Analysis Exclusive

Exclusive: the moment and real reason Karie Murphy lost her LOTO position

Labour Chief of Staff’s change of role – the media spin and the reality
Karie Murphy

The mainstream media – heavily briefed by politicians close to John McDonnell – have constructed a narrative around the move of key Corbyn aides from his ‘LOTO’ (leader of the opposition) office to the party’s Southside HQ.

Rotten planks

Key planks of that narrative are a supposed rift between Labour’s outgoing policy head Andrew Fisher and Corbyn’s Chief of Staff Karie Murphy – and supposed issues with LOTO staff morale.

The reality is very different. As the SKWAWKBOX revealed exclusively last week, Fisher’s resignation letter did not mention Murphy even once – and Fisher himself has said that he has no issues with her.

Nor were there significant morale issues – although that has now changed since the departure of Murphy and a number of her team.

Targeted in triumph

But the real reason behind Murphy’s removal – the moment where she was effectively targeted for removal – was a moment of triumph for the Corbyn project just three weeks ago, on the Monday of Labour’s conference.

As Labour’s delegates gathered in Brighton, two competing policy motions were on the table: Composite 13, a motion to push the party into a ‘full-remain’ stance and Composite 14 – the motion supporting the position of Jeremy Corbyn and Labour’s National executive that Labour would not decide whether to campaign for remain or leave in any new referendum until after the details of Labour’s ‘credible leave’ deal had been negotiated under a Labour government.

A couple of weeks earlier, the unions had agreed at the TUC congress that they would support Corbyn’s position – enough to more or less guarantee that it would pass at Labour’s conference.

But remain ‘ultras’ were desperate to prevent it – and on the morning of the Brighton votes, Unison and a number of smaller unions performed a screeching u-turn and agreed, after back-room deals with the remainers revealed exclusively by the SKWAWKBOX, to support the full-remain motion.

Unison, the UK’s largest union, had enough votes at Labour’s conference that any split among the delegates representing Labour members could cause the full-remain motion to pass – and if it did, the motion backing Corbyn’s stance that was the next on the agenda would never even come to a vote.

This was a potentially catastrophic development for the left and for the nation. Any move to such a full-remain stance will be deadly to Labour’s prospects in the two-thirds of its seats that voted to leave the EU in 2016. Some on the Labour right are more than prepared to accept electoral disaster in their pursuit of remain and of Corbyn’s removal – in spite of the massive impact it would have on the millions suffering poverty and misery under the Tories.

Behind the scenes, urgent meetings and discussions began to try to solidify support for Corbyn’s position and defeat the full-remain motion – and at the centre of these was Karie Murphy.

Murphy worked flat out – in spite of recent health problems – to ensure that Corbyn’s supporters and those who recognised the disaster represented by ‘full remain’ all pulled in the same direction and that every available vote was cast.

And when the votes came in, heavily defeating Composite 13 and overwhelmingly passing Composite 14, Murphy – easily recognisable by her red mane – was at the back of the conference hall to witness the results of her efforts to support and protect her boss:

The overwhelming vote for Corbyn’s position

It was a huge triumph – for Murphy, for her boss and for the movement. It was also the moment at which her card was marked.

Those who were determined to drag Labour into full remain – even if it meant trampling over the democratic decision members and unions had just made – knew that if they were going to manoeuvre Corbyn into such a stance, Murphy and a number of her most supportive team members had to go.

And now we are where we are. Hot on the heels of the announcement of the move and with Corbyn now isolated from his most effective support, several Shadow Cabinet members were talking up the need for a referendum before a general election – the first step on the path to a party remain policy in that referendum and completely at odds with Corbyn’s clear position that a general election must come first.

Murphy’s greatest triumph meant she had to be removed to expose Corbyn. Will party members and the unions stand for it?

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  1. Why is Corbyn unable to reinstate Murphy and relocate her with her colleagues back to where they were?

  2. No we will not stand for it. Remainers in Labour don’t really care about remaining in the EU, all they care about is toppling the socialist leader of the Labour Party.


      All the the above, and much in the same vein have festered while we have been in the EU. If even a small fraction of the time, words and effort were devoted to pressing long standing issues like these as the now fevered frenzied evidence poor clamour to maintain the status quo, who knows how this country could have been?

      Why should the Labour heartlands not think we never valued their view? Can we be certain how things will be if we remain? What was agreed in the 70s ref is not what the EU is now. Is that not proof that remaining is uncertain? Norway and Switzerland are not fully in the EU. Do they have a worse life experience and satisfaction than we do? Are their citizens running about painted blue, chasing grubs for a spartan meal? Year after year they outpace the UK on the Human Development Index (HDI). It is an acknowledged superior measure of the quality of life rather than GDP. So why not contemplate that and at least try to emulate the Norwegians and Swiss?

      And if we feel virtuous calling for more foreign aid which has kept the poor countries poor, then why should we be so blindly desperate to remain and maintain a protectionist EU while admitting that their tariffs are destructive for us! Surely if EU tariffs can be destructive for us, then are they not at present even more limiting to the poor countries?

      The status quo has endured for over 40 years. Why would it change now, if we cave in to pressure and quash democracy? What example is that to other countries? Why would the EU feel any need to listen to anything we say in future?

      Why do we believe “free movement” for people who look like us at the expense of those who don’t and are from further away, why do we not see that attitude as Xenophobic?
      The Windrush scandal went on for at least a decade. There was no sustained outcry. NONE. It is STILL in operation. Where is the energised outcry from the “virtuous”?

      Finally, Over a million EU citizens have applied to become British since the EU vote. Why would they want to become British if leaving will be such a disaster? Illogical. No? At least 500,000 in the last month I believe.

      The obsession with campaigning AGAINST the ref result, needs to be reconsidered urgently, and underpinned by hard evidence. This writer has read and listened diligently and has found only hysterical opinion and weak feelings cloaked by claims of being something more reasoned and noble. They are neither… Well meaning yes! … based on history and sound socioeconomic analysis NO.

      The EU is part of the problem. It is not an ingredient to transform the world. Were it otherwise, TWT would be almost superfluous. TWT’s best purpose is bringing the loveliest of well-meaning people together in one place. Its most radical pursuit would be to campaign and explain clearly and vigorously to free ourselves from the EU. Just as the electorate expected their view would be implemented as promised by the Govt funded booklet that was posted to EVERY home. I read mine. So did at least 17.4 million other people possibly. People voted then. Why ask again and again until people deliver the answer we want?

      1. Our warped housing market is nothing to do with the EU.
        Not building enough affordable houses, selling off council stock, TV celebration of the buy-to-let market, Tories calling property bought by foreign oligarchs “inward investment” as if non-doms buying property here and keeping it empty to pump up the market was a good thing, builders land-banking to keep prices high – these things have all contributed.
        Any government that builds enough houses to satisfy demand will reduce prices and the nimby types won’t stand for falling prices even though they’re far too high in relation to wages.
        The simple fact is that any government that causes house prices to fall will be kicked out of office at the first opportunity.
        House price inflation made people feel wealthier and they don’t want to give that up despite having done nothing to deserve it and it only becoming real profit if they exit the market.
        As a society we really are that profoundly stupid – we allow the MSM to con us that our kids suffering falling standards of living to keep the Tories in power and the rich in superyachts is necessary to “the economic health of the nation.”

      2. signpostnotwindchimes – Yes, and if the Winrush generation, many of whom were my classmates, came here from Europe yesterday, they would have more right to remain here (not wishing bad treatment for EU emigrants either) but where was the protection from the EU for the Windrush generation?
        ‘The EU gives workers protection etc’.Really? Where is the EU protection from Zero hours contracts, food banks, Universal credit, scandalous rising levels of child poverty and homelessness? These questions are what drove the ‘leave’vote in working class areas. Try telling them they’re better off in the EU.

      3. Carlene Edmonds at 12:48 am
        ” Try telling them they’re better off in the EU.”

        Polling indicates that many of them have, unsurprisingly, already worked that out for themselves.

      4. SteveH 14/10/2019 at 12:55 am . – Oh of course, silly me Steve, I forgot about that so relysble measure of oppinion – polling. LOL
        But then I do live in Peterborough and most of my family including myself voted ‘leave’and say would do so again, but then we’re probably a bunch of racist xenophobes, despite some of them being mixed race.

      5. Carlene Edmonds at 1:54 am
        I never even hinted at either racism or xenophobia. Why you would choose to introduce them into the conversation is beyond me. I also fail to see how the racial mix of your family is relevant.

      6. Carlene Edmonds, to complain that the EU failed to protect us from our own government’s policies… while at the same time demanding that Britain’s government “takes back control”… is to hold two diametrically opposed positions simultaneously.
        One can’t do that and be taken seriously.

    2. When Jeremy Corbyn decides to back Remain in the next referendum, you will be one of the first to get the dagger out. Brexit is all you care about.

    3. The voice of the Toytown Left emerges again from under the duvet.

      It’s Jeremy *Corbyn*, not *Kyle* – I think you’ve tuned to the wrong channel.

      1. If it was: ‘Aimed at the IA drivel’ WHY did you not reply directly?

        Silly question – it speaks for itself.

      2. Really, Toffee – it’s not difficult to work out. Sometimes posts get misplaced. Or is that too unconspiratorial?

    4. You’ll note there’s a fair few other comments from other posters before the usual whoppers develop the ‘cojones’ to reply to you, unlike me – who’s replied directly to this post.

      And instead of accepting any blame for what HAS happened, they still try to hurl accusations out for things that HAVEN’T.

      Utter shithouses. But par for the course.

      1. Ah, I see what’s happened now….

        OK, so rh might’ve replied to IA directly, doesn’t make him (Or the other two) any less of a tool, though.

      2. A ‘considerably sharper tool’ than me?

        Says the absolute imbecile what reckons 16m > 17m?

  3. Who are these people who wield so much power that they can move important people around like chess pieces?

    1. That is my immediate reaction. I’m confused as to why Corbyn can’t chose who he wants.

      1. “I’m confused as to why Corbyn can’t chose who he wants.”

        I’m sure he can. David & glyn are asking the right questions and – if/when they are not answered – will probably refuse to validate crazy, conspiratoral theories which only sap Labour members’ determination to work hard for a Labour victory in the upcoming General Election.

        What on earth is going on?

        It seems that some in Labour are determined that Brexit should destroy their party too, not just the Conservatives.

        I despair.

      2. ” I’m confused as to why Corbyn can’t chose who he wants.”

        Ever considered that he has done – or agreed that something needed sorting to save the shit show?

    2. I’ve decided not to cancel my standing order to Labour just yet.
      Going to wait and see – after thinking things through I’m less pessimistic than I was.
      However dark it gets the Sun always comes up again 🙂

  4. I’m so disappointed in John McDonnell. Just another shady political chancer to go in the Watson/Thornberry/Starmer bin of history.

    The door is closing on a British socialist government, I fear…

    1. Perhaps McDonnell’s feeling his age and sees this as his last chance at the top job.
      Door closing on a British socialist government? Let’s hope not.
      No matter how many of us made our complaints to the Labour Party, on this evidence it probably still wouldn’t have the desired effect.
      If half a million of us signed a petition to form a new, truly socialist party united behind Jeremy Corbyn and a full left wing manifesto, take our contributions with us and vet our PPC’s properly, maybe we could finally have a party we could be unreservedly proud of.

  5. I remain unconvinced and it doesn’t really do anything to repudiate the assertions in yesterdays Guardian.

  6. 90% of Labour members are pro-Remain so it seemed like a sure thing that would be the result, but this was framed as a confidence motion in the LOTO to enforce a neutral position. This decision now virtually ensures that the majority of voters that have left Labour, that is the ones which have moved to the Greens, Libdems, SNP & PC, will stay there, and Labour will probably lose the next GE as a consequence. It will be BJs Falklands moment, and he will be celebrated as a hero allowing him to force through a hard Brexit scrapping social standards and workers rights, now he’s free of EU protections, heralding a generation of disaster capitalism. So well done Karie and Co, Johnson and Cummings must have been celebrating after that vote.

    Incidentally, most ex Labour voters in those 2016 ‘Leave constituencies ‘ are Remainers by a wide margin, and the Leavers aren’t that interested in Brexit anyway. In fact what changes there has been from Leave to Remain has been with Labour voters, and together with demographics a majority of Labour constituencies are now Remain.

    What an absolute disaster of a decision!

    1. Could you please furnish me with an Poll of more than 10,000 Party members that would support your assertion that 90% of a Party of more than 500K are pro-Remain?

      I’m for Brexit, I’m part of the ‘headbanger Left’, I have powerful ecological concerns, none of which are assuaged by the EU I can assure you, and, up-until McNicol kicked me out, I was a Labour Party member.

      Again, either back up this crass statement with facts, or withdraw it for, most of the 2000 Leftwingers I associate with believe in upholding the 2016 EU Vote, and many who Voted Remain in this group, due to the antics of the Remianiacs, are now in favour of Brexit – perhaps my core group are the 10%, but I don’t think you can call yourself a socialist if you issue support to any neoliberal institution who’s economic prescriptions ensure austerity for most folk within the EU borders.

      1. christopher rogers at 8:41 pm

        Could you please furnish me with an Poll of more than 10,000 Party members that would support your assertion that 90% of a Party of more than 500K are pro-Remain?

        There are dozens of polls and academic studies all indicating that the majority of Labour’s members and voters both favour a CV and remaining in the EU. You can’t even provide even one to the contrary

      2. SteveH,

        Then please produce them, and I’m not talking a handful of persons talked too via a telephone. The only Poll I’m aware off is the one by Lord Ashcroft after the Brexit Vote and that indicated 63% of Labour Supporters/members voted Remain, meaning 37% did not, and in actual Leave Constituencies, the ones we need to win or hold you can bet your monthly salary that more than 37% of Labour Voters/members voted Leave.

        Still, what do I care, as soon as Labour becomes full Remain any GE is lost, so hope you are happy with that fact, I’m certainly not, but Remainiacs are.

      3. Nice one Jack T, from The Guardian, where else of course. Here’s a fact, I don’t read The Guardian and have not done so since 2016, and given its a virulent, neoliberal, wanton warmongering rag, please don’t be offended if i tell you I ain’t interested in Guardian pro-EU propaganda, I’ll stick to Off Guardian thanks very much, and its readership is about 90% opposed to the EU.

      4. christopher rogers at 10:07 pm

        I’m sure you are more than capable of using Google to find the many, many non Guardian polls and academic studies available all indicating that the vast majority of Labour supporters want to remain in the EU. Even the poll commissioned by ‘Leave Means Leave’ indicted the same.

      5. Christopher Rogers, nor do I read the Guardian, they delight in trying to undermine Corbyn. However, the study was led by Prof Tim Bale of Queen Mary University of London,

        It’s easy to dismiss studies which contradict ones views but have you ever seen a poll or study which shows most Labour members support Leave?

    2. I support remain.

      I also recognise that Labour supporting remain right now would be a disaster.

      There is more to politics than stamping your little foot and demanding what you want right here, right now.

      Especially when millions of people passionately want the exact opposite.

  7. If all this is true, I’m still at a loss to understand how anyone other than the LOTO could have relocated his staff to other positions. We all know Corbyn is to some degree a hostage of the right – but surely not to that degree?

  8. THREE of the above posters (out of six posts at the time of writing) have posed the question that I myself have been wondering about, and no doubt a lot of other people/members too. Surely SOMEONE knows the answer, so could you please enlighten us if you do – ie how was it possible to move staff from LOTO and isolate JC.

    It doesn’t make sense. But there MUST be an explanation!

  9. Skwawky’s interpretation of the consequences of that fateful decision is a complete reversal of what is in store for us if common sense does not prevail.

  10. That the Remain faction at the ‘top’ of Labour have now completely isolated Corbyn is no surprise.
    Since Murphy’s move to Southside, we’ve had Campbell praising her replacement/McDonnell’s ‘love-in’ with Campbell/McDonnell siding with Watson/Starmer and Thornberry talking up a referendum before an election/talk of Corbyn standing down if he loses the election/polls of who should be the next leader, all signifying a profound shift in the Labour power balance. This is not adverse MSM reporting, this has actually happened.
    If Corbyn and us, his supporters, do not fight back against this coup. for coup it is, the election, regardless of the outcome of a new referendum, will be lost.The Corbyn Project will be over.
    And to all those who think McDonnell wouldn’t betray Corbyn….. he has.

    1. Paul,

      Its been downhill for the Left/democratic reformists within the Labour Party since it adopted the IHRA Definition of AS, followed by the NEC/Union stitch-up over Open Selection. Had we had Open Selection JC’s hand and that of the Left would have been strengthened greatly, instead, we’ve seen a weakening of the Left – McDonnell being the latest sell out, and if you think his Remain antics are the ones that influence my opinion, think again, because most of his economic prescriptions are very much Post-Keynsian, meaning, imbued with neoliberalism – we’ve tried to influence him but failed, hence, I just give up now and will just push radical green solutions, which again, Labour seems to take with a pinch of salt. Don’t even get be going on about the EU, which is about as Green as a US oil Business!

      1. “Its been downhill for the Left/democratic reformists within the Labour Party since it adopted the IHRA Definition of AS, followed by the NEC/Union stitch-up over Open Selection”. That’s true.

        Add to that the “fast track expulsion” of members accused of antisemitism. The decision to accept this was carried largely by the union vote. Why? And take note of the wording – fast track EXPULSION. Not fast track disciplinary measure.

        I think we need to be asking serious question of what the trade unions are up to. Labour MPs have to be sponsored by a union, that includes the right wing members of the PLP. If the unions are representing their members, why have they not pulled the plug on the likes of Jess Phillips or TWatson? Why have the union reps on the NEC allowed their members to be vilified, suspended or expelled on false antisemitism claims? And why are the unions not more vocal in their support for Corbyn?

        Supporting Corbyn doesn’t appear to be on their agenda, despite overwhelming support from grass roots members for real and lasting change that a Corbyn government would work for.

        The unions have some explaining to do.

    2. I think that’s a very clear sighted assessment. For me the betrayal began when J.McD. failed to call out Hodge’s behaviour towards Corbyn. Perhaps I was wrong, but I had the impression that he was happy to use that occasion to further the redemption of his image in the MSM and I said so at the time.

    3. “the Remain faction”

      … i.e the large majority of the Labour Party and its vote.

      I think ‘faction’ applies more accurately to the small minority of Lexitories.

  11. Difficult to quite grasp who precisely has the power over Corbyn to ensure that he makes the changes in his staffing.

  12. Stand by Karie!
    Seems the Right and some Fake Left opportunists would be happy to commit electoral suicide by going all out for Remain, of course they’re ok on £80k and won’t suffer like millions will which will grow.
    But the political imbeciles would win but lose.
    Labour could become like Pasok with 80 MPs and irrelevant, emptied of left wing democratic socialist ideas when it still could win a transformative programme with JC.
    But there is one thing wrong with the Right wing et al and their cunning plan.
    The majority JC membership, they want the Left to Give Up, but they need to Step Up!
    I have written a ditty for Karie based on the tune John Brown’s Body, all together now!
    ‘The Right and fellow travellers.
    They work for Labour to lose.
    So Karie stopped the suicide.
    To smash their little ruse.
    So now the knives are out for her.
    They’re made poor Karie pay.
    And we want Our Karie back.
    CHORUS: Solidarity forever!
    Solidarity forever!
    Solidarity forever!
    And we want Our Karie back!’

  13. I really don’t think that we should see Corbyn as being defenceless. Apart from his own integrity, he has the advice and support of Seumas Milne, Andrew Murray, Alex Nunns and more. I would like Karie to have remained in place because I jump the same way as she does… and I certainly don’t like the idea of her replacement being a friend of Jo Swinson and Alistair Campbell.

  14. My fear is that if we have a GE first then too many Leavers would vote Tory or Brexit Party and ignore Labour’s transformative policies.

    I want a Corbyn led Labour government more than anything.

    If we have a Referendum first, Remain could win and that should finish of the Tories in Leavers’ eyes as they’d have been unable to deliver the Brexit they promised. Then a GE would be focused on policies and Labour should romp homecwuth a good majority.

      1. I laugh drily every time I see the allegiance to a far right Tory key policy, unwanted by the majority of Labour support, flaunted as a mark of left radicalism.

    1. Hate to break it to you Wanda, but we actually have have had a Referendum on the EU and 17.4 Million people in June 2016 elected that the UK should leave the EU, something that has not been acted upon, despite nearly 40 months elapsing from that vote.

      Just as well we didn’t have Parliamentarians as competent as those of today sitting in Parliament in August 1939 for the fact is, we’d all be speaking German now.

      Mind you, its typical of EU fanatics to ensure people vote continually until they get their vote right, which ain’t democracy, its actually tyranny, a tyranny of the minority. Or, are you also one of these who maintain those who did not vote in the June 2016 EU Ref actually were supporters of the EU, in which case, please explain why they could not turn out to issue said support via the ballot box?

      1. Christopher Rogers, how do you know 17.4 million still support Brexit after being more aware of the consequences now than they were at the referendum?

      2. It was the most undemocratic referendum ever, won by lies and cheating. 50 million people did NOT vote to Leave. Whatever Brexit we have will make us poorer. Only very rich people like JRMogg will gain, but at our expense. The poor and the working class will be the hardest hit. It will be difficult for Labour to push through their transformative policies with a weakened economy due to loss of investments, increased costs, etc. Labour will again get the blame when the economy nose dives.
        There are NO benefits to Brexit. Most of the people who voted for it believed the lies they were told. Many have since changed their minds.

      3. ”It was the most undemocratic referendum ever, won by lies and cheating. 50 million people did NOT vote to Leave.”

        Err…I think you’ll find it was 16m before you go on about referenda being ‘won by lies and cheating’.

    2. Wanda
      The backlash from leavers in the subsequent GE under FPTP wouldwipe us out for a generation,
      See Scotland
      There are a lot of pillocks on here who either have their own agenda or are as thick as my doorstep

      1. Get real, Doug – Labour support since 2017 hasn’t exactly been a model of raging success as a testament to the organisation of the Party.

        As to Scotland – it illustrates the point vividly : the lack of opposition to the main plank of Tory policy has been a notable boost for the SNP.

      2. What about the backlash when Leavers realise they’ve been conned, that they won’t be getting the utopian Brexit they were promised and their lives will be even worse than before, etc?

    3. And if/when remain DOESN’T win a 2nd ref there’s gonna be a lot of disgruntled people thoroughly pissed off that labour chose to waste MORE time concentrating on frustrating brexit than on domestic issues.

      But of course, that wouldn’t be the fault of the likes of jack t, steve h and rh…would it?

      Of course not; it’d be all those ‘ knuckle-dragging, anti-democratic, neo-nazi fascists’ that voted leave not once – but TWICE.

  15. fu..kin hell sorry but that’s alI can say , we are on the brink of an election and all this insanity cracks open , and as usual it’s the bastard RW stop Corbyn brigade .
    I thought it was incredibly suspicious with the new replacement for Karie being praised by that twat Campbell .My bullshito meter was twitching like hell and I was right !!
    So in a calm but precision manner I wonder if or how we the membership can re-instate Karie and protect JC .
    Step up Momentum ??

  16. The main two arguments against Brexit are:
    a) It will cause a lot of harm to the lives of millions of people living in a UK/EU situation.
    b) It will lead to the break up of the UK and loss of Gibraltar.

  17. Do we have a gang of four mark 2 situation or a Brutus, Cassius et al situation. Who will play Owen or Brutus, depending on which it is, and who will be the Mark Anthony figure if it is the latter?

  18. Christopher Rogers

    IHRA and the sacrifice of Chris Williams proved to me the socialist left had lost the battle. McDonnell has the temperament and understanding of the council finance officer that he was and swallows Thatcher’s “We have no money but what we raise in taxes” completely. His rejection of Richard Murphy’s economics was a grave mistake.

    1. I’ve met John McDonnell. He understands perfectly how the economy really works but people have been conned for decades so aren’t ready to believe the truth just yet.

  19. Of course, one of the things that is happening now is a history of poor strategy and implementation coming home to roost. Not a great testament to those shaping it – thus the urgent need for change.

    Seems fairly obvious, despite confused Skwawks from various partisan quarters. 🙂

      1. Careful now…’Orange don’ and ‘Benny the jew’ will delcare this ‘New Jerusalem’ as the capital of israel.

        And we wouldn’t wanna start jack t off on another one, would we? 🙄

  20. Steve H in hope of a new Jerusalem?Youve got the.embassy in…. Jerusalem,now you Trump Maga hat obsessed supporters want thewhole city in your hands.. Regards

  21. I would also like no know what others are asking, who is in charge of Jeremy’s office & those appointed to it, surely he must be able to organise his own staff after all he is the leader of the Labour Party. If the CEO of the company I used to work for said jump (we didn’t argue) we asked how high, for one reason he was the head of the company same thing must surely apply to the leader of the Labour Party, If not why not?

      1. I know it’s a political party & you understood that I was using it as an example that the head of ANYTHING has the final say.

      2. … and the point I was making is that the comparison doesn’t transfer the model in an easy way because of the nature of the organisation.

        There is also a hidden question about the best way to manage change and manufacture consent in any organisation. Organisations do differ.

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