Re-run of post-2016 referendum ‘chicken coup’ taking shape – as deluded and misleading as it was three years ago. But it will spit in face of UK’s suffering millions
Comment
Another attempted centrist coup – as flagged weeks ago by the SKWAWKBOX – is gathering form and substance. In almost all respects, it is shaping up to be a re-run of the 2016 ‘chicken coup’ – and it will be just as inexcusable.
2016 re-run
As in 2016, the plan is to use Brexit and a referendum as the fulcrum of an attempt to lever Jeremy Corbyn out of the Labour leadership – and, as in 2016, there is a concerted effort underway to create a narrative pinning the blame on Jeremy Corbyn for problems in fact created, even constructed, by the Labour leader’s opponents.
In 2016, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn travelled the length and breadth of the country during the referendum campaign, while Labour’s official campaign lead, along with many of Corbyn’s ‘centrist’ Labour critics, was almost invisible.
Nonetheless, the Labour right – with the eager help of the ‘mainstream’ media – constructed a narrative that Corbyn had not tried hard enough. The referendum was the result of Tory attempts to manage internal Tory party problems; the remain campaign was characterised by arrogance and scaremongering – but according to the narrative, the result was Corbyn’s fault.
Warmed-up narrative
The warmed-up 2019 version of this dishonest narrative is that Labour is weak because Corbyn has not promised another referendum – even though all Labour’s significant losses in this month’s local elections were in leave-voting areas. This narrative is pushed, with loud calls for such a commitment and even claims that it is Labour policy, even though – and likely because – it allows Labour’s external enemies to claim Labour is trying to ‘block Brexit’.
And the liberal left is fuelling the narrative and providing cover for the ‘usual suspects’ by allowing their obsession with preventing Brexit to amplify and reinforce the propaganda of Blairite ‘old hands’ who have been using Brexit and a so-called “people’s vote” to estrange Labour from its working-class roots.
Regardless of intent, the decision to help drive a wedge between the Labour Party and its instinctive voters in the north and Wales is appalling.
The plan
The intent of those determined to engineer another coup attempt is to distance Labour from its leave-supporting base, while trying to drive its remain-leaning supporters to other parties – explicitly so in the case of the dire Margaret Hodge. A bad result in this week’s European Parliament elections will then be pinned on Corbyn’s ‘failure’ to commit to a new referendum, in the hope that remain-voting members will back a leadership challenge.
Fortunately, the rest of the left is awake to the situation and increasingly so. Labour chair Ian Lavery MP wrote passionately about the dangers of the situation in an article featured on this blog this morning. He wrote:
But for too many across our movement Brexit has become yet another stick with which to beat Jeremy Corbyn. MP’s suggesting his leadership is in peril if he does not back a second referendum is simply nonsense and MP’s suggesting Labour voters should back other parties is simply a disgrace.
A senior Shadow Cabinet member also told the SKWAWKBOX:
There’s no question [the vocal support by Labour MPs and front-benchers is] hurting us and damaging voter trust – and it’s going to hand Johnson and Farage an early Christmas present.
Other very senior Labour sources told the SKWAWKBOX that they were “appalled” at the contribution of Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer and deputy leader Tom Watson in pushing a new referendum at every media opportunity.
But it’s not just Labour veterans who recognise what’s happening. Former Corbyn adviser Steve Howell has pointed to an excellent new article by Young Labour’s union link officer Theo Freedman:
Others put it more pithily:
Collective delusion
The latest attempt appears to be driven by a belief – and no doubt for some a hope – that Brexit is separating Corbyn from his support among Labour members. This is where some on the liberal left are now amplifying the message.
Clive Lewis, the usually-excellent Norwich South MP, has long been vocal in his calls for a new referendum, even though 44% of Norwich residents voted to leave the EU. Lewis has written an article claiming that Corbyn’s leadership is ‘in peril’ – and that Brexit is the ‘wedge’ issue separating him from members:
You can only drive a wedge so far between yourself and the people who put you in that position before your opponents start looking at their options
Lewis’ article was amplified by left commentator Paul Mason. Mason also made an astonishing response to Howell’s tweet of Theo Freedman’s warning that every call by a high-profile Labour activist endangers the prospect of a Labour government:
It’s hard to look at that response – unqualified and unexplained – and not see a reckless disregard for the desperate need of millions for a Labour government – and for the six million or so Labour voters in 2017 who are estimated to have supported leave in 2016.
Miscalculation
The common narrative among centrists with a fixation on Brexit is that most Labour members want a new referendum. This is disputed and has never been put to the test – but even if it is true, those relying on it as a ‘wedge issue’ to challenge the Corbyn leadership have made a serious error:
It’s not the number of members who want it, but where it ranks in their priorities – how much they want it relative to other things.
This is a common – and often deliberate – error in the use of other polls by commentators, usually to attack Labour or its leader. Millions might want a bagel for breakfast – but if you told them the price of it would be the loss of something they value highly, most will not opt for the bagel.
So it is with Corbyn supporters who want another referendum or to remain in the EU. They might prefer those options in an ideal world – but most know that a Corbyn-led Labour government is far more important for the millions suffering in this country under Tory government. After all, EU membership has not protected those millions from the predations and degradations of the Tories and, for five years, their LibDem accomplices.
Most Labour members – at least most of the large majority that have supported Corbyn in two leadership elections in three and a half years – are aware enough of the complexities and difficulties of the Brexit situation to take an adult view of the challenge Corbyn continues to face in representing the ‘many’ on both sides of the issue.
Most are also just as aware, or more so, of the desperate hardship faced by millions and the damage being done to our national treasures such as the NHS to know that a Corbyn government is not only far more important, but urgently so.
Many would probably vote leave if there was another referendum, out of respect for democracy and out of horror at the privileged elites who have focused on Brexit instead of the change of government so deperately needed.
Most will therefore not vote for a centrist or soft-left leadership challenger because of the Brexit issue, whatever their preference on Brexit or a public vote.
Having a party in government under a leader that will actually change the country for the better is simply far too important – and Corbyn’s supporters recognise that, as will the majority of working-class leave voters if the party respects them and talks to them as equals.
Those hoping to dislodge Corbyn as leader have badly miscalculated and are nowhere near as clever or subtle as they think – and any left-wingers who are helping their narrative, even if coincidentally, need a wake-up call.
Recklessness
The challenge to Corbyn’s leadership will fail – but the mere attempt will risk prolonging the misery of the millions of people facing hunger, poverty, degradation and hopelessness under the Tories.
Any challenge will give the Tories a distraction while they bed in a new leader after May and push on toward a hard-Brexit and exploiting the opportunities they expect afterward. It will allow the Tory-friendly ‘mainstream’ media an opportunity to con the country even further that the absence of a deal is Labour’s fault, rather than the responsibility of the true Tory culprits – and of the remain-obsessives who distracted the people from what is really being done to them.
Even if the challenge is aborted, the vocal obsession with a new public vote can only drive the Labour Party away from many of its working-class supporters – and from those it needs to win over to remove the Tories from government.
When over four million of our children are in poverty, a majority of people in the worst hardship are working, the Tory plan for dismantling our NHS is in its end stages and education, housing and security are an unattainable dream for so many, such action by any who claim to be Labour is unforgivable.
Any commentator or activist who cares about the many – or even just about how s/he personally will be judged by history – needs to focus on what really matters: a new, better, fairer country, not membership of a club that hasn’t prevented the trashing of the UK and the appalling treatment of our people by the Tories.
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Excellent article. I’ve been waiting a long time for someone to articulate the true feeling of members I’ve spoken to and the incredible amount of damage that the fake left have inflicted on the party…..and the damage they are quite prepared to inflict on the working class in particular, all for voting the ‘wrong way’ in the referendum.
” the damage they are quite prepared to inflict on the working class”
By ‘they’ you must mean the Lexiteer echo of the Blessed Treez?? – she was saying exactly the same as them about another vote today in the HoC.
Great company to keep : the biggest international joke in recent parliamentary history.
In what was no doubt a complete coincidence, all the MSM channels on Saturday prioritised Keir Starmer on the campaign trail pushing the PV over Corbyn’s speech in Bootle, giving the observant a heads-up as to what was under way.
Starmer, Watson, Hodge & co need removing NOW and quite frankly I don’t care which rule the party bends or breaks to do it.
Otherwise all will have been for naught…
And let’s not forget Emily Thornberry’s identical ( pre-emptive Leadership bid marker) pro PV opportunist statements a short while ago too. Good article from Skwawkbox. Unfortunately , the now increasingly used term “Liberal Left” for the likes of the increasingly politically strange Paul Mason, or Clive Lewis , etc, is seriously misleading. It is understandable that the term is used – to differentiate these people in our Labour Party from the much smaller Socialist Left – but in fact their total inability to see beyond the dynamics of the capitalist market place – and general acceptance of the globalist neoliberal status quo – minus a little bit of tweaking here and there, means they are actually merely “Left liberals” – differing only in the minor details of their desired minor reform agenda from the Liberal Democrats .
That so many of our activist membership’s avowed Party “Corbynistas” well outside of the privileged ranks middle class Guardianista celebrity journalists like Mason and Owen Jones, also have no grounding in even basic socialist politics at all , and are easy prey for the pro EU drivel from the Labour Right, is one of the key triumphs of the last thirty years of neoliberal ideological hegemony. If people cannot even envisage a rational democratic socialist world beyond the clutches of the capitalist marketplace , they can never successfully even seriously oppose and radically reform it , never mind overthrow it.
timfrom – I agree with you, although I am not for breaking rules, that sets a dangerous precedent going forward – but it is obvious that Starmer, Watson and their co-conspirators NEED TO GO. I think there is urgent need of a reshuffle in the Shadow Cabinet. I also think the vast majority of members will remain in the Party, especially if they are Corbyn supporters. I also think, and very much hope that when it comes to a general election people put their differences with Labour on the issue of Brexit aside, and prioritise the dismantling of our democracy by the Tories, and their cruel unnecessary policies which have been responsible for murdering thousands of the most vulnerable people in the country. It is urgent that people vote Labour, because we cannot allow right wingers to take control of the country and allow a no deal Brexit to happen and to pursue their vicious and murderous policies.
But nothing will happen, as it never does.
And as much as I like Jezza, I will not be voting for Labour until they come out as a leave party (and not that silly six tests baloney either)
It’s nothing to do with Brexit, it’s the US/Zionist lobby. They will stop at nothing to protect their cash cow.
How right you were 😪
Still theres the rodents trying to sell us down the river…
I’ve never been taken in by lewis. Had my suspicions about him for a while. (thornberry, gwynne and healey from the shadow cabinet are on my watchlist, too)
He is not ‘usually excellent’ , he is ‘sometimes capable’.
And mason’s alway’s been a wagon-jumping opportunist masquerading as some sort of wannabe WCH…Might have his northern twang but he’s no fucking socialist.
Just like those insufferable feckers on here whining about their precious ‘peevee’. Some things you’ve just gotta let go of….But you shower of shite won’t. Like an arsonist pouring petrol on the fire, you KNOW you’re makin it worse for everyone – but you’re doing so anyway because you want it YOUR WAY and fuck the rest.
That’s YOUR ‘socialism’.
AFAIC they can burn with the rest of the wretched self-serving scumbags if the shithouse trick is attempted again. They’ll be every bit as complacent as the plotters in my book. And if any violence is begot as a result we know where the blame lies….
Yes, debated him at Conference about freedom of movement and how it causes economic conditions in Eastern Europe which benefit and embolden the far right. He had nothing, he’s an empty vessel, just not politically aware. I don’t even know what he is doing in politics to be honest. Another greasy pole climber.
And don’t forget Angela Raynor – easily seduced by a huge raft of flattering articles across the MSM over the last year or so, to pump out centrist waffle on too many occasions. The fact is Jeremy and his tiny support team of socialists in the PLP are hugely outnumbered by people totally without any socialist politics of even a mildly traditional social democratic kind . If they sense that significant cohorts of the more middle class activist Membership is turning against Jeremy because of the Brexit/PV, “policy wedge” , their half-hearted loyalty up till now will melt away. Certainly Momentum’s politics-lite Left Liberal ranks cannot be counted on to defend Jeremy politically. Thirty years of careful parachuting in of self-interested careerist MP’s into Labour safe seats has resulted in a PLP in which Jeremy has had to fill his Shadow Cabinet with people he simply cannot rely on – and in quite a few cases , of very poor competency too. The suspension of Chris Williamson on trumped up charges was yet another pre-emptive pre Coup 2 manoeuvre to thin out Jeremy’s already thin PLP support base.
Momentum is an Israeli construct.
Talked the talk just enough to get a foothold and then showed it’s true colours.
Right again
Angela raynor 2020
Fight fire with fire my friend.
They need you more than you need them.
NVLA, the (current) Israeli government certainly wants Corbyn out, the Palestinians to be abandoned to their fate and the BDS to disappear. Those are givens.
What advantage to Netanyahu would there be though in “constructing” a mass membership activist organisation of Corbyn supporters?
The only remote possibility I see would be that it was hoped to taint Corbyn with a Militant type slur.
Undeniably and completely predictably, it’s had the opposite effect – the campaigning work of Momentum has organised a large number of his supporters and given them a platform.
Why would Israel do that?
Lansman may not be as pro-Corbyn as the membership or as he perhaps once was – I too doubt his goodwill – but I think “Israeli construct” takes criticism too far.
Not sure it’s defamatory, but not sure it’s not.
It does however portray the whole Momentum membership as Israeli dupes and Lansman as – what – an Israeli spy like Masot but even more incompetent?
Most of us here will have watched “The Lobby” so none of us are naïve concerning Israel’s intentions.
https://azvsas.blogspot.com/2019/01/corbynism-without-corbyn-lansmans-new.html?m=1
Without deception, a nation falls
By way of deception, thou shalt do war
Something seriously doesn’t add up with Lansman and Momentum. From their unwillingness to call out Israeli crimes, through hijacking the group (leaving members with no democratic choice).
So much bile and self righteousness here. Its Life of Brian without the laughs. Meanwhile, I talk to people who voted for Corbyn in 2017 but aren’t going to any more because they see him as a brexiter.
Young people wanted to remain, far more than older people. Their support and activism is what is most likely to get us into and keep us in power. We seem determined to desert them.
Please, hardline lexiters, full of telling us who is slime, trolls, not true socialists, reread your posts here. Would anyone not committed to ‘the true faith’ in the way you say you are be convinced or attracted to what you say? Or would they be repelled and walk away?
” Its Life of Brian without the laughs.”
Yep – indeed Simon. It’s playground politics that has no realistic programme for creating the critical electoral mass required for actual change.
Instead we have assertions about a fictional Labour Party and a fictional base of support. It’s a game of cowboys and indians with about as much relationship to reality as the Hollywood version of US history.
…Please, hardline lexiters, full of telling us who is slime, trolls, not true socialists, reread your posts here. Would anyone not committed to ‘the true faith’ in the way you say you are be convinced or attracted to what you say? Or would they be repelled and walk away?
I walked away. Its just easier. Anyone unwilling to accept a democratic vote isn’t going to be persuaded by me talking to them.
They know best.
And I really don’t care about kids wanting to remain. They are no more or less than anyone else. If they are that bothered, then campaign to re-enter after we have left. Won’t somebody think of the children is crap.
NVLA, it makes electoral sense to ‘think of the children’ (especially when we’re holding the gun to our own head☺). They’re going to be around to vote for much longer than the older voters that make up the leave constituency.
And it equally makes sense to listen to the older generation.
I’m not holding a gun to my head…how preposterous. Am I on CiF at the guardian?!?!
Children and young adults are regularly exploited due to their naivety. From fighting old men’s wars, through to changing political decisions.
Are you one of these people who relishes older folks dying and younger ones reaching a voting age in the possibility of reversing the referendum result?
NVLA, sorry, thought you were quoting ‘Blazing Saddles’ so I thought I’d reference the same scene, the one where the new black sheriff holds a gun to his head to escape the lynch mob.
As for the other points, the reseach about youth voting suggests it was indirectly connected. The consistent pointer for remain voters was level of education – and more people go to university these days.
Pragmatically, we should be trying to keep these voters for the long term.
And I don’t relish people dying, but the demographic difference is important and should not be ignored. As matters stand the 2016 vote is 3 years out of date and becoming less and less authoritative.
Finally, if we leave the EU now we’ll never be able to get back in on the same favourable terms. We burn our boats if we leave.
Never voting labour again 22/05/2019 at 1:00 pm · ·
“And it equally makes sense to listen to the older generation………….
………Are you one of these people who relishes older folks dying and younger ones reaching a voting age in the possibility of reversing the referendum result?”
It is undeniable that the demographics have changed since 2016 so to attempt to denigrate someone for simply pointing this out is a bit low.
Old people die and teenagers grow up that’s life and it is bound to change voting patterns. It is a legitimate area for discussion.
Ahh Blazing Saddles. What a film. Wouldn’t be made today…
The Simpsons also has a running gag with the vicars wife claiming it at every possible opportunity
Twitter. @sonofr
Something to cheer you up on this chilling evening.
Since June 2018 1.5 million youth become eligible for voting.
Old brexiteers are dying at a rate of 8000 a month
As for education, I have twins. They couldn’t afford uni. Despite being extremely intelligent. They are both commited leavers, as is my 20 year old step son (he’s pissed at being left behind whilst he watches other fast track to greater things).
As someone who lives in a London borough numbered among the poorest in the country I am sad to read the comments in the article by Rachael. Real people don’t only live in one region nor are all Londoners “mega rich.” That sort of silly divisiveness does none of us any favours.
Real people don’t only live in one region nor are all Londoners “mega rich.”
That’s entirely correct. Nevertheless, Jim, it IS these ‘mega-rich Londonista eltitists’ telling us exactly that.
Granted, there’s plenty from north of the Watford gap, too. Perhaps not so rich; but just as elitist.
Jim – the cartoon left don’t live in the real world. They sit gawping at big-screen images of an imaginary society whilst chewing political pop-corn.
Thus the fantasies around anyone who disagrees with them as being ‘rich’, or (horror! horror!) ‘middle class’ (actually half the nation) or ‘elite’.
Yes, this has been falling into place for some time!
More self pitying drivel from Skwawky. It seems that ‘centrists’ have now become the liberal left.
JC was asked if he would vote to remain in another vote. He said I campaigned for Remain and I voted Remain. The trajectory is heading inexorably towards another vote and when Jeremy campaigns again to Remain, will Skwawky disown him?
From the Independent (which is anything but) this week: “Asked if he would vote Remain in a new referendum, Mr Corbyn told Sky News’s Sophy Ridge on Sunday: “It depends what the choice is in front of us. If we’ve got a good deal in which we can have a dynamic relationship with Europe … then that might be a good way forward that unites the country.”
I certainly don’t see anything ‘inexorable’ in Mr Corbyn’s statement, particularly when Labour’s economic policy clashes with European law.
Linda, please give me an example of where Labour’s economic policy clashes with EU law.
Jack T 21/05/2019 at 9:51 pm
Are you allowed to ask questions like that? 😉
SteveH I could ask the Leavers any number of questions like that and they will struggle.
Such as …..
In what way have we lost our sovereignty?
Which laws were forced upon us?
Who are the unelected bureaucrats who control us?
What percentage of our economy depends upon Europe?
What percentage of Europe’s economy depends upon us?
Who need who the most?
How many countries trade under WTO rules?
etc etc.
Linda, please feel free to answer.
1) EU army
2) EU commission (feel free to explain how the relationship between the EU commission and parliament actually works)
3) 13.4%
4) Who cares?
5) Moot question. Both sides need each other. Miele and Audi aren’t going to stop shipping their products. Nor will the French/Italians stop selling us their wines. Trade will continue.
6) 164 members. They represented 96.4 of global trade in 2007
Etc etc
NVLA no wonder you want to leave the EU you haven’t a clue how it works. Not one of your answers makes any sense.
I will just pick one as an example. Please give me some evidence to show that only 13.4% of our economy depends upon Europe.
Although fewer of our exports are now going to other EU countries, these exports are still just as important to our economy.
The £274 billion exports of goods and services to other EU countries were worth 13.4% of the value of the British economy in 2017. It’s been at around 12-15% over the past decade.
Quite what this has to do with how the EU works is beyond me…
Seems you don’t know anything either, because you’d have smugly put me straight if you did.
NVLA Here is my smug reply
House of Commons Library
Statistics on UK-EU trade:
“The EU, taken as a whole is the UK’s largest trading partner. In 2017, UK exports to the EU were £274 billion (44% of all UK exports). UK imports from the EU were £341 billion (53% of all UK imports).”
In fact when trade with other nations, which we do via agreements negotiated by the EU, is taken into account the 44% figure above rises to 60%
And to answer two of my other questions to you, the value of trade from the EU to the UK is 16% therefore we need them more than they need us.
Spot on Steve, thank you. As for Mason, the hare’s been out the trap for a while. He thought that overthrowing Gaddafi was a good idea, went head over heels for Campbell’s PV and recently came up with some drivel about Brexit being organised by Putin in order to undermine NATO. The bloke’s a total arse. Things are coming to a head and if the PLP as represented by Watson, Starmer & friends aren’t seen off this time we might not get another chance.
You didn’t have a chance to begin with.
Want to win? Start again.
Labour was powerful once. The establishment/cartel/whatever saw this, and neutered it. Its been compromised ever since.
Momentum’s rapid rise shows that we can do it. Tories are currently terrified of a new GE, so things are on our side to reform and reunite.
Desperate times call for desperate measures
Yes, Labre. Mason’s a real disappointment. Just when you think he’s said something that made sense, he then follows it up with bullshit direct from the Atlantic Council!
Jeremy will be safe as long as he keeps his promise to follow the wishes of the majority of members.
Members who all voted him into office in the belief that unlike other politicians he could be trusted to keep his word..
So you think the opinions of a few hundred thousand Labour members are more important that 17,400,000 votes?
You seem to think you are superior to other people. You sound like a bit of a fascist to be honest.
Everybody’s vote counts equally, yours is worth no more than anyone else’s.
Labour is a democratic socialist party of equality. You aren’t a socialist or a democrat and you think you are better than other people. What the hell are you doing in the Labour Party?
The 17.4 million will have absolutely bugger all impact on any leadership election in the Labour party.
If there is another coup the only people who decide JC’s fate will be Labour party members (not the electorate as a whole).
I am simply pointing out the blindingly obvious that as long as JC doesn’t betray the trust of the majority of the members then he is safe. To argue otherwise would be perverse.
”as long as JC doesn’t betray the trust of the majority of the members then he is safe.”
Ah, so in essence, it’s a gun to Corbyn’s head?
That what you’re telling us steve? Coulda fooled me otherwise…
The Toffee (597) 21/05/2019 at 5:46 pm
You do have an unfortunate habit of distorting what others have said. I am saying exactly what I said, any interpretation you choose to put on what I said is entirely your own and nothing to do with me.
steve, it’s there in black& white. YOUR words, OWN them.
‘that as long as JC doesn’t betray the trust of the majority of the members then he is safe.’
Possesses a threaening undertone; I gotta say you’re sounding pretty ‘gangsta’ there, lad.
You’re telling…sorry ‘advising’ him to betray the trust of the wider electorate to keep the membership sweet, or it’ll be the end of him.
…’You’ being yourself and the rest of the remainers in the party.
What next? You gonna make Corbyn an offer he can’t refuse?
The Toffee (597) 21/05/2019 at 6:29 pm
I have owned my words, I’m not making any threats, issuing any ultimatums or putting the gun to anyone’s head. I am simply stating the fact that people don’t tend to vote for someone who they feel has betrayed their trust, particularly when that person was elected on the USP that they can be trusted. If you think that the members will vote for someone (anyone) that they mistrust then make your case.
Ask yourself – Why would you vote for someone that you can’t trust?
You could also have a say if you joined the Labour Party or an affiliated Trade Union.
”The 17.4 million will have absolutely bugger all impact on any leadership election in the Labour party.”
Maybe.
But I’ll remind you that the 17.4 million will have PLENTY of impact to ELECT the labour party to lead the country.
Which do you want – because it’s certain you’re not having both.
Oh, why bother asking? We can already deduce the answer. from you making the case for a 2nd ref more than you ever do a labour govt.
That’s telling enough.
I have owned my words, I’m not making any threats, issuing any ultimatums or putting the gun to anyone’s head. I am simply stating the fact that people don’t tend to vote for someone who they feel has betrayed their trust, particularly when that person was elected on the USP that they can be trusted. If you think that the members will vote for someone (anyone) that they mistrust then make your case.
OK, so Corbyn rejects outright, the call for a 2nd ref. The 83% members (You’re one of them) feel betrayed and call for leadership election.
All those ‘Love Corbyn Hate Brexit’ gonna forgive him for his ‘betrayal’, after they’ve called for an election, are they?
And more to the point, are YOU?
The Toffee (597) 21/05/2019 at 7:14 pm · ·
OK, so Corbyn rejects outright, the call for a 2nd ref. The 83% members (You’re one of them) feel betrayed and call for leadership election.
The only way to force a leadership election is for another MP to challenge JC for his post (the same applies to Tom Watson) Are you acknowledging that JC is apparently out of step with the membership on a CV.
All those ‘Love Corbyn Hate Brexit’ gonna forgive him for his ‘betrayal’, after they’ve called for an election, are they?
I don’t know and neither do you, the problem would only occur if the majority of the party’s membership and various affiliate members felt they couldn’t trust him. As it is OMOV they will all make up their own minds on this.
And more to the point, are YOU?
Although I have voted on both occasions for JC I can’t give you an answer to that at the moment. I will make up my mind on the basis of the circumstances as I see them at the time, if and when the occasion arises. I’m not into mixing ‘religious like devotion’ with politics.
Steve, please try to be less pompous, you are distracting from the argument
Paul 21/05/2019 at 8:48 pm
Perhaps if you had a cogent argument against what I have said then you would attack the message rather than the messenger.
”Are you acknowledging that JC is apparently out of step with the membership on a CV.”
Oh…It’s a confirmatory vote, and not a 2nd ref now? Whatever you want to call it in your next sentence. according to you, he is, isn’t he? You’ve had the difference between them pointed out to you and i clearly stated 2nd ref noT CV, so it’s time to stop with your obfuscation and distraction.
”I don’t know and neither do you”.
*Yawns* Another attempt to swerve the question.
I admit I don’t know and never claimed to know, hence me asking. However. you’re the one on the spot as the question relates to your side of the argument – not mine. I didn’t make any insinuation about corbyn’s future. .
”I can’t give you an answer to that at the moment. I will make up my mind on the basis of the circumstances as I see them at the time, if and when the occasion arises”
You CAN’T give me an answer to a scenario painted for you? –
One that you’re making thinly veiled insinuations where it could well be the case?
https://skwawkbox.org/2019/05/21/narrative-for-next-labour-coup-attempt-underway-it-will-fail-but-risks-damaging-millions/#comment-106370
Yet you’re telling everyone where I’m wrong all the time but at least I have my mind set for eventualities and won’t make up my mind on an ‘ad hoc’ basis.
Is your support for Corbyn’s brand of politics ‘Ad hoc’ then?
The Toffee (597) 22/05/2019 at 7:50 am
You need help
Leave or remain, I’ll be no better or worse off. I’m already at the bottom of the shitheap anyway. Only a socialist Govt will see my lot improve.
What I object to, is these utter knobheads on here what think they’re in the same boat as me; telling me their plight is the same when it fucking well isn’t. Fr from it. I don’t clam to be destitute but theway things have been going I expect it woudn’t be long…Yet they do their best to defy party policy and deny alabour Govt. They’re being warned but they’re too far up their own arses to think about the consequences.
Previous turnouts prove that the majority of them don’t and didn’t even bother to vote in EU elections F complete FS. When it came to in/out there’d never been such a massive turnout. And we voted out, but that counts for nothing in the weird, self-centred & avaricious mind of the remainer.
So now they’re telling me I’m only in my predicament because of the way I voted in the referendum; them MEP’s who’s names I have never known and those unelected EU commissioners all give a toss about me and if I only allow them this little rerun all will be magically made better for them AND me.
Well it just won’t. YOU will lose out, but then again you don’t want me to gain because the EU’s done fuck-all for me as it might’ve done for you.
Nor have the toerags or ‘new labour’ done a great deal for me which leaves me with fuck-all to lose except another layer of bureaucracy to rule over me.
Oh, and I didn’t fall to earth in the last rainshower and I take it personally that slime like remainers on here try to tell me I must’ve done..
You can all get to fuck – every man jack of you.
Solidarity brother👏👏👏
SteveH you are right. Jeremy has so far stuck to all the principles and decisions made at the last conference and he has patiently explained this to interviewer after interviewer, who seem not to get it, probably deliberately so.
With rats in the garage it’s difficult to keep a clean house, but there’s plenty of us cats here keeping the show on the road and keeping the vision of a Labour government at the forefront of our thinking.
Onwards and upwards and pursue the rats, whoever they may be, out of the house and back to the fields in whatever way you can.
The goal is a Labour government. The ideal is a Labour government within the EU for me, but the Labour government is paramount whichever way it goes.
I’ve found it next to impossible to discuss with 2nd voters even the basics of their stance such as; what will the question(s) be?; when would it be held? If the result was a reversal of 2016 with the same small percentage would they insist that was it? Revoke and Forget? Oh and how is it done without a majority vote in Parliament? All you get is bluster but more commonly silence; the tiresome details aren’t important – which shows their REAL objective is elsewhere they don’t really expect a 2nd vote but it makes a fantastic cudgel.
”All you get is bluster but more commonly silence; the tiresome details aren’t important – which shows their REAL objective is elsewhere they don’t really expect a 2nd vote but it makes a fantastic cudgel.”
Been on this site long, Paul? 🙂
Paul 21/05/2019 at 4:33 pm
On the contrary I have myself advocated on numerous occasions that we have a 3 option CV with the options of Remain, Whatever Deal is on offer or Leave without a deal and apply to join the WTO. This should be decided using STV.
The referendum could be setup so that it is the final act that ratifies legislation that has previously been passed on the condition that it is ratified by the CV. (similar to the Kyle amendment) This will effectively remove any interference in the result by MPs
As for the closeness of any result. To some extent the chance of this happening would be mitigated by the use of STV as this system tends to give a more definitive result. If 4% was good enough for you last time then why not this time. As for the future if the decision of a CV is to revoke A50 and remain then of course that needn’t be the end of it for Leavers they can elect MPs who support Leave, build a proper plan and move forward from there. .
Is that clear enough for you.
So you don’t think 1 Remain choice is going to trump 2 Leaves by splitting their vote? Amazing!!!
Paul 21/05/2019 at 6:38 pm
Why would it, do you understand how STV works?
I love the way your condescion seeps into nearly all your supercilious comments; it’s that attitude that put off people most about the Remain campaign – which they went on to lose. On course for the same result?
Paul 21/05/2019 at 7:04 pm
You were complaining in your OP that Remainers wouldn’t engage wit you on the questions you raised and I have provided you with a comprehensive response. I’ve given you my opinion on the basis of where we are now, whether you agree or disagree is entirely up-to you.
I think the whole point is that 4% wasn’t good enough for you last time – so why is it suddenly different?
I love the way your condescion seeps into nearly all your supercilious comments; it’s that attitude that put off people most about the Remain campaign – which they went on to lose.
Ah, so you ARE familiar, then 😀
The questions could be along the lines of:-
1. Do you support leave or remain?
2.if a majority wishes to leave , then do you support a) the withdrawal deal on offer or
b) leaving without a deal?
I don’t see a problem with this.
Simon Dewsbury 21/05/2019 at 9:49 pm
I don’t think that works because it restricts people’s choice. For instance someone may choose a hard Brexit as their first choice but failing that they may choose to remain in preference to an half arsed neither in nor out.
What could be easier of fairer than simply asking people to rank their first and second preferences.
Paul –
“I love the way your condescion seeps into nearly all your supercilious comments”
There is a pattern in a lot of Lexiteer comments – a tendency to take offence at pretty innocuous comments, and then accuse the correspondent of all sorts of attitudes that are irrelevant to the argument.
The other part of the response is to be completely blind to *actual* ad hominem remarks made by fellow Lexiteers. There’s a psychological study waiting to be done on this syndrome that requires the erection of straw devils.
It’s a bit like Victorian hypocrisy – a drunkard condemning a mild tipple and pretending to support the Temperance movement, or an erring husband waxing lyrical against prostitution.
Just stick to the knitting.
This item is 5 days old only a handful of newspapers have touched it not a single TV news outlet will even look at it – You’d kind of think it was important proof that they’re selling off the NHS go figure is there an election in the offing ..
Big tobacco secretly bankrolling anti-NHS think tank whose bosses donate thousands to Tory leadership contenders, an investigation reveals
British American Tobacco is funding the Institute of Economic Affairs, which has called for the NHS to be abolished, while previous funders include sugar and soft drinks companies
Alex Matthews-King
Health Correspondent
5 days ago
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/big-tobacco-funding-conservatives-nhs-hancock-raab-davis-a8916561.html
Alright…… Where is he? There should be 20 comments and through the roof blood pressure from RH by now. Have the Lib Dems withdrawn his funding?
*Opens popcorn*
😀
I thinks it’s a choice between Labour 4 Brexit and a landslide then a transformation as an example to the World v Labour 4 Remain (which simply won’t happen) and Labour becomes Pasok.
Perhaps some need to try to imagine an internationalism via independent nation states outside of a Supra National Neo-Liberal structure which serves capital.
I think left wing democratic socialists should select 620 left wing democratic socialist PCCs.
Perhaps Robin Blackburn in New Left Review got it right saying Labour has about 40 Socilalist MPs,160 opportunists, and about 70 Blairite Neo-Liberals.
Good piece by Skwawky and meanwhile millions suffer and will increasingly continue to do so unless we can get rid of the Tories and the Right Wing Barbarians in Labour.
Stand by JC!
Bluster? Try Richard Braine if you want bluster.
At least Galbraith was only selling a book by being charmingly controversial with the comment Braine just butchered without attribution.
“Economists only exist to make astrologists look good.”
Safe bet he uses it at every opportunity, the thieving kipper.
I remember trying to reach out to the centrists sense of responsibly and duty to the people who need labour most during the Owen Smith challenge, the chicken coup and pre 2017 election . Calls for unity were met with contempt sourness and scurrilous rhetoric,they only doubled up their attacks . These people are political damaged machines and care only for themselves and getting rid of Corbyn. What an amazing party and Government we would have without them
The thing that some of the entitled types posting above (we are the majority in the party, we want our croissants on demand etc.) forget is that they are not the majority: the majority of the party are the affiliated members of trade unions and if Labour is not first and foremost the party of the organised working class it is less than nothing. A further point, a majority of Labour members elected Tony Blair, ditched clause 4, supported the Iraq and Libya wars, backed PFI, want to keep Trident – I could go on: the majority has so very often been totally fucking wrong but Corbyn never has – so back off weasels and stop objectively supporting yet another coup: there can only be two explanations for your behaviour: either you’re in the pay of foreign or domestic intelligence services or you’re totally fucking thick. I’m sorry but I’m losing it with the brain-donors and trolls who are desperate, for whatever reason, to sabotage Labour’s chances at the next general election.
labrebisgalloise 21/05/2019 at 8:18 pm
It appears that despite the opinion of some Union leaders the majority of Union members support second referendum.
Union members overwhelmingly back calls for referendum on Brexit deal, says poll
A poll by YouGov found that members of Unite, the country’s biggest trade union, supported calls for a vote on the final deal 59 per cent to 33 per cent, The Observer reported.
Unison members backed a fresh vote by 66 per cent to 22 per cent, and GMB members by 56 per cent to 33 per cent.
GMB general secretary Tim Roache announced that his union would back another referendum after consulting its 620,000 members.
https://www.independent.co.uk/final-say/second-referendum-union-members-unite-unison-gmb-brexit-deal-final-say-campaign-a8529381.html
It’s easy to sort tham out.
Phases such as “we want our croissants on demand” and uttering the words “working class” simply as an empty incantation (rather than as analysis – as they would claim) identify the lefty poseur shouting from the detached bubble and wedded to a patchwork of delusion.
Seems to me Labour’s chances after the next general election might depend as much on the adoption or not of mandatory/open selection at this year’s conference as on Brexit – any clues on the chances of it passing?
Do we have a big enough pool of nationally recommended candidates to replace the dead wood? I know that’s considered undemocratic but if a snap election were called tomorrow wouldn’t the process get hung up in NEC approval with maybe over a hundred CLP-recommended candidates otherwise – or is a process already under way?
The Brexit discussion’s at stalemate anyway – nobody seems likely to change their minds so what suggestions on selection?
Can the new lower threshold trigger ballots get the job done?
David McNiven 22/05/2019 at 12:49 am · · Reply →
Can the new lower threshold trigger ballots get the job done?
CLPs having to wait for the NEC’s permission before they can even start the process won’t help. I suspect those responsible will rue-the-day they sabotaging Mandatory Reselection and OMOV
I’ve read different versions of what was behind the 2018 conference decision – most but not all seem to say it was McCluskey and Lansman who sabotaged open selection – whether or not it really was those two isn’t it time for the voting rights of affiliates be reviewed?
That was the reason for my previous comment.
Union members will kick up a fuss but as one recently wrote, many union members are not Labour voters.
“TO be reviewed” you semi-literate lazy dog.
You had me at ‘fake left’ lundiel
No Deal disaster masters and snowflake middle class neverenders all piss in the same pot,
This is not a position we find ourselves that they cannot make infinitely worse and divide the country further
One lot happy to drive the economy off a cliff and the other showing utter contempt for democracy and those who chose to exercise it
Both camps have one thing in common they will not suffer the consequences, posh pratts playing at politics
As a believer in hatchet men put in to do bad things to bad people, methinks you start with a clear statement of intent,
Remove one of your own, Clive Lewis and/or Paul Mason, suit the bill, that gets everyones attention,
Then periodically until poison is removed, get rid of those who have been asking for it for an awful long time
Enjoy
Lets get a couple of things out of the way first :
It is possible that some deluded PLP members are still trying to torpedo Corbyn. It is also possible that they may try to use the Brexit policy issues as a lever for their delusion. A third thing is that they have to be pretty dense to think that the membership will go alond with another coup attempt, after the previous failures.
Beyond that, this item is bollocks on speed, pretending to nonsense such as a diagnosis of a dastardly plan about :
” [Labour’s] leave-supporting base, while [plotters are] trying to drive its remain-leaning supporters to other parties”
Anyone claiming that Labour’s base is ”leave supporting” is writing fiction or is living in La La Land – or both. The reverse is the truth. It’s nonsense typical of the spoof left who use the Party for their own fantasies and then cry foul when reality doesn’t match their imaginings.
As to the leakage of votes to other parties – this is happening spontaneously – as anyone in touch with the real world of Labour support knows, after working to persuade potential Green and LibDem voters to support Labour. Again the fingerprints of the spoof/joke left are all over a wild conspiracy theory like this.
The simple fact is that Brexit is an insupportably daft Tory wheeze that has managed to split the country. It is hardly surprising that much Labour support – which is overwhelmingly not suckered by such a daft idea – is somewhat dischuffed.
I shall be voting Labour this week – for an unrepentant ‘remain’ candidate who represents the views of the majority of party supporters.
Splitter!!! 😊
RH
Are you relying on MSM, Peoples vote and YouGov polls for your belief the majority of Labour supporters want another referendum
Could be problematic if you were to attempt a coup, time after time the numbers turn out to be less than expected,
Definition of madness is ?
Doug 21/05/2019 at 11:02 pm
The academic studies also confirm these results. FFS even the polling commissioned by Leave Means Leave confirms these results. I doubt it would credible to claim that LML conspired to sabotage their own polling.
Doesn’t the almost complete lack of published poll results from anyone on the Brexit side ring some alarms for you. Don’t you think that the likes of the ERG will have carried out their own private polling, there’s only one reason that I can think of that explains why they haven’t published them.
It’s Skwawky who’s currently pleasuring himself with coup fantasies – not me.
Thing is, Doug – I’d be happy to put any of the Tory propositions favoured by Brexiteers to a democratic test – including a poll of Labour members – and a proper referendum.
Meanwhile, I’ll use available information rather than wishing on a star as a guide to where opinion sits. Like the fact of the Greens and LibDems polling 50% more votes than Labour in the local elections – as I predicted after talking to erstwhile Labour supporters.
I actually want Labour to win elections rather than be an object of imagination.
RH, I’m with you about putting the Tory proposition to the vote with a referendum. I think the opposition parties may be missing a trick in not agreeing. It could see us with a no deal exit in October because of the lack of any legislative procedure to avoid it.
RH 21/05/2019 at 11:50 pm · ·
It’s Skwawky who’s currently pleasuring himself with coup fantasies – not me.
https://skwawkbox.org/2019/05/17/corbyn-on-tour-labour-roots-events-see-corbyn-and-shadow-cabinet-meet-public-and-activists-around-uk/#comment-105833
”I think I am being honest in saying that I don’t initiate ad hominem insults in the course of debate.”
Yeah, ok, lad.
Errr. … nothing ‘ad hominem’ about that (unless you misunderstand the term). It’s about promoting daft fictional *ideas* as seen on the page.
RH You dismiss the liklihood of another coup and I genuinely hope you are right but the 2016 coup showed us how very arrogant and stupid – a lethal combination – the anti Corbyn MPs are. Once you add malice and blighted ambition to the pot you have a truly malevolent group obsessed with getting rid of Corbyn.
Such is their antagonism to Jeremy Corbyn that they are prepared in my opinion to lose an election and impose more austerity on already suffering people in order to oust him.
I hope I am wrong about this but as Swawkbox has shown many of the signs are there.
I don’t entirely dismiss it, smartboy – but I can’t see many thinking it a good idea now.
As to the wider issues – one of my frustrations with the ambiguity of the Brexit policy is that it has handed the real enemies (as opposed to the majority of Labour supporters) an issue to beat Corbyn with and drive a wedge in the Party. It was logical to a point – but we are now far beyond that point.
It looks like Theresa May is in a little bit of trouble if tomorrow’s front pages are anything to go by.
The Times – “Tories reject May’s final attempt at Brexit deal”
Daily Telegraph: “‘Desperate, deluded, doomed’”
The Guardian – May’s final effort to win backing falls flat as MPs reject ‘new deal’
The Sun – “You’ll be Gurn in the morning”
The Daily Express – ” Besieged #TheresaMay ‘s last hurrah”
Wednesday’s i – “Another fine mess”
METRO: “Tory Fury Over PM’s Last-Ditch Brexit Bid”
Financial Times – May ignites Tory fury with concession on second vote”
Daily Mail – Theresa’s Gamble too far
SteveH, seeing as you mentioned that illustrious rag the ‘Scum’ I have to ask if anyone knows what its sales figures are say per thousand population in those areas which voted Leave, as against Liverpool’s figures which are virtually zero, which although it’s not exactly a bed of affluence voted Remain?
Could there be a correlation …. hmm, I wonder?
Jack T 22/05/2019 at 1:13 am · · Reply →
Could there be a correlation …. hmm, I wonder?
I was intrigued by your question but I couldn’t find any stats that break down the figures by region. The usually trusty https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/category/media_metrics/national-newspapers-audience-data/ was no help.
SteveH thanks for taking the trouble, perhaps Skwawky could tell us, he appears to be on top of these things.
I doubt that there’s a clear correlation – there’s plenty of alternative bog paper propounding the ERG/Lexiteer line. Interesting that very little attention is here directed to the overwhelming presence of the Tory propaganda press – as opposed to the apoplexy provoked by the Groan.
The way in which lines out of the Mail/Sun/Express/Telegraph nexus are quoted by Brexiteers is clear support for the significant influence.
Jack T 22/05/2019 at 10:15 am · ·
SteveH thanks for taking the trouble,
Oh look, stevey – ‘hero worship, how sweeeeeet’
https://skwawkbox.org/2019/05/18/senior-shadow-cab-member-i-blame-starmer-for-northern-problems/#comment-106085
The Toffee …..
“I’m already at the bottom of the shitheap”
I’m not surprised.
Being at ‘the bottom of the shitheap’ is not something I’d wish on anybody. It is shitty.
But that’s actually why ‘Remain’. Brexit just piles more shit on the heap – which isn’t caused by the EU or the generality of the population, and certainly not by the ordinary typical middle class Labour Party member.
I don’t want to see a hopefully victorious Labour Party having to devote time to shovelling even more shit than necessary in order to start making things better.
Ooohhhh, a bit close to home that one, was it, jacky?
Organ grinder’s monkey’s had his cage rattled…. Showing his colours now 🙂
That was unpleasant and uncalled for. What good is all of this for getting anywhere near to our having an even soft socialist government. Regards and I mean this, best wishes to all Skwawkboxers
Yes, I agree. Even if it’s the sort of level of insults that Toffee him/herself dishes out then there’s no need to reply in kind.
It does seem that a lot of this discussion is now quite historical. May is going; Boris will replace her and immediately call an election which in the circumstances he has a good chance of winning putting him and the Tories in power until 2024-5. The bickering has to stop. Only Corbyn can save the country from Johnson.
“Only Corbyn can save the country from Johnson”
… which is all the more reason – if your scenario comes to pass – of putting clear water between Labour and the Tories on Brexit.
I still doubt, however, that Tories led by a different gobbler will vote for Christmas.
The incessant knocking of Corbyn will only put a smile on Johnson’s face. Centre and Left need to face the reality of Johnson immediately calling an election on being voted Tory Leader. Farage MP will go into a Brexit coalition with Johnson so their vote isn’t split. Dark times!
“incessant knocking of Corbyn ”
I agree that Corbyn has had more than a fair share of unfair, biased and confected criticism. But the Brexit issues aren’t part of that. Politics is a rough old game … and he doesn’t need cotton wool, either.