Gary Ostrolenk, whose father escaped the nazis on the Kindertransport, has published details of his treatment as the Labour right’s war on left-wing Jews continues – and condemns Momentum for lack of solidarity
Since Keir Starmer conned his way into the Labour leadership, the party has waged war on the left – but in particular on left-wing Jewish members, triggering complaints to the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) that have so far seen no action.
Now Gary Ostrolenk, whose grandmother was murdered by the nazis and whose father escaped them on a Kindertransport train, has been expelled, on the pretext of sharing Facebook posts by organisations later banned by the party’s right-dominated national executive. Below he tells his story in his own words, as published to his Twitter feed – and condemns the Momentum group for its failure to show solidarity not only with him, but with all those falsely accused as part of a factional war that even the Starmer-commissioned Forde Report had to recognise:
Solidarity with all those smeared and hounded out of the party by the right-wing regime and the sneering cowards that run it yet allow right-wing racism to run rampant and unpunished.
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Given that he clearly expresses his continuing support for 2 proscribed organisations in his open letter is anybody surprised by the outcome.
Oh just FUCK OFF YOU MIND-NUMBINGLY KNOBHEAD.
Does anyone ever wonder why, when a story breaks damaging to neoliberal entryists into the Labour Party a certain troll appears – subverting & misdirecting the normal debate – top of the comment posters?
You’d almost think he was being funded to stay awake at all hours – like Israel trolls – to do just this thing!
Bernie – What I have noticed is that I posted my first comment 69 minutes after this article was published. Nobody else had posted anything for over an hour but lo and behold as soon as I posted my comment pointing out the obvious you all woke up.
Interesting that when a certain neoliberal troll is accused of industrialised 24hr criticism of the site’s of scrutiny neoliberal entryism, the troll boasts about how far its hourly posted propaganda, got in front genuine grassroots debate.
Ha,ha, Condemned from its own mouth!
Bernie – Condemned for what?
Grow up
I hope you properly read Gary’s link to “Proscriptions in the Labour Party” before you posted that ill-considered question Steveh. https://docs.google.com/document/d/19dcUSwXelJkmX0PakeWOZDkylEowYn16/edit
“To get some sense of how historically alien this McCarthyite gerrymandering is to Labour, it is worth recalling that there has always been a revolving door between external grassroots Marxist/Socialist left groups and the Socialist left within the Party. Labour Peer and ex-Chancellor the late Denis Healey actually came to Labour from the Communist Party – as had former Shadow Minister Eric Heffer.”
See –
https://labourheartlands.com/starmers-road-to-voter-and-labour-party-suppression/
Not for the first time, can I suggest we don’t respond to the debate sidelining red herrings of a certain troll?
If the Nazis had a rule book citation saying sterilization of minorities and death camps were fine, that no more would have legitimised those practices, than our comrade’s expulsion. And Slavery was even legal to once
.
So let’s just focus on the fact that a decent Jewish activist has been purged by the umpteenth one-sided selective manipulation of so-called ‘rules’.
Bernie – He had a choice to make once these organisations had been proscribed.
So the Führer has lied his way to the leadership.
Broken his policy oaths.
Has gutted the Party of potentially questioning members – many of them Jews.
Has stolen voting rights from members.
Banned free association.
Banned free speech, even for shadow cabinet members.
Rigged rules to prevent leadership challenges against him.
Has corruptly inverted the Party from pro-worker to pro-employer orientation (see Reeves).
Instead of facetious discussions about how far the rule book can be manipulated to support this, we should outing this for the Fascism it is. Our Labour grandparents & great-grandparents who fought the Nazis, must be spinning in their graves.
Posts from 2 years before the groups were proscribed. That is Witch Hunting not insubordination.
Anyway what is the Neo-Labour TORIES’ process in deciding what is proscribed and what is not, is it just based on the word of BlueKeef?
nellyskelly – The NEC voted this through and Gary Ostrolenk clearly states in his open letter that he continues to support these proscribed organisations.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1b4m15tQQ0SWcrOmVs9u6tt8Y7hppdP9f/view
“RETROSPECTIVELY”
https://twitter.com/GOstrolenk/status/1568914350303313920?s=20&t=CHwL0-NZpc89Op3DD2JM_w
Anycase these expulsions are nothing more than a tool in The Witch Hunt, in no other organisation will there be a dedicated social media trawling secret services unit, that trawls the staff as the enemy rather than the opposition/competition as the enemy, it is despicable and it is beyond psychotic obsessive bullying.
Maria – You might have a point if it weren’t for the fact that c20% of Labour’s current MPs are from an ethnic minority.
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/155DC/production/_110161578_ethnicity_2019-nc.png.webp
Also the incidents reported on by the Forde Report all occurred prior to Keir taking office.
Very few Jews these days, mostly far right JLM, BoD, LFA. Neo-Labour is not the place to be Jewish or Socialist. Hopefully that will reflect at the GE!
nellyskelly – …The latest NEC elections tell a different story.
nellyskelly – Perhaps the outcome would have been different if Gary had responded by clearly stating that he no longer supported these proscribed organisations.
What? So now BlueKeef is in the business of mind reading and thought controll?
You can support whoever you like, no proscription can stop that, the Social Media posts from before proscription is all they have the open letter was written post expulsion. Unless BlueKeef and his Mossad agent has access to people’s minds, personal computers and pseudonyms, they have nothing but their Fanatacism with “Fringe” Jews and Socialists! I remember someone else who had very similar hatred.
SteveH- why can’t you admit that it’s not as simple as “rules are rules”? There was no decent reason to punish people for having had contact with proscribed organisations BEFORE they were proscribed, OR to have a Labour general-secretary actually remove the concepts of “fair play” and “natural justice” from party disciplinary procedures?
Why can’t you admit there is no reason, over two years in to Keir’s rule, for the purges still to be going on at all? Why can’t you admit it’s time for this reign of terror to be brought to an end, since it was never needed and isn’t doing the party any good?
Why can’t you admit there was no justification for Keir punishing anyone, and that it’s not a crime to be a socialist?
SteveH 11/09/2022 at 6:18 pm :
What a ridiculous statement, to make. That smacks of desperation, for a point of argument. A fifth-form debating point. I’m betting you’re wishing you could delete that, now.
A General Election vote will be vastly different to an internal, corrupted – gerrymandered – internal vote.
You – none of you, in Southside Labour – seems to have grasped that possibility, yet.
“Perhaps the outcome would have been different if Gary had responded by clearly stating that he no longer supported these proscribed organisations.”
Emperor’s New Clothes. He’s naked!!
And Starmer is an enemy-agent Entrist, denaturing and destroying the Labour party, Not my leader!
qwertboi – I thought you’d already left the party.
Why are these organisations proscribed SteveH in this Brave New World of Sir Keir?
https://labourlist.org/2021/07/battle-between-leadership-and-labour-left-intensifies-amid-proscription-plans/
AND
steve101704 – https://labourlist.org/2022/03/labour-nec-bans-three-more-groups-not-compatible-with-party-rules-or-values/
I was a member of 2 proscribed organisations & despite (or because) I identify myself as a Socialist I jumped B4 I was pushed. I believe that the war in Ukraine is wrong but the fault is predominantly with NATO & its expansion ever eastwards. NATO was never a ‘defensive alliance’, it was designed to serve US interests post WW2 & the Western Military Industrial Complex that even Eisenhower warned against. For this ‘thought crime’ I would have been expelled from the ‘Labour Party’. As a Marxist I am beginning to wonder if Groucho was also right.
The Labour Party has become an authoritarian Fascistic oraganisation banning freedon of speech, thought & debate, using retrospective proscription of organisations to enforce a straight-jacket of preferred ideologies – the bible according to Sir Keir. SteveH attempts to defend the indefensible, but self-evident truths will always be a problem. The Labour Party is a FASCIST ORGANISATION which is why it cannot & will not tolerate any differences of opinion.
No he doesnt! If you read his full letter he does not express ANY
continuing support. There is a paragraph or so of it quoted in
the main article where it is not clear – however the full letter
accessible via the link makes no such connection.
Am surprised though to note you have not provided a
relevant quote supporting your claim – so why not?
HFM – I’m quite happy for people to read Gary’s full letter (which I have already linked to above) and draw their own conclusions. For your convenience here’s the link again.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1b4m15tQQ0SWcrOmVs9u6tt8Y7hppdP9f/view
We have all had a taste of this Vulgar Abuse of Antisemitism and the Witch Hunt, one way or another. I couldn’t imagine being Jewish and on the same blunt end of that atrocious behaviour. Shame on every Zionist, every Sayanim, every Neo-Labour Party TORY Saboteur and every Witch Hunter! You crawled from under your rocks now there is no going back, we saw you, we see you!
PS just happened on this https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/08/30/jsff-a30.html
it may go some way to explaining why Unite pulled the plug on Enough is Enough, I can’t say that I agree with everything wsws has to say, nonetheless, there it is contents more interesting than the title.
“Given that he clearly expresses his continuing support for 2 proscribed organisations”?
Now where would it say that?
goldbach – You’ll see for yourself when you get around to reading his open letter.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1b4m15tQQ0SWcrOmVs9u6tt8Y7hppdP9f/view
The serious point is that a proscription needs us to respect the authority of the proscriber. Keir Starmer weakens his every time he tries to exert his.
qwertboi – The proscriptions were voted for by the full NEC.
In the meantime Labour accepts a former Tory MP into the PLP. Do you have to say anything about it SteveH?
The Tories are clearly making a pitch to Asian and Black members by ensuring plenty of brown and black faces in Cabinet. Labour has relied heavily on the votes of both the Asians and the Black communities to secure seats. Make no mistake the Tories, LibDem will use Forde’s finding on the door step while canvassing black and Asian residents.
Add to the picture that people like me wouldn’t be canvassing for Labour as before but, rather for socialist candidates and otherwise recommend abstention because the Labour Party is a cesspit of racism, antisemitism and misogyny, the picture for Labour wining the next General Election is bleak.
Maria – You might have had a point if it weren’t for the fact that c20% of Labour’s current MPs are from an ethnic minority. https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/155DC/production/_110161578_ethnicity_2019-nc.png.webp
Also the incidents reported on by the Forde Report all occurred prior to Keir taking office.
I presume that you mean this bit:
“I am, though, in agreement with LAW, with LIEN, and with hundreds of thousands of
Party members, in their opposition to the witch-hunt of socialists from the Party:
a. the bans and proscriptions of socialist organisations,
b. the shutting down of CLPs,
c. the imposition of candidates for national and local elections,
d. the interference in how CLPs are allowed to run their meetings,
e. the suppression of free speech,
f. suspensions for expression of solidarity with Jeremy Corbyn, and
g. expulsions on the bogus charge of “supporting” proscribed organisations.”
However, it doesn’t say the he expresses “his continuing support for 2 proscribed organisations”.
It simply says that he agrees with their statements expressing “opposition to the witch-hunt of socialists from the Party”.
Are you not opposed to the expulsions of people for being socialists?
SteveH, one problem Starmer is being quiet about Forde in many aspect including how antisemitism was weaponised for political gain.
Hence, either he returns the Labour whip to Corbyn or otherwise he is going to be found wanting.
Plus how many BAME MPs are in Cabinet?
The Tories had more in Cabinet plus, most BAME Labour MPs pay lip service to their communities. How do you think Aspire managed to win hands down in Tower Hamlets?
Somehow voters in the former Red wall have got Starmer’s number and are not showing much enthusiasm for Starmer and his 26 billions when Liz Truss has again surpass Starmer from the left with 100 billions.
Even Labour Party members aren’t bothering voting in internal elections. Do you honestly believe Starmer is going to be able to master the numbers that Corbyn mastered on canvassing sessions?
SteveH 11/09/2022 at 6:08 pm :
Is this your attempt to shift the blame for the contents of The Leaked Labour Party Report – Mar/Apr 2020(LLPR2020), onto Jeremy Corbyn and his LOTO office staff?
If so, that’s bordering on insanity – and you know it.
The Forde Inquiry was into the LLPR2020, which – as the world and his wife knows, by now – was about the actions of the treacherous Labour HQ staff sabotaging their own party’s GE prospects, in 2017.
All because Jeremy Corbyn supports – to the hilt – Human Rights for all people, including Palestinians.
Which raises another question, little discussed.
Which country does Starmer and his cabal, actually, owe allegiance too? The UK, or Zionist Israel?
George – Jeremy and his team made a strategic mistake right at the start of his tenure when they failed to replace McNicol. They were incredibly naive.
SteveH 12/09/2022 at 1:22 pm :
McNicol was kept in place until Jennie Formby had recovered, sufficiently, from her cancer, and her cancer treatment, to replace him. Everyone knew he was a ‘fill-in’.
What no one knew was what a treacherous little rat he would be, and would take full advantage of Jennie’s illness, to play a full part in the sabotage of GE19.
I defy anyone to say they knew, any Labour Party official would do something like that. If they did know, and said nothing, that would make them complicit, in the sabotage.
George Peel 12/09/2022 at 1:46 pm :
*GE17
GE19 was a whole different betrayal, altogether.
George – “McNicol was kept in place until Jennie Formby had recovered, sufficiently, from her cancer, and her cancer treatment, to replace him. Everyone knew he was a ‘fill-in’.”
You are mistaken Jennie’s cancer wasn’t diagnosed until about a yearafter she took up her post as GenSec.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/25/labour-party-general-secretary-jennie-formby-diagnosed-breast-cancer
SteveH 12/09/2022 at 2:04 pm :
You’re, quite, right. I was mistaken in the timeline.
That doesn’t negate the fact that McNicol is a treacherous rat, fully complicit in the sabotage that took place during GE17.
I reiterate – who would have thought a senior Labour Party official would turn out to be so treacherous, to The Party – and – to the country, as a whole?
Did you know?
George – I do remember thinking at the time that Jeremy was incredibly naive to leave McNicol in place. It’s also worth bearing in mind that most of those exposed by the ‘leaked dossier’ were unelected Union appointees and a significant proportion of the NEC’s delegates and the regional officials `are also unelected Union appointees.
SteveH 12/09/2022 at 2:53 pm :
Aye, right you are. …and of course, you told no one.
Unelected Union appointees, or not, they were – are – still, treacherous unelected Union appointees.
As I said before, it wasn’t, just, The Labour Party, they betrayed, it was the whole country.
I attach no blame to Jeremy Corbyn. To do that would be in hindsight, and any fool can be right, using hindsight.
Can I just tell people regarding my likes, half the time I simply forget, then try to go back and like, but mostly for some reason my likes are not sticky, I think it’s, because of damned Firefox, maybe WordPress in Firefox on Android!?
Anyway doesn’t mean that I don’t support your views if I don’t like. Except for you of course SteveH, I rarely like what you have to say ;););) Very rarely, but that is reciprocal, C’est la Vie!
nellyskelly – Try going into your Firefox settings and ensure that Skwawkbox is allowed to open pop-up windows.
In other news:
I never took this “end days” stuff seriously. However.maybe I should have done so.
The Polish government has demanded $1.3 trillion in reparations from Germany (WW2) and wants territory (back) from Czech Republic which was disputed after the settlement post-WW2.
Crazy times.
Goldbach…..interesting comment from Moscow that Germany has crossed a red line in suppying weapons and technology help so quickly after the years of working as a neutral country that was trying to make inroads into friendship with Russia after all the atrocities committed inside Russia in WW2.
I have personally along with many millions of others in Britain and Europe whos fathers and grandfathers were maimed or killed by a rampant Germany under the Kaiser and the Nazi Adolf Hitler.been appalled that the attack dogs are unchained and are already dictating the pace of European allies.in europe in playing a proxi war against Russia and its allies in the world.This as we all know could easily kick off into a full blown nucluer confrontation with even China being involved.if as seems the case Nato via the UN are casting the lines way beyond the N.Atlantic.into the Pacific rim
Forgive…yes but never forget that Germany cost British and many Irishmen like my father and grandfathers more than just six years but their health and lives. “.Never Again” and here we go again remember in November when the hypocrisy of the politicians is for all to see and wonder at the myth of “Never Again” .
Joseph – It looks like Putin has had his arse kicked over the last few days and that some of his most prominent supporters aren’t very happy. I hope this continues.
You can either wake up and smell the coffee or wake up and smell the ashes.
Next month it goes pop. Everywhere.
All planned, all organised. Jacob Rothschild tweeted in March to hoard food.
All the signs are there. Everywhere.
Goldbach, is Poland also demanding territory back from Ukraine? I believe that part of today’s Ukranian territory know as western Ukranian was Polish territory after 1st WW and most of is nearly 150K inhabitants speak Polish as their mother tongue.
Unlike the statements of members of the Polish government regarding reparations and the Czech Republic, I have seen no statements from them about Ukraine.
However, in around April/May of this year when Russian-allied forces had taken control of much of the south of Ukraine, there were rumours flying around that Poland had stationed significant forces close to the border with the intention of seizing part of eastern Ukraine should the Ukrainian resistance (and government) collapse.
Or maybe their primary objective was to discourage Putin from invading them.
Who knows?
I am simply reporting the fact that such rumours were circulating in Poland at the time.
Whether these rumours were based on information leaking from people connected to the government, or whether they were initiated by the ultra-nationalists who want to re-establish Greater Poland is anyone’s guess.
Oh, and you forgot to answer the question “Are you not opposed to the expulsions of people for being socialists?”
goldbach – I’m not opposed to people being expelled from the party for actively working to undermine the Labour Party’s electoral prospects, are you.
I believe that the Russian invasion of Ukraine was wrong BUT……it seems that Putin believes that Ukraine; Poland; Czech Republic et.al are part of his ‘own back yard’, can you imagine what would happen if USA behaved in the same way in South America?
“I’m not opposed to people being expelled from the party for actively working to undermine the Labour Party’s electoral prospects, are you.”
Ah, so you think that Watson, Mandelson, Hodge, and all the others who actively worked for a Labour defeat in 2017 (see the relevant report) should be expelled from the LP. Good for you.
You may also have noted that Mr Ostrolenk did not actively work to undermine the LP’s electoral prospects, yet you seem not to be able to raise questions about his treatment.
And you still haven’t decided whether or not you approve of the LP expelling people for being socialists.
goldbach – He had a choice and he chose to continue his support for 2 proscribed organisations. .
Could you show a link to where he has expressed “support for the proscribed organisations”? You haven’t done so yet, though you keep making that assertion.
And have you thought any more about whether you approve of the LP expelling peoplke for being socialists?
goldbach – https://skwawkbox.org/2022/09/11/jewish-member-whose-grandmother-was-murdered-by-nazis-expelled-by-starmers-labour/#comment-232749
There was a post on “Labour List” which had the
little information we have about the cases for
Prohibition of the various Organisations.
The NEC agenda item which dealt with this came at the end
of a lengthy (8 hour) agenda packed meeting and was rapidly
disposed of.
This commenced with a short verbal, presentation of the
findings of a secret cabal which decided they were BAD. No
papers were tabled and there was no indication that there were
questions.
This sort of verbal presentation is called “arm waving” in science
circles but the difference is that in science there are ALWAYS
detailed technical papers for back up.
If the sort of arguments we have seen given to expelled members
is typical – then I can imagine the complete lack of rigour of the
cases for prohibition of the various organisations.
I think this is called “shoehorning” an item through and woe betide
any NEC member who questions or argues against any of this.
The treatment of Gary is antisemitism in action. Where is the outcry from the BoD, CAA, JLM etc – their silence is deafening
No it isn’t
Oh yes it is!
steve101704 – Oh no it isn’t – and you can’t prove otherwise.
Quite so. Neither of you can “prove” what is an opinion.
What is indisputable is that a disproportionate number of those expelled and those suspended from membership of the LP over recent years have been, and continue to be, Jewish. There would appear to be sufficient reason for there to be a truly independent investigation into whether or not this is a case of structural racism in the LP.
Labour needs us more than we need them
NVLA – So you and your comrades keep telling us, (ad-infinitum). Who are you trying to convince 😏
How many labour voters needed the second referendum, plums?
You thought it was at least 70%. Until they fucked off in droves because of keefs’ shithousery of imposing a policy keef made up on the fly.
That was just about EU membership.
Since then smarmerist labour has haemorrhaged membership and has failed to convincingly win a by-election or sustain a single-point lead on those opinion polls you’re creaming yourself over when keefs’ got more than a two-point lead over THE shittest, most incompetent AND corrupt successive toerag governments in all of history.
That’s despite you telling us anyone but Corbyn would be at least twenty points ahead.
Well they’re NOT. And piss-poor by-election results plus piss-poor council elections undeniably prove this to be the case.
WHY?
Because people neither need, nor want, the ersatz toerag government that smarmerism will bring them.
But smarmerism needs MY vote, and those of a fair few hundreds of thousands of folk like me.
And they won’t be getting mine under ANY circumstance as I have NO desire to enable and empower a bunch of power-hungry ersatz toerags to inflict just as much financial and social restraints on me (and people like me) as the REAL toerags are doing now.
Name me an anti-austerity policy that smarmerism has championed and is championing now?
Free school meals for kids? Nope.
£15 per hour NMW? Nope.
Increasing the tax burden on those most able to afford it? Hahaha!!
No. It’s just more of the same.
But he! Forget all keefs’ shithousery on his reneged-on pledges – he’s got a green paper….That he can do fuck-all about because he’ll NEVER be in a position TO do anything about it, and even if he WAS – it’d be changed to look fuck all like it does now and we’d be palmed off with THE most piss-poor of excuses AGAIN.
Now fuck off and contract something terminal.
Toffee – Labour’s consistent lead in the polls since the end of last year tells a different story.
As has been said on the internet once or twice…
We are Anonymous. We are legion. We do not forgive, we do not forget. Expect us
SteveH, prove oterwise? ‘Oh yes I can!’
Gary Ostrolenk’s expulsion for alleged anti-Semitism is a matter of opinion? There is more than enough evidence to prove it is not & that the Labour Party is now a Fascist Organisation.
steve101704 – Gary was expelled from the party for supporting a proscribed organisation
Off Topic? NO, not really. Labour needs us more than we need themJeremy Corbyn on the Report Mainstream Media Doesn’t Want You to Know About
qwertboi – – Who said anything about you or anyone else being off topic until now.
Who the fuck are you to dictate the terms of posting when all you ever do is A/ Post way off topic yourself – especially when keefs’ been shown to be the thundercunt he is, yet again.
B/ Deliberately antagonise people in order to bring the flak onto yourself rather than be critical of smarmerism. (Without realising you’re despised every bit as much as he is)
C/ Repeatedly post the same wee stevie bingo default answers when you’ve got nothing left – not that you ever have anything to begin with; other than the tired, over-abused shite what I’ve described.
You’re a slimy little shite that makes excuses for, and thereby enables, nonces. Your demise cannot come quickly enough for the good of the planet as a whole.
Toffee – On the contrary you’re the one attempting to do that, I’m not the one dictating what others say.
Perhaps you could explain why you think that my original comment (pointing out the obvious) “Given that he clearly expresses his continuing support for 2 proscribed organisations in his open letter is anybody surprised by the outcome.” is off topic.
The problem has always been the EHRC. An organisation set up by Blair to tell us what they believe to be ‘what is right & what is wrong, according to law’. There must be a great deal of doubt about the impartiality of the EHRC, its composition & the anonymity of the compainants. Adam Wagner (Doughty Street Chambers) represented both ‘complainants’ & EHRC. It seems that ‘the complainants’ were the CAA & chums, but we were denied access to the substance of their accusatations, now adopted as a ‘favoured’ mechanism for expulsion by the Labour Party. No glasnost nor perestroika!
Many of the antagonists here continually use personal insults to denegrate SteveH.This is self-defeating, undignified & contrary to any concept of Voltaire’s definition reference the importance of Freedom of Speech’. May I suggest that we all take a small leaf from Jeremy Corbyn’s book & follow his example. Personal insults only contribute hate to any debate.
You reap what you sow steve101704
NVLA – It’s what people do when they haven’t got a cogent argument.
That and deflection tactics (q.v. many times in your contributions.
goldbach – Are you easily distracted?
SteveH – Do you ever give evidence to justify your assertions?
Do you ever answer questions with a straight “yes” or “no”?
Do you ever engage in a real debate?
What is the purpose of your existence?
How did you arrive at the view that neoliberalism is good?
Was Starmer once DPP?
goldbach
Do you ever give evidence to justify your assertions?
Yes frequently
Do you ever answer questions with a straight “yes” or “no”?
If I can but that depends on the question. Life is rarely that simplistic outside La-La-Land
Do you ever engage in a real debate?
Are you claiming that you do, do you have some examples
What is the purpose of your existence?
Like most people I’ll probably still be trying to work that one out when I take my last breath, how about you?
How did you arrive at the view that neoliberalism is good?
I wasn’t aware that I had
Was Starmer once DPP?
Yes
I wish that were true, but I believe JC is right!
steve101704
I understand the thrust of your argument and, if it refers simply to what my ma used to call “foul language” that’s fine.
However, I would make a few ancillary points.
I think that invoking the concept of “free speech” is off the mark since no amount of foul language can censor what SteveH, or indeed anyone else, says.
Personal insults are not the only factor, and probably not even the major factor, in contributing to what I would call anger rather than hate. Indeed, they are more an outpouring of the anger that has been cultivated by what some may think are disingenuous comments.
I think that Jeremy Corbyn’s book, though admirable in part lacked part 2. The bit where he failed to go hard after his opponents’ ideas and tactics; and that can be done without foul language.
After all, it is much easier to laugh off a series of foul-mouthed insults than to tolerate two of those things that were outlawed in that old radio programme, Just A Minute.
“Joseph – It looks like Putin has had his arse kicked over the last few days and that some of his most prominent supporters aren’t very happy.”
In terms of public relations and the perceptions of many people in Russia and elsewhere, and in terms of the abandonment of those who were being protected in the area around Izium, that is correct.
In military terms it is not so. Intelligence analysts indicate that there has long been a difference of opinion between the military and the political spheres in Russia over the wisdom of holding on to that area when it was of no military advantage. (Just as there were similar disagreements in Ukraine over the wisdom of launching an offensive in Kherson Oblast.) What appears to have happened is as follows:
* For around 3 weeks Russia has been moving regular army units from the Izium area to Kherson leaving the Donbas militias and Russian “gendarmes” to protect Izium.
*.The Russian military seemed to have won the argument and was preparing for a full withdrawal from Izium.
* US surveillance would have picked up the redeployments from Izium and would have let Ukraine know and this would have led to the ending of the failed attempt to make progress in Kherson and a decision to attack Izium.
* There appears to have been minimal action in terms of infantry battles in the Izium area with Ukrainian troops in the main advancing into abandoned areas.
*Russia showed video of large scale troop movements “going towards Izium” which seem to have caused Ukraine to pause the attack on Izium town (for long enough for Russia to evacuate the few remaining defenders overnight). The video was clearly a disinformation exercise with analysts asserting that it was shot on the Moscow ring road. Nevertheless it appears to have worked. With Russian-allied forces sustaining small numbers of casualties.
*Ukraine seems to have sustained a significant number of casualties, but these are from artillery attacks, air attacks and missile attacks.
All in all this is:
A PR mess for Russia
A PR gain for Ukraine
A victory for the senior Russian military command over the political.
A victory for the senior Ukrainian military command over the political (they had always opposed the action in Kherson, favouring an offensive in Izium).
I suspect that the consequence of this will be that, from now on, both Russia and Ukraine will be more guided by their senior military officers and less by political considerations.
However it will be very unlikely to affect the outcome of the war other than to speed up what will happen. President Putin appears to have wanted to go slowly in order to protect civilian infrastructure and lives (as far as was possible) which, in a war, isn’t easy. The recent missile attacks on the power infrastructure seem to indicate that the Russian military have got their way (Ukraine will now find it very difficult to move troops around. They have been doing this by rail to date but, all Ukrainian railways are powered by electricity – not any more.)
I also suspect that whereas, until now, the bulk of the infantry fighting has been carried out by the Donbas militias with some help from the Chenchens and the Wagner mercenary group we will see a much stronger part being played by regular Russian infantry troops.
The world needs a negotiated settlement but, sadly, I can’t see that happening.
Whoops – for “Chenchens” read “Chechens”.
Is that one you prepared earlier. How gullible are you
I see that your analysis is as thorough and reasoned as ever.
goldbach – Why would I want to waste my time debunking Putin’s propaganda. You’re the one with the problem.
Which goes to prove my point at12/09/2022 AT 6:06 PM
Since the analysis comes from retired CIA analysts who still have contacts within the CIA, and current independent military analysts who receive information from Ukrainian government sources, Russian government sources, reporters on the ground close to the conflict zones and individuals in the conflict zones who are either supportive of Ukraine or supportive of Russia, it is reasonable to take heed of what is being reported. What analysts do is to take all this information and try to cut through the fog of war to work out what is really going on.
Now where does your expert analysis come from?
It may be in your mind but for my part I simply can’t be bothered. You are going to have to find someone else to play with down your 🐰🕳️
When you have no case to make, simply say you can’t be bothered and issue a very mild insult, I see. Glad to hear, though, that you can’t be bothered to continue with your nonsense.
Goodnight, and I actually do hope that you have a good night.
🤷🏽♂️