Analysis

Video: the Tories are still pursuing herd immunity – just using a new graph

‘Suppress and release’ plan still means letting virus spread, with huge loss of life – just in a series of peaks instead of one

Earlier this week, spooked by public outcry and a university report telling them that their plan would kill hundreds of thousands of people – something the SKWAWKBOX warned weeks ago – the Tories claimed that achieving ‘herd immunity‘ was not their policy.

Herd immunity would mean simply managing the spread of the virus but allowing it to continue until almost everyone has been infected and those who recover have antibodies against the virus. At current mortality rates, vast numbers of people in this country would die.

But the Tories and their advisers have not abandoned their plan. As a BBC presentation of the government’s strategy made absolutely clear last night, all that has changed is the chart and language they are using to describe it:

Even the new language used still makes clear that the plan is to allow the virus to infect people – to “suppress and release” it.

To “turn it on and off like a tap”.

The Tories claim they can do this with enough control to prevent NHS intensive care units being overwhelmed. But even if they were right, the death rate of the virus even under ideal treatment circumstances would mean a strategy of deliberately allowing huge numbers of people to die each time they ‘turn on the tap’.

They’d just do it over a longer period – instead of ‘taking it on the chin’ all at once, as Boris Johnson described it originally. And as a vaccine is at least a year away, the total numbers involved will still be huge.

The Tory ‘herd immunity’ plan has not gone away. Anything but. It has just changed its clothes.

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70 comments

  1. Indeed. The government’s leading scientific expert, Patrick Vallance, was the person who let the cat out of the bag regarding herd immunity. It was Vallance who also predicted that a death doll in this country of anything under 20,000 should be seen as a “good result.” The current death toll in the whole world, including the massively populace country of China (where there are no new cases other than a few returning residents) is only, in total 10,000. I am therefore aghast at this statement from Vallance, and even more aghast that there has been no outrcry about it from the media, from Labour, from well, ANYBODY. A policy designed to make the mortality in this country higher than anywhere else in the world, and being openly described as such, and nobody is challenging it. Something in this country has gone very, very wrong.

    1. The virus has hardly started its effects round the globe yet. Until a vaccine is produced mitigation of its effects ie herd immunity is the only option. The Chinese are very worried about it popping up again as in HK now, and in Wuhan where 95% of the population have had no contact with the virus, re entering travellers are producing new cases so suppression which caused deaths by crashing the economy is not a long term solution. Keeping it relatively quiet is the best bet.

      1. Like this government, you would appear to be out of step with the rest of the world. To casually dismiss China’s achievement in virtually eradicating new cases and limiting fatalities to a few thousand is quite bizarre, especially whilst supporting a policy here where 20,000 deaths is viewed as a good outcome. A quite astonishingly crass and breathtakingly arrogant (and may I say deeply unpleasant) devaluation of human life, there to be saved not experimented with.

      2. Well said! A lot of societal stones are being lifted and no surprise at some of the worms sticking their heads up.

      3. Fascinating how Plan citizen’s debatable, but arguable, case is met by a person-directed hate-fest on the part of self-proclaimed ‘socialists’.

        Until a vaccine is produced, there is no immunity except that developed naturally by the spread of the disease. This isn’t a strategy – just a fact, and anyone can see the problem of isolation in providing an actual long-term solution. it’s really not rocket science.

        Actually, what the Chinese have so far achieved *is* suppression – after a tardy start, with the same aim of a long-term goal of producing a vaccine. If one isn’t produced, then suppression – wherever – may be just a ticking time-bomb. Which is all that PC said.

      4. RH can you not read now The Tory blurb “Herd immunity is the only option” That plain and simple is the voice of the tory propoganda machine,not an argument,not a debate just plain bloody murder!

  2. The infamous Nudge Unit has been at work again intent on trying to judge how many dead loved ones the great British electorate will tolerate and how quickly they can instil a desensitisation to the premature death of those precious to us.

    1. Steve H total agreed the infamous Nudge unit testing our resolve,just goes to show that when the chips are down we the membership have a lot we can come together on..

      1. Joseph, i agree č u. SH is right on that✅ I hope he can agree on the following. PLEASE sign this petition:

        https://www.change.org/p/covid-19-outbreak-suspend-the-labour-leadership-contest?recruiter=7545511&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=d3e736d0-df10-012f-0f93-4040b09128dc

        “ a growing number of people are starting to ask whether the contest should continue. Many believe that its makes sense to keep Corbyn where he is. “

        NB “ … are STARTING to ask…”❓❓❓ NO ‼️ Some have been saying it here for weeks now‼️‼️ It is senseless to change the Leader now. Yes we need a deputy as we have not had one for the last four years Richard Burgon needs to be appointed as interim Dep. 🌹🌹🌹

      2. “Many believe that its makes sense to keep Corbyn where he is.”

        I suppose that depends on your definition of ‘many’, recent polling indicates that only 28% of members would vote for Corbyn if he was standing in the current leadership election.

      3. signpostnotwindchimes – Less than 4½ thousand votes in a week is stretching the definition of ‘many’ a little.

      4. I – amongst others – said that it might be a good idea not to rush the transition.

        But – let’s be honest : the new impulse for keeping Corbyn in place is motivated by the fact that RLB, our ‘New Zionist’ isn’t winning. It’s a bit like the frantic run from considered democracy over a second referendum.when the tide was running counter to sectarian interests.

        The fact is that there is no need to delay the selection – even if the transition is delayed.

        I might support the idea if there was any chance of a better field of candidates emerging. But there’s no such possibility.

  3. Heard Portsmouth FC footballer John Marquis say 3 of his colleagues had been diagnosed with the virus. This was ascertained when all members of the club staff were tested. How wrong can it be that staff at a football club,whose games have been called off,can be getting routinely tested but medics on active duty cannot.

      1. SH there is always money for wars and subsidising parasites like Richard Branson and banks and to pay for WMD Blair’s security – greater than ANY other EX PM‼️ The “experts” the Tories are parading to shine their turds of “herd immunity” despite seeing impressive management elsewhere, are NOT acting according to science. They are promoting wilful Tory wickedness. Inconsistent gibberish to sell their eugenics. The “experts are a disgrace to the medical and scientific professions.

        There were sound warnings as early as January in the public domain. Johnson and Cummings CHOOSE to ignore those warnings. Plus the whole world can see the effective management of the virus in China. They had no hindsight. They could have had an excuse. Johnson, Cummings & Tories have no excuse. An NHS starved of proper support and now NO ADEQUATE PROTECTION for ALL on the frontline of society, including care-home and social care staff, refuse collectors, teachers and education staff, prison staff, supermarket staff…. obvious to all Skwawkbox.org readers but NOT Boris Johnson, Dominic Cummings, Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Gove and the rest of their sordid band. No depravity is to abhorrent for them to embrace. While they pump out hollow words praising the NHS, they starve it. Instead of taking responsibility, Johnson says “the public must do more”.

        Meanwhile, the Tory hedge funds are making billions out of the crisis. In the last two weeks alone hedge-funds have made over one billion pounds, directly due to the crisis. So their IS money SH. There always was. There always is for Johnson’s unbuilt Garden Bridge… private bridge mind you. Yet £40 million of public funds‼️ Hundreds of BILLIONS for the obscene HS2 which starts in London… yes … to benefit the North❓❓❓

        We need Jeremy & Richard Burgon to lead this country properly and with decency. This is no time for the amateur and the visionless Keir Starmer. This is no time for changing the Leadership. Even the head of my council has reversed his decision to step down, because of these unprecedented times. If the leader of the council sees it as injudicious to step-down now, surely it is even more important that the leader of the opposition stays. THIS IS NO TIME for AMATEURS, Tory B Sides, worse yet, amateurs without vision, with no contact or appreciation of the value of ALL people in our country. This is NO time for Starmer to practise being what he is not and never will be.

        The leader ship contest should be called off immediately. 🌹🌹🌹

        https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2020/03/22/a-storm-is-brewing-over-the-labour-leadership-race/

      2. The problem is that not many people agree with you regarding the leadership election. This is amply illustrated by the lack of support for the petition you link to elsewhere.

  4. Once again the Government chases it’s mad dream of establishing herd immunity. The lack of testing and the fudge over quarantining meant it was due to surge anyway. Hotels remain open and there are no travel restrictions. Turning on the virus tap to deliberately infect another chunk of citizens is surely pure Cummings? They ignore medical warnings that immunity isn’t guaranteed and already some countries warn that they wouldn’t allow planes or people from the Uk to enter while the virus continues to be allowed to grow. France was just the first but most countries will take that line for some years after they’ve opened their own borders to ‘safe’ countries.

    1. but we’re getting Brexit done tho aren’t we , so why worry about those pesky foreigners , taking back control , and take it on the chin…….

      JOHNSON MASTER OF DEATH DISASTER

      1. Jack T – It would make for a good start if the Conservative zealots could put the health of the nation before political ideology.

        https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/coronavirus-health-experts-hit-out-21613826
        Downing Street has reportedly rejected pleas to keep the EU’s Early Warning and Response System (EWRS)

        The online platform has existed for 22 years to let health chiefs exchange rapid information about “serious cross-border threats to health”.

        But according to the Daily Telegraph, No10 has rejected pleas to keep it as part of a trade deal – despite even a Department of Health official lobbying for access.

        A source told the newspaper: “The Department of Health pitched for continued access to the EWRS to be an objective of the negotiations.

        “But it was blocked because they didn’t want to be accused of seeking more than the basic Canada deal.”

      2. SteveH. As we know, it wasn’t just the far right in the Tory Party, it was also a small ‘left’ contingent of the Labour Party who were stubborn enough to hold on to outdated views of the EU (Common Market) and thereby abet the disaster of Brexit. Their anti-EU obsession split the Party and drove us away from our Socialist comrades on the continent.

        Because of CV-19, the awful results of the Brexit decision will now be multiplied and brought forward much sooner than anyone expected.

      3. The reports that I’m hearing – both first and second hand – suggest that there is a substantial section of the Great British Public who don’t need much assistance from the government to keep spreading the virus and unnecessarily reducing food stocks.They can do it all on their own according to information from holiday-type venues yesterday. The spread must have been massively encouraged by this.

        Which does indeed raise the question of a formal lock-down. Put all the evidence together, and there is confirmation that the country has a substantial idiocracy that is a particular risk factor.

      4. The prize idiot is in Downing St. He’s afraid to do what he ought to do. We need a real Churchill not a blustering fool still looking for a partisan party advantage. It’s time for a National Plan drawn up by politicians who know what is needed. Churchill would have invited Corbyn into his Government AND allowed him to devise his own policy. Johnson would probably prefer to suffocate from the virus. He’s going to have to GO!

    2. I am sure the Government will be handing over lots of our money to the infamous Brittania Hotels group.Like Richard Branson and the virgin group they are always first in the line for a handout.Brittanias speciality is Refuggees like the europa hotel at Gatwick and of course taking up any contracts to treet people like cattle..Strange how these parasites are keen on a bit of Socialism if its our money 💰💰

  5. This is Imperial Colleges projection the figures are real-lease disseminate if you feel appropriate not the puppet BBC version

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/3-charts-that-changed-coronavirus-policy-in-the-uk-and-us/

    This shows the axis and the total number of deaths produced by imperial college not the simplistic chart used by the BBC.

    Please use this to show the extent of the collateral damage the government were planning.

    Also the herd immunisation model is the only option unless a vaccine is found sooner-see timeline.

    The government and their so called scientific adviser should have implemented a more assertive action program reducing movement of the population much earlier and a comprehensive testing

    Do Your own research it is out there.

  6. China approach is assertive and has been successful but they do expect further outbreaks ,which they will use the same strategy to mitigate the occurrences and save lives!!

    1. “The poor being sacrificed on the alter of capitalism”

      Oh FFS! You think the virus discriminates? Assertions like that aren’t politics – they’re knee-jerk babble.

      Mainly, greater numbers are being sacrificed on the altar of the idiocy of numpties – of whatever wealth bracket.

  7. Smallpox took the lives of estimated 300million people before it was finally eradicated through vaccination.

  8. ‘Not Done Yet’: Bernie Sanders Campaign Mobilizes Donors for Coronavirus Relief and Raises $2 Million

    Sen. Bernie Sanders’ for the 2020 Democratic presidential nomination campaign’s prodigious fundraising operation raised $2 million for charities helping those most affected by the coronavirus outbreak crisis in the last 48 hours in a move that supporters said exemplified the message of solidarity the Vermont lawmaker has run on.

    The campaign mobilized staff and volunteers to text and call to raise money for five charities: Meals on Wheels, No Kid Hungry, Restaurant Workers’ Community Foundation COVID-19 Emergency Relief Fund, One Fair Wage Emergency Fund, and the National Domestic Workers Alliance.

    Robin Curran, the campaign’s digital fundraising director, said in a statement that the money raised showed the importance of Sanders’ “Not me, us” slogan.
    https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/03/21/not-done-yet-bernie-sanders-campaign-mobilizes-donors-coronavirus-relief-and-raises

  9. Knowing the Nudge Unit and Cummings and Johnson, I strongly suspected this would continue. As a retired scientist it looked dire and the lack of “gold standard” testing and tracing was always going to end like this. The “20,000 will be a good result” shows that there is no policy to try and stem the flow of infection, just the opposite.

    I now feel like I’m in mourning. Not just for those who will die unnecessarily (probably me too), for our people, for the elderly and disabled who will be pushed to the back of the queue, and ignored, but also for the death of democracy. It has always been the baseline of UK politics that parliament works for the good of the people, but now I mourn for our collective blighted future with this sh*tshow of a government.

  10. So here is Boris’s new plan. Essentially it is to distil it into a worse virus… This is what happened in 1918 leading to the second wave of more potent Spanish flu. Only that was by accident and convalescing troops from the end of WW1 returning back home to spread the disease… This is a Tory Government plan…

    It will result in evolutionary selection of a version of the virus that has an increasingly longer infection period and cause the refined virus mutations to overwhelm the stable nasty but could be worse current virus, to be replaced by multiple mutations, some of which may significantly affect children, most of which will be adapted to survive in wider environments and some of which will get past previous immunity, that is how the common and seasonal flu operate, thus making a more potent versions of Covid 19/B/C/D… endemic in the UK.

    Can some one at WHO please explain to the idiot bean counters operating UK Health policy that viruses do not work like they do in graphs.

      1. Paul there is a uplifting article in the Canary today that points out there’s some hope for progressive thinking around the world even amongst the Trump government..! NO sign in the Torys yet but they are the establishment after all.

      2. We only received that article this morning. WW2 saw a shift to the Left in the UK, culminating in not just the 1945 Election victory for Labour but things like the Squatter Movement which was unstoppable and led to mass house building and the defiance over using tube stations for shelter. But the Churchill government was more than half Labour. Attlee was Deputy PM. Bevin did things to industry that the Tories could never have done. That Government took the crisis and the state of the people seriously. With the current shysters they’d never give up a chance to kick Labour when down. Churchill’s Cabinet was truly a collection of some of the most dynamic political figures available. Johnson’s is uniquely extreme in its Rightwing ideology backed up by a media that lives in its own bubble every bit as bad as Westminster’s. Johnson runs a one man band with baby politicians aping the ‘line’. It’s truly unfit for the job it faces. It was very interesting to hear about your experiences in Cambodia and it does seem you are wise not to attempt a return which might be a jump from the frying pan into the fire. Mind you you might be needed here when our next 1945 moment comes!

  11. Middle East Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus another of the zoonoses which is out there.Comes from camels.

  12. We having been infected know what to expect.My family living together had vastly different reactions from the virus dependent on age.the children had what seemed a bad cold,coughs raised temps fever and loss of appetite.They were kept off school and not allowed to go out.3wks.My son and his wife Flu like symptoms isolated and struggled through without taking to the bed.Myself the oldest 70this year Fever violent coughing headace loss of appetite taste and smell and trouble breathing and even drinking..bedridden for 3weeks but must say that I felt worse with Dengue fever last year.My wife 5years younger than me had the violent coughing fevers etc but like all grandmothers and mothers stayed on her feet and struggled by.We all self isolated and thats not difficult here.We were diagnosed early on but did not advertise it and kept indoors which is not difficult if outdoors is like an oven and indoors we have aircon.Most of you will survive and will only be reminded if you know or are elderly yourself,but we must never ever sink to the belief that the elderly and the vulnerable have no lifes worth protecting and are natural “Wastage” The Tory mentality cannot be allowed to carry on with their sick and evil ideology.And remember to show no tolerance for collaberators and the enemy within.Dangerous times require good leaders and I havnt seen any in the UK.,especially now when we need them.

    1. Joseph, now you’ve got me wondering if central HVAC might be capable of moving infection around inside and between nearby buildings.

      1. David McNivan Well apart from 1case of Typhoid amongst our village(commune)we are all of us getting better.We are the only European\ Khmer mix with aircon and the rest have fans.Of course I was worried over the 1case of Typhoid because I was largely responsible for the instilation of “Modern Plumbing “here including Solar Hot water and electricity.We are off grid and isolated by our geography,stuck in the middle of rice fields sorounded by the Boker mountains.The aircon was installed as a fallback position if anyone was sick.We normally only use fans and only on occasionally especially at nights which at the moment are very warm it being the hot season.Good point though David regarding aircon Legonella etc.Regards

  13. Does anyone really need a graph to tell them that lockdown is the answer?
    Water, food, power, healthcare, emergency services and comms – the provision and distribution of these things (and those I’ve forgotten) are essentials. Enforcement of lockdown is mandatory so policing is also essential.
    All those things combined involve few enough people that in the event of infection their movements and contacts can be fully backtracked with anything approaching a decent monitoring system and continuous testing in place.
    Maybe 95% of everything else can be left in mothballs if returning our financial positions to their state immediately prior to the emergency is guaranteed by government.
    If no-one needs to fear destitution there’s no incentive to break quarantine.
    No profiteering, no bankruptcies and the world’s safe again in weeks.

    Command economies will be seen to have handled this emergency far more effectively and capitalism will have proved itself weak, indecisive and incompetent in both emergency and recovery – and that’s likely to become obvious to everyone soon enough.

    Live markets might need to be foregone in future I think, despite the suppression of ancient culture it seems to imply. Either that or quarantine become a permanent requirement between countries until science can cure everything – the too-close human/live food interface will probably forever throw up the occasional species-jumping mutation.

  14. France, Spain and Italy r not “getting Brexit done”. Italy had has largest Covid-19 mortality daily rates in the whole world. It is beyond reason that there r some who STILL r berserk with remain fever. Odd beyond words. Logic: China is not in the EU. China was in front of the virus, so no examples to observe elsewhere. 1️⃣ With neither the benefit of observing other countries, nor EU membership, their new cases are imported ones. 2️⃣ France has impounded face masks bound to the UK. Germany has blocked export of equipment to Switzerland. Germany and France have blocked export of equipment and supplies to … yes … ITALY. Meanwhile it is China that is sending equipment to Italy. 3️⃣ And, wait for it..,hot off the press, it is nit the EU, but, Cuba, yes CUBA, as it has for decades, sending help to other countries. To Venezuela, Jamaica, Grenada and ??? to ITALY. So having just scanned a few posts above, it is now beyond me how after months, intelligent people are still obsessed with remain. It really is beyond reason. It seems the fixation has blinded some to facts.

    ANYWAY – this will not be circulated by the MSM bottom feeders so do disinfect yourselves with this and REPEAT:

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-cuba/cuban-doctors-head-to-italy-battle-coronavirus-idUKKBN219051

    🌹🌹🌹

    1. Reuters are bottom feeders like the rest.
      “Many Cuban hospitals have fallen into disrepair and Cubans say they have difficulty finding medicine, a situation the government says is largely due to decades-old U.S. sanctions although analysts blame also the inefficient state-run economy.”
      Big Pharma doesn’t like challenges to its price-gouging. There’s never been a shortage of capitalist ‘think tankers’ and ‘analysts’ willing to decry socialism for a couple of bucks.
      Cuba is at least as efficient as any other Caribbean island – capitalists will point to tax havens as being wealthier, but then they would, wouldn’t they – having spent vast sums and vast numbers of soldiers’ lives trying to crush every attempt at a socialist government there’s ever been?

      Every link on that page selling ‘investment opportunities’ is another clue to Reuters’ pro-establishment position.

      1. McNiv all u say above is true. But Reuters still put it out there. i’v neither read nor heard that Cuba is sending aid to Italy and elsewhere, anywhere else.
        Of course the rundown infrastructure is due to sanctions imposed by capitalist countries and those subject to pressure because they are poor.
        Cuba also allowed the cruise ship to dock, and allowed BA to fly in to repatriate the passengers. That has not been given any coverage other than in the DM and Reuters. Of course the MSM is deplorable, but it is worth highlighting positive when we see it. Reuters recently featured an excellent & moving set of imagines documenting the plight of the Palestinians. I say let us reap positives where we find it. 🌹🌹🌹

      2. Actually signpost, the cruise ship and the doctors were mentioned – without comment – on the BBC News channel.
        Not every quarter or half hour with input from any Tory with a phone like the antisemitism slurs obviously, but it was on at least.
        It was either Friday or Saturday very early morning I think.

      3. McNiv, as u say it was on , re the cruise ship , v early morn, it brought something to mind. In the days of listening to BBC News like a religion, i pointed out to someone that i noticed the quality of the world service and BBC news very early was markedly less propaganda than the rest of the coverage. The response was matter-of-fact calm, that most people would not consume the very early progs or World Service. The person worked in Nato.

        But you are right, no 24hr phone ins on LBC & Talkradio on the help and humanity the Cubans showed us. So i would be astounded were there any phone in coverage on 5Live etc.

      4. signpostnotwindchimes – You are right about the news and current affairs programs on BBC World Service, the editorial policy is more balanced than the partisan coverage on BBC R4 & R5Live

  15. In all this, the most significant factor isn’t what the Tory government is doing now. It’s what it’s done in the previous ten years – namely denuded the NHS to an unconscionable degree, so that it is struggling to meet what would be a massive overload at any time. The testing, equipment and staffing issues are all part of this back-story.

    The one positive (?) aspect is that the system is responding as well as it does – because of the concept of a *National* Health Service. What it can’t do is compensate for the assault upon it.

    The public knew this. It was the one aspect of the Labour case that was widely accepted before the election. Yet they voted in a Tory government, and currently we are seeing the same numptiness of self-harm operating.

    The numpty vote is what gets the Tories over the line – as it did with Brexit – all backed by control of the media.

    Which raises the question of what happens after all this?

    It’s easy to think that blaming stuff on government missteps will; bring rewards to Labour in electoral terms. But I’m not so sure.

    The financial measures that the Tories have been forced into should blow the whole ‘austerity’ agenda – the basis of 10 years policy – out of the water. The whole episode *should* illustrate the need for state intervention and community power. In sum – the Tory ideology has been destroyed by this epidemic – as has any notion that herd wisdom and behaviour equates to ‘democracy’.

    But will logic simply flow like this? I have doubts. Will the aftermath result in Churchill’s comedy clone getting two fingers – as the real deal did in 1945?

    Which then raises the question of how Labour needs to respond.

    1. RH like many you are not impressed with our list of candidates for leadership.We can agree on that,but where are our leaders if the only ones we are allowed to vote for are PLP approved….I am sure that we have some with true leadership qualities but the click in the PLP will not let them get near us.We really are digging a deep hole again for the Labour party and the public.Noted today in the indy Johnson’s urging the public To Do More.?.I think the panic as started to get to our PM and the blame game as begun…?

    2. The crisis won’t be resolved by a partisan Tory government that is uniquely and peculiarly right wing and Populist. We need a Churchillian style of Government with Corbyn as Deputy PM and a strong socialist plan as to how we recover. Unfortunately Johnson is no Churchill even though he loves imitating his voice. The real Churchill shunned the Tory Rightwing who were frankly fascist and invited socialists and even communists to government.

    3. ‘.The system is responding’ really? How? Where? You can’t mean it couldn’t be done better (although I suspect you do).

      1. Of course I don’t mean that! I mean that the people on the front line and in the administration *that I see* are doing a sterling job, despite the constraints forced on them.

        I am in a parallel situation to you; I depend upon the NHS. I was in hospital last week, and am again, reluctantly, in the same situation tomorrow. I have no option. Thus my scathing view of those who do have such options and wilfully f.ck up the decision.

        Given the pre-existing depredations inflicted by the Tories, my immediate concern are thus the f.ing numpties and dick-brains (who seem to engender inordinate sympathy here) and manage to apply their wondrous insight by ducking personal responsibility by ignoring the bleedin’ obvious. They will trail infection around the nation, to the detriment of others.

  16. Throwing terms such as “numpty vote” just alienates them and the will not back down just look at BREXIT reaction, EU elections and finally GE19.
    The education cirriculum fails to target the alternative history which includes Chartism, Tolpuddle and the Captain Swing riots. I also suggest you do some research on Propoganda before you attribute blame.

    1. Throwing terms such as “numpty vote” just alienates them and the will not back down just look at BREXIT reaction, EU elections and finally GE19.

      You DO realise that’s rh you’re telling? You’d be better off trying to teach a cat to do algebraic logarithms in Canton Chinese ffs.

      Anyone who isn’t dicky is a ‘numpty’.

    2. “Throwing terms such as “numpty vote” just alienates them”

      That’s just circular. Or are you recommending ‘nudge’ strategy for those acting anti-socially? Because that’s gone well.

      There’s a hell of a lot of people who didn’t vote like numpties and aren’t now behaving like numpties, but who will be affected by those who did. You can excuse anything with faux-sympathy and the excusing of personal responsibility. There are limits to sensitivity and tolerance.

      Are you saying that the root cause is an *inability* to grasp the bleedin’ obvious, and that a pat on the head and gentle coaxing is needed? Apart from the fact it doesn’t work, it’s also – actually – condescending, because it suggests a fundamental *incapacity* to understand – which leads ineluctably to the need for stronger measures on the basis that nothing will change without compulsion to counteract the behaviour of those short of that capacity.

      Are you also recommending the same sort of gentle ‘understanding’ for ‘Blairites”? ‘Centrists’? the ‘Rifght’? the Israel Lobby? – and – err – Tories in general? Because you can make the same sort of case.

  17. A vaccine and a ‘magic bullet’ treatment are the twin research strands I expect.
    “At least a year” is being quoted as the earliest a vaccine could possibly complete the usual animal then human testing regime to prove a potential vaccine safe.
    When people come into hospital knowing death is likely surely most would grab the opportunity to join any trial, however untested, just to advance the sum of medical knowledge – even knowing they’re still unlikely to survive?
    I’d consider my consent informed on being told only that an experiment might help and was unlikely to hurt my chances.

    Vaccine testing rules for normal circumstances shouldn’t apply to fast-moving global pandemics. Duh.

  18. The Coronavirus Bill contains the most draconian powers ever proposed in peace-time Britain.

    It contains:

    Sweeping powers to detain, isolate and test ‘potentially infectious’ members of the public, even children, in quarantine facilities on threat of criminal sanction
    Powers to forcibly take biological samples from adults and children

    Powers to shut down gatherings, which could thwart the possibility of protest against extreme measures

    Diluted safeguards on state surveillance powers

    Extended powers for detention and forced treatment under the Mental Health Act at a time when people are under unprecedented psychological pressure.

    https://mailchi.mp/bigbrotherwatch/breaking-police-facial-recognition-in-use-today-in-london-1099727?e=5237ac326f

    1. SM the most sinister part is that its not been flagged that the powers will be for 2years,that the non government wish for and will almost certainly get.

      1. Many thanks for trouble with cutting and pasting.
        If people go to the URL in my post this is included.

  19. Yanks are some weird fucks.
    One called Billy Binion defends price-gouging of emergency supplies in emergencies here…

    https://reason.com/2020/03/06/to-avoid-charges-of-price-gouging-ebay-bans-sale-of-coronavirus-supplies/

    … apparently this person is considered a reputable journalist ‘over there’.

    The Trunt is apparently hoping to kill Venezuelans into toeing his line by denying them the means to fight CV.
    Like I said… some weird fucks.

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