensferry rules ) and resolve the issues that have plagued the party for 40 years
        One way or another its going to happen

      15. Doug – As I’ve said above, we’ve been there and done that. If the left want to mount a challenge for the leadership there is a clearly laid out process for doing that, what’s stopping you?

      16. Steve H – how very disingenuous of you. No change there.

        Old Membership, straight contest between JC and KS. Who do you think would win?

      17. George – There was a poll during the leadership campaign that asked the question
        Who would you vote for if Jeremy Corbyn was on the ballot paper alongside KS, LN & RLB .
        RLB’s vote collapsed Jeremy got c30% and Starmer still won with an overall majority in the first round.

        If I was a gambling man I would put my money on Keir.

      18. If I was a gambling man I would put my money on Keir

        And that – ladies and gents – is why you’ll always see bookmakers driving expensive cars rather than riding pushbikes.

      19. Toffee – Not at my expense. I’ve never placed a bet with a bookie either on the high street or on-line. It’s a mugs game.

      20. Absolutely no surprise there.

        Ever had sex with someone other than yourself? Or did you make them wait and see before committing yourself not to?

    6. Walsher stop banging about brexit,its yesterday’s news and in any case theres nothing to learn with such a crowded stage of right wing Labour and Torys jostling each other for the same space..

      1. That is analagous to someone saying in early 1939 ‘stop banging on about Munich – its yesterday’s news’. But in that case nemesis was round the corner and economic nemesis is round today’s road junction too.

      2. Toffee – “The same space”, like you the Tories support Brexit?

      3. Will you address the correct people you colossal dolt?!

    7. it’s time to admit Rejoin is an impossibility. The EU would never take the UK back now that it’s left. Better to build an alternative Europe-wide body that puts equality, peace, freedom and the end of want before profit.

    8. Walsher….ok..not to worry then its only a minority of members unhappy 😡with the way the Labour party are leaps and bounds ahead in confidence and activism.Just carry on whilst your constituency offices are sold off and the cash flow disappears.All happy ☺at the southside bunker.?Ps roumers are that assets are being sold off to pay the interest on loans.Yes lotto continues to leak like a sieve in the good old tradition of follow my leader….shush?

  4. Doesn’t it feel both Great and Disgusting to be on the flip side of that nasty Elites owned Poll Score. I wonder if anyone on Twitter could do a Twitter Poll
    Who do you sincerely feel more confident in running the country, for the next term while we continue our fight for a Democratic Socialist Government?

    A. The Repulsive Thatcherite Neoliberal Conservative Party Tories.
    B. The Repulsive Thatcherite Neoliberal Neolabour Party Tories.

    No Plan C, this is your reality! One of those two WILL win GE2024, They are both Equally Thatcherite, Equally Tory, Equally Anti The People/”Working Class”, Equally Anti Trade Union, Equally Anti Welfare Support, Equally Anti Socialist, Equally Anti “Left”, etc, etc, etc!
    GE2024 You have NO CHOICE!
    Your “CHOICE” is:
    Tory on this side of the aisle!
    Tory on that side of the aisle!

    We had the same Choice of only 1 out of a possible 2 in GE2017/GE2019, ONLY We had Choice then, Choice between Two Polar Opposite Opposition Parties!
    A. The Repulsive Thatcherite Neoliberal Conservative Tory.
    B. Hope and Lasting Change, Democratic Socialist UK Labour Party!

    1. The working class made their choice and we lost 60 seats. For the first time ever a majority of the working class (C2DE) voted Tory and by a very significant 15% margin. Ironically it was the middle class (ABC1) vote that saved Labour from wipe out.

      1. “The Working Class” voted you are quite right and “The Working Class” had a CHOICE:
        The UK Labour Party FOR The People!
        The Conservative Party Tories FOR Themselves & The Elites/Establishment/The Machine!
        As Simple as that, “The Working Class” were well aware that there were only 1/2 possible GE19 Winners.
        The UK Labour Party FOR The People!
        The Conservative Party Tories FOR Themselves & The Elites/Establishment/The Machine!
        YET “The Working Class” CHOSE to screw themselves over, by not supporting “The Working Class” Party!
        “The Working Class” who voted against the end of 41 years of Thatcherite Tory Hell must be and can only be utter imbeciles!
        Not only did “The Working Class” Screw themselves and ALL The People of Britain over at GE19, because now they don’t even have a CHOICE at the next GE!
        “The Working Class” GE24 Choice:
        Thatcher’s Neolabour Party Tories FOR Themselves & The Elites/Establishment/The Machine!
        The Conservative Party Tories FOR Themselves & The Elites/Establishment/The Machine!
        Ooops! “The Working Class” are Fucked!
        Geee! Thanks “The Working Class” !

      2. skellyknelly – Or to put it far more succinctly – Labour lost big time because the working class rejected Corbyn and his manifesto. Unfortunately nothing you’ve said on these pages offers a way forward.

      3. SteveH “– You are entitled to your opinion, everyone has one.”
        As do I! Whether you like it or not! I will express myself frustrations and all!

        So, let me get this right “the working class rejected Corbyn and his manifesto” even though “The Working Class” were well aware that there were only 1/2 possible GE19 Winners.
        The UK Labour Party FOR The People!
        The Conservative Party Tories FOR Themselves & The Elites/Establishment/The Machine!
        And that is “The Working Class” Class solution, to not liking Corbyn and The Party Policies, to vote themselves and the rest of us so deep in the shit that we’ll all be stuck in it for ANOTHER 41 YEARS!?
        You are insulting the “The Working Class” with such ridiculous claims!
        Even if “The Working Class” did not like Corbyn or The Party Policies, a child could work out that we’d be better off under a Democratic Socialist Government and sort out ‘issues and dislikes’ after the GE, rather than a Tory Government knowing that rejection would lead to No Future Choice just 2 Tory Parties with very much the same Rhetoric, just as before!
        There is only ONE way Forward at this stage for “The Working Class” to Completely Destroy The Thatcherite Neolabour Party Tories at he Next GE and vote in as many Democratic Socialist UK Labour Party MPs/Candidates and start afresh without the Neolabour Tory Parasites’ Internal Sabotage that led “The Working Class” down the thorny pathway!
        I don’t think “The Working Class” had a fat lot to do with the results of GE19, I think the Sabotaging White Collar Neolabour Party Tories’ Conniving, Lying, Smearing, Spinning, Propaganda etc, etc, etc had everything to do with that result!
        Nah! I am not putting it on the “The Working Class” for whatever reason you choose! Some might have, but we all do stupid things from tome to time including you Magic Spin Meister!

      4. skellyknelly – Yes the working class did vote against their own and their communities interest. You can protest all you want but the sad fact remains that the majority of the working class vote (however ridiculous it may sound to you and I) trusted Boris more than they did Jeremy at the 19GE. For goodness sake wake up we lost 60 seats. Uncomfortable though it may be the Tories with their 80 seat majority can now lay claim to being the party of the working class.
        It is also interesting to note that roughly the same percentages of the middle and working classes voted Labour and Conservative (about 33% in each case)

      5. “For goodness sake wake up we lost 60 seats.”
        Wide Awake!
        “We” are going to loose approximately 170 more Neolabour Tory Party Tory Seats GE24!
        GE19 The People had CHOICE and HOPE, The People were never The Enemy of Democratic Socialism!
        The People, however are the Enemy of Thatcher’s Neoliberal Neolabour Party Tories and there is only one solution now that THEY robbed The People of CHOICE & HOPE!
        The Parasites must be removed, by keeping them in seats The UK Labour Party is wasting time and heading for another 41 years of Thatcherite Neoliberal Hell!
        Do you really think that you can come here of all places, SteveH, and sway The People!? You’re Mad!
        Do you think The People can not see the difference between a Tory and a Socialist, or “Left Wing” and “Right Wing” You Neoliberals are all the same, you’ll come back and try to tell me you’re a Leftist Socialist and you are not a plant to constantly going for anyone who dares to speak against your Führer, Starmer, and the Stermertruppen!?
        You’ve been at it just about as long as SkwawkBox’s existence!
        So come as you will dear, I’ll be here!

      6. skellyKnelly – You appear to be having some difficulty defining anything with any decree of clarity. I really can’t be arsed with trying to follow your Citizen Smith nonsense.

      7. The working class weren’t saying they wanted Labour to tell the left to get stuffed. They were saying they wanted their votes in the referendum respected. Labour could never have won the election on a Remain policy under any leader from any part of the spectrum- the polls now prove Starmer would have done no better and that there is no profit in Labour ditching socialism for “Clause IV democratic socialism”, a term that is a euphemism for nothing. Blair would’ve taken 32% on an allout Remain policy- so would David Miliband, whose allegedly magical appeal has never been explained by his acolytes.

      8. There is no reason for you to be this obsessed with denouncing Corbyn, SteveH. He’s no longer leader and will never seek the leadership again. It’s just that there’s no good reason to move to the right of any of his policies since the policies themselves were never unpopular and there’s nothing to the right of any of those policies that anyone could call Labour in any recognisable sense.

      9. SteveH will you fuck off with your lies. And if you must lie, at least present your evidence.
        The reasons Labour lost the election are many and varied, not least the party machinery actively working against Corbyn and the onslaught of anti Corbyn media propaganda. Apart from that I’ll refer you to this poll by YouGov which might not be 100% correct but seems largely unbiased.
        In light of this I request that you stop lying about the election centrist dad.

      10. And yes, SteveH, Corbyn was unpopular by the time of the ’19 election, but it’s not as simple as saying he DESERVED to be unpopular. It goes without saying he never deserved the AS Smear onslaught- that he never deserved most of his MPs briefing against him; he’d done nothing to merit their disloyalty and especially not the abuse Ian Austin screamed at him in the House for apologising for Blair’s war- what was Austin expecting, a passionate defence of an unwinnable conflict that has killed upwards of a million people by now, possibly two million, and which has never had any positive results for the Iraqi people?- he never deserved to be accused of supporting terrorism or the IRA since he obviously never did- support for a united Ireland was never a position ONLY the IRA held; the SDLP still ultimately seeks a United Ireland, too, and if Labour ever were to start nominating its own candidates in the Six Counties, they would have to do the same, since there’s no such thing as a left-of-centre Unionist(Kate Hoey did everyone a service by reminding us all of that with her decision to vote DUP in ’19)- he never deserved to have Starmer stab him in the back by pushing for Labour to go allout Remain when going allout Remain could have no other effect but guaranteeing a Tory landslide.

        And it still goes without saying that neither Starmer nor anyone else, had Corbyn stood down before the ’19 vote, would have done better. If no one finds Starmer’s approach appealing now- and no one does, based on the polls- why would anyone have voted for it THEN?

        Corbyn was unpopular because he was deliberately MADE unpopular by an allout campaign to destroy him. I think he would have stood down if the PLP had agreed to guarantee that a strong Left candidate would be on the ballot to replace him, that there’d be a “no purge” guarantee for his supporters, and that there be no rightward swing on policy or presentation. Why should he have gone without ANY such guarantees? It’s not as though he owed it to the party to let everyone who had supported him exposed to the hounding they’re not being subjected to OR the real possibility that everything his supporters and him stand for will be erased from the manifesto? Even you, SteveH, would have to admit it would be a tragedy if the party went back to the ’97 to ’10 policies, since the ’10 and ’15 election proves that those policies can never elect a Labour government again and since just electing something that calls itself “a Labour government” isn’t anything at all by itself.

  5. Yougov is undoubtedly the least trustworthy of the polling organisations! And it seems highly unlikely that the Tory lead over Labour would just suddenly double, and for no particular reason. The average lead in the twelve polls prior to the yougov poll was about eight points, and if you look down the right-hand column, lo-and-behold there’s a yougov poll conducted on the 18th and 19th of March that puts the Tories nine points ahead of Labour, seven points MORE than the poll before that, conducted at the same time!

    No doubt yougov does it deliberately precisely so that it will be ‘newsworthy’!

    1. YouGov is only in it for the money. However, those who commission polls only do so in order to sway public opinion. YouGov in particular is open to members claiming to support one party while actually supporting another.

    2. Allan – Was YouGov being ‘untrustworthy’ the reason that Corbyn’s campaign team had them on retainer for the 19GE.

    3. even if the YouGov poll is unrepresentative, there is no way it’s fine for the Tories to have a solid eight-point lead over Labour when we were all assured that Labour would have a solid lead in the polls under any leader OTHER than Corbyn- and especially, the anti-Corbyn crowd insisted, under any leader that did what SteveH wants and reduces Labour policy to the post-Blair version of Clause IV- the version under which Margaret Thatcher would be classed as a socialist.

  6. Something missing in this thread… Must be a helluva briefing the wee man’s getting.

    1. I’m just checking out CNN re the Indianapolis shootings, and they just showed a map of the US highlighting where all the mass shootings in the past month occurred…. And there have been TWENTY-TWO!

      No worries though, because the NRA are the ‘Tireless defenders of your Second Amendment rights’.

    2. Horrible…but what possible relevance does that tragic event have to what we are discussing here?

      1. Are you some sort of totalitarian dictator ken?! Why don’t you go forth and multiply!

  7. The following is quite interesting:

    In 2016, half of all gun deaths occurred in the Americas

    Half of all firearm-related deaths in 2016 occurred in just six countries – all in the Americas – according to a study.

    Brazil had the largest gun deaths toll, with over 43,000 people killed that year. The US was next with 37,200. It was followed by Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela and Guatemala.

    Together these six countries accounted for 50.5% of the quarter of a million deaths from firearm injuries in 2016, a figure that includes homicides, suicides and accidental injuries……

    When it comes to gun deaths per 100,000 inhabitants, El Salvador had the highest rate of any country in 2016.

  8. Interesting fact. At this time in Corbyn’s leadership he was being attacked by centrist slime for only being 8 points ahead. They’re very quiet now.

    1. Well said lindie! QUEUE – Ted Snyder and lyrics by Bert Kalmar and Harry Ruby and the wonderful Connie Francis:

      Ah ah uh uh
      Who’s sorry now?
      Who’s sorry now?
      Whose heart is achin’ for breakin’ each vow?
      Who’s sad and blue, who’s cryin’ too?
      Just like newlabour ‘cept this is brand new

      (Ah ah uh uh) right to the end, just like a friend
      I tried to warn you somehow
      You had your way, now you must pay
      I’m glad that you’re sorry now

      (Ah ah ah) right to the end, just like a friend
      I tried to warn you somehow
      You had your way, now you must pay
      I’m glad that you’re sorry now

  9. As a follower of Marx (Groucho)
    We need to introduce a ‘Sanity Clause’ into membership rules
    Automatic expulsion if you prefer a Tory government
    Automatic expulsion if you wake up every morning and work for a Tory government rather than a Socialist Labour government

    1. And, I’d say, automatic expulsion if you’re a sitting Labour MP and you make a big show out of announcing you’re standing down in order to try and force the leader out DURING THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN, when there is no feasible way to replace a leader during an election campaign- with the sole exceptions of situations in which the leader in question has actually been caught burning a cross on someone’s lawn or in a compromising position with a partner of another species.

  10. On another matter can someone ask the Chair of Labour friends of Palestine and Temporary Embarrassment if they support the ICC investigation into Israeli war crimes

      1. SteveH
        Your turn, what is Temporary Embarrassment’s position or has he not had the email yet from his backers

      2. Doug – As you’re the one that wants to know. I’m surprised you didn’t think to copy him in..

      3. SteveH
        Copy in who, The Ambassador
        I expect she is too busy writing Temporary Embarrassments next speech

    1. I think The ‘Labour Friends of’ brand like the ‘Labour’ Brand has been occupied by Thatcher’s Neolabour Party Tories. I wonder if there are any Palestinians involved in the movement, probably not, there will probably be small print somewhere, ‘refer all inquiries to The Board of Deputies at ………’!
      Zionist Lisa Nandy had something to do with the leadership until recently so I shouldn’t have high hopes that it has anything to do with Palestine at all! Probably best just to stick with Palestine Solidarity and BDS.

      1. There will never be peace until the ‘International Community’ adopt a one state solution for the country known as Palestine. Jew & Arab can live together in the same country, with the same human rights guaranteed in law. & end the racist apartheid state aka Israel. USA will never allow this as Israel is the beating heart of America transplanted by force into Arab lands.

      2. Wholeheartedly agree if I could, I would add just one word to your post Steve, if I may, “the beating heart of America transplanted by *terrorist* force into Arab lands.”
        I wonder if America and their yapping Chihuahua bitch, Israel are the “Uber-Powers” they believe themselves to be, only time will tell as they are all out for creating wars with just about every nation on earth! Then again so is our Buffoon Churchill Wannabe, he just wants his own …..on the beaches…. moment!
        The 3 Stooges ‘of the International Community’ are going to get us all killed with their stupidity!

    2. I’m pretty sure Nandy has changed the name of the group to “Labour Ignorers of Palestine” now, on Keir’s orders.

  11. I didn’t realise 20% ahead referred to the Tories rather than Labour, but it’s becoming clear now;)

    1. The whole point was clearly to reduce the party to nothing but National Labour 2.0, with Starmer as “The Boneless Wonder”.

  12. After the ‘cloudy’ comments on this thread, I ran a short twitter poll, on the subject.

    It only ran for nine hours, with 192 responders, but I believe it’s, just, as scientific as any YouGov or LabourList poll :

    Which, recent, Labour Leader do you have most respect for?

    Gordon Brown 7.8%

    Ed Miliband 4.7%

    Jeremy Corbyn 84.9%

    Keir Starmer 2.6%

    192 votes· Final results

  13. Proof, if it were needed that antisemitism was weaponised against Corbyn.
    “Starmer’s officials published on the party’s website the same antisemitism code of conduct that had been drafted during Corbyn’s time as leader. They did so despite a submission from one of Labour’s senior lawyers during February’s court hearing that such an admission could prove “politically incendiary”.

    That was because a wide range of Jewish leadership groups rounded on Corbyn and Labour over the code when it was first published in July 2018.
    Dave Rich, head of policy at the Community Security Trust, set up to protect Jewish communities from antisemitic attacks, lambasted Corbyn in an article in the Guardian headlined “Labour’s antisemitism code exposes a sickness in Jeremy Corbyn’s party”.

    A blog on the Trust’s website added that the code “brazenly contravenes basic anti-racist principles”.

    The Board of Deputies and the Jewish Leadership Council, both claiming to represent Britain’s Jewish community, stated that the adoption by Corbyn’s officials of the code would “further erode the existing lack of confidence that British Jews have in their sincerity to tackle antisemitism within the Labour movement”.
    The Jewish Labour Movement, a Labour party affiliate connected to the Israeli Labor party, argued that the code was “a get out of jail free card” for antisemites, and claimed it breached equalities legislation.

    Ephraim Mirvis, the UK’s chief rabbi, called the code “a watershed moment” for Labour and warned that it sent “an unprecedented message of contempt to the Jewish community”.

    Dozens of rabbis backed him, accusing the Labour leadership of having “chosen to ignore the Jewish community”.

    And the Campaign Against Antisemitism, a pro-Israel lobby group, argued that “the code seems to be designed to give free rein to certain forms of antisemitic discourse”.

    Yet none of them have anything to say about Labour still using it.

    1. Of all the Racism people are subjected to, abusing ones own people’s tragic events as a weapon for political gains must be the most despicable and horrific form of racism ever!
      This has been shouted all of 2015 to 2020, how many people were ruined because they said it! I hope every single one of them make a serious case against all involved!
      I have shared this simple search on Twitter for years and in itself the undeniable abuse is in the dates of Spikes.
      Jeremy “became an Antisemite” in 2015 and ended his “Serial Antisemitism” on 13 December 2019!

  14. The Labour Party will never be allowed to be a ‘Socialist’ Party, as Jeremy Corbyn & Michael Foot demonstrated. The perception industry will always unite with the same message to ensure that ‘Socialism’ is defeated. Any politician with a radical Socialist agenda will be marginalised & alienated in a form of ‘no platforming’. As Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis pointed out in his AIPAC address, both Bernie Sanders & Jeremy Corbyn were guilty as charged; for anti-Semitism see Socialism.
    The only acceptable ‘Socialist’ is the Zionist Tony Blair as Blairites still dominate Labour Party positions of power & only Blairites are provided with a platform to speak ‘on behalf ‘ of the Labour Party on MSM, especially BBC. with the Guardian being ‘the left wing’ newspaper of choice. Does it matter who owns & controls our 4th Estate & that the chairman of the BBC recently donated £400K to the Tory Party? Does it matter that ‘Her Majesty’s Party of Opposition’ declines to criticise, if not the most heartless then the most incompetent gov’t in living memory? We have gov’t by media & its function is to manufacture consent for dominant, right wing political ideologies.

  15. Q: When should a “h” be pronounced as “FFS”?

    A: Only in ONE case, when it follows Steve’ as in poster’s name SteveH.

    steveh “Corbyn and his team must accept some of the responsibility for their manifest failure.”

    FFS steveh. FFS!

      1. lundiel – It is a very reasonable analysis, much of which I agree with.
        I whole heartedly support PR (as I’ve made clear many times). The left and the RW are unfortunately still deluding themselves that FPTP will sweep them to victory. The left should be putting all their weight behind PR if they are ever to succeed in having any influence in parliament.
        It is worth noting that a Labour victory at the next GE with Keir Starmer as leader (who unlike the RW supports PR) could be the saving grace for all those who dream of a new ‘Socialist Party’. It’s the only chance they are likely to get for the foreseeable future. 🤔

  16. Thatcher’s Occupying Neolabour Party will never allow a Socialist Party in Nr10, not by means of the Many, voting wrong, but by means of The right Palonomics. We are still The Many, We were The Many in 2019 and we are winning the Elections year after year, however ‘they’ are the Tories and have a finger in just about every Pie imaginable.
    When it comes to GE they only need 2 Fingers in 2 Pies!
    The Electoral Commission and Shaw’s Election Supplies/CIVICA Group!
    From The Electoral Commission all they require is ‘not to change the means of transporting the Ballot Boxes’
    From Shaw’s a very simple list, to be duplicated, for the Constituencies they need to loose/win, with a Returning Officer “Volunteer” known for their hatred of Socialism/in the know.
    They don’t even need a big team/operation/many man hours, there are more than enough “for queen and country” bent special forces/military/police to perform this very simple task without any risk of whistle-blowers.

  17. But it’s not his fault if stammer shat on democracy …With the little fella’s hypocritical blessing, of course)

    And of course stammer won with more in hand than Corbyn (For wee man says so), and yet wee man only voted for stammer because he was best of a bad bunch.

      1. Centrist Dad is a derogatory slang term for older, predominantly male tossers, particularly in England, who ascribe to centrist and neoliberal beliefs and condescend to leftists as being unrealistic.

      2. Says the imbecile who tells us the voice of people like me ‘doesn’t count for anything’

        No denial about allowing keith to shit on democracy though, eh?

      3. Toffee – You are self evidently not the voice of the people.

      4. Says the imbecile who told us that not having s second ref policy would see the libdims gain exponentially at labours expense.

        How did that one work out, then?

        And the same idiot who who truly believed that 70% of labour membership would see the party romp home in the election

        And what happened?

        And all this, after he wailed that the referendum was undemocratic because 37% didn’t vote in it.

        I suppose that makes YOU more knowledgeable than me about public opinion does it, soft shite?

        A word of advice, don’t teach yer granny how to suck eggs.

      5. Toffee – I see you are blowing your own trumpet again, it’s surprising how often you feel the need to do that. Does it bolster your sense of worth.

        I suggest you read the series of articles that lundiel very kindly linked to.

        ps: Where did you dream up the idea that I’ve ever said “that the referendum was undemocratic because 37% didn’t vote in it. “It is certainly not something that I have ever said.

      6. No I’m not blowing my own trumpet, soft shite.

        I’ve never claimed to be any voice of the people. You did that .

        But I’m infinitely more in touch with public perception than some deluded denialist like you who has predicted absolutely zero correctly since you started infesting this website. History proves it so.

        Not only that, but you never actually fully commit yourself to anything; it’s always: “You should wait and see before you can say with any certainty”

        Every critical prediction by anyone, made about your greasy bastard has been proved correct… And STILL you’ll deny and obfuscate and STILL tell us we ought to wait and see.

        Which makes you some sort of masochistic retard, totally out of touch with reality.

        Always ‘jam tomorrow’ with you, isn’t it? Always with the Micawberist attitude and STILL the slimy bastard proves everyone correct… EXCEPT you.

        So, when stammer has a shit time of it, come May 6th, will you please fuck right off out of it, never to return as everyone’s tired of your usual bollocks.

        Well here’s another prediction. The party will do nowhere near what ought to be expected and you’ll still plague this site.

      7. Toffee – I’ll look forward to discussing it with you after the elections.

      8. Toffee _ I don’t recall ever referring to you as a “man of the people”, do you have a link to me saying that?

      9. No you won’t.

        You’ll start crying that I’m trolling and bullying you, as you are wont to do when I’m making you wear your arse for a hat (every day).

        You’re good at playing the victim, like the other fella. Not so good at owning your idiocy and hypocrisy, though.

        Plus ca change…

  18. As for your 37% must I really go through the same rigmarole?

    You won’t fuck off from the site when I once again prove it, so why should I bother?

    1. Toffee – That may have been a valid excuse if you had ever provided a link to me saying such a thing, but as you haven’t?

      1. Can’t be arsed just now. But I will.

        And you still won’t leave when I do because you’re some sort of shameless mental deficient.

      2. Toffee – I’ll look forward to reading your big exposé.

      3. No you won’t.

        Youll lie and obfuscate exactly like you did when you originally claimed you are glad I acknowledged thus, and again the last time you asked me to provide proof.

        You’re a lying scrupleless shithouse rat

      4. Toffee – I don’t recall you ever providing proof on anything to do with me.

  19. Here it is AGAIN, you lying little shit.

    The Toffee (597)26/05/2019 AT 5:07 PM
    But…but…but…only 37% voted leave…

    And here’s YOUR reply

    SteveH26/05/2019 AT 5:12 PM
    The Toffee (597) 26/05/2019 at 5:07 pm

    It is good to see you’ve acknowledged this

    So, go on. Off you fuck, lying little shitehawk.

    But no… Here comes some more risible bollocks designed to try to kid on otherwise…

  20. Oh my mistake… I originally said didn’t bother to vote… I meant only voted leave.

    The premise is still unchanged, and you’re still a lying rat’s bastard.

  21. *Only 37% voted leave*

    So why where you m: “Glad I acknowledged it?”

    It’s because you said it made the referendum undemocratic on several previous occasions.

    Now, about that denial…

    1. Toffee – I don’t really care much either way. The fact remains is that I have never claimed that the abstentions invalidated the ballot which according to the Supreme Court Justices didn’t have any force in law. Is that really the best you could come up with out of all the comments that I have posted on this site. A comment that doesn’t prove what you claim it does.
      As for why I posted this comment, well that’s easy. I was simply taking the piss out of your long running dispute with RH.

  22. You’ve gone quiet all of a sudden… No quick response, and a lot more telling – No last word.

      1. Yes – in your Caribbean rat’s nest.

        So the next time you tell me MY voice doesn’t matter, just remember at least I’ve stayed here to try and sort the shit that twats like YOU left behind.

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