Determination to bypass Corbyn incompatible with supposed determination to stop no-deal Brexit
As the SKWAWKBOX has been warning for many months, laughably-termed ‘moderates’ have been planning to prevent a Corbyn-led Labour government by means of a so-called ‘government of national unity’ (GNU).
Those plans are now taking shape around an attempt to bypass the UK’s democracy when Parliament reconvenes after the summer recess – by ignoring proper process after the no-confidence vote that Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn is expected to table before the Brexit deadline at the end of October.
The latest incarnation of this ‘centrist’ plan is to ignore Corbyn’s inconvenient position as the democratically-elected leader of the Opposition and to install a ‘unity’ PM from the back benches if a Labour no-confidence motion succeeds:
The ‘i’ article’s claim that a GNU was floated by Ed Davey is, of course, incorrect – the idea has been pushed since at least last autumn.
The move is currently being talked up by the Establishment media to bolster its credibility and test public reaction – but as usual, the plotters can’t help but give away their real motivations.
The pretext for the attempted coup is that it’s the ‘only’ way to stop a no-deal Brexit – and that it can only gain enough support if a ‘unity’ figure is chosen as PM instead of Corbyn.
But the underlying reality – and fundamental dishonesty – of this ‘moderate’ posturing was perfectly captured by London academic John Rees, who pointed out the obvious flaw in the claimed motivation for the plan and its unmistakable significance:
If stopping a no-deal Brexit was the point, then those hoping to do so would not care which anti-no-deal leader became Prime Minister, as long as it achieved that end – and Corbyn, ever since the referendum result, has been firmly opposed to a no-deal Brexit and has acted many times to block one.
But if this ‘plan’ ‘depends’ on installing a different PM than Corbyn, then the reality is that it is nothing but the latest cover for the Establishment’s ‘anyone but Corbyn’ obsession. And those promoting it are clearly not fussy who it is, as long as it isn’t Labour’s democratically-elected leader:
Even John Major gets a mention – in spite of the obvious fact that a by-election could never be organised and completed in time to install him as ‘unity’ PM before the UK falls out of the EU.
Anyone, anything, anyhow, no matter how desperate or nonsensical. As it has always been, this is about stopping Corbyn at all costs.
Any Labour MP or figure who promotes this dishonest nonsense is either playing into the hands of the ‘never-ending coup’ – or actively supporting it.
With trigger ballots approaching rapidly, Labour members who want to remove MPs who impede the cause should be taking careful notes.
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I wonder if corbyn supporters should all leave the current Labour Party and form a socialist party leaving the moderate Labour to fade away or merge with the Lib Dems.
That is an entirely daft and doomed idea – a mirror image of the Chukup initiative – taking a ball to play on the deserted pitch with a sad bunch of self-abusers.
To those MPs considering this: You will not be forgiven, this would legitimise and unchain mass deselection and practically guarantee a Corbyn led Labour government in 2022.
You would have to face the selectorate and the electorate and it’s been proven enough times that media fawning does not provide a fig leaf opaque enough to hide dirty tricks. Enough of the general public has one thing in common: a respect for fair play and a willingness to put it’s thumb on the scales to rectify an injustice.
What am I saying? Bon voyage, get on with it, let me hold your coats while you guarantee a humiliating defeat for yourselves at the ballot box.
The craven arrogance and hypocrisy is stunning.
But Corbyn supporters are forming a Labour left wing democtratic socialist party.
Some non- socialists and political opportunists have left to merge with the Lib Dems.
The timid in pursuit of the poorly read and the unelectable.
We are sticking with what the membership card says democratic socialist Labour party!.. Expulsion should not be difficult for anyone trying to set up a coalition of other party’s and rejecting the leader of our own party?…. Maybe the vermin are going to save us deselecting them……Can anyone name one mp who have stood shoulder to shoulder with Chris Williamson?……??
It has been tried a hundred times before, what a daft notion.
Felicity.. Remember the Lib lab pact…..never again!
Haeavitreemam… We own the Labour party and we will expell traitors!We are the ones who are intouch with the heart and soul of the Labour party and we will win the battle.Capitalism is collapsing,and debt and destitution will soon be out of control.I have waited many years and we will finally see a democratic socialist government.Nows the time for taking control.. not bailing out and deserting the British public.?
“We own the Labour party”
What’s your conception of ‘we’?
… because my knowledge of the Party extends the concept way beyond those who simply agree with you … or me.
RH – “way beyond” – would that include all of the right wing of the PLP?
Most? Some? A few? Watson?
Who would you deselect?
You never state it plainly but the sense I get from many of your comments is that you’d prefer Corbyn on the back benches.
Again, David, you misinterpret quite wildly.
My point is not about the PLP debris that accumulated during the Blair years – which we all agree is a problem..
It’s about the members of the Party that I have known over all the years that I have been a member. They have represented, and do represent, quite a wide spectrum of opinion over a range of issues.
Some might be Tories in the wrong Party – but not the majority. Some may have irritated the f. out of me – but not the majority. That is the meaning of ‘broad church’ in my book … and it’s a necessary feature of any Party that hopes to gain sufficient support to hold power.
All that is doubly true when it comes to gleaning the necessary level of support from those who aren’t members.
The antiquated idea of a pioneering party narrowly defined by imagined ideological purity is a route to a ‘Life of Brian’ situation of Judaean rrelevancy. It doesn’t have a good record as a model, even if the alternative is messy, and involves a lot of internal argument.
… and I have absolutely no naivety about factional manoeuverings within the Party. Worn that T-shirt.
When someone preaches ‘f. the ‘broad church’, the translation is ‘f. getting into power – we prefer to whinge’. Imagine the Attlee government without the range of ideas and characters involved. It wouldn’t have existed. Yes – there are limits (particularly in the PLP) – but an overwhelming focus on defining good behaviour never made a successful family.
As to Corbyn (and note that I didn’t raise the issue of the leadership) – he’s not the point. Even though I’ve supported him at every stage, and reckon the flak he’s taken has been immense, I’m not into uncritical support.
Agreed, mostly.
By all means embrace wide-ranging views, but making your church so broad that it takes in people whose main intention is actually to subvert from within, well, what’s the point?
Breaking the grip of the MSM on otherwise right-thinking people would go a long way towards recovering our potential voter base, which is why (short of taking a few people out) blowing the necessary cash on establishing a daily Socialist newspaper should be seriously considered by the party.
Till then, a coalition pact with the SNP looks a smart move, if they can pull it off…
PS I’m not into uncritical support, either, though that might have been interpreted by some as me being a shill, since I’ve criticised his often-lame performances at PMQs!
Much of the PLP is actively working against the goal of a Labour government with Corbyn as leader.
That alone should disqualify them from membership.
Crucial to my ambitions for Labour but anathema to theirs is reversing the growth of wealth inequality and that’s where I draw the line.
No-one arguing for measures antagonistic to redistribution is a brother in my congregation.
This letter was in Monday’s Grauniad:
Paul Mason makes clear the near-inevitability of a snap general election and the need for a temporary alliance of the parties of the left and centre to beat Johnson and prevent the disaster of a no-deal Brexit. He concludes that Labour members should “rule nothing out”.
To this 90-year-old member, who remembers the bliss of 1945 and is beyond anger at the state we are now in, it is obvious that the elephant in the room is Jeremy Corbyn. Once such an inspiration, his name has become toxic – and the direction of change is irreversible.
To avoid a fatal split in the party, senior shadow cabinet members, such as Tom Watson, Emily Thornberry, Keir Starmer, Diane Abbott and John McDonnell, must now combine to convince Corbyn to stand down voluntarily and with his dignity intact. His successor must commit enthusiastically to what is now clearly in the best interests of the people of the United Kingdom: remaining in Europe. This is, I firmly believe, our only hope.
Dan Willis
Gillingham, Kent
Q: What’s the easiest way to get a letter printed in the Guardian?
A: Demand Corbyn’s resignation to facilitate a National Government!
Talk about The Extreme Centre!
I am sure timfrom, that you will remember EVERY Labour leader has received the same hostility as Corbyn – Gaitskell, Wilson, Callaghan, Foot, Kinnock, Brown and Milliband. I have of course missed out one Labour Leader, who was Labour in name only.
It wouldn’t matter even if we had the fragrant Ms Cooper, or Tom Watson, or any of those who sat on their hands whilst the LibDems and Tories gave severe austerity to the poor …… as soon as they got in the hot seat, they would receive EXACTLY the same torrid time that Corbyn gets, after a very brief honeymoon period. We need look no further back than the previous incumbent, whose Jewish heritage meant to the press that his father, in their oft-repeated view, “hated Britain.” That’s the same press that now accuse JC of AS, even though they cannot find any evidence of such.
In answer to Dan Willis, “the bliss of 1945” would never have seen the light of day had we been in the present EU back then.
The formation of the NHS would have constituted an illegal state aid distorting the common market in healthcare. Accordingly BUPA could have gone to court to stop its unlawful competition in its tracks.
The 1945 nationalisation of utilities would have been unlawful under the EU’s liberalisation directives.
The EU is a tool of the 1% economic elite and it will cling to its anti-socialism provisions in any deal with any leaving Member State. Only the reviled No Deal Brexit can make socialist public ownership lawful again.
Almost all EU rules and regs are designed to be got round, with a bit of creative accounting.
France was going to privatise La Poste, but a public outcry stopped that. Whatever the reason the French government gave to the EU, it was accepted.
I am also assured that the following is correct by a legal bod, involved in issues surrounding milk quota. It depends on definitions. The definition of milk is the the white stuff as it comes out of cows teats (UK), whilst in France it is the white stuff in plastic bottles on supermarket shelves.
The fact that the UK has more accountants than the combined 27 EU countries, has to mean that they have to find work. Being picky on EU law appears to be the raison d’etre of many, whilst all the other countries shrug their shoulders and get on with real life.
Danny
So close but so far,
Have you tried circumcising your self with a chainsaw, makes about as much sense as No Deal
We already have the green light from EU for Labour brino, honours result 52/48 and allows us to implement manifesto commitments
If we promise an indicative vote on Labour brino v Revoke in GE we will also double six usual suspects
Doug. That is your considered “reply” to Danny ? With a blatant foul anti-Semitic circumcision insult thrown into the mix ! You are simply a disgusting joke.
As Danny correctly states, Labour’s BRINO position would continue the UK’s subservience to all the Single Market Rules, from the continuation of Unlimited Labour Supply/Freedom of Movement , to the ban on selective state subsidies, to the clear prohibition on the creation of “public monopolies” , and subsidisation of same – ie, No re-nationalisation of the railways or power or water an a joined-up national basis – free from regular competitive tendering. You are simply lying that the EU would allow Labour to “honour its 2017 Manifesto commitments”. An outright lie. Of course the EU bureaucracy have “green lighted” a Labour BRINO deal – it would mean we never actually really left !
And then there is the small matter of the now inevitable collapse of the Labour vote in our traditional(Leave supporting) heartlands, and the lost opportunity to win those many Tory (Leave supporting) marginals – which means that with this current Remain/PV Labour policy we cannot win the next snap General Election – never mind fail to implement any radical economic policies when in office.. Labour has had its “Syriza Sellout Moment” already – BEFORE even getting into office
Crawl back under your dank little stone, Doug.
Note to Skwawkbox. Do you think it appropriate for a poster to make crude reference to “circumcision by chainsaw” to a Jewish poster ? I hope not !
And not a SINGLE other poster on here objected to this anti-Semitic slur !
jpenney.
I have no clue who you, Danny or Doug are in real life, or indeed whether any of you are actual people, and I have less than no interest in any of you and less than no respect for anyone posting under a fake name.
I have no clue whether any of you are Jewish and I don’t give a shit.
Had I referred in some way to circumcision in a post and been accused of antisemitism by some arsehole purporting to be Jewish I’d tell him or her to go fuck him or herself.
If you have personal knowledge of Doug and Danny and know for a fact that Doug knew Danny to be Jewish – not that that would necessarily make his comment antisemitic – you should put up or shut up, you spineless tosser.
Ha’penny knows little about a lot. The various traditions around circumcision is but the latest in the list.
Trying to turn it into an exclusive ‘jewish’, and thus ‘antisemitic’, issue just adds fakery to ignorance.
Although, at least, it clarifies beyond doubt what his motivations are. Banged to rights.
JPenney
How do you know I’m not Jewish or Muslim for that fact,
Methinks a blind man with a shitty stick could see I was addressing Danny’s point that only No Deal allows us to implement manifesto commitments
Should I have said that would be like cutting your nose off to spite your face !
In 1945 and beyond we were bankrupt, a busted flush. Look at what we achieved against the odds. It is clear that lies, smears, distortions and treachery have been thrown at us We are Socialists, we graft, we struggle then we are going to turn the tables and win. Why? Because we have to. Roll your sleeves up comrades, oh, and wear your wellies because there is going to be a lot of tears. X
Who is Dan Willis ,, a “Torrancer” perhaps or Twatson in disguise , you have to laugh at this crap you really do !!!
Yes, I saw that dreadful letter too.
I would like to make it clear that for.me my first loyalty is to Socialism… Jeremy Corbyn will make a great PM and has shown great tactics.Corbyn owes is position to the activists and supporters of the Labour party.So we are the Labour party,.. No More and no less..The rise of the socialism shows we. will, need to democratize our party to represent socialist principles and we cannot afford the idea of a broad church incorporating right wing destructive ideology!The writing has been on the wall so those that don’t get it,or too gutless to stand with Corbyn they must go! and remember that the door will remain closed to traitors to the people!
Whatever its purpose or proclaimed purpose, a party that nobody has ever voted for forming a government that nobody voted for is still a coup against democracy.
Which one is the Wildebeest ?
If Dan Willis really exists, he should be utterly ashamed of himself.
No sooner had I received an email from Skwawkbox about this, than I listened to the PM programme, or rather a cosy fireside chat between Evan Davis and Chris Leslie, which though officially about a Government of National Unity, was, yet again from the BBC, a mammoth attack on Jeremy Corbyn, and how he could not possibly be the PM in such a GNU.
One presumes (Evan Davis never asked, and Chris Leslie who is in a party that represents no-one but the MPs in it – those that didn’t leave almost immediately, that is, didn’t offer) that people such as Nicola Sturgeon would not be considered as PM either, even if the SNP wished to be part of this. Maybe Ms Swinson, who voted for Tory policies in the coalition far more eagerly than many Tory MPs?
So who do they suggest. MOST of the Labour “likely” folk are facing the serious possibility of not representing their CLP, never mind the electorate who voted them in on Corbyn’s manifesto. Most are likely to be kicked out of the party – including people such as Tom Watson.
Perhaps Ms Harman can treat us all to a pink minibus again, that really got the vote out in 2015!
Still, the next person for Evan’s fireside chat was an “expert” on food production and distribution, who stated that food rationing ended in the late 1950s. Well, it did if July 1954 can be considered “late 1950s.” I do wonder who calls themselves an “expert” these days.
The whole project is a load of insubstantial bollocks to fill column space.
That said, Labour could have done better than feed the notion with its weedy notion of a ‘compromise’ Brexit – an animal about as substantial as a unicorn.
It’s bleedin’ obvious – the way to head off the farcical progress of this joke nation down a dead end is for Labour to take a lead rather than muttering fence-up-the-arse nonsense. At the very least, that means being unequivocal about another referendum, and being honest about the hammering of all (except the 1%+) by the extreme neoliberal idea of Brexit. That’s the reality. Everything else is playtime fantasy.
It’s no good just continually moaning about the usual vile suspects whilst feeding them some of the best lines.
TWatson has been talking this up for a long time now.
I feel this is his long term plan and why he is still in the party.
i think he likes the idea of imperial purple….
i simply ask the question: when will the party remove these corrupt politicians? is there a plan in motion to wait until the snap election and then cut the cancer out without mercy because so many of these careerist labour MP’s have without doubt brought the party into disrepute in such a way that they would lose any court case fighting that decision.
its not about brexit ..it is about the election and the policies and laws that will come after it!
It really is down to the membership of Labour Parties up and down the country to deselect any standing MP that goes against the leadership of the party. It has been clear from day one that Jeremy was elected that these Neo-Liberal MPs would not give up until they removed the real choice of Labour members, and to allow them now to win before the next election takes place would be a disaster for the country.
I do also say, that Paul Mason is a big disappointment and I no longer trust him, he has always been wishy washy over his view of the economy, but could be forgiven for not being too outspoken, I now suspect that he is looking to be part of the new economic vision that these centrist would ply. Another version of the “third way”. Which is exactly what we don’t need and would fail like the last one.
Only a government Led by Jeremy Corbyn will reverse the disastrous path we are heading into. We need a strong character, with his integrity and foresight if we are to save this country, not a bunch of political opportunists that would sell their grandmothers for a shilling.
I agree with your sentiments Rotzeichen, it is only a Corbyn Govt that will sort out this shit show the the UK now is thanks to the Tories and Nu-Lab . Mason has “flipped” IMO very disappointing , no longer bother to read or take note of what he postulates and pontificates on.Just seems to be plugging his latest book ” clear blue bollocks ” or something ,, last time I buy him a coffee .
Rob I used to respect Mason,but he has like many others chosen sides.. Basically another sell out to nu Labour,and they think they will win,but if they do they will need a reality check when they check the subscription from the members,who will have walked out of a non socialist Labour party. The Labour party can only ever be Socialist or.nothing?
Joseph, I think nu Labourites would be happy for Alan Sugar etc to buy the Labour party back again, mitigating some of their losses from members exiting their sinking ship.
This could be a good outcome for Labour in the medium term.
The Blairites effectively self-deselect.
Brexit is cancelled.
Leavers can’t blame Corbyn for Brexit being cancelled.
The GNU will agree on virtually nothing else than cancelling Brexit and will soon collapse.
The focus then switches back to domestic policies, where Labour had a clear lead in the polls before Brexit became all consuming over the past couple of months.
Net result: a landslide win for Corbyn’s Labour.
I think we should be quite chilled about this.
Your optimism and fantasy projection is entirely based on you being an ignoramus , Ultraviolet. For the Leave-supporting Labour heartlands, issues like unlimited Labour Supply and re-nationalisation and state subsidies to assist regional economic development around key industries, are key demands that continued EU membership forbids. The idea that with Brexit (in any form whatsoever) being conveniently sabotaged by the political elite via procrastination and manoeuvre , UK politics will now return to some Brexit-issues-free la la land , is a fantasy only of smug Guardianista middle class liberals. The much more likely outcome of a political elite conspiracy to ignore the democratic 2016 Referendum result will be the rise of a mass radical Right Populist Party based on the narrative of betrayal and xenophobia – as has happened all across Europe over the last ten years, alongside the utter collapse of the traditional social democratic parties.
You just keep on hiding behind your Guardianista middle class wishful thinking and general ignorance, Ultraviolet, until reality eventually hits.
“Your optimism and fantasy projection is entirely based on you being an ignoramus”
What a charming fellow.
The fact that you then follow this up with the usual ignorant Lexiter bilge and a few more gratuitous insults comes as no surprise.
I don’t think the EU would block any of Corbyn’s proposed nationalisations. Few, if any, of the other countries were stupid enough to privatise stuff in the first place, so it is no skin off their nose. And if Brexit is avoided, the last thing they will want to do is throw fresh provocations our way to reignite the fires.
I always assumed that part of Corbyn’s plan for negotiations if he got to lead them was to get cast iron assurances that there would be no barriers erected to his policy programme. With that assurance, he would have shot the Lexiter fox, and any further referendum on any deal would almost certainly result in a convincing remain victory.
“Leave-supporting Labour heartlands”
You need to get out from under th duvet more often instead of dreaming La La Land.
In those ‘Leave’ heartlands, the Leave vote was Tory/UKIP, whilst the Laour vote was sustained by a notable predominance of Remainers.
Brexit is a Tory idea supported mostly by conservative voters. End of.
Ultraviolet
My understanding is the green light has been given to Labour Brino that allows us to implement manifesto commitments
not a nod and a wink to turning a blind eye to the demands of EU competition law, if we stay in
Doesn’t make sense, would almost certainly end up in front of the EU Beak
More than happy to be pointed in direction of anything you have to support your position
… and on the substantive issue of Brexit – the “fantasy projection” is that of the pseudo ‘workers’ like Ha’Penny who pretend that leavinfg the EU magically transforms the neoliberal framework of the global trading set-up, leaving the UK free to float in a socialist paradise of it’s own choosing.
The reality is, of course, even greater subservience to the foocus of neoliberal exploitation : the US. It’s touching that Ha’Penny and Mr Toad have such close alignment in their objectives.
Such utter crap could only come from the pen of one who thinks a reference to circimcision constitutes ‘antisemitism’.
penney, you’re a fool – when the pound is at parity with the Euro you and your Tory besties will bleat that it’s a boon to exporters – but tit for tat tariffs will hit both exports and imports and we’ll all pay more for everything.
And it’ll be all your fault.
By then the whole country will know exactly what to think of Brexit and the retards that initiated it, defended and preached it – and it won’t be that you’re the heroic freedom fighters you see in the mirror.
If no deal happens, within 6 months known brexiters will fear to walk the streets alone.
Maybe that’s why you hide behind your secret identities?
Oh – and the 27 – and every business both here and there – would far rather see the UK nationalise strategic industries of national importance that don’t compete with the 27’s than countenance tariff wars putting businesses everywhere out of business.
And don’t chant “EU Law” at me. Laws are made and remade by people and circumstance.
Xenophobia, as always, is the preserve of the kippertards, Tories and far right scum – they at least own their racism – while infants like you blame anyone but yourselves.
Pathetic.
You are spot on ultraviolet,The vermin may bail out in an orchestrated suicide pact,with many of the clowns doing tricks for the media!We need them to be gone and we can then rebuild the damage they have done to us the Labour party?
I guess the Neo-Liberal capitalists want a section of their first eleven (Tories) to combine with their second eleven (Lib Dems) plus their third eleven (Right Wing Labour Bllairites) to stop Left wing democratic socialism.
A year before the last GE at Momentum’s
ffirst Conference, I drew from history and said our best and only hope was to get JC out direct to the people – I was right then and and perhaps if the Blairite Labour MPs had not been publicly slagging JC off pteviously for a year we could have got over the line.
With the poverty and the impact on millions of lives and billions of lives globally, In the Brexit gamble I would honour the referendum result, would appeal to the 52% who voted leave (including in 66% of Labour constituencies) would pick up a percent of remain voters who respect democracy, and we could appeal to the millions of progressive human beings who want to end the suffering of millions here and billions around the World.
This is what I would do which would pull the rug from under Johnson and the Brexit Party.
But as old Public Image sang goes: I could be wrong, I could be right.
Come on, Bazza… you can’t seriously want to out-leave the leavers like Blair out-greedied the tories?
OK, so he won some elections by letting yuppie Londoners pretend to be socialists while they prospered.
I hated to watch Labour pissing away principle for power but in a way he did us a favour.
Now we have to work twice as hard to live him down while we take back our principles.
That might be a good thing for us I think.
David
The debate on how we change current casino capatalism is academic, because the answer is in or out nothing we do will have that effect,
Their isn’t going to be a global referendum on changing a financial system
There will be the mother of all crashes for the simple reason the last one never happened,
The reset button was not pressed and Brown and Obama rescued the creditors, instead of writing off debt they gave us QE/socialism for the 5%
Now if we have shifted to a more equitable system when the bubble pops, we will be better prepared,
Build it and they will come
I voted Leave purely to allow any future Labour government to implement manifesto commitments
I’ve seen nothing that shows me we can do that if we remain
Do you really think Christine Laguarde is going to end austerity in Europe, let’s see what happens in Italy, methinks they will go same way as Greece
Regards
Doug, it’s been obvious to me since the big bang that the best chance to defeat neoliberalism will always be at the next recession. I’ve commented on this more than once here.
Casino markets are the cause of financial instability but because they make money for the investors who keep the Tories alive with cash transfusions, neoliberalism is hard to defeat.
My approach would be to encourage long term investment over the quick buck imperative of the casino using preferential vs. punitive taxation until enforcement becomes possible.
Clearly the market is global and capital will go where tax+security are optimal – to avoid flight nations therefore need to agree a common tax regime and the EU is the most likely group of nations to be persuaded to begin the movement – they having already begun to implement a common tax avoidance directive.
As the benefits of the new stability accrue, further socialist regulatory measures will become impossible to dismiss out of hand – socialism will gain economic credibility with populations and real, working businesses throughout and beyond the EC.
That will open many doors.
SMCs already know they’d be better served by stable markets and access to secure long term investment – even giant corporations who manipulate markets themselves will find relief in the ability to forward plan – instead of constantly having to make short termist decisions to support their share prices.
Your last three sentences ignore successive US governments’ economic, cold and hot wars on Venezuela, Vietnam, Cuba and the USSR, and sanctions on many others.
Forget the special relationship, they’ll do whatever it takes to crush nascent socialism anywhere.
Neoliberalism was born in the UK and the US – not the EU.
This broken world is largely our fault. Membership of the EU is our only possible protection against a US led by anyone but a Sanders.
Whether we deserve their protection is a different question.
Adonis…Along with cleverly, proof that even their names tell lies.
Strange, how some will complain of MP’s doing as they please against their own preferences…Yet the very same people want MP’s to do as THEY please when it comes to ignoring a majority vote.
You lot shat, and continue to shit the bed. You have no right to complain now; seeing as you were warned repeatedly that your actions would only muddy the waters further and leave Corbyn with an even more arduous task of reaching No. 10.
Simple question, Toffee : point me to one piece of quantified electoral analysis that shows that the Party’s equivocation over Brexit has had *any* positive effect on polling figures.
Peterborough, GE2017, consistent lead in polls despite MSM and usual suspects shitfest,
Until you convince the 52% then the odds on another referendum will remain at 1/20
FPTP gives Laboura serious chance in next GE as only party honouring result
When it comes to GE it’s no longer a protest vote, far right cheap and nasties have concentrated minds and Labour chickens will return to roost
Regards
No, Doug. Not a “consistent lead in polls” at all. Which is my point. Support is at at a remarkably low ebb, and success – as in the narrow squeak in Peterborough is dependent on a split opposition – and, of course, the ability to mount the sort of canvassing seen there nationwide.
The Remain vote is the crucial one, and trusting that the slippage to the LibDems and Greens will be reversed in a GE.
I would prefer to secure that disillusioned vote.
‘Support is at at a remarkably low ebb,’
And we all know why…You were warned, but continued.
Now the job’s been made even harder thanks to you and your lot’s incessant whingeing.
Well played.
You took the centrist position regards the eu.
So, now a GNU’s mooted with only centrists being bandied as the PM.
It’s what YOU wanted so don’t pretend you’re against the idea or try to debate any leftist premise like you’re of the left because this gives YOU what YOU want; and don’t f***ing dare complain if it happens.
When there was no commitment to a 2nd ref/remain option (And for a very long time before) the party was ahead in the polls. Now you and your shower have prematurely ejaculated, and the electorate is showing it’s disgust.
Of course, despite repeated warnings of the same, it’s nothing to do with your lot collectively stamping your feet, is it?
Oh no, it’s the ‘boris bounce’ or a myriad of other feeble abjectly piss-poor, cop-out excuses.
Not like yours, eh, Werther?
Go on – warn me again.
And RH – point to “one piece of quantified electoral analysis” that shows which of the possible alternatives to what you call ‘equivocation’ would have had a different, positive effect.
One party’s policy change can result in a number of possible responses from the opposition and a number of different responses in return, none of which can be predicted with any certainty.
The number of possible divergent paths from any given point in history precludes any worthwile ‘quantified analysis’.
Werther?
Ooohhhhh….I get ya now…. Excuse me while I remain on the waiting list to have my ribs relocated through laughing so much…
This GNU business is remain’s bastard. You might’ve thought you had the best will in the world by sticking to it like shit to a blanket, but you WERE told it’s lead to a far harder task getting Corbyn to No.10.
It’s an inescapable fact that labour was way ahead but is now well down in the polls since you got your way with the 2nd ref/ remain option.
Just what the centrists like watson, starmer, cooper and the rest wanted. (But not what your lot intended, eh? Hmmmm…)
Doesn’t seem to have had much impact in taking votes from the libs or any other remain parties as far as I’ve seen.
I’ve seen the brexit party’s share increase exponentially, though. Outstrips the other remain party’s share combined. They’ll be taking more labour votes than labour’ll take from the rest, combined.
As predicted and repeatedly warned against. No use warning against it anymore – that horse has bolted.
You’ve made Corbyn’s task a lot harder as a result.
But of course, you ‘didn’t mean it’…
You were told something like this will probably happen if you didn’t support the then party line.
You refused to. Now there’s the gripe from the staunchest remainer on here about how ‘support is at a low ebb’ .
And now the same blert thinks that going after the minority vote of the lib dems is a far better prospect than trying to win back support (and take from) those who switched from labour to the brexit party and the disillusioned toerags – who both have bigger support for each individual party than the libs, greens plaid etc combined?
”Duhhh, hey George?! Ahh lahks muh bee-yins with the kitchup orn, George!” RH=Right Hillbilly
You reap what you sow. Unfortunately, the rest of us will possibly have to, too.
Nice one.
“”You were told something like this will probably happen if you didn’t support the then party line.”
Oh dear Sticky Toff Puddin’ – you are a comical fantasist. The way you mantufacture reality is touching … or perhaps a bit ‘touched’.
“It’s an inescapable fact that labour was way ahead ”
That’s an imaginative interpretation of the facts (in the sense of being a case of their inversion). I can give you the links to opticians if you need them.
Meanwhile, the contribution of your ilk is simply to pull the duvet further over the head and dream the fantasy, and blame everyone in sight for the failure – except those who insist on repeating the same mistakes.
Just for information – it’s the Greens and LibDems that are taking Labour votes, not the Brexit Party. And it’s the useless policy over Brexit that’s exacerbared the problem, and the misalignment with the majority of support.
“This GNU business is remain’s bastard. You might’ve thought you had the best will in the world by sticking to it like shit to a blanket, but you WERE told it’s lead [sic] to a far harder task getting Corbyn to No.10.”
“This gnu business” is just one more thread in the right’s increasingly desperate attempts to keep Corbyn out of No. 10 – this time by hijacking the ‘NO-to-a-no-deal/bad-deal’ intelligent approach taken by Jeremy from day one – the policy you decry and hard brexiters fear most because of its unchanging common sense and its increasing appeal.
Your vocabulary and phrasing is that of a parent fighting infants for dominance and failing, not a participant in a political discussion – and your dire “I told you so’s” are premature to say the least.
As for the rest of your defeatist diatribe – we’ll see what happens when purdah pulls the MSM’s teeth and we get into GE high gear.
It’ll be a pleasure to point out the back-of-an-envelope single issue manifestoes and wider policy vacuums of all the other parties.
“And RH – point to “one piece of quantified electoral analysis” that shows which of the possible alternatives to what you call ‘equivocation’ ”
Sure – the votes in the local elections that showed Labour shedding shedloads to Remain parties. It was obvious here.
Of course, you could argue that when push comes to shove, those votes will stay with Labour. My point is that turning safe votes into equivocal votes is, in itself, not a good strategy, and also that a clearer opposition to the Tories would – from way back – had a countervailing effect on the general decline in support encouraged by the MSM.
Fighting for the 50% share of the dim vote already pledged to the Tory part(ies) is a bit of a dumb move when leaving the other 50% to be picked over by the LibDems!
Mcniven – Defeatist diatribe?
Far from it. A ‘You were told you that you’d be making Corbyn’s jib more arduous’?
Indeed, yes. Own your wilful ignorance. The remainers have had their way, and is the path to No.10 any more attainable? No, it’s quite the opposite. That’s not down to me.
rh – Sticky toff puddin’? From a white rose twunt, as well.
Please stop. I’ve now got a hernia to add to my dislocated ribs.
About as amusing as fire at an orphanage, and twice as welcome.
But you’re still a conceited prick who insults everybody’s (far superior) intelligence as you obviously believe that everyone on here has the attention span of a gnat. We all know who stood where. We all know who had a large lead a few months back, it’s NOT fantasy – it’s common knowledge, you ignoranus.
.
Selectively misquoting people takes pathetic to a new level.
For clarity, RH is the one misquoting to sidestep answering the actual question – toffee’s just thcreaming as usual.
‘Thrcreaming’, am I, eh, mcniven?
Yes, I’m possibly doing that; but I’m hitting the mark.
Corbyn’s further away from No.10 than he was before the 2nd ref/remain option capitulation. If he wasn’t, you’d demonstrate just how so. You haven’t. Nor has the other whopper. Instead you’ve gone after me.
And that isn’t working, neither.
To claim that Brexit and LibDem successes in EU or local elections predict success in the next general election you then have to explain exactly how they differ from mid-term by-election protest votes and council votes (that are held to be of little predictive value) and explain why their share of the vote won’t collapse like UKIP’s did once the referendum was won.
Explain why you believe they’ll affect a GE in any major way now that brexit’s guaranteed. A done deal according to Johnson.
Polls are quoted when they’re good and decried when they’re bad – by all sides.
I take little notice of them either way.
David – who ‘misquoting’ what?
“To claim that Brexit and LibDem successes in EU or local elections predict success in the next general election”
… I did make the point :
“Of course, you could argue that when push comes to shove, those votes will stay with Labour.”
So I’m not in disagreement with you.
So – to get to the essence rather than pretend to future knowledge, what I’m saying is in summary
– that the current electoral sitiuation of the Party is pretty dire
– that its ambiguity on the key Brexit issue has turned a major slice of pretty certain votes needed to win into questioning votes.
– that the strategic ambiguity of policy has not halted the steady decline in Labour voting intentions
– that to blame the wishes of the majority of the Party and its voters (who do not support Brexit) for this state of affairs is ludicrous.
– that chasing the conservative Leave vote is a futile wild goose chase when it’s the Remain vote that more significant.
I’m not talking about certainty – just that a change of strategy is indicated when the current one has not shown positive results.
“I’m not talking about certainty – just that a change of strategy is indicated when the current one has not shown positive results.”
I asked you to point to an alternative strategy for which “quantified analysis” existed indicating that it even MIGHT show MORE positive results. You chose to avoid doing that.
I’ll save you the trouble – there isn’t one.
I’m too bored to repeat the reasoning.
government of national is a recurring theme with centrists 5
Diagones… Nothing centrist about that right wing destructive scu!?
What a bunch of despicable, conniving, self serving, bastards these MPs are, with some, but very very few, honourable exceptions! Never mind democracy let’s all play Parliamentary games using convoluted rules, archaic customs and downright skullduggery (for ain’t we the clever ones because we can continue to screw the electorate whilst also continuing to pick up £75000 a year with tremendous perks) yay! Time, I think for us to actually not just rely on putting an X on a bit of paper but to get on the streets and take our democracy back into our hands! Or is that all a bit too dangerous? If so, better to be dangerous than to allow these cretins to continue to rule us on the Queens behalf who, it seems, will sign off on any law as long as it keeps us, the many, in our place and the stinking rich sucking us dry whilst Parliament plays silly games!👿
Well said mr Hagger,especially the farcical system of a senile old Tory lady appointing our leaders of a country starved of democracy and pretending that we are fit to dictate to Venezuela and cuba and many others regarding democracy in the 21st century… The jokes on us?
Indeed, Tony.
The likes of the establishment (And ‘centrist’ remainer) fanatics would rather the status quo than see the common ‘scum’ like me have my ha’porth worth.
They would rather live with layer upon layer of archaic bureaucracy and anachronistic, rule – even a return to serfdom – than see my lot made any easier.
They can all f**king well burn, for me.