Analysis comment

Video: footballer Gary Neville slams Starmer’s lack of opposition: “You’ve got to take a position… [he’s] sat in the stand while the home team had a clear run”

Starmer’s abstention habit exposed by footballer with a track record of straight talking and putting his money where his mouth is

Ex-footballer Gary Neville has shown himself willing to speak out against wrongdoing and to back his words up with actions, even at his own cost. In March this year, as the first lockdown loomed, he put his hotels at the disposal of the NHS and announced that any staff who weren’t needed at work because of the pandemic would still be paid – before any government furlough schemes were announced.

And a year ago, in the run-up to the general election, he exposed Boris Johnson’s racism during a live Sky Sports broadcast.

So his condemnation during a Sky News interview this morning of Keir Starmer for ‘sitting in the stand’ while Johnson, whose mismanagement of the pandemic response has cost tens of thousands of needless deaths, has a ‘clear run’ to damage working-class communities carries even more weight than the mere facts he highlighted:

It seems Gary Neville is more an opposition leader than ‘we’ll support whatever the government wants to do’ Keir Starmer.

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  1. Did I mention my dog would have won in 97, look at opposition from Tories, it was nonexistent, Hague, Duncan Disorderly and Howard, did i mention one of my dogs doo doos would have beaten them, they won less seats than we have now
    You have to be special people to let them back in
    No challenge until 2017 and we all know what happened in that election
    Temporary Embarrassment is not long for this Labour Party

    1. Doug you did declare your dog a better opposition leader.
      SB – “It seems Gary Neville is more an opposition leader than ‘we’ll support whatever the government wants to do’”

      Drop the “seems”. Gary Neville, Doug’s dog, anyone prepared to stand up, defend their beliefs and their reputations AHEAD of THE CURVE IS opposition. Starmer will never provide meaningful opposition to outfits he’s desperate to please.
      Starmer and Tories – Two cheeks of the same backside. Guard-rats protecting SERCO, G4S, Deloitte and other bandits. Starmer will NEVER utter a single condemnation of his lot🚨🚨🚨

    2. We were united in nintey seven and we had a landslide,dont denigrate a hard fought victory against the “machine” .WE worked our socks off to save Britain from nearly twenty years of Thatcherism.We turned around the perception of hopelessness in Britain and fought with a brilliant election campaign for the things we believed in.We had a brilliant young leader who had new ideas and a new dynamics of fighting an election,computers and phone banks to identify the “possible” voters and we trounced the Tory machine and their right to rule…Reality bit after a very short time and the “market system”inside the NHS and the PRI .. initutive of the torys was expanded and built upon the will of the bankers. Our Tony could have chosen to be a tory boy as a young man,but he didn’t and chose the Labour party to advance equality and the ordinary people.He didn’t start off as a Tory but background and education do matter and he became a convert to George Bush and the seductive power of politics.His dad was a tory and he moved in a tory world of establishment and lawyers,barristers and God bless the queen,.He was corrupted by the system.This Labour party today is a shadow of the Labour party and things can only get worse for the working-class,under the the knight.A knight could never in 97have been elected to the Labour party by the membership,so it says more about the Labour party and the membership than about the scum that bothered to vote and the same applys to the British people who bothered to vote for a classic example of Toryism public schoolboys and all..We all will regret it..but as per usual its the working-class that will suffer..The corruption of politics is the big issue here and quite frankly thats why we are soul searching and in disarray with a party and a voting public who have been corrupted by the idea of climbing the ladder and the age old money tree 🌳.Some of us are just tired and fed up with the same old make do and mend and thats why we left the Labour party,but don’t denigrate the work we tried and failed to do for the working-class.,

  2. Not quite right. Starmer has a position, His position is: don’t have a position. It’s not a lack of strategy. It IS the strategy. I’ve described Starmer before as a magnolia Macbeth. Bland but ambitious. He calculates that by avoiding putting himself on the line about anything he will one day be able to sneak into 10 Downing St via the back door once Johnson has well and truly fucked everything up. The fact that Johnson will by then be dumped by the Tories and Sunak (probably) will be the PM obviously hasn’t occurred to Starmer. It has occurred to him that he will lose a great many Labour voters (virtually all the left), but he’s made a calculation that he’ll be able to replace those with disillusioned Tories who see him as a Tory by any other name, hence his one area of decisiveness: purging the party of socialism and courting the MSM and A/S lobby. He’s obviously troubled still by Banquo’s ghost (Jeremy Corbyn), but has got Ghostbusters to put him in a wee box, so all’s well, for now at least.

    So no Gary. It’s a big mistake to think that Starmer is drifting along clueless and either scared or unable to oppose. It’s a matter of keep it bland, fully engage with the powerful forces of the establishment, get rid of the socialist riff-raff, and Bob’s your uncle (or more precisely, Keir’s your PM). It’s not so much a matter of: ‘Is this a dagger I see before me?’ as:

    ‘Stars hide your fires. Let not light see my black and deep desires. The eye wink at the hand.’

    1. noelstevenson12 – “It’s a matter of keep it bland” – i share your basic view of Starmer, ie beneath contempt. But, you describe, acts which are not “bland” to me. Starmer encouraged the anti-Semitic lies against Jeremy and us. Bland? He and his lot break every rule as his type always do, to silence all who disagrees with his dishonesty.

      Starmer’s 1% guarding lot, work overtime with scams which work over and over. Push emotional buttons, silence all who disagree with them. Not bland. Base. Dull in manner but Starmer has a disgusting record. Starmer’s doing as his record. Predictable. Predicted. The PURGE, the desperate bullying to silence those against the Same Old Same Old is typical of well organised Starmer types. Focused and no shame. They only have to deceive sufficient numbers to trust them🚨🚨🚨

      1. Signpost. I actually mentioned the chief anomaly, Starmer’s one area of decisiveness being his purge of the left. But you are right to emphasise this. The persona I referred to is contrasted with a brutal vindictive side, both components of the same strategy, namely his own advancement as a RW Labour Party leader who sees himself as a PM in waiting.

      2. Apologies noelstevenson12 for missing that🌹 But let’s harvest good from every corner. ie opportunity to “emphasise” Starmer’s: PURGE of “the Left”, vindictiveness, self-serving ruthless propagation STILL, lies accusing possibly the one person in the history of the world who is not, of being anti-Semitic.
        In my book that is unforgivable. That’s only one of Starmer’s most unbearably nasty doings… and there’s lots from which to choose🚨🚨🚨

  3. So, if you want to fight back against Tory ideology, best not wait for a LP initiative cmds, cos it won’t be coming anytime soon. Stormer and his sycophants are far too busy expelling the membership, ripping up the rule book, who expect the LP to be different from the Tories.
    Nothing to stop activists getting together in your own area to expose the Tories, and capitalism, for what they are. Sooner the better, as it’s only a matter of time before the fascists get their act together, buoyed by the lack of opposition; they’ll portray themselves as the savior of the working class.

    1. No confidence in Sir Starmer. Never had confidence in the plotter anyway. No confidence in Evans to do any decent thing. Evans brags about his indecent views. No support, respect nor “unity” with them. None with any PRIORITY of ending the long running exploitation of all of us, ENDING the “Same old Same old”, could trust… HOPE that entrenched guard-dogs of the corrupt one percent, could be “converted”🚨🚨🚨

      1. Nothing to be “worked out” “sorted out” “compromised” out. The only OUT is to drive them out. SCRUB them out. FLUSH the saboteurs out. Lift not a single leaflet. No phoning, envelope stuffing, pavement tramping, admin for those who boasted about undermining Jeremy and us. Stick not a single stamp for saboteurs. Assisting Starmer by any means is disgraceful.
        Hoping he throws a few crumbs, is pathetic.🚨🚨🚨

      2. windchimes – I seem to remember another minority faction of the party doing the same thing in 2017.

      3. SH were the plotters a “minority faction”? Hmmm interesting. Anyway, as stated here since your SIR deceived the membership, the rest of us MUST return YOUR property YOUR oneway “loyalty” and oneway “unity”. ASAP . They used it to undermine Jeremy and our victory so it stunk the party out. Take it back in SH, its yours.

      4. windchime – “were the plotters a “minority faction”? Hmmm interesting.”
        Surely this was clearly illustrated by the clear results in both of JC’s leadership elections.
        I’m surprised by how quickly the self appointed guardians of ‘the left’ have put principle aside to adopt the methodology of the RW.

      5. SH – “the clear results in both of” Jeremy’s “leadership elections” were delivered by the MEMBERSHIP including me🌹 What “was clearly illustrated by” a MAJORITY in the PLP, was treachery, gross dishonesty, and disregard for membership’s choice – CHANGE🌹 CLEAR choice for Jeremy. Your lot never helped. Your RW lot admitted openly that “they woke up everyday thinking of new ways to undermine Jeremy.” Dianne Abbott recently said, Jeremy did everything to love them but they did not love him back.
        YOUR lot show, with utter clarity, they are entryist parasites. Your “methodology of the RW” must be returned to your “RW”.

        They will not deliver values they worked night and day to undermine. They’ll not START what they STOPPED. They named their plot – “STOP CORBYN”.
        They stopped what they feared. Your lot feared Jeremy would CHANGE the status quo. Obviously SH steveh, your right wing Starmers & Co, don’t “put principles aside.” Right Wingers can’t “put principles aside”. They have none🚨🚨🚨

      6. windchime – On the contrary, I voted for JC in both leadership elections, I also spoke out very strongly against the ‘plotters’ at the time and I have in general supported Corbyn throughout his tenure as leader.
        It is time that you accepted that for whatever reason Jeremy failed and realistically he is never going to return to front-line politics. Couple this with the unlikelihood that Jeremy will even stand in 2024 then it is time to look to the future.
        We can be guided by the past but we can’t be slaves to it or its failed heroes. We must also learn from it as well.
        Indulging in nostalgic rose tinted visions of what might have been whilst seeking to undermine the party because just like the RW with Jeremy you can’t accept the democratic wish of the membership is not going to help Labour win in 2024.

      7. SteveH, clarify what “help Labour” means. Labour must have values. It is a nonsense that Starmer et al who WORKED to make us lose, should get your help to do more harm.
        Glad u voted 4 Jeremy then. Apologies, thinking u gullibly OR wickedly voted for any of the vision free parasitic contenders. However u must accept, expecting milk from a stone, healthy cakes from a rat, potable water straight from a sewer, anything good from bad bad bad news Starmer. No decent person should be complicit by enabling Starmer. No one with allies Evans et al, who BLOCK attempts to feed children here, in Palestine nor anywhere else will have anything other that the support they gave Jeremy, SteveH. The pathetic cycle of fantasy settling for crumbs must stop🚨🚨🚨

    2. Unfortunately, your final sentence is all too likely, potatoclock ! At every historical juncture of capitalist crisis, when the Left fails to offer a robust socialist response – the pseudo-radical Far Right take advantage. And who can deny that current global capitalism has been in deep stagnation, low profitability, and plundered by an out of control parasitic financial sector, since the 2008 Crash , and the utter failure by the bought-up via bribery, political classes, to deal with the financial chicanery that provoked it . And now add in the shock of covid19.

      Across Europe the collapse of traditional social democratic parties into neoliberalism has led to a comprehensive outflanking by the chauvinist, divisive, pseudo radical populist Far Right. In the UK, the more civilised phenomenum of the policy outflanking to the LEFT of Labour in Scotland by the (in the 1960’s previously very neo-Tory – and in the 1930’s , openly fascist) SNP , with its sentimental ‘bogus oppressed nation’ victimhood-claiming fantasy re-writing of Scottish history, is a less toxic, but still related , reaction to the political collapse of the utterly corrupt, cronyism of Scottish Labour.

      There IS a huge global economic crisis coming , on the heels of the ‘covid19 profit loss shock’ – but Starmer’s re-heated neoliberalism-embracing Blairism will have no traction at all with the millions of increasingly desperate poorer working class voters a Labour victory depends on . Meanwhile the UK ‘Left’ is wasting its collective time still fighting to ‘win back control’ of a Party , NuLabour MK2, which has surely PROVEN in a comprehensive experiment from 2015 to 2019, that it can never be used as a vehicle for Left advance, no matter how tepid and limited in scope as most of the Corbyn ‘Left proposals were (with taking control of the vital banking system simply disappearing immediately after Jeremy’s first , 2015, Leadership win ).

      The ideological flexibility , and unscrupulous opportunism, of Far Right Populism, was briefly, but dramatically, demonstrated by the extraordinary huge gains, from nothing, of the Brexit Party in the 2019 EU MEP elections . Come the next crisis, this time a dramatic economic one, with massive unemployment levels, and the next Brexit Party-style opportunist Far Right , pseudo radical, insurgent Party/movement, might well be led by a real radical fascist demagogue like Tommy Robinson, not the ‘Saloon Bar Tory’ con man , Nigel Farage . And if that happens we are all in real trouble , as the Left currently is across Europe. It was only the hope for change engendered by the short-lived ‘Corbyn Left Surge’ that stopped the Labour Party also collapsing like its European Mainland sister parties like PASOK and the French Socialist Party (and indeed the German SPD – now in permanent coalition with the Christian Democrats, ie German Tories ! ) . DARK days ahead – and it is the middle class, diversionary identity politics-saturated, Labour Party swamp obsessed, Left Liberal ,not socialist. politics-based UK ‘Left’, that will be as responsible as the corrupt NuLabour neoliberal Blairite Right, for the quite likely mass take-off of a very sinister neo fascist Party of the populist Far Right – that will make the Brexit Party of 2019 seem like a bunch of harmless nationalistic old ladies.

      1. jpenney. I think we already have a a very sinister neo fascist Party of the populist Far Right , in embryo if not quite yet fully formed. Johnson’s Tory Party is exactly that, and was moving quickly in a very sinister way to concentrate power in the leader and his close Downing St group, and scare the shit out of Tory dissenters (that hadn’t already been sacked). Openly attacking the judiciary and talking of limiting its powers, seeking to undermine parliament, controlling information (eg Russian report), and daily spinning lie after lie Josef Goebells style, the seeds of fascism were there for all to see, and Cummings was Fuhrer Johnson’s Martin Bormann (see below). Enter Covid and exit Cummings, and the fascist push looks distinctly tottery now, with many jolly good old fashioned Tories wanting the jolly good old fashioned Tory party back. . . . so Johnson is happily becoming a failed experiment and may not last too long . . . but that remains to be seen.
        But generally I agree with you. Love ‘Starmer’s re-heated neo-liberalism!’ though I actually see him as a fascist in the making given time and the opportunity.
        Where I disagree with you is your assertion that some time hence we may be in real trouble. I think we already are.

        Martin Bormann

        ‘Martin Ludwig Bormann was a German Nazi Party official and head of the Nazi Party Chancellery. He gained immense power by using his position as Adolf Hitler’s private secretary to control the flow of information and access to Hitler.’

  4. WE all know Starmer does nothing that will rock the Tory vote in order he hopes to attract Tory “centrist” votes at the next election. This might or might not happen – who is to say at this stage – but I will say this .
    While it is absolutely clear that Black, Arab and Muslim lives don’t matter to the party hierarchy – the promise that1000s and 1000s of Pro Palestinians will be expelled from the party, the negativity towards our Black brothers and sisters, the refusal to allow a fundraising event for Palestinian children because it was “anti-Semitic – Black , Muslim and Arab votes matter to the party and without them Labour has no chance of winning the next election.
    It also needs to be brought home to Starmer that without our Socialist activists ( many of whom have already been expelled) our Muslim activists ( who are facing wholesale expulsion if they object to Israeli policy towards their fellow Muslims ) and Black activists ( who even in 2020 have to struggle for equality and the right no to be murdered by some racist policeman ) are not there to run phone banks and knock on doors we will not be able to campaign properly and that will have a devastating effect on the outcome of the election.
    While the Labour party under Starmer continues to treat these members with contempt they must expect pay back at the polls and during the campaign and can forget forming a government following the next election.
    I hope our BAME members make this clear to Starmer as self preservation if not common decency might make him do the right thing.

    1. It seems Gary Neville is more an opposition leader than ‘we’ll support whatever the government wants to do’ Keir Starmer

      No disrespect to Neville, but an empty tub of the axle grease stammer uses on his Barnet’d make a better opposition leader than stammer.

  5. potatoclock – “[the Tories will} portray themselves as the saviour of the working class.”
    FFS. In the 19GE, for the first time ever, more of the working class voted for Boris and the Tories than voted for Corbyn and Labour so the Tory’s have already been there and done that very successfully under the Corbyn’s leadership.
    However it is good to see that there is some light at the end of the tunnel, reality is kicking in and the Red Wall are suffering from buyers regret.

    1. SteveH
      You plainly don’t have a 1st in the bleedin obvious
      The Brexit election was lost by Temporary Embarrassment
      The Red Wall is wafer thin for the cheap and nasties but impossible for the Leave Denier to breach
      Your backing a one legged man in an arse kicking contest

      1. Doug – ……and yet it is Keir who is gradually winning back the Labour vote in those seats.
        Analysis estimates that Keir Starmer’s party could win back 36 out of 45 seats lost in the last election if the current voting intentions were played out in an election on a uniform swing today. This would see the Tories hold on to only nine of those constituencies.

      2. Whoo-hoo!! Thirty-six out of forty-five seats they could win back, eh, little fella??

        Get the bunting out lads and lasses, the labour party’s back in business!!

        Jesus wept…

      3. Toffee – it is good to see that you at least have the good grace to admit that you were wrong.

      4. What the fuck are you dribbling on about now, moron?

        You’re constantly claiming stammer is far more popular than Corbyn ever was, yet it’s reported he could, COULD(?) win back thirty six of forty five seats.

        COULD…for complete fucks sake, this is THE worst toerag government in all of history and stammer can’t even TAKE a toerag seat… And you think that’s something to jerk yourself off about?

        And let’s suppose the DID REGAIN those thirty six of the forty five seats…That’d see stammerism ‘enjoying’ only 80% of the popularity Corbyn had, nor would it see stammerist labour TAKE any previously (pre 2019) held tory held seats.

        So who’s wrong… Again??

        Gobshite. Hurry up and die slowly you utter cretin.

      5. Toffee – Well that sounds all fine and dandy until you factor in that it was Jeremy’s lack of leadership that lost these seats in the first place. How did Jeremy do against a Boris that didn’t even have a majority, he gifted the Tories an 80 seat majority.

      6. Wrong again, moron
        How many more times does it have to be explained that it was your problem with reality as well as politics and basic arithmetic that lost the party the seats…that a d your support for the shithouses that actually conspired to throw the election… No we haven’t forgotten.

        You were repeatedly warned about it, but banked on the fucking idiotic premise that your precious 70% of the membership on its own was enough to win the election.

        But then again you claimed that 16m is bigger than 17m and that Attlee, Bevin and co were remainders.

        Because your a fucking weirdo.

      7. Toffee – You are the one desperately trying to defend your position. Repetitive ranting isn’t going to make your nonsense true.

      8. Oh do stop with your pathetic evasive tactics you simpleton. You’re just not capable of besting anybody, let alone meself, so why bother?

        You’re the one claiming regaining 36 of 45 seats is somehow some sort of triumph when it’s a fucking catastrophic failure.

        I’ve just undisputably proved to you that your own delusional bragging about stammer’s alleged popularity defies reality.

        And you’re still to answer any question on why you’re NOT a Tory when you openly support a Tory who brags about his unveiled support for tory policies and opposes not a single one.

        Dilutional (sic) toerag retard.

      9. Toffee – It was Corbyn who lost the seats, Starmer has made good progress in just a few months, there’s plenty of time to win back the rest and more besides.
        Can you find me one poll that shows that Corbyn has ever had a higher leadership approval rating than Starmer.

      10. Winning back 36 of 45 seats will do nothing but prove beyond all doubt that stamner can’t even clean up the splatter from Corbyn’s assassination.

        For fucks sake he doesn’t even have the confidence of a shitload (and growing daily) of his own CLPs..And still you bang his drum laughably claiming he’s more popular than Corbyn. (How many no confidence votes did Corbyn even get, nevermind LOSE? )

        How utterly deficient. And you think it’s something worth bragging about, you total imbecile.

      11. Toffee – See my response to you above, I can’t be bothered to keep repeating myself for your dumb arse.

      12. Doug I wish you would stop with the “temporary embarrassment” crap.Don’t you get it?hes not temporary although I agree hes a embarasment for the membership that voted for him. I can understand that you wish to stop the bleeding away of the Labour membership and in that you are correct.but describing the knight and all the title means and suggests about the membership of the Labour party is the embarrassing situation.You either remove him now or your tempory embarrassing Labour party are finished and your permenant embarrassing leader will destroy the Labour party.

    2. SH it was BREXIT. The plotters Mandelson & co AND their most committed MSM allies are ALL admitting now that BREXIT delivered the Red Wall to Cummings’ Johnson. You know that. You saw the pleading here by others and by me. On the election day, i was begging, BEGGING including here on our traditional base to forgive us. Check my posts.

      That’s why it’s despicable the bullying by McNiv, AH and now Smartboy. Go back ( not you or them who already read every word ) others in search of truths should go read my posts themselves. Don’t be bamboozled by AH’s twists and turns. Read posts for yourself.

      NEVER give in to bullies, especially those like McNiven who has said he is not in the party. Nor AH always asking for others to divulge personal info when he has never said which CLP etc he’s in … if any.

      Give any primary school child, Allan Howard’s conflicting accounts of his failure to act with basic decency to one he first said was an “elderly gentleman” on the gents floor in a pub. Read the conflicts ie LIES. Even claiming no one escapes his “headlock” when in his first account he states clearly that he walked away to finish his drink WITH HIS FREIND. So it’s not as if he was alone.

      Howard’s tale is long but read it. Then you will see what “the Left” is up against. Note the brazen lies. Give AH’s accounts to any child as an exercise in critical reading. Spot the inconsistencies. The lies and back tracking are typical of infiltrators.

      Read re: Richard Cole’s brother’s “Spy Cop” infiltration of the environmentalist movement. They push emotional buttons, but heres’s the key. Look for consistency in ACTION. Look for coherence. Look for un provoked insults. Fine if one gives as one gets, but to call even new posters liars etc from the get go UNPROVOKED as Allan Howard did from the start, is certainly neither logical nor decent.

      They will frighten some. I’m not for frightening. One more thing what age group are always bleating about the youth having short attention spans, dumbed down, can only cope with byte sized pap??? Yet retired people whining about long posts. How curious??? Some things cannot be unpacked in a short post. The silencers know that. THAT’s why they try to silence SELECTIVELY. Read for yourselves and test their consistency🌹🌹🌹

      1. windchime – That’s may be your opinion, it is novel argument to claim it must be true because you are agreeing with Mandy.
        I’m simply stating that they left in Corbyn’s tenure and are returning now that Keir Starmer is leading the party. (the arch ‘Remainer’ who 70%+ of the membership agreed with)

      2. SH – you know Starmer pushed Remain to squeeze Jeremy a long time supporter of leave with Tony Benn. Note well, after the result he promptly called to trigger Article 50. Check Jeremy’s voting record. They guessed he’d be paralysed by their pushing Remain then People’s Vote. Hence the question “How did you vote” over and over.

        I got Jeremy wrong on that. Thought, as once again he was on the correct side of history, we would crush the Tories for at least a generation, as from stat to date, the EU debate was a TORY internal fight. The historical outline was presented months ago. Hoped Jeremy would educate everyone, including me, with his long held belief and his reasons shared with Tony Benn.

        The Right Wing got that right. As i’d not known of him before, had not idea of the “confrontation averse” nature. ie Jeremy prioritised getting a veneer of “peace” by avoiding his long held belief due to seeing self-defence as “confrontation”. Jeremy meant well. Starmer, Mandelson Hodge & co didn’t. BASIC LOGIC – Starmer & co have shown clearly that they are bad. They are bad news. Thus it is bad fantasy to expect even good crumbs from the saboteur Starmer. That’s why SH it’s basic logic and THE ONLY realistic approach, that every one of us should “wake up everyday thinking of new ways to” return Starmer & Co’s “loyalty”. It is odd to believe that Keith should not have his “unity” and “support” back … but ASAP. We must never take time and opportunities for granted🌹🌹🌹

      3. windchime – So I was wrong to trust Jeremy during the EU referendum campaign.

      4. Did you trust Jeremy SH? Did you? Pull another one.
        Do you trust Starmer? Mandelson? Bliar? Campbellend? Bet they trust you. Your dedicated support for them is remarkable.
        btw – How’s your Caribbean “retirement” haunt coming along❔❔❔

      5. windchimes – I voted for JC on both occasions. He told us all that he was different, a politician we could all trust. Was he lying to us.

      6. SH it’s your Starmer – coup plotter – saboteur who lied to Jeremy. Starmer traitor continues to lie to all of us. Starmer is a wilful tool of injustice. Just look at his record to date incl stitch & sewing up Jeremy. Starmer is untrustworthy. We had hope in Jeremy. Starmer offers none.
        But you claimed this v evening, EVEN YOU assessed Starmer failing to get your vote… TWICE. Thus even u considered the competitors to lead, not Tories, but the LABOUR party. SH u claim, u rejected Starmer and chose Jeremy twice, like the rest of the membership. U felt Starmer was unworthy of your support… TWICE. Starmer has not changed. Have you❔

      7. windchimes – You numpty. Starmer wasn’t on the ballot paper alongside Jeremy. However it is worth noting that during the 2020 leadership campaign pollsters asked Labour members how they would vote if JC was on the ballot paper alongside KS,RLB and LN. An outright majority still voted for Keir giving him a first round win whilst Jeremy only got about 30% of the vote.

      8. In my CLP, your Starmer scraped through on second prefs. Re Starmer not on ballot č Jeremy – i group treacherous plotters as v much the same, esp as they act with one CLEAR foul motive. TWICE you claim you refused to vote for those who share filthy Starmer aims. Starmer, knowing his despicable record thought none would stoop vote for him, did not want humiliation. Back room controllers made obvious peculiars eg Owen Smith, Angela Eagle, etc to be humiliated instead. Plan is to make way for Ummummian like overrated other 1%er Miliband D.
        Events dear retiring to the Caribbean man. Events. The Cameron ref was THE event to undermine Jeremy. IRA etc stuff failed and anti-Semitism lies were failing too. Note the glittering success of rabid Josephine Swinson, CUKKA Ummumma, Soubrey all of them, Limp Dims the lot, oh and of course Berger dumped rejected by those who are either anti-Semites or were not deceived by her amateur dramatics in North London. These facts must be repeated. So pull another one SH it’s all in your court and u persist. Many should learn. You are a free free butt for rebuttals but u work. U’ve more than earned six hundred and sixty six Caribbean villa retirees 🚨🚨🚨

      9. windchimes – What we all noted to our cost was the didastrous failure at the 19GE of Labour under JC’s leadership.

        ps Jeremy’s own CLP nominated Keir Starmer for the leadership alongside by far the biggest slice of CLPs many of whom had previously nominated JC. Didn’t his nearest rival get less than half the number of nominations that Keir got..

      10. Signpost. Mark Twain reputedly said:

        ‘Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.’

        I ‘d give the same advice to a few good people here.

      11. nowlstevenson12 – prob č that approach, it allows lies to take root = eg Starmer. NB “good people here” complain all the time about repeated MSM lies. Without alternatives presented, a sufficient number, believe them. Beliefs compounded by our failure to rebut them. Blessed with to rebut MSM lies, use it.

        NB i focus on basics trying to understand what has been going wrong. I steer away from rabbit holes which have no traction on the general public eg words, their meanings and the history. Greeks, Romans, Pharisees Sadducees etc LOVED standing about talking about such. We can see the same today.

        Re “fools” – In my opinion people are not fools. We have different intelligences. Doubt i’v ever met a fool. All of us do foolish things for complex reasons… causes we are yet to fully understand. SteveH, davidh, SH is no fool. Basic Brexit lie must be debunked. If lies need no repeated debunking, why do our enemies spend BILLIONS every year reminding people to buy stuff they don’t need? We must never ignore lies in public life. Disagreements at the dinner table or on the allotment are often not crucial. Few are affected. It is a different kettle of fish in public life. The last five years prove that. We must not repeat that politically tragic error of feeling so relaxed and right that rebutting lies are beneath us🌹🌹🌹

      12. Signpost….SHe hasnt rceplied to your asking about Caribbean bolt hole in the sun 🌞…..I suspect its looking a bit iffy after SH..davidh steveh volunteered his mum for first in the line for vaccine testing?.I think it’s now all up in the air after his “mum wouldnt let me” …Still though somebody must love him even if its only his mummy.

      13. Joseph – Why do you feel the need to resort to telling silly lies to support your nonsense, is that all you’ve got left?

      14. 😂😂😂 with joseph!
        🤣🤣🤣 AT SH davidh SteveH etc

      15. Jeremy Corbyn suffered the same problem as Michael Foot………a nice man with ‘Socialist Principles; Honesty; Integrity & a dislike of wars & social injustice wherever it is found’. Unlike Starmer & Blair, the establishment & their MSM could never allow real people with a decent moral compass anywhere near the corridors of power. It appears that the USA is experiencing the same problem.

      16. Steve Richards, yes “the USA is experiencing the same” ie having “Socialist Principles” and vast membership support yet “doing everything they” the warmongers “ask.” ie trying to appease “the establishment & their MSM”. Sanders withdrew twice. Endless social media traffic and support, yet gave in TWICE. The “allow” is an attitude. Look at South Africa and Cuba in particular. Two places where people were committed to standing up for their beliefs

    3. You are of course wrong. As always.

      Here you go (you can find many more articles debunking your hypothesis).

      “For decades the Labour party has ignored the concerns of its traditional working-class support. Beginning with Blair and Brown and continuing with Miliband, Labour has been wedded to an unpopular, outdated politics of borrow-tax-and-spend, using state control to dictate from the centre while unleashing the forces of the global ‘free market’ that invade every aspect of our lives – health, housing, transport, education and the family. All this has provided more opportunities for the few while also generating new levels of inequality and insecurity for the many. Freedom has undoubtedly increased, but paradoxically so has dependency. As state and market have grown more powerful, so local government and people have lost autonomy. Worker self-organisation and participation in both politics and the economy were at the roots of the labour movement and instrumental in the creation of the Labour Party. For at least 25 years, it has been pro-bureaucracy and pro-capitalism, ignoring the concerns of its core and the wider country.”

      1. Joe – …and yet mysteriously just at the point where they get a manifesto that actually caters for their own and their communities welfare and prosperity and they rather bizarrely decide to switch to voting for a proven a liar and the Tories who had been inflicting austerity on them for 10 years. Jeremy lost the electorate’s trust through his own (in)actions. Lose trust, especially when it’s your USP, and it’s game over.

      2. SH it’s Starmer’s Remainiacry. Remain craze pushed by Starmer lost the GE. NB Twatson ran away from obvious defeat. Even the Twatson knew Starmer’s Remain would give the GE to Johnson.
        Jeremy got THIRTY THOUSAND something votes. Is Islington a hotbed of radical transformative views and anti-Semites? U full well know, those who suffered under successive Tory governments incl Bliar, made a protest vote against your STARMER insulting their democratic right. Mr Remain Starmer’s disregard for the heartlands DELIBERATELY gave the GE to Johnson.🚨🚨🚨

      3. windchimes – Nothing to do with Jeremy’s toxicity with the electorate or his woeful lack of leadership skills then?

      4. No SH it’s all to do with Mr Remain Starmer’s toxicity by pushing Remain. Check election results map. Jeremy reelected AGAIN✅
        Twatson ran away, CUKKA Soubrey, Swinson all of them wiped away… wiped out. Note your Berger was toxic in north London so was flushed. Starmer’s woeful lack of integrity preferred Tories to win

      5. windchimes – and yet multiple polls have consistently indicated that you are posting nonsense. I suppose Boris can take some temporary comfort from the fact that his negative vote has yet to reach the same level as Jeremy’s was.

      6. SH it’s Election poll of polls showed Jeremy got approx 35,000 votes. How many did Headroom get? Hodge? Ummumma all that super-funded Remain fevered A/S liars? Berger combined? Half of Jeremy and Dianne Abbott’s? Quarter? ok … 10% ? How many SH? Especially from Finchley and Hendon?

        NB i reply not to inform u, because u KNOW the truth. i’m using your posts to rebut lies allowed to take root. lies need rebutting to benefit the wider readership. We must look outward. Stand up and speak out. You’re a useful tool bringing lies on a platter to The rest of us need to practise crushing lies delivered to u by your bollard of deceit Starmer🚨🚨🚨

      7. windchimes – Jeremy received a total of
        34,603 votes which equates to 64.3% of the vote and this represents a 8.7% drop from the last election
        whilst Keir received a total of
        36,641 votes which equates to 64.5% of the vote and this represents a 5.6% drop from the last election
        Unfortunately for your argument Keir just beats Jeremy on all 3 metrics. Admittedly it is only marginal but it was you that chose to highlight this as an issue not me.
        I have never expressed any support for the likes of Berger and her untrustworthy ilk. I have also strongly expressed my opinion that these traitors should not be allowed back into the Labour party.

      8. U deliberately mislead. I compared Jeremy’s votes with specific Remainiacs who left the party claiming A/S + migrainous Remainiacry AND Swineson Limp Dim “Prime Minister” and Berger who was dumped‼️ ‼️‼️
        Sound evidence which your lot know – BREXIT deceit by your beloved Starmer DELIBERATELY lost the election. If Starmer had left like CUK’s Ummumma and Soubrey, Max would have been flushed away OUT OF SIGHT too.
        Pull another one🚨🚨🚨

      9. windchimes – I answered your direct question Jeremy got approx 35,000 votes. How many did Headroom get?
        As for Berger and her ilk we all knew that without Labour they were nothing so I’m struggling to see the point you are trying to make. How many votes would Jeremy get if he stood as a none Labour candidate in the next GE. As you also commentated on the thread where I expressed my opposition to Berger etc being allowed to rejoin the party I’m rather surprised by your ridiculous insinuation that I have ever supported them.

      10. SH u’r trying to distract from fact. Starmer deliberately pushed Remain to callously gift GE to Johnson. Blair endorsed Johnson. Campbellend also refused to support Labour. Election map proves BREXIT was the pivotal factor which Starmer used to make Labour lose. TREACHERY. U know it.
        Your Twatson another A/S merchant, knew it too, so ran away b4 being humiliated by the electorate.

        BERGER, Soubrey, Ummumma every single one of the TINGE / CUKS in London … REMAIN voting London, refused to vote for any of them. They had FULL MSM support. TONS of money. Remain obsessed and LIARS re vexatious claims of anti-Semitism. They all lost, were dumped, wiped away flushed down the sewer with other sewage.

        I’m glad to crush your attempts to deceive. SH, it allows the VITAL need to demolish Starmer’s narrative of lies. Narratives concocted by your “Mandy” as u knowingly called your lot’s shady creature. Says much about u. Only Bliar, Blunket, Beckett call a bastard “Mandy”⚠️⚠️⚠️

      11. windchimes – Whilst you think Keir is to blame and that he cooked up a dastardly plot to unseat Jeremy by simply expressing the views of the vast majority of the membership (70%+ according to JC) and his own very long standing views on internationalism and the EU, I think the route cause was down to Jeremy’s inadequacies as a leader.
        I would contend that the polling supports my point of view. More than ½ the country actively disapproved of Jeremy in the run up to the 19GE.
        Nobody is hiding stuff we just disagree.

      12. Look at the election RESULTS map✅✅✅

      13. SH, I’m hoping a sufficient number of the “Left” will learn from u. Despite deceitful Starmer deceiving his way to the leadership and suspending Jeremy, Naomi and other members, u and your Keith don’t sit back feeling victorious “wise” and “above” basic WORK of normalising your indefensible tosh.

        i’m neither frustrated nor saddened by your persistence. It is your right. My sadness is that STILL, despite well meaning inteligent people seeing your nonstop efforts, so many think u r stupid and wasting your time. U’re doing what u do to continue achieving your aims.

        So many are so inward looking they fail to see that. Possibly due to aloof alienated habits. Toffee, jcpenney, JackT, joseph, Doug, and a few others try hard 🥇🥇🥇They show the passion and effort needed.

        SH u and your lot despite not having a care for the many, do not see your self as “above that”. The “that” of basic defending oneself on the media Others whine and complain about the MSM, yet feel rebutting your twistings is preaching to SH or to the converted here.

        NO!!! The the increasingly wider readership from the GENERAL public need to get the alternative to SHs normalised. Get BASICS done. ie broadcasting our views with SUSTAINED maintenance… BOOSTER shots… MAINTENANCE doses…. in PUBLIC not some echo bunker of timid hiding agreement.

        So alienated from the guts of despair of the many, well meaning people treat the struggle like a rarefied tutorial or metropolitan polite chat. Habit + a lack of reflection. That is all they feel necessary to change the exploitative 1%. Ever hopeful

      1. frank – I’ve no idea, who’s this Keith guy you’re prattling on about.
        Boris is currently on -8 and Keir’s approval rating is +9.

      2. frank – I note that you’ve decided to persist with your childish nonsense rather than address the second part of my response to you.
        Boris is currently on -8 and Keir’s approval rating is +9.
        It is also worth noting that whilst they both have roughly the same approval rating Boris has 44% who disapprove of him whereas Keir only has a disapproval rating of 26%
        36% 44% N/A 19% –8
        35% 26% N/A 39% +9%
        24% 55% N/A 21% –31%
        I’ll let you guess who the third row of figures belong to.

      3. PW – An interesting read but it is undeniable that unlike recent history the current trajectory is a positive one and with 4yrs to go we have time to build on this positive trend. Thankfully the polls have continued to move away from Boris and towards Keir in the intervening 3mths since the article you linked to was published.
        When Keir took over the Labour party was 20% behind the Tories and now the party is consistently more or less level pegging, this is a significant improvement.
        It is quite novel to have a leader who polls positive results for a change and whilst I am quite happy to acknowledge polling doesn’t always translate into votes it would be difficult to argue that going into an election with over half the electorate actively disliking our leader was a positive.

      4. Moaning about Frank’s reply without you yourself offering anything other than your usual bollocks.

        You are not a shield for Keith stammer. He WILL be scrutinised and criticised for his complete uselessness and conservatism .

        And he has no fucking idea who you are, nor is he grateful for you making a complete cunt of yourself.

        But you’re just a gobshite what fancies himself as a politico, when in fact you’re just an irritating laughing stock.

      5. Toffee – Is that all you’ve got to offer. Who on earth do you imagine is impressed by your trolling.

  6. It’s not Sturmbannfuhrer Schtarmer who’s winning back anything, it’s the “borrowed” electorate returning home. Though they could still be diverted if Schtarmer keeps it up & they realise just who it was that introduced the idea of having a second (confirming) referendum.

    1. boxofskwawk – They left under Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership and they are returning under Keir Starmer’s. You can try spinning that as much as you like but it won’t alter the facts.

      1. They didn’t leave under JC, they voted for Brexit. Their vote will almost certainly come back to the LP irrespective of who leads the party or empties the waste bins. You know that. And you know that claiming it is down to Schtarmer IS spin.

      2. BoxOfSkwawk – You’re the one claiming to know stuff, not me.

      3. Dearie me, SteveH, what a shameless serial liar and mangler of historical fact you are, Troll. The Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn secured the largest vote increase since 1945 for its mildly radical 2017 Manifesto – which in addition to its other popular policies, also promised to ‘Respect the outcome of the EU Referendum ‘. Fast forward to the 2019 General Election, and, in addition to the most prolonged character assassination programme, by the ENTIRE MSM, including the BBC, in UK history, against Jeremy Corbyn, and active sabotage/smears of their own Party Leader, by the majority of the PLP, Labour reneged completely on its solemn 2017 promise to respect the Referendum result – and embraced a deliberately opaque, but in reality, 2nd Referendum and Remain position. Jeremy, by then isolated even from the EU-loving Momentumite NEC members , had no choice but accede to this policy reversal – as even his own PLP Old Comrades had joined the Right in demanding this disastrous new policy. Other than this betrayal over Brexit the 2019 Manifesto was very similar to the hugely popular 2017 one.

        So it was Jeremy Corbyn being forced to adopt the toxic 2nd Referendum and Remain betrayal of the Brexit promise, and the unprecedented deluge of character assassination, which lost all those Heartland Labour voters – NOT Jeremy Corbyn , the man. And a key plotter in getting Labour to betray its 2017 promise on Brexit was one, Keir Starmer. The man who actually doesn’t give a toss about Brexit, in or out , and who, now he is Leader, is upsetting all the staunch and/or gullible Labour Remainers by demanding Labour MPs vote for the Tory Brexit deal, no matter what !

        The betrayal of Labour on Brexit – Brexit ALONE, lost all those Heartland Labour voters , not Jeremy Corbyn, The Party membership is plummeting, and will continue to plummet, as warmed-over Blairism has no attraction in 2020 to anyone but the well-off middle class Guardianista class. The Labour vote will continue to plummet too, for the same reason – and as soon as local elections are held once more , the corruption and cronyism, and willingness of Labour councils to implement Tory Austerity for 10 years will lead to a major wipe-out of Labour-held councils in our old heartlands too – as has already happened in Bolton and Stoke and elsewhere – replaced by a range of dodgy ‘localist’ councilors and cobbled-together coalition ruling claques.

        You are of course merely a paid , script-following, troll, SteveH, but your scripted fantasy that under the wooden Trllateral Commission creature, Keir Starmer , the Party membership will INCREASE, and the old Labour voters will return, is beyond satire !

      4. jpenney, I detect a note of panic in your rant probably because you can see the wheels falling off Brexit. Because you are a Brexit fanatic, even though you have no time for Corbyn because he is not left enough for you, you have to contend that it wasn’t him who lost labour the Red Wall seats. You know quite well It was the undermining of him by your mates the Zionists which cost those seats not the desire to give voters a chance to confirm their Brexit choice.

        An opinion pole shows that even with Starmer a Remainer as Leader, if a vote was held, most of those seats would return to Labour. It’s time you and other Brexit fanatics faced it, you were had by the lies and promises of the far right represented by Farage.

        In fact it pains me to say it but you and others should have listened to John Major:

      5. You twisted little liar….you know full well that the knight and Evans are covering up the bleeding away of the membership.I had a email only yesterday saying if I didn’t renew m my membership in the next month my membership would lapse.I finished for good in july with the Labour party and allowed my membership to lapse.I informed international Labour comrades as a matter of curtesy and had a very understanding letter from the Secretary…..Them barstewards at HQ and the rest of the “machine dont deserve curtesy or good manners.So mr liar shill and paid troll your knight is pannicking along with ,Kinnock,hodges and all you other parasites of the broad church brigade….youve shot your bolt and its blown back in your mutant faces…comrade?as I am still on the books..!

      6. Joseph – Given your long standing history with the Labour party I’m surprised that you aren’t more familiar with the rule book. You will continue to receive communications from the party for 6 months, Here’s an extract from the rule book page 16.
        C. . A member shall be deemed to be in arrears from the expiry date of their membership until they renew their subscription.
        D. . A member shall be deemed to have lapsed from membership if s /he has been in arrears for six months and has not responded to a request to pay the arrears.

        The same rules were in place throughout Jeremy’s tenure.

      7. Yeah, because they’re all flocking towards the labour party in the same numbers they did under the first 8 months of Corbyns tenure, aren’t they?

        Errr …. No! Although not haemorrhaging the numbers most of us expect he’s done will be some weird victory in your warped, wrong ‘un mind, won’t it?

        So YOU can spin it any way YOU like. There’s dozens of CLPs voted no confidence in the gawp.

        How many no confidence votes did Corbyn lose…it was NONE, wasn’t it?

        None, nix, zero, zilch, diddly… Not fucking dozens AND counting.

        Dilutional (sic) imbecile.

      8. Toffee – And what happened after the first 8mths, a continuing steady growth or a downward trajectory to the 440,000 that were still members by the time we got to the 19GE?

  7. Wonderful,wonderful news.WE might have a Sir keir this time next year we will be merrily dancing and knocking on doors proclaiming the second coming of the Messia…St Rodney the knight from Surrey…and his Sir keir The name just might catch on judas H,but if you want the name Labour party its going to be a little bit more difficult than the 2 horse scam young socialists that our young keir set up unatatched to the Labour party and basically a right wing little and large twosome of anti socialists in Surrey.Now I wonder who has thought up the AS scam?

      1. SH – “the clear results in both of” Jeremy’s “leadership elections” were delivered by the MEMBERSHIP including me🌹 What “was clearly illustrated by” a MAJORITY in the PLP, was treachery, gross dishonesty, and disregard for membership’s choice – CHANGE🌹 CLEAR choice for Jeremy. Your lot never helped. Your RW lot admitted openly that “they woke up everyday thinking of new ways to undermine Jeremy.” Dianne Abbott recently said, Jeremy did everything to love them but they did not love him back.
YOUR lot show, with utter clarity, they are entryist parasites. Your “methodology of the RW” must be returned to your “RW”.
        They will not deliver values they worked night and day to undermine. They’ll not START what they STOPPED. They named their plot – “STOP CORBYN”.
They stopped what they feared. Your lot feared Jeremy would CHANGE the status quo. Obviously SH steveh, your right wing Starmers & Co, don’t “put principles aside.” Right Wingers can’t “put principles aside”. They have none🚨🚨🚨

      2. windchimes – You are welcome to try and prove your rather silly and childish accusations against myself.

      3. What accusations? SH is it that: PLP majority undermined Jeremy and our GE win? … Right Wing are v organised + focused on a singular aim – protect status quo? … speak up like you do, focussed on YOUR basic – defend the indefensible Starmer who undermined MEANINGFUL change by undermining Jeremy? … that the Right Wing have no principles, so can’t put aside that which they lack SH? It’s yours. SH it’s in your court. Keep it🚨🚨🚨

      4. windchime – Well at least we can all now conclude that your claims against me are just meaningless drivel.

      5. SH it’s your “meaningless drivel” which exposes u. You STILL work night and day promoting Max Headroom who “worked night and day to undermine Jeremy” and to sabotage a Labour victory to Cummings’ Johnson. Are u promoting Keith or not❔ Are u defending the treacherous, coup plotter, protector of Hodge, Phillips, the 1%❔ R u telling us to support your Keith❔ Your Headroom who even suspended Jeremy and withdrew the whip⁉️⁉️⁉️

        SH you’re WICKED drivel. Were you meaningless drivel, u might be benign. But you are not. U r no fool. U know EXACTLY what you are doing. Those who want change should emulate your work-rate. U defend your aim. ONE basic aim. You’re never distracted, unfocused, clinging desperately to a mythical “peace” or “calm” hence the prompt PURGE.

        You’ll fool some SteveH. That’s reality. But i will NEVER be complicity with racist monsters like your Keith. Pull another one🚨🚨🚨

      6. Childish accusations… Says the puerile wee shitehawk that makes all sorts of claims then scarpers when confronted with verifiable facts to the contrary, or even when asked simple questions that would back up your claims – if you designed to answer.

        But you appear to think you’re above answering to any of us.

        We know it’s because you have NO answer to them . If you had, you would’ve done long before now.

        And that’s yet another reason why you’re despised and denigrated wherever you go.

  8. Sorry, we have NO opposition we just have a right-wing party acting like cheerleaders for the Tory scum and at best they manage the whipped vote to abstain that will show em’! All the while they desperately try and get rid of anything left-wing and especially anything socialist…

    They are now more of a cult of new Labour 2.0 and any dissent your be attacked and vilified. All the while the membership is ignored and now the rule book only applies to socialists, there is nothing left here to vote for and especially support any longer.

    I am tired by people being fooled to stay and fight we have been told this since Blair, we had a chance and flushed it with this big tent BS and scared to defend endless baseless vile attacks. Well, this is the result and no I will not waste another 20 years hoping for change while having to be silent because raise your voice and your be expelled Good!!!

    Who wants to associate with these cultists I will not appease or stay silent..

      1. And off message again,but this is important because if the Labour party vote with the torys on the internal market part of the Tory brexit bill then we consign the majority of the people of the Ocuppied part of Ireland to a return to militarization under British rule and a direct result of the trampling of the good Friday agreement under international law.Youve got a senile corrupt politician of Catholic Irish descent taking office in the white house,whos previous support through Hibernian society led to rattling oil drums coming off the ferries in Larne and Dublin and whos hatred for British rule in Ireland surpasses even the kennedy family in the U SA..The brits and the paramilitary groups fought the Provisional IRA,not the real IRA,but my sounding on friends in Ireland would be that a vote with the Tory brexit will hand power to the elbow of the “Hard men” to exploit the final day of reckoning with Britains oldest colony and the longest fight for freedom from British rule in Ireland…Don’t forget that the majority in the North voted to remain in Europe and by their very nature will automatically reject the militarization of the false border of Ireland…times running out and so is the Labour party.

      2. Joseph – I would have thought the most likely outcome will be a referendum and a united island of Ireland.

  9. After how many killed SH,…ITS a serious subject and if you had seen the Terror on the streets when the dustbin lids are banging to alert another armoured personal carrier to pick up young men on the streets and whisk them away for intergation,or water boarding.We cannot and we will not suffer again.Many young men were interned at just sixteen years old,no trial no justice and no way to live.a empty pointless life.Labour’s work in N Ireland is a legacy to be proud of and your knight will prop up the torys to trample the good Friday agreement in helping the Conservative and unionist party ride roughshod over the democratic rights of the Catholic population.and the rest of the island of Ireland.

    1. Joseph – I am all too well aware of what went on in NI during the 70s and having revisited Ireland in recent years my impression is that Ireland both north and south are in a completely different place than they were back in those days. There is no need for any violence the NI agreement already makes provision for a referendum on reunification.

      1. Your comment only shows how little you understand about Northern Irish politics, SteveH.

        One of my best mates served in the Paras in NI at the height of the Troubles and married a Catholic lass from the Falls Road, who I’ve now known for the past 40-odd years. Moreover, I married a Protestant lady from just outside Belfast some 30-odd years ago. From these people alone, I gained a very good insight into the mindset of both Republican and Loyalist hard-liners — and they haven’t gone away by any stretch of the imagination as younger ones have come up through the ranks since then.

        Suggesting that a referendum on unification will prevent violence kicking off again is almost tantamount to saying that only Republicans were responsible for the Troubles, and that all will be well if their wishes are granted.

        How do you think hard-line Loyalists will react if Westminster’s sovereignty is transferred to Dublin? If you think they’re just going to roll over without a murmur then you’re being positively naive.

        Do those in the Shankhill, for instance, still consider themselves British? Yes.

        Do hard-line Republicans in the neighbouring Falls Road area, still want the British out of Ireland? Yes.

        This short documentary from TRTWorld in 2018 shines a revealing light on the present situation.

        Ireland’s Brexit Trouble | Crossing The Line

      2. PW – You may well be right, but all I’ve recounted above is what I experienced personally. Your own experience obviously differs from mine.

      3. Well, yes SteveH, our ‘experiences’ are different, that much is patently obvious. Yet it makes me wonder what exactly gave you such an ‘impression’ that all is so ‘completely different’.

        While there is undoubtedly a semblance of peace in NI nowadays and, regardless of my own ‘experiences’, the video clearly demonstrates that all is not as it seems. There is still much animosity on both sides, and it’s no longer sectarian so much as national identity — British v Irish. Even power sharing in the Assembly has been fraught with disagreement — since February 2000 it has been suspended 5 times, the latest lasting 3 years from January 2017 until January 2020. If that is not an indication of continuing tensions, then I don’t know what is.

        What I learnt from the horses mouths, as it were, was that the information put out for public consumption over here in England during the Troubles was exactly that — for public consumption. The reality of what was going on, as is so often the case, was very different — we didn’t get to hear even half of what was happening.

        From the press reports you would have drawn no other conclusion than that it was all down to the Provos and nothing to do with Loyalist paramilitaries, or even the British army. It wasn’t until much later, when the peace process began, that a more rounded view became unavoidable, and even then much was still kept hidden.

        As I said before, if you think that a referendum on reunification is somehow going to resolve these tensions without the ‘need for violence’ as you put it, then you really don’t understand the mindset of many Irish people.

        Having spent half a lifetime working with Irish people from both sides, as well as from north and south, while they can be the most wonderful people to work and socialise with, they can also be some of the most stubborn people I’ve ever met, bar none. That’s not to say there is no compromise to be had, after all several of my last wife’s Protestant family are intermarried with Catholics without any issues at all but that doesn’t hold for all Irish people, whether north or south.

        I truly hope that it doesn’t come to renewed violence but it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if tensions do escalate to that point should the consequences of the Tories (mis)handling of Brexit lead to the worst case scenarios that many have predicted.

        We can only hope that if they do then the British army keeps out and a UN peace-keeping force goes in instead, which is something my late mate’s wife suggested would have been a better solution, had one been available during the Troubles. — but then, as I remarked, they would never have met each other!

    2. Joseph, you make very good points about Northern Ireland. If we include the affects Brexit will have on Scotland, they illustrate profoundly why the gung-ho Brexiters on the right and on the left either had no idea or just were not concerned about the divisions and hardships Brexit would cause. Without Brexit, none of this would have even been an issue and the £billions wasted on Brexit so far, could have been avoided.

      We are now out on a limb with Brexit and the Brexstremists are beavering away with their saw trying to send us plunging.

  10. There is a lot of anger being expressed on Skwawkbox at the moment, particularly and understandably against Keir Starmer. I suspect most of us, including SteveH, recognise that Starmer is on the right, an establishment lacky, a ladder climber and an opportunist lacking in principles and integrity. We can criticise him for all those things but it’s non-productive to criticise him for being a Remainer or wanting a confirmatory Brexit vote when this was the majority position in the Labour Party and maybe in the country.

    I accept that it may have not have been welcomed in some of the seats in the poorest areas where Farage and Cummings deliberately concentrated their anti-EU propaganda and convinced a majority to vote for Brexit by blaming immigrants from the EU instead of right wing governments, for deprivation in those areas. However, it was still logical and democratic to give the whole electorate a chance to have a vote on any EU deal which the Tories negotiated.

    There were many on the left who for their own reasons did not want this ‘second’ vote because they held to what they told us would have been Tony Benn’s view on the EU. They may or may not have been right and many agreed with them but lots of others, because politics and political intrigue is not at the top of their list of concerns, just went along with that view.

    We will soon see and feel the disastrous results of the Brexit decision and many will conclude that Starmer was correct in opposing it. This, if anything, is what will take Labour back to power with all the unfortunate consequences which result from having a right wing, non-Socialist Labour government in power.

  11. SteveH06/12/2020 AT 3:24 PM
    BoxOfSkwawk – You’re the one claiming to know stuff, not me.

    We’re all of us only too aware you know the sum total of fook-all, soft lad.

    But claiming stammer’s more popular than Corbyn is akin to comical Ali denying the enemy had reached anywhere near him right at the moment when the tanks were rolling into shot behind him…Except you actually believe it 😆

    I wonder how many CLPs would’ve voted no confidence in Corbyn had this been one year ago?

    How many do YOU reckon, wee fella? Six zillion squintillion CLPs voting no confidence in him?

    1. Was meant to read:

      I wonder how many CLPs would’ve voted no confidence in Corbyn had this been one year ago and he’d autocratically suspended stammer for his second referendum shithousery?

    2. Toffee – Yes Corbyn was popular initially but that popularity obviously waned as his lack of leadership skills became apparent.

      1. @SteveH: JC’s popularity ceased to grow at the same rate once Blue Labour & their MSM started working their sustained $hit.

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