Jon Lansman and his allies in London are believed to have put together a slate of candidates for the imminent elections to Momentum’s national coordinating group (NCG) elections. The slate will be launched under the title of ‘Momentum Renewal’.
A series of closed meetings has taken place over the last couple of weeks to decide the slate and the SKWAWKBOX understands that a deal has been struck in which Lansman himself will not stand on the slate. This is to allow it to present itself as a ‘new start’ for Momentum and to distance itself from Lansman’s tenure as Chair, which has become increasingly unpopular on the left. However, it appears that he and his supporters are the main driving force behind the move.
Quid pro quo
The SKWAWKBOX also understands that Lansman has agreed to step aside from the slate and give up his position in Momentum in return for a guaranteed position on the left slate for the upcoming Labour NEC elections – a move which has caused anger among some on the left who blame him for the divided slate in the spring’s NEC elections.
Lansman and his supporters are also said to be rushing to secure high profile support from MPs, as they are worried about the initial success of the ‘Forward Momentum’ campaign, backed by a number of left figures and groups including John McDonnell and the Fire Brigades Union, and about its growing support among the grassroots.
Jon Lansman has previously told the SKWAWKBOX that he does not wish to be contacted for comment. The code of standards of regulator IMPRESS says that publications must:
Comply immediately with any reasonable request to desist from contacting, following or photographing a person.
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Lansman must NEVER be allowed on the NEC. NEVER⚠️⚠️⚠️
We need a Lansman-free NEC and a Lansman-free Momentum.
He claims he’s handing over the leadership to a new generation – somebody mentioned the database – presumably he must allow them access to at least the basic database even if he retains ownership of his company.
I’ve no idea whether his database contains more than just names and contact details, but even if it does I don’t see much difficulty in it being rebuilt by the members.
What is all this fragmenting into 3/4/5/ different groups? Why couldn’t RM just apply on FM’s hustings? Why have they set up a different group?
These people are supposed to be politically experienced. The way they’re going on, we’ll all have gone. What is the difference between RM and FM beyond the fact the RM people are already in power?
You are supposed to present a clear view not play ruddy political positions. Look for unity not difference. I don’t give a toss, to be frank, who’s an officer, apart from liking our local candidate. I’m not spending more of my life reading almost identical statements from a load of folk who want to be important.
What about the membership and the work you promised us, organising in the community? Can you do that, any of you politicians? Can you? Then do it. Involve us.
That doesn’t mean have a heated discussion and set up your own group in suspicion of people whose politics differ from yours by half a millimetre. It means go out to the estates, and DO SOMETHING. That’s why we joined.
WTAF.
The Forward Momentum slate of candidates for the upcoming internal Momentum national coordinating group (NCG) elections has been published.
London:
Deborah Hermanns
Sonali Bhattacharyya
Ana Oppenheim
Mick Moore
Midlands and East:
Andrew Scattergood
Solma Ahmed
Mish Rahman
Abbie Clark
North West and Wales:
Alan Gibbons
Tracey Hilton
Harriet Protheroe Soltani
Charlie Bollaan
North East, Yorkshire & Humberside, Scotland, Northern Ireland and International:
Callum Bell
Liz Smith
Gaya Sriskanthan
Rory MacLean
South East and South West:
Phil Clarke
Jennifer Forbes
Darran McLaughlin
Shona Jemphrey
Public office holders:
Mayor Jamie Driscoll
Nadia Whittome MP
Cllr Christine Howard
Cllr Barrie Margetts
How can Lansman be trusted? I don’t think he can be.
Part of the problem with Jon Lansman is that he must always be right, anyone who disagrees with him even mildly is in the wrong and has to be put in their place. As a result he has made a lot of enemies along the way and of course being so sure of himself, he has made many mistakes.
He is foolish if he thinks the support of MPs will help him get on the NEC – MPs only have one vote the same as everybody else. The membership will judge him on his past behaviour and vote accordingly.
If actually it will help us to establish which MPs we shouldn’t trust.
Maria, for starters, those i’v named today and the past. Easy reliable methods include check those who not only voted for Tony Blair’s illegal invasion of Iraq, voted against the inquiries at anytime. Those who voted for austerity INCLUDING abstentions.
Their associates prove what they love, eg ALL the close chums of Coyle – Arseworthless, Arsetair Campbellend & Cassandra, Hodge, Streeting J & T Phillips, Nandy. I need to look through my records to see who else came here to plot with Coyle… oh Harriet Harman and Sadiq Khan of course. Multitasking and need to dash, but we can all make our lists of others so the rest of us can be alert.
Same re Council and NEC. We cannot moan about the MSM etc and the traitorous within, when not a stroke was made to bring them to book. I can feel for those deeply disappointed. I am disappointed too. But i quickly discovered in my CLP a culture of appeasement, a dispiriting repetition of errors and a preparation to settle for crumbs. Every attempt to even express disapproval, was met with GREAT resistance. And even the efforts that saw some light, were frustrated at Regional level and the NEC.
Such failings are NOT inevitable. My hypothesis to date is that some feel good things happen by some magical fairy work. Pay subs and some how great things happen. If they did not happen then by some mysterious fairy magic, it will happen elsewhere in some “NEW” group or party. I can only assume people have good intentions. Those have never been enough.
We have to fight for our party. Thats my view. I have no explanation for those who take time to say give up, don’t try etc. It is a puzzle, if i assume sincerity. Surely though, that serves the Tory vermin rather than us. I remain puzzled, but surely the effort to establish Skwawkbox.org and endure the hurdles by the agents of the same old same old, is a great effort. So QUESTION: what exactly is the positive aim of those who take time and energy to discourage us❓❓❓ What’s their point❓❓❓ It seems odd to do for free, that for which the same old same old pay millions.🌹🌹🌹
Arseworthless, Arsetair Campbellend
How old are you signpost?
Anyway, I see you’re just repeating much of what you said in the comments section of the previous article skwawkbox posted. Repetition, repetition, repetition. All day long, week after week after week, month after month.
And pray, do tell, how can the MSM be brought to book? But signpost would have you believe that Jeremy could have done something about all the lies and falsehoods and demonisation when he knows damn well that there was nothing whatsoever he could have done, just as there was nothing Ken could have done about all the lies and smears when he was leader of the GLC, or that Neil Kinnock could have done when HE was leader of the LP, OR Harold Wilson for that matter when he was PM.
Oh, and yet AGAIN he’s off about his CLP! Do NOT believe a word of it, because signpost is a lying little shill and it is ALL fabrication I can assure you, and I very much doubt that he is even a member of the LP, let alone attends meetings. Funny, isn’t it, how signpost has NEVER said anything positive about his alleged CLP, and needless to say, he’s never-EVER gonna tell us which CLP he allegedly attends. And for the obvious reason!
Any that belong to the Co-op party and 90% of the PLP
Easy. Turn off the volume and judge them on action.
Background is also important. You cannot just accept what you are told. Take Clive Lewis. Described as ex military. Reality is a commission in the TA. MOD site is vague on qualifications required… Regardless of what Lewis stands for, it’s shady to describe as anything other than a part time weekend warrior (They were known as sTAbs back in my day, ‘stupid TA bastards’).
An even better example is Rory Stewart. Whilst his politics has zero appeal, his background is interesting. If Tory isn’t a spook, I’ll eat my hat. Temporary commission into the Army. Who gets that perk? His family are from intelligence circles.
Right now, I’d assume the worst of everyone sadly. If they aren’t the type to stab you in the front like Phillips et al, they are the type to fail you ala McDonald. If they are decent, their actions will speak louder than any noise around them or from them.
There are even people in RM who have no attachment to democracy. Why they’re setting up I have no idea unless they think ordinary members shouldn’t be involved or allowed to stand! Are RM defending their current seats or something? And if so, why? You people better all get it together or everyone will have gone.
>>The membership will judge him on his past behaviour and vote accordingly…
Oh is that the same membership that voted the current useless idiot in charge? Because we all know they can’t be convinced to do something stupid again!
Isn’t Lansman going to be busy running Lloyd Russell-Moles office and possibly trying to take control of the Socialist Campaign Group
I hope that RB knows what he (Lansman) is like. For someone to treat political office like a tradable commodity just goes to show that he is not trustworthy because he does not seem able to comprehend the responsibility that comes with it. He’d turn on his best mate if that is of advantage to him. On second thought he has already done that!
Backofbeyond O would be interested in what you know about Lansman and Russell moyle who I campaigned for ,but like most of the PLP quickly assimilated and went Stum I didnt realise the connection?
17:19hrs Talkradio č John Nicholson entertaining bum fluff … dirty bum fluff … skid marked Rentall … just the way AH may love it. The skid marked entertained Rentall dropped and dripped that the right wing MSM products dripped effluent they and Rentall 1% loved. Theirs and his effluent is Dire Starmer’s peddling the last refuge of scoundrels.
1% Retall, claimed that the rightwing MSM’s praise of SIR Dire Starmer, is PROOF that they are fair. Worth repeating. John Renttool just claimed that Righwing MSM praising dull dull dull Dire Stoma is PROOF that the MSM is fair. I kid you not. Only one AH will agree with Rentall… the biographer of George Bush’s Middle East Peace Envoy.
Interestingly, in 2018, it was a GREAT surprise to hear said same all tool Rentoul WMD’s biographer, on I think same station, program and host, that Tony Bliar was desperate to return to the political arena here. WMD calculates that it could return to UK political life as it did not want to face facts. Fact is, it is tainted forever because of its Iraq invasion. That was the essence of Rentoul’s words then. An invasion aided and abetted by the same right wing MSM. May as well prepare for more invasions if Dire Stoma given his turn of directing Torydom.
Rentoul said words to the effect that Iraq was Tony Blair’s legacy and its failure to grasp that burning fact, was due to the creature’s great VANITY. On hearing that view, from of all people, someone who knows the creature intimately, I thought WOW‼️‼️‼️ Now THAT’s a turn up for the books!!!
How curious that Rentaul had good sense then, yet all sense deserted him at 17:17 hrs today? Then again, was it good sense which deserted Rentoul today, OR was it integrity that deserted him, OR did he show integrity was never his strong point ? nor any point ? or all three ? ? ?
signpostnotwindchimes 17/05/2020 at 6:15 pm
I think you may have had some important points to impart in your above comment but unfortunately the message got lost amongst all the hyperbole and bad language. Could you perhaps give it another try but this time with just the bare facts of the issues you wish to share.😀
Out of the lime light into the shadows, a deception to obscure he remains the major influence on Momentum. Does he still own it?
i’m with \John McDonnell
John McDonnell is one of the “work around”ers. When asked, for advice re Coyle, McD’s offered – “work around Coyle”. Yes… that worked well didn’t it❓ That was after his odd decision to give an interview to Arsetair Campbellend in GQ. Before all that, despite my initially having a good impression of him 2018 and 2019 supplied repeated examples of difficult to understand McD public utterances incl the failure to question AS allegations.
McD whine on the radio “WE DID EVERYTHING THEY ASKED”. The whine seemed genuine. Never the less, it underlines the folly that “THEY” could be appeased. QUESTION: Have “THEY” been appeased❓ What exactly did we get in return for FOUR+ years of uncalled for appeasments❓❓ And to whom did McD’s “THEY” refer❓❓❓
When was that now signpost (that John said “We did everything they asked”), and how many times have you repeated it on skwawkbox? Funny how it’s all negative stuff you come up with, and which you repeat over and over again, and I think it’s glaringly obvious – and has been for many, many months – what your agenda is. Funny how you never have anything positive to say about him, like the following, for example:
McDonnell tells Starmer to suspend former staff following leaked antisemitism report
https://news.sky.com/story/john-mcdonnell-labour-staff-should-be-sacked-if-leaked-antisemitism-dossier-is-accurate-11974342
No, well you wouldn’t, would you, cos THAT doesn’t fit with your agenda does it!
PS And WHO asked John for advice re Coyle and when? The reason I ask is because you make so much stuff up.
Allan Howard at 2:50 am – I have read the Sky News article that you’ve linked to but the headline appears to be inaccurate. (nb::the lack of quotes) I can’t see any direct quote where JM actually asks Starmer to suspend members. It would be a little surprising if he did because McDonnell must know full well, that despite popular misconception, the Leader of the Labour Party doesn’t have the authority to suspend, sack or expel either NEC employees or members of the party.
The leader obviously has the authority to sack his own appointees (eg ministers) and I think he may also be able to remove the whip but that’s about as far as his authority extends.
As far as the employees are concerned then that is obviously an HR issue and whether we like it or not proper HR procedures will have to be followed otherwise it could turn out to be very expensive. As for any NEC members who have been implicated then that responsibility would lay with the NEC and/or the union that appointed them to their posts.
Allan Howard…..you are the liar,not windchimes.You are beyond belief with your arrogant smears and attacks.Try the Torys for a change and when do I get an apology for your lies and innuendo about my Councillor days?and no one would ever give you any personal information unless they couldnt care less and live in a jungle like me.You really are a vile poster who concentrating on attacking comrades instead of attacking the real enemy the conservative and unionist party and the establishment propaganda trolls.of the Labour party.Get some help comrade its still free of charge for the NHS for now
EG Like the stuff you made up about ‘hostile presenters’ saying they couldn’t understand why Jeremy Corbyn hasn’t sued any of the people who have called him an anti-semite, which implies of course that THEY – the ‘hostile presenters’ – believe that the claims of A/S against him are fraudulent. ‘Hostile presenters’ may very well know that the claims are fraudulent, but they are hardly going to concede as much, albeit indirectly. When I initially asked you who these presenters were, you responded that you would let me know, but despite ‘reminding’ you on a number of occasions in the following weeks, you never did. So given that it was MORE than one presenter, was it TWO ‘hostile presenters’ on the same program, or ‘hostile presenters’ on two or more different programs at different times, which YOU just happened to be listening to on the radio, what with you not having a TV?
Needless to say, signpost will not be responding to my questions, and for the obvious reason! Because he was lying! And the ‘idea’ behind inventing such a story was to have readers of skwawkbox think to themselves that EVEN hostile presenters can’t understand why he – Jeremy – hasn’t done so, and if THEY think that, then why hasn’t he. And signpost’s ‘goal’ is to have readers conclude that he hasn’t done so because he is too weak OR too nice! Or BOTH!
Oh, I just this minute see that Councilor Okeefe is up and about defending his chum signpost, and this is the guy that played the infantile little game of refusing to tell me where he was a councillor each and every time I asked. The FIRST time I asked him he waffled off some longish incoherent garbage in response. And just to be clear, all I said was – ie all I asked him was: ‘Where were you a councillor, as a friend of mine thinks he recognises the name’. THAT was about eight or nine months ago, and in the following few months I asked him several more times, but he didn’t respond.
Now there are TWO possibilities for him not responding: 1. That he didn’t see the posts as such; 2. He was playing an infantile little game where after I’d asked him five or six times, he would then SUDDENLY divulge where he was a councillor so as to try and make it look to readers of skwawkbox that I was wrong about him NOT being a councillor. But I NEVER at any point said that I thought he was lying, and was careful not to, but the day BEFORE he revealed WHERE he was a councillor – and in response to a poster who very, very rarely posts comments on skwawkbox – and who’d said that HE couldn’t understand why HE – Joseph Okeefe – doesn’t just say so, I said something along the lines of ‘Well, if he IS lying……’. The poster in question, having said that they couldn’t understand why he – Joseph – doesn’t just say so, then went on to say that HE had previously been a councillor and WHERE, and that he didn’t see the problem with just saying where you were a councillor if you were.
And the reason Mr Okeefe didn’t respond is because by deliberately NOT responding, he wanted for me to increasingly suspect that he WASN’T ever a councillor and that THAT is why he’s avoiding answering. Now I ask you, WHO does something like THAT!.
As for “attacking the real enemy”, Joseph of course is defending the enemy within, signpost, who pretends he’s one of us – as does Joseph himself – whilst trashing Jeremy and the left and his alleged CLP on a daily basis (although he’s never-ever said which CLP it is of course!). And as I say, WHO on this earth would play such a devious infantile little game of not just telling you where they were a councillor the first time you asked?!
So WHY didn’t you just tell me where you were a councillor the first time I inquired Jo?
NB I would look for the response Councillor Okeefe gave me the first time I asked him (where he was a councillor) and post it here, but I only have an approximate idea of when it was, and under Skwawkbox’s new format there is no ‘calendar’ of past articles any more anyway, as there used to be on the left-hand side near the top of the page, directly under the list of ‘Recent Articles’. But I’ll definitely dig it out at some point! Funnily enough though, it was very much in the signpost psycho-babble vein!! Oh, and Jo obviously completely agrees with all signpost’s character assassination of Jeremy and the left and his (alleged) CLP during the past eight months or so since he first started posting on here! Is that right Jo? And I wonder why it is that signpost won’t tell me who these ‘hostile presenters’ were Jo. Couldn’t be because your chum was lying through his teeth!
Needless to say, my 4.52am post was meant to appear directly under my 2.50am post, and was addressed to signpost, and an example of his deceit and mendacity and duplicity.
Whatever Steve, but I have no doubt that HE – like just about everyone on the left – believed that many of the people ‘outed’ in the leaked report should have been suspended immediately.
Allan Howard
John McDonnell called Anti Semitism wrong and he called Brexit wrong
If all your saying is as far as your concerned he is is one of the good guys going forward then at least accept some of us are sceptical
He’s on the fucking naughty step for now
@Allan Howard
McD is as.much use as a cock flavoured lollipop.
Not only did he pander to a group of roughly 500,000 people (what about the other 67 million McDonald?), He whined about the obvious shafting afterwards…
Then there’s his helping drag Labour to remain.
McDonald, like Corbyn have proven they are not the men for the day, or indeed anything much else.
What’s positive about your link? Handwringer tells handwringer to do something…We both know nothing will happen, so its panto
Doug,I am not saying that John McDonnell is perfect by any means, but what I AM saying is that signpost practically ALWAYS posts negative stuff about Jeremy and the left AND he invents things so as to make the left look bad in the eyes of readers of skwawkbox. How could he possibly know, for example, as he claimed in a post in the thread before this one, that Khan and Coyle were asking people on the doorstep during the election campaign if they disagreed with ‘Corbyn’…….. He couldn’t of course, but he then goes on to denigrate left-wing canvassers,
As for John McDonnell calling Brexit wrong, yes, but on the other hand, the Remainers in the party no doubt thought the opposite. And as for A/S, it’s difficult to decipher what he ACTUALLY thought/thinks, but he no doubt knew that to claim it was a smear campaign, or that it had all been grossly exaggerated, was to invite the saboteurs to accuse him of being a conspiracy theorist or being in denial and, as such, being part of the problem. And, as such, he had no other option than to say – to the public via the media – that the problem exists and that he and Jeremy and the LP are doing everything they can to deal with it and eradicate it from the party.
Well if he stands for the NEC he won’t get my vote.
Mine neither!
“I have decided not to contest the forthcoming elections within Momentum and instead will hand over to a new leadership.”
Lansman’s tweet tonight.
I’ve just sent him the following reply.
Except you don’t really mean that, do you, it’s yet another smoke and mirrors stratagem. Perhaps you should take your own advice more seriously?
“A period of silence from……is overdue, especially on antisemitism racism & Zionism. It’s time he left politics altogether.”
(Just in case it’s not absolutely clear, in the latter 2017 tweet, Lansman was referring to Ken Livingstone).
The writing has always been on the wall @ Momentum & still many members of the Labour Party embrace him. A powerful man with powerful friends who control & keep power to themselves. This is Starmer’s New New Labour Party in action……I wonder how quickly they will demand a parliamentary enquiry into Care Home deaths & lack of support & PPE for Care Home & Home Care workers in the private sector?
Lansman and the left dont mix, he is a poisonous fucker and removing him from any position of influence will be a giant leap forward for party, members and supporters of manifesto and JC legacy
The real reason a lot of so-called “leftists” don’t like Lansman isn’t because of his (real) shortcomings and the (real) lack of democracy within Momentum: it’s because he;’s called out antisemitism and taken the denialists like JVL.
Jim on his one track hobby horse again, anti-semitism. Your left wing credentials look wanting I’m afraid to say!
Jim Denham. ..You are part of the Labour party and its destruction,you peddle lies that destroyed Corbyn and nearly destroyed the socialist revival.AS has never been a problem like is spun.inside the !most Anti racist party in europe.You are little more than a paid troll with a wicked destructive agenda “The death of the democratic socialist labour party”
JVL denialists !!!! , ROFLMAO you need to stop smoking that waky baccy its fried your single brain cell mate
Jim, any more of your libellous bollocks against JVl or anyone else and you’ll be blocked
I’ll take no lectures on “libellous bollox” from the charlatan and small businessman Walker.
I fundamentally disagree with what Jim Denham says, but would fight to the death for his right to say it….to paraphrase Voltaire. When different opinion is described as libel, that’s a form of censorship that is frightening.
Steve Richards, society quite rightly doesn’t allow Holocaust deniers free speech.
Should the Tories, the MSM and the BoD be allowed to tell as many lies as they can invent about Corbyn, Labour and antisemitism to subvert democracy and steal elections?
Should lies about Brexit be defended? About Coronavirus deaths? About PPE & testing numbers? About austerity being over? About who caused the 2008 crash?
That’s enough . block the twat
Skwaky, Steve, David
We all support Free Speech, Free Press and Free Markets
Where can we find them, all comes down to regulation, there are always going to be limits, just depends on who you trust to set limits
At moment it’s a Free for all
Anti Semitism scam if you dont mind
Vexatious claims of anti semitism are hate crimes and should be prosecuted
Safest country in Europe for the Jewish community thanks to JC and Labour party
Safest country in Europe for the Jewish community.
Is that because we’re the only ones in Europe to have Shomrim?
It does baffle me how such a tiny group of people (less than 0.5% of UK population) get such perks whilst the rest of us would be punished. Can you imagine how long Black fellas would last with an idea like that?
Things that make you go hmm…
Don’t talk sh!te, bell end.
Yep, unless there have been dramatic developments that none of us have been made aware of Lansman does still own Momentum as a company, and its database, personally. Momentum , under its sole owner, Lansman , has been a (negative) exemplar of just the kind of small claque, self-serving, manoeuvring , that has plagued all factions of the Left for generations, and in the Labour Left’s case, guaranteed that every time the Left has seemed to be really getting somewhere, the self-serving interests of the leading claques, particularly its egomaniac ‘Leaders’, like Lansman, and its profound endemic political cowardice, leads to defeat by a corrupt, careerist, but very focussed and determined, Labour Right. This was as true in the late 1950’s/early 60’s (CND) as it was in the 1980’s (Bennism) ,as it was so recently with the tiny, utterly cowardly, timid, Corbyn claque – which by 2019 had retreated from every key political position they had held for personally for decades, in order ,fruitlessly, to try to win over the irreconcilable Right .
Sadly, Momentum is, and has been from its inception under sole Lansman control (even before his coup) , rotten from top to bottom, full of ex public school careerists at head office, always really just a vehicle for sundry insider claque careerists to get on personally by becoming councillors or MPs. And the laughable idea that the now surely proven pseudo ‘marxist’ bullshitter, John McDonnell, the man who stabbed Jeremy in the back by supporting the electorally suicidal Remain and 2nd Ref policy that Labour adopted just before the 2019 Election, and even (with Diane Abbott) going on that huge People’s Vote demo organised by the Labour Right and their allies, and grovelled to Alistair Campbell in THAT ghastly interview, has anything to offer the Left , defies belief .
Sadly even the supposedly more radical, reforming ‘Forward Momentum’ supporters are also just a very similar bunch of middle class EU-loving, pro unlimited freedom of movement , old Lefties, saturated with middle class identity politics, and with exactly the same underlying crap Left Liberal, not genuinely socialist, politics as the crap reformist, accommodate to the (mythical) ‘soft’ Labour PLP Left, politics that guides the Lansman faction which has always totally controlled Momentum. None of the politically bankrupt factions vying for control of the fast-declining Momentum hulk, have anything to offer the vast numbers of working class ex-voters and supporters we lost over the last four years of disastrous tactical and strategic and political manoeuvring by the entire (middle class) Labour ‘Corbynista’ Left (Liberals). The Labour Party is now a dead political hulk, doomed to continue down the path to political oblivion of the rest of European social democracy. Only the seriously politically deluded and the usual middle class opportunists seeking to build a power base FOR THEMSELVES within Labour on a ‘Left ticket’ are really interested in wasting yet more years and decades in the fruitless struggle to ‘turn Labour Left’. Give it up, Skwawkie, Labour is fucked as a possible vehicle for Left advance. Those who haven’t grasped that fact after the utter failure of four painful years of ‘Corbynist’ compromise, cowardice and retreat in the face of endless PLP Right sabotage, need a serious political re-boot – with some socialist politics added , and some key labour movement history lessons learnt, where a moralistic, self-obsessed middle class Left Liberalism has previously held total sway .
John – In view of what you’ve written above will you be resigning your membership of the Labour Party and returning to Left ‘Unity’.
What amuses me about the supposedly “left” Brexiteers like John Penney, banging on about pro-EU “liberals”, is their utter inability to grasp that class is based upon people’s relationship to the means of production, not whether they work (or used to work) in metal-bashing industries. The clear majority of people who sell their labour power, voted to remain (according to the Ashworth poll that Brexiteers usually like to quote). Penny’s alliance of lumpens, middle class reactionaries, little Englanders, aging Stalinists and out-and-out racists was never a basis for anything progressive. And please stop bleating on about “middle class liberals” when you clearly have no grasp of how scientific socialists judge class.
Jim Denham, yet another tiresome middle class Left Liberal, who thinks he’s a solid proletarian ‘Marxist’ ! A tragic delusion shared by the entirely middle class , professional class, radical ‘Left’ – who are now so totally divorced from the entire poorer, manual, unskilled and semiskilled , non university-educated, working class people who we lost in our millions in 2019 through our arrogant adoption of the electorally suicidal Remain and 2nd Referendum policy , and the entirely non-socialist but moralistic Left Liberal support for unlimited labour supply/freedom of movement. Yes , Jim, it’s true both the privileged middle classes , like you, who compose the entire radical Far Left, and most of the Labour Party activist membership are indeed ‘proletarians’ in a formal , purely objective (rather than a subjective, self-aware sense) Marxist sense . But unfortunately in the UK economy of today this professional middle class cohort , like you) of this broader proletariat has interests and related privileges which are quite distinct and at odds with the bulk of the poorer, semi skilled and unskilled working class. For the middle classes the entirely neoliberal enforcement machine of the EU just means easy travel opportunities and the availability of free health care if injured on the ski slopes, and good crony-provided job opportunities in the vast EU bureaucracy. And unlimited labour supply/Freedom of Movement just means cheap Uber taxis, cheap delivery drivers, and generally low cost services from an unlimited pool of cheap labour – not endangering those middle class jobs (yet anyway). But for the poorer working class mass it means vast competition for their jobs, leading to the zero hour gig economy, no bargaining power, and low wages.
But you go on fantasising that because you are a (salaried) ‘wage worker’, you share exactly the same class interests as a poorer, non professional, precariat worker in a Sports Direct, or Amazon, warehouse, or McDonalds, just because you are , nominally, ‘not a capitalist’. Sadly the entirely middle class Left is a self-absorbed, over-privileged, identity politics obsessed tiny bubble of very few people of no political significance in today’s financialised , service economy, back-office of global capitalism UK economy. The working class as a mass force has entirely lost interest in your self-obsessed fantasies, and faux ‘radicalism’, and has either now lent their voters to THE TORIES in our heartlands (because of Brexit) , or given up on politics entirely, or may well follow on the path of so many former Left working class voters in Europe – by voting for Far Right populism.
So spare me your schoolboy level pseudo Marxism. Denham. Your understanding of Marxism, and the current balance of class forces in the UK , and everywhere else, including the neoliberal EU, is laughably inadequate.
jpenney -Having read your 2 comments above I doubt that many will be surprised that you’ve waisted 3 decades pissing about in the wilderness desperately searching for a home for your ideology and achieved sweet bugger all.
An ideology that that seems to be rather weird attempt to combine the Tooting Popular Front with Zionism.
Eloquent.
My comment Eloquent is intended for Jim Denham’s at 8:52 pm comment above.
Are you RH in disguise?
Poor old dim jenham.
Toys lashed out the pram because us ‘proles’ didn’t vote the way he wanted us to.
So come along, Mr ‘Scientific socialist’ (Dafuq?), give us all the ‘dicky haywood’ pub-bore lecture on how us ‘lumpens, middle class reactionaries, little Englanders, aging Stalinists and out-and-out racists’ should judge class.
Amuse us…
SteveH16/05/2020 AT 10:12 PM
My comment Eloquent is intended for Jim Denham’s at 8:52 pm comment above.
Oh, look – MORE ‘hero worship’ … Remember THAT one, steve? You can have it back AGAIN 🙂 Best not let your beloved knight find out you’re brown-nosing someone else as detached from left-wing politics as he.
I know that I should not be feeding trolls but…
If Lansman is concerned about anti-semitism why does he devote so much of his energy to defending the fascist zionist state- which is the epicentre of international antisemitism and supported by every neo-fascist movement in the western world as well as the RSS in India?
There is historically a minor current of anti-semitism in the Labour Party but it has never been weaker than it has been in the past five years, during which the Party was led by a convinced philosemite and a faction which abhores racism in all its forms, including the virulent anti Arab and anti Islamic behaviour hard wired into the state of Israel.
Solidarity with courageous comrades in JVL, worthy inheritors of the mantle of those who rose up in the Warsaw ghetto!
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear: a classic example of the problem we have.
And what problem is that Jim? Have you read the leaked report by the way? THAT explains fully the ‘problem’ we have – ie saboteurs galore!
Funny, isn’t it, how prior to being elected leader (or entering the leadership contest to be precise), no-one ever mentioned JC and anti-semitism in the same breath, but AFTERWARDS:
In July [2018*], we conducted a ProQuest newspaper database search, which found the following hits for UK press articles mentioning:
‘Jeremy Corbyn’ and ‘antisemitism’ before May 2015 = 18 hits
‘Jeremy Corbyn’ and ‘antisemitism’ after May 2015 = 6,133 hits
None of the 18 mentions before May 2015 included any accusation that Corbyn was antisemitic. And it was not, as some people have claimed, that Corbyn, a leading anti-war MP, was unknown or unworthy of attention. ProQuest found 3,659 hits for ‘Jeremy Corbyn’ before May 2015.
https://www.medialens.org/2018/charges-without-merit-jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism-norman-finkelstein-and-noam-chomsky/
* Needless to say, there were thousands more between July 2018 (when the medialens article was published) and the GE in December last year. There are plenty of other articles on medialens that will help put you straight Jim, assuming THAT’s possible. Just type >jeremy corbyn< in to their search engine.
The report you’re so keen on (ie re: sabotage” by right wingers) also makes it absolutely clear that antisemitism is a real and serious issue within the party and must *not* be downplayed: I recommend that you actually read the report. And anyone who regards “Holocaust Industry” Finkelstein (or, to a lesser extent, Chomsky) as a good guide to anything concerning antisemitism, needs their head examined.
*jack t enters, stage right*
Oh I see Jim, so the A/S just happened to come into existence AFTER Jeremy was elected leader, did it. There is no more A/S in the LP than there is in society in general, and LESS than there is in the Tory Party. And what do you have to say about Margaret Hodge submitting 200 cases of alleged A/S by members to the LP, which the MSM widely reported, which turned out to involve 111 individuals, only *20* of whom were LP members, which NONE of the MSM reported? Now how could she have possibly concluded that 91 people who WEREN’T Labour Party members WERE Labour Party members. It’s an impossibility of course, but she no doubt knew that the MSM would ‘faithfully’ report the ‘200’ story, and completely ignore the ’20’ story. And as for Ken, he was alluding, in passing, to The Haavara Agreement AND it was Vanessa Feltz who brought up Hitler in the first place, not Ken, and all the vilification and condemnation and outrage was phony and false and confected, and the very fact that much of the MSM were claiming that Ken had said that Hitler was a Zionist tells you ALL you need to know about how mendacious and despicable they all are.
Oh, and it was just an incredibly fortuitous coincidence of course, that of ALL people, John Mann should just happen to be at Labour Party HQ (or wherever it was) with a film crew when Ken turned up there about three hours after doing the interview. Yerse, how unbelievably fortuitous was that! So there’s TWO things that we DO know: 1. That Ken turned up at part HQ (or wherever) at around mid-day (11.45am to be precise) AND that he received an email from whoever at 1.20pm telling him he’d been suspended. But what we DON’T know of course is when whoever made the complaint against him made it.
I’ve just been checking to see WHEN the video footage/story of John Mann verbally attacking Ken first appeared in and on the Main Stream Media AND, as such, if it was being shown in the media PRIOR to Ken learning that he had been suspended, but wasn’t able to find anything with an actual time, but I have a feeling that THAT all broke a bit later on in the afternoon. Anyway, in the process of searching, I learnt for the very first time (from an article in The Spectator) that the verbal assault on Ken by John Mann happened when Ken turned up at Millbank Studios to appear on the Daily Politics program! (The following is from wikipedia: Daily Politics was produced at the BBC’s Millbank studios near the Palace of Westminster’). And John Mann just happened to be invited to appear on the DP as well!
Hmm, so now we know WHERE Ken was exactly and WHY he was there, and the fact that it was the Daily Politics AND Andrew Neil, just reinforces my belief that it was all a set-up by about 10,000%!
Afterthought: And we know of course how these same people screwed and deceived Jeremy (and his advisors) ultra Big Time in respect of the GE campaign interview with Andrew Neil. Including Andrew Neil himself of course!!!
I really wish Lansman would fuck off
Yep me to #
I wonder what Lansman makes of Palestinians need to vow afresh to stop Israeli expansion 72 years after NAKBA?
He knows that his beloved-militaristic Israeli is only persisting in its Palestinian oppression because of the support for the far-right Netanyahu from killerclown Donald Trump.
Lansman will never get a vote from me for anything.
“Behind closed doors” says it all.
Forward Momentum have just held an open vote. On line hustings on addition to candidates’ written and videoed depositions and proportional voting, open to anyone who registered. Voting closed 10pm today (Saturday). 100% democratic, just as it should be.
And thats how Momentum was in its first year it had a open democratic steering committee and it was great , yes Lansman did initiate it but a lot of really good LW activists made it run and gave it impetus . Then Lansman initiated his coup I think around 2016 and since then it has increasingly become moribund and strangled by him and his personality culminating in the recent defeats for the Left .
Glad he has stepped aside , my worry now is “what has he already been offered ” , he obviously wants a NEC seat , and one would be naive to believe he would be the only Zionist on it , he’d just be strengthening those Zionists already there , and he must never sit at that table i.m.o.
Forward with Forward Momentum I say,, and the hope that it will once again become the home for unifying the many disparate left wing groups that can become a force to steer the Labour Party back to sanity , if not then the jumping off point for a new socialist party that will knock the shit out of the centrist crap we now have infesting the Labour Party.
If you can stomach Lansman singing his own praises you can see what he has to say here.
https://labourlist.org/2020/05/jon-lansman-why-ive-decided-not-to-contest-the-momentum-elections/
Poor John his problem is that as people get to know of him they get to know him and in his case that’s a something of a disadvantage.In my opinion he is motivated 100% by pure self-interest and he struggles increasingly to hide the fact.
fao David McNiven,
again we differ. It may be illegal to deny the holocaust in Germany but not in Britain & I believe that every individual has the right to believe what they like & voice their opinion. I have a problem with anybody or any institution telling me what I can think…….even if the earth isn’t flat. I have the same problem with platform deniers & censorship; I would prefer to argue & change minds than to instruct compliance with my opinion in law. My family background is ‘gypsy’ & my family have a different narrative about Auschwitz.
I am uncertain what you define as lies. Being mistaken is not lying but deliberate deceit? When you used to send off your curriculum vitae, was it warts.n all or were you selective with the truth? Living in any form of authoritarian state would (is) challenging……Voltaire was right!
1930s Germany was not an ideal society.
“I believe that every individual has the right to believe what they like & voice their opinion. I have a problem with anybody or any institution telling me what I can think…….even if the earth isn’t flat.”
Cards on the table, I’m with you Steve Richards.
De-platforming is a particular irritant to me, petty little folk who cannot debate on the subject indulge in this tactic or pressures from well connected entities put pressure on host venue to silence info and views they don’t like or causes them embarrassment. The caveat here is of course children and what they are subjected to or have access to. I am also opposed to being spoon fed so called ‘consensus’/Gov approved info and have info as well as my internet searches being limited to match approved narratives.
“Denialists like JVL” was the original point of contention.
“The Lobby” documentaries and Israel’s recall of its agent Shai Masot on being exposed by Al Jazeera conclusively prove that antisemitism is being weaponised by Israel to fight the anti-apartheid movement – the Israeli government and their supporters are the denialists and the de-platformers.
Gypsies were not the only non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust.
Socialists and others were victims too so let’s have a little less “you can’t understand our pain” bollocks from minorities please.
The African Holocaust was a far greater crime of far greater consequence.
The soldiers of many nations died fighting the Nazis. They vastly outnumbered all the Jews, Gypsies, Socialists, disabled, homosexual and other “undesirables” who died in the death camps.
26 million Soviets and everyone else who died screaming in WWII have descendants who mourn them.
Let’s stop claiming special status, demanding special treatment and using what happened in WWII to try to gain special privileges today, shall we?
………not special, DIFFERENT.
Finally someone who expands on the facts. I would have liked to comment in similar vein, but being German some people would construe that on its own as antisemitic. Holocaust happened, and it is illegal, thank God, to display fascist regalia. Oppression comes in many guises, and it is dangerous to grade them as per personal importance or expediency. We have to fight all oppression and discrimination regardless. This should be one lesson everyone should take from the crimes of the century perpetrated by my country of birth.
Why are we even running separate slates when the policies are almost identical? Why did the people round Renewal Momentum decide to set up after FW set up? This seems likes politicking and it’s pointless.
izzyorks – You may find this article by Clive Lewis interesting.
https://labourlist.org/2020/05/want-to-build-a-modern-united-labour-party-start-with-stv-for-the-nec/
Thanks Steve. I like CL and I like STV, both very much; but essentially, I want to go out and start work in the communities. At the moment, I can only see potential for that through the Coop Party; yes, I know, a hang-out for the right; but not if we start going! It can pressurise Councils to get Coops Officers and start setting up jobs for after the virus. That is the work I’m interested in; supporting working-class communities; not debating theoretical positions.
Coops also tend to organise via delegates, thus avoiding the bitter personal stuff and the sycophancy of local politics and ‘representative’ MPs. Call me an anarchist; but what’s the point of a partyette that spends all its time as a talking shop?
We need to seize the time, start jobs, jobs, jobs or let monopoly capital capture everything. We need to take control of our own working lives and the means of production. Build our own houses, transport and jobs and that will be a far better argument for Labour and socialism than any rhetoric. It will also test theory better than any academic debate. Why waste the great practical work done by our local group because some politics graduate in London wants us to engage in an endless round of arguing which people should stand for office?
I wonder if this is also a ploy to divert our attention from what really matters: working in and supporting/ enabling our communities so that they can start changing all that needs to change as you described in more detail.
Sabine – You may find this of interest.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/18/revolution-history-fight-back-coronavirus-policies-vulnerable
For the pro-Zionist: Margaret Hodge – yes her – signed the parliamentary letter demanding action on Israel’s annexation of the West Bank. Are you worried that allies are going over to the other side. The letter calls for sanctions. People were drummed out of the party or reprimanded for less than this. Are the Zionists in the party fracturing? Or do those who have signed the letter really feel that they have to ‘do the right thing’ because they are exposed? Are they only supporting because they are desperate to have the fig-leaf cover of ”two state solution”?
You may well be right in your assumptions
The aim of Hodges and others screaming Corbyn was anti Semetic and racist was to remove him as Leader. They accomplished that and now they’re back to ‘normal’ and no doubt keen to mend bridges and refashion the narrative. It’s not as if the UK will actually impose sanctions; Trump would be very cross.