AWL, LLA and Socialist Labour Network to be banned retrospectively – and several who helped sell Starmer to left-wing Labour members are strongly linked to AWL, along with at least one MP
A number of figures who ‘left-washed’ Starmer, helping to hand him victory in the Labour leadership election, face expulsion from the party as Labour’s national executive votes tomorrow to proscribe three further organisations on top of the four it outlawed last July.
Alliance for Workers’ Liberty (AWL), Labour Left Alliance (LLA) and Socialist Labour Network are to be banned tomorrow – and the party will of course ignore any concept of natural justice by applying the ban retrospectively, kicking out people who had links with the groups when they were not outlawed, as they have done with Socialist Appeal, Labour against the Witchhunt, Labour in Exile Network and Resist.
Several leading ‘blue-tickers’ who backed Starmer during the leadership contest and helped him fool many left members of the party into voting for him have close ties to AWL – as does at least one former front-bench MP.
Like any good Stalinist, Keir Starmer appears to adhere to the dead Russian despot’s maxim that ‘gratitude is a disease of dogs’ – and with the Labour right gleefully trampling all over justice by applying proscription retrospectively, all of them face expulsion.
Of course, that handful of ‘useful idiots’ might get a pass – especially as AWL doesn’t publish membership lists and operates on something of a ‘don’t talk about fight club’ basis and they have so far seemed to be studiously pretending that the new proscriptions haven’t been leaked and don’t exist.
Either way, Starmer and co’s contempt for democracy, justice and Starmer’s own campaign promises is a one-way street that they only ever go further along – and the hollowed-out husk of what used to be the Labour party gets drier and more lifeless daily.
SKWAWKBOX needs your help. The site is provided free of charge but depends on the support of its readers to be viable. If you’d like to help it keep revealing the news as it is and not what the Establishment wants you to hear – and can afford to without hardship – please click here to arrange a one-off or modest monthly donation via PayPal or here to set up a monthly donation via GoCardless (SKWAWKBOX will contact you to confirm the GoCardless amount). Thanks for your solidarity so SKWAWKBOX can keep doing its job.
If you wish to republish this post for non-commercial use, you are welcome to do so – see here for more.
Has anyone who was expelled from Labour when the other organisations were proscribed responded to their letter from the NEC by clearly stating that they have severed all links with the proscribed body.
https://c.tenor.com/dpiyjj_vD5AAAAAd/gran-torino-clint-eastwood.gif
Perhaps they’re not all grovelling little shits like you. Maybe they have principles that they stick to.
I guess they made their choice then.
I guess they actually stand up for what they believe in.
Principled seems to be a proscribed mindset within smarmerite labour.
But heyho! It won’t be long before keef gets irritated with your relentless verbal rimming of him.
Best get your arslikhan letter ready, or better still get over to Southside in person to give him the real thing. 👍😉
Toffee – Why are you getting your knickers in a twist when you left the Labour party over 25yrs ago. If they have chosen not to disassociate themselves from the proscribed organisation then they have made their choice. Why have you got a problem with that, it was their choice.
Getting me knickers on a twist?
What part of ‘Maybe they have principles’ gives you the extremely deluded notion that I – in any way – condemn theiractions, over that of a clueless wannabe dictator with zero morals and even less persona?
On the contrary (See what I did there?) I applaud their principles actions in the name of democratic freedom.
As for smarmer and smarmerism however… Well, I’ll leave you to fill in the blanks.
…that’s fill in the blanks, NOT the crack in his arse with your tongue, again.
Toffee – They made their choice
Yes idiot, I think we’ve established that.
And don’t forget to mention that keef chose to expel them – without any satisfactory explanation, without exception AND without justification.
So, let’s hear it, then….
Toffee – It is the NEC that decides whether an organisation should be proscribed or not.
He gets paid to say that Toffee….Meanwhile Rome is burning and Starmer is fiddling.
I think most of us would share The Toffee’s rightly indignant sentiments here – thanks!.
But what he is reacting to is the fact that the Troll has turned up again on a site, and among a community with which the Troll shares nothing. And he is once again attempting to subvert debate.
The issue here is neoliberal entryism and McCarthyism NOT letters of reply.
It is not worth giving the Troll traction by replying directly to it like it is a normal comment contributor who posts in good faith.
But if you do feel the need to refute its propaganda, perhaps consider doing so without using its name and therefore normalising its presence here.
Bernie – I have asked a simple and straight forward question. If these members are deciding that their priorities lay elsewhere than that is their choice.
If they are auto kicked out there is NO discussion. No appeal and no one cares what you say. now maybe if they obeyed any sort of natural justice as they ascribe to.
So maybe there whould be some rule but conveniently they don’t care about rules. They auto kick you that’s it goodbye thanks for being a sucker call the Samaritans BS all in a nice letter.
I suggest you might like to remain silent on this one old chap. Your side as usual is in the wrong and no amount of handwaving or explaining away will wash away this tide of BS, lies and deceptions any longer! I can’t wait until the elections when the bill comes due and they see how shitting on the left costs them millions of votes…
db – You may have had a point if the ‘accusation’ letters that are sent out prior to the case being heard didn’t specifically invite the ‘accused’ to respond to the allegations. If social media is to be believed a lot of those ‘accused’ choose to ignore this and refuse to respond leading to an inevitable result.
It’s about time someone made one of those parody ‘downfall’ videos…
Toffee, I have no doubts in my mind that the majority of the shadow were in Trot outfits at Uni. You know, combat jackets, Palestinian scarves and various badges. Are we expected to believe that these brave Bolsheviks and their democratic centralism papers have all written letters apologizing for their disgusting pasts? Has Max. Course not, the leadership fiddles while the party burns. All types of fiddling, financial, personal and oh so private. Do Masons get booted out? A question for those who have had the Trots. How the fuck did you get all of those different papers up and running? We had keep up with over time and Keep Left crumbled. Oh yeah we were tankies, Stalinists, no daddies.
On what basis were organisations proscribed? And who took the very serious decision to proscribe them? And were they informed of the proceedings impending? And were they given the opportunity to make their case against proscription to the Party’s members? And is there any appeal procedure?
It is the fact that such basic questions, connected with the relationship between those in authority and the rights of individuals and groups in the Party that casts very serious doubt on the ability of the Starmer/Mandelsonites to govern without breaking the law.
We have already seen, in the wars they conducted, illegally against the people of Iraq and Afghanistan, leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands and the creation of millions of refugees, how deep is their contempt for laws and customs.
At best these Starmerites believe that Might is Right. But it is most likely that they are witting agents of US Imperialism.
To support them in any way is to become an accessory to crimes.
bevin – They were proscribed by the NEC. AWL members are being proscribed on the basis that the group has acted as a separate political party, whilst LLA and Socialist Labour Network are being proscribed due to their close links to already proscribed organisations.
I live in hope that one day they might proscribe JLM.
And yet they’ll welcome with open arms, former toerag MPs without any notion of a retrospective expulsion…
Toffee – I think you are missing the point.
Why did they not proscribe the Tory Party? it seems being a member of that particular group is fine and says all you need to know about New Labour, proscribed groups are said to be not compatible with Labour’s rules or our aims and values.” yet Tories are? Labour has become an unfathomable mess, twisting itself into senseless rules akin to eastern Germany
tcliverpool – I think you are missing the point, an MP crossing the floor has very clearly cut his ties with the Conservative party. He made his choice.
Maybe you Should think about proscribing yourselves mr H ,because the labour party need De Nazifying.and some of the so called left wing socialists who worked with the fascist leader have been given a lesson in appeasment and collaboration backfiring.Sooner the labour party cease to exist the better.
Joseph – …….and yet you are the pretend leftie who is so obviously impressed by authoritarian dictators.
Putting the cat amongst the pigeons? Isn’t Stasi Starmer a member of JLM along with the vast majority of Labour MPs. providing evidence ‘en bloc’ ref. IHRA anti-Semitism to their chums in the EHRC?
The point is being missed by you steveH.
Which is that LP members have, once again, been subject to sanctions in which no recognised standard due process principles have been applied. An allegation is made and not tested with objective evidence. Simply deemed to be sufficient ‘proof’ on the basis of the allegation having been conveniently uttered as The Official Narrative (TON) and therefore applying the sanction with no due process.
You are clearly confused about what due process consists of. Its very simple, not rocket science. It puts the onus of proof onto the party making the allegation to prove the allegation. There is no obligation whatsoever for the accused party to prove a negative.
So tell us steveH, because we are all intrigued: “Why is this simple concept so difficult for you to understand? Is this deliberate on your part or are you naturally obtuse?”
Handy Mandy was in the Party, along with a few others, when the destructive seeds of p.c were sown. Euros all. Surely being an ex-party member demands expulsion. Didn’t ( Ooh, I’m always late and dishevelled, but I am an Academic like Footy) our Shirl say, ” I will never be in a party where Communists have a vote.”. Here comes Dr Death, the heavy breasted Foreign Secretary. Limehouse lefties. I’m pretty certain that Miranda, had close relations with the Trots while he was up Oxford. Circles comrades, ever decreasing. We are not a democracy but run by a movement that is extremist of the centre. Bolsheviks of a certain type. They’re fucking chameleons. Have a scan at the demoncrats, neo-whatever. Independants are winning wards all over and some of them are worth your votes. Our, Independent, up here in Newby, North Yorkshire, is a grand lad, and no mistake.
And while we’re on the subject of making choices to abandon that cesspit… How many have <chosen to leave without being affiliated to a proscribed group, bit merely in disgust at keefs’ autocratic methods, his ineffectiveness, impotency, incompetence and cowardice,?
His ambiguousness, his lies and his moral promiscuity…Or just because they despise keef in general?
And, y’know what? I applaud each and every one of them, too.
What, all 200,000 of them? And the 38 – 40,000 ‘in arrears’? Me too.
20% of the membership left under Corbyn. The membership was down to about 430k in Nov19
These figures like eveything else from the leaders office are lies and deceit from the fascist leader of the Labour party.Still no answers of the leaders bankrolled thirteen million of members hard earned money 💰…
Gone with the wind “.Starmer and the Evans gang should if theres any justice in Britain be held to account in a Court of law for misappropriation of members money and fraud..Theres also a serios charge of electoral fraud in the election of leader of the Labour party and diverting funds to stop the election of a labour government under jeremy Corbyn. to answer for.
Thank God the kittys empty when the labour party face the courts over the latest scam of farming out and disappearance of members and former members personal information again “Gone with the wind” .No Oscar for guessing where the labour party ends up .?
Joseph – You may have had a point if the above membership figures hadn’t have been published by Corbyn’s people whilst he was leader.
qwertboi…over 300k members have left. They have obviously stopped giving donations (down by £13m in 2019/2020 alone, now almost non existent) and Labour is bankrupt. Good riddance.
I live in hope that one day they might proscribe JLM.
LORDY!!
Anyone wanna report this blatant, outright antisemitic sentiment?? 😙🎶
Toffee – Good luck with that, I’ve always been open about my opinion that JLM should be disaffiliated.
On what grounds?
Toffee – I’ve also clearly stated why, why do you want to know?
Steve, I am only guessing. It seems fairly easy for members, long term members, and organisations on the left to be expelled. How hard can it be to disaffiliate organisations that aren’t in the party. Your rules are arcane and too full of legalese for a thick like me to decipher but surely it can be done? Cheers, Wobbly.
Wobbly – I agree with you about the rule book plus if you look you will find there is always a way around the rules.
I believe that no religious organisation should have any more influence than anyone else. By all means consult with religions but on an equal basis. There is absolutely no reason why any religion should have the privileged access and influence that being affiliated gives them at the expense of the wider membership.
It wouldn’t be a big deal to disaffiliate all the religious organisations from the party, there are only two of them 1 Jewish and 1 Christian. It is a nonsense that they even exist in what should be a secular Labour Party.
I have emailed the lottos bunker in southside with the info that a extremist blogger is calling for expulsion of JLM jewish labour members from the
Labour party that has shown real metal in removing these types of commys infesting the labour party…..god bless our dear leader a principled human rights lawyer from Surrey……can I come back now or just slither in?
Joseph, @ 6.00am.
Neil Coyle is currently suspended over alegations of racist remarks he made in a House of Commons bar to Henry Dyer, a journalist, who describes himself as British/Chinese.
When the origninal four groups were proscribed, Coyle tweeted –
“Not far enough. JVL should be gone too. And other outright Communists who have their own political party/ies they can ruin.”
Professor Avi Shlaim, Human rights lawyer Sir Geoffrey Bindman and Harold Immanuel, three long standing Labour members and supporters of JVL, wrote to Evans in September 2021 asking for disciplilnary measures to be taken against Coyle for his antisemitic remarks. They have been ignored.
The difference? The journalist, Henry Dyer was abused in the House of Commons (the Parliamentary Estate) which has it’s own set of rules and standards on the behaviour of members and the speaker quickly stepped in to investigate. Starmer/Evans had to be seen to take action to avoid criticism, but members do not have the same safeguard of a body to intervene when members are abused by the leadership. Rather than acting on behalf of the members, the NEC has become no more than the enforcement arm of a pair of dictators.
Double standards at every turn, so I suspect our resident troll will have nothing to worry over.
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/avi-shlaim-why-is-labour-ignoring-our-complaint/
Nemtona…Communists,Socialists left wing are hated by this filthy disgusting labour party and I have been astonished 😲that some think they can alter the fascists that lurk inside it.I am extremely disappointed that the socialist mps had neither the brain or the energy to form a ready made independent labour party .and seriously think that they will survive this very ruthless takeover of the party.and the members.in a undemocratic extremist group.of neo liberal elitists.They will soon sort out the working class if given half a chance…god help us if they ever get a chance at government.
Welcome home. I’m starting to miss Healy and the rest of the old right cold warriors. Slither aboard me hearties but mind out for the rats.
At this pace, I expect the Labour Party to proscribe the Labour Party, and everyone who ever were associated with the Labour Party will have to formally reject the Labour Party in order to remain in the Labour Party (and since the Labour Party is proscribed, then they will be suspended regardless).
It’s the Groucho Marx thing: he would never join a club that would lower itself so far as to allow him to become a member. And that is pretty well the way that the Blairites feel: ant party tainted by socialist connections, however vague or ancient, is suspicious.
And Dick Cheney told Tony that while he was getting his vice-presidential boots licked.
Internal Report anybody
Can you get a prescription for those fuckers
Doug – It looks like we are still waiting, I’ve no idea what Forde’s latest excuse is, have you?.
That would be the knights latest excuse mr H,but then again with a membership thats clinging on anything can happen and he knows he can do whatever he wants like all fascist leaders and get away with it.
Good article on the arrest of the miners leader in the Ukraine and the proscribing of many left wing organisations under the runaway leader of the Nazi Ukraine regime.in Miami beach Re..morning star a far from Russian supporting newspaper.disappointingly.but nonetheless trys to be unbiased even when describing Putin a man of mystery.and most certainly not a Communist.or a member of the Western New World order under the leadership of a senile old molester in Washington.
Putin is certainly not an opposition force (or even an antigen) to Davos, WEF, Klaus Schwab, Trilateral Commission and their Great Reset – don’t pin any hopes on him. 10 Reasons to Question the “Putin vs Davos” Narrative
People who still believe that SARS-CoV-2 produces a “killer disease” and, therfore, cannot admit that it is providing the Global Elite with the means for a scam, should read from reason 6:
6. PUTIN HAS DECLARED SUPPORT FOR GLOBALIZATION AND AGENDA 21….
7. PUTIN IS CLOSE FRIENDS WITH HENRY KISSINGER…….
8. PUTIN HAS TIES TO THE WORLD ECONOMIC FORUM Putin has been attending events organized by the WEF since the early 1990s….
9. PUTIN’S WAR IN UKRAINE IS ACCELERATING THE RISE OF CBDCS ALL OVER THE WORLD (CBDC = Central Bank Digital Currencies, the whole objective of the “great reset”)
10. THE WAR IN UKRAINE IS AIDING THE GREAT RESET…….
quertboi ITs a clear case of when theives fall out with Putin and the New world order.Hes realised that the elites didnt include him and he’s turned to protect Russia and those outside the Western world order from a Wolf at the door .
..I support the Russian people and pity the Ukraine people who have been asset stripped and used by a Comedian from his mansion house off colins avenue Miami beach.I bet the pigs gorging himself now in “Fatboys” restraunt at the 5doller special
.what a conman and comedian actor who couldn’t hack it as a serios politician in the arena so joined the Nazis.
Ah true enough. However, friends have reassured me, via pen, ink and cuttings, that the opposition are well aware of the manouevres taking place beneath the waves. I refer you to those in the Duma who’s insistence on the protection of their brothers and sisters, Russians, Roma and Red, from the Nazis forced him to act.
Kaema has a way of kicking you up the bum. AWL and LLA thought, so called, centalists believed in a broad church, suckers.
I won’t be shedding a tear for the AWL. Who needs enemies with friends like that? The ultimate in sectarian cults, they support zionism and are members of the Moniker Zelensky fan club. Matgamna was clearly the real life inspiration for John Cleese’s character Reg in the Life of Brian. I’m all for a broad church but not if it includes moonies who’ve left their critical faculties in the cloakroom.
Cuckoos in the nest one might say:
https://davehansell.substack.com/p/cuckoos-in-the-nest?s=w
When a group self identifying as ‘left’ are hanging their hat on Bellingcat as a credible source its obvious to a blind man on a galloping horse that what you have here is a classic example of ‘controlled opposition.’
Matgamma, Royston, WRP, Banda, Healy, Calinicos, Pluto we are talking about buckets of bacon. OK there was some Ghaddaffi(?) money but the rest? Interesting.
Isn’t this just reminiscent of Martin Niemöller?
It always ends in tears
‘I thought we were in charge’
‘How very dare they’
‘The peasants are revolting’
‘Oh fuck’
Labreb galloise….The whole labour party at the moment make me snigger and I recommend “life of Brian” as a grounding in political education for the new member they managed to find in a hospital bed strapped down last year.?Theyve told him to hang on to the straight jacket for conference in Oxted on the green this year….bring your own tent!.Momentum are holding a counter mtg in S.Godstone with a “World in one village” and a raffle for “guess whos the most AS leader of the Labour party”as dictated by the new junta?
On a practical note, if they had a functioning brain cell between them, they would install Bernie Sanders and JC to oversee the transformation from kleptocracy to democracy
A bloodless and civilised coup, who knows they could even grow to love Taxation and Society
Heres Valdomyr a former despot, now he is a farmer and sponsor of music festivals
Here’s Tony he builds Social Housing
Finally here’s Hank he has dedicated his zillions to installing broadband and clean water in remote areas of the world, that’s after they have cleared the minefields left behind by his predecessors
I wonder how long before Momentum gets proscribed too? Back in 2015 Jill Montford, a high up member of the AWL was in the EC of Momentum and very much supported by Jon Lasman.
Even when the new Momentum’s Constitution kicked in at the end of 2016 stating that only Labour Party members could be allowed to be Momentum;s members, Montford was allowed to stay as member and Chair of a Momentum’s group somewhere in South London.
I agree with labresbisgalloise’s comments, AWL despite been very “left”, is also very racist and Islamophobic.
Wouldn’t it be ironic if the NEC decides not to proscribe AWL?
“I wonder how long before Momentum gets proscribed too?”
I’d like to think, Maria, that Momentum has its finger on the LP pulse and will leave (with maybe three TU Gen Sec’s) quite soon lo stand behind a new successor party, rather than beecome so flacid, irrelevant and useless that the ‘new management’ can turn on them and get a DailyExpress star of approval.
qwertboi, the question is would the Trade Unions trust Momentum? I joined Momentum in the summer of 2016 (leave in 2021) and my impression was and still is that most of the leadership of Momentum didn’t have much time for the Trade Unions.
A few like Sam Tarry are pro Trade Unions, but he is very much the exception. Plus other left groups find increasingly difficult working with Momentum. Recently, it has been impossible to agree on a left slate because Momentum refused to endorse the candidate proposed by JVL..
“question is would the Trade Unions trust Momentum?” Good point MV. good point.
Whenever I’ve detected this I put it down to a ‘usual suspects’ explanation, i.e. that the ‘distrust’ was voiced by the sync-MSM and right-wing union officials. Re the Momentum distrust/disregard of the unions, yes it always puzzled me.
One thing is certain, if Momentum is not a key mover in the starmer-caused dysfunction of the Labour party, it would show itself to be irrelevant and contra- the motivation of its members (who, to a person should be demsocs/corbyn project supporters).
Me? I’m not sure that Momentum isn’t just an empty shell. Don’t know how much I trust it anymore.
Seeing as two of the organised initiatives proscribed last July (Labour In Exile and Labour Against the Witch Hunt*) no longer exist, having merged into the Socialist Labour Network, it looks like I’m going to be proscribed twice.
Despite informing a member of the NEC before last July’s decision (which this NEC member subsequently voted for) of my association with one of these organised initiatives I’m still waiting for the incompetents currently running this shit show to to follow through on this decision. But I’m not holding my breath given their performance so far:
https://davehansell.substack.com/p/mandering-the-gerry?s=w
A performance replicated all the way to the bottom of the hierarchy it seems from the incomprehensible gormless response I receive when I inform people canvassing me for votes in internal elections that I am not, under the Rules, eligible as a result of these decisions even though they are still taking my membership fee at what passes for a Head Office and are still, after eight months to act on information I have actually supplied them with.
One does not know whether to laugh or cry at these numpties running the shop. Can you imagine this lot in Government? Having already set the precedent internally they will have no trouble going after any citizen or voter who strays from whatever The Official Narrative (TON) happens to be at any one time – just like Trudeau in Canada did freezing bank accounts of people who donated small sums like $50 to the truckers protest last month. This lot would probably freeze the wrong bank accounts such is the scale their malevolent incompetence.
* It beats me why anyone would call themselves Labour Against the Witch Hun in the present context.
HTF can a group of imbeciles who cannot answer NO to the question ‘Can a women have a penis?’ organise a Witch Hunt when they cannot define what a “Witch” is?
‘left wash’: a new and valuable addition to the English language.
Stalin was Georgian not Russian.
indeed. He seems to be a folk hero in Georgia too. They have a museum dedicated to him. So a clear candidate for NATO membership?
Re the Forde report not being on the NEC agenda, my guess ((for what it’s worth) is that it has been delayed until after the May elections because of its potential impact on black and ethnic minority voters, and of course all voters. We’ll see when it’s published.
This assumes that Forde will do a Chilcot (attack on Iraq) rather than a Hutton (death of Kelly).
Incisive pt. about the timing. Paul Smith FWIW, even without Forde, I’m sensing that BAME members are more likely to be critical of starmer and painfully aware of the harm he’s doing to the party and its members/causes.
IF it’s ever published and whether it does a chilcott or a hutton (great expressions), arguably, it’s too late to restore members’ and voters’ confidence in starmer’s LP.
@ Paul Smith 11.13
Forde has said that the report not being published is not because of political interferrnce. Maybe it can’t be published because of something legal.
As a practicing barrister (and with a reputation to uphold), if Forde has found any wrong doing he is duty bound to report it to the authorities.
Also, Unite had published on their website their submission to the Forde Inquiry, with a list of damning questions about financial impropriety and democratic integrity. That page is now showing a 404 error, suggesting it has been pulled. Question is, why?
>>People who still believe that SARS-CoV-2 produces a “killer disease” and, therefore, cannot admit that it is providing the Global Elite with the means for a scam, should read from reason 6:
What the honest F? Flaming hell take that tin foil hat off it’s cutting off what little supply of blood is getting to your brain. Unless you can offer some evidence to back up your absolute loony conspiracy BS and no I don’t accept the usual American idiots BS that so many shovel onto the internet as some great evidence of your truth.
EVEDENCE back up by multiple experts or STFU!!!
I am sick and tired of coming onto a left blog and reading this drek. OK you don’t sodding believe we get it but for all that is holly, just keep it to yourself man. No one cares what BS you wish to fantasises about just what you spew out here endlessly!
You may well be correct. I am making an inspired guess, with all the caveats that entails.
404 Errors can be caused by external hacking, but yes we need to know why it exists. Is the Unite webmaster aware of the 404 I wonder.
Here is an extract from Ford’s latest (yesterday 29/03) letter to Evens and the NEC
I am writing to inform both you and the National Executive Committee of the Labour Party (“NEC”) that the content of my Inquiry Report is finalised.
All that is still to be undertaken is detailed checking for legal and factual accuracy prior to publication. I had hoped this would have been completed by 29 March but unfortunately this will not now be possible.
The Report will then have to be signed off by myself and fellow Panel members before delivery to you and then my attendance at, and presentation, to the NEC.
I will, of course, work with you and the NEC to agree rearranged timings for submission and my formal presentation.
I apologise to you and the membership for the likely slight delay, but it is imperative that the remaining vital tasks are completed.
It has been reported that nobody working for the party (including Evans) has seen the Forde Report yet.
Hoisted by their own petard