Facts correct misleading narrative again targeting Liverpool members
Members of Liverpool’s Riverside constituency Labour party (CLP) have told the SKWAWKBOX that the party’s regional office and the CLP’s executive broke Labour’s rules on multiple occasions last week to block motions of no confidence in Keir Starmer and acting general secretary David Evans.
The CLP had already been barred from discussing motions on the restoration of the Labour ‘whip’ to former party leader Jeremy Corbyn, but was blocked last week from voting on a motion of no confidence in both Starmer and Evans for their conduct over the matter, even though the motions were ‘competent’ under Labour’s rules – and the interference was compounded by the decision of the CLP’s vice-chair, who was chairing the meeting, to ignore the rules when members attempted to challenge her ruling and then to hold a vote of no confidence in her.
Members had tabled the motion of no confidence in Starmer and Evans after carefully-constructed motions of support for Corbyn had been ruled out, but these motions were also ruled out, with the regional representative informing the meeting that this was on the instructions of Evans – Evans ruling out a motion of no confidence in himself.
Members then put forward a motion to challenge the chair’s decision to accept the regional office interference in the CLP’s business. Labour rules say that if such a challenge is made, the matter must go to a vote immediately – and the chair is defeated if a two-thirds majority vote for the challenge. However, the challenge was ignored – leading to an attempt to move a vote of no confidence in the chair, which would have required only 50% plus one to carry. That was also ignored, despite the presence of a regional officer who in that instance should have intervened to maintain the party’s rules.
Members of the CLP accused officers of trying to be on both sides of the issue at once, with one member memorably describing them as ‘trying to ride two horses with one arse’.
Both the chair of the meeting and the regional representative were contacted for comment on Sunday. Neither has responded.
SKWAWKBOX view:
Moves by David Evans to block motions of no confidence in himself are farcical. Even worse is the Labour right’s readiness to abuse, ignore and break the rules in order to muzzle members and block their democracy.
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‘The nasty Labour Right just refuse to obey our Party Rules !’ wails the naive, rule-obeying, and always easily outmanoeuvred by the ruthless, cynical, Right, Labour Left ! And there you have it – in a nutshell – the sadly naive Labour Left – obsessed by that fantasy of ‘Party Unity at all costs’, only too willing to slavishly follow Party Rules, up against a profoundly corrupt, utterly cynical, Labour Right (including that fantasy sub-set that the Labour Left constantly try to ‘win over’ ie, the ‘Soft Left’) , that has always been quite prepared to split the Party , use the MSM to slander and discredit the Left, abuse Party processes to expel Lefties on the flimsiest of excuses , suspend entire Left-dominated branches for decades, throw entire Elections (as in 2019), just to retain or regain control of the political vehicle that provides them with their corrupt backhanders-for favours-done, lifelong gravy train.
If the last four years of constant Right Wing sabotage, and the utter craven submissive acceptance of this sabotage and vile abuse by the PLP ‘Left’, hasn’t convinced socialists that this now politically bankrupt and unelectable ‘Broad Church’ monstrosity that is the restored Tory-lite NuLabour Party is no way to build any sort of progressive radical Left politics in the UK, then they simply haven’t been paying sufficient attention – or are political masochists – like Jeremy and his PLP comrades seem to be – always putting ‘kissing the (Party) Whip’ in front of fighting for socialism .
I can’t disagree with your analysis. They must try another way. ANY WAY‼️‼️‼️
We must NEVER return to oneway compromise. NEVER. I’m still nervous though. There is a sense, decent “Left”, those with true “Labour” values are OBSESSED with pursuing what cannot be achieved. Not even by the nasty Tories who win elections. They never aim for some mythical “unity”. That obsession is an amateur pathetic trait that flies in the face of reality. The obsession also indicates impotent stubbornness and self-indulgence.
Society, counterintuitively, would collapse and die if we all calmly agreed with each other. It produces stasis. Unrefreshed. Possibly that is why great civilisations died. NB “Just when men say peace and security, the end will come”. To lie back and take opportunities for granted is irresponsible. In adults, that comes from being surrounded by a tiny unified clique. No good ever comes of that. Read about Thatcher at the end. Or Bliar’s “Sofa” government. Or May and now BloJonson. Once you become myopic and blinkered, especially shutting out challenging views instead of facing them, we’ve had it.
We should welcome the gift of disagreement with the Right and amongst ourselves. That’s how people in all other PRODUCTIVE areas of life, sharpen arguments = logic … reasoning. Clarify views, test them as scientists do ALL THE TIME.
That’s why you never hear me calling for posters to be banned. Yes some are tiresome and best ignored. But others eg SteveH / davidh / dick makinnon etc should be used as material on tap to develop our arguments. They are useful bits of tinder … coal to fuel our rebuttals🛑🛑🛑
Time is running out windchimes and the Conservative and unionist party feel that the plans are coming together with the help of the Labour party.That is how history will report it when the dismantling of freedom and democracy became the will of the people at the wim of the Neo liberal world alliance…Frightning times in Europe and the West and.even my wife and son are no longer convinced that its safe for us to travel especially as many of our friends seem to mesmerized by the government and media to take orders from the conservative regime,with the case of how high would you like.To me now veiwing from outside its already a police state and 1984 Orwellian society is no longer a sick dream in much of the UK,but reality.is in many ways far worse and its targeted at the working class and the the Socialist leaders.Chuck away that bloody rule book and your motions and support those expelled or sanctioned and litterly fight back just like the French.ITs almost like listening to somthing from the Stepford wives were friends are replaced with Robots in a nightmare far more horrifying than you would have believed only 1year ago..We will not be forced vaccinated by big pharma or walk around with a pass book or be chipped or monitored ,told when we can go out,have a we we and keep our mouths shut,and told all about the AS scam and how painful it is to be a jew in the Labour party…..all absolute bullshit.and a pack of lies.No we will probably never come back because we can’t and won’t even as the elderly put up with the abomination that the UK as become.and we will never be closed down or put down by a rushed vaccination programme to take even more tax payers money to prop up our “Betters” …..apart from that its a nice sunny fresh day here temps hovering around 30c and sorounded by sane people who havnt suffered 12 months of brainwashing,theyve been there done that before and half the population was murdered..Youve been warned.
Joseph – Thanks for your post, it illustrates just how out of touch you are with the UK. Perhaps your comment would have had a bit more credibility if you hadn’t chosen to live in a country that has endemic corruption and state capture woven into the fabric of both state institutions and commerce, one of the most corrupt countries in the world. A country that is ruled by a corrupt autocratic regime who are propped up by China and emulate their Chinese sponsors by locking up their opposition to remain in power.
These comedians have no limits.
I forsee the final PASOKification of Labour if this continues.
They don’t realise that one of the benefits of Corbynism is that it prevented the Labour Party from following it’s sister parties in Western Europe into single figures on all major political metrics.
Our centrists should reflect on the fact that they continue and will ever thus continue to offer nothing but overall decline.
Choose any centrist MP, and look at their constituency vote decline before 2017, and in 2019.
It’s all there.
Lundus 57 the so called “Centrist” MPs – there is nothing Centrist about them , they are right wingers every one- couldn’t care less about the decline of our party. They don’t really belong in it anyway as they don’t have Labour values.
They are there simply because it is their platform to the gravy train which brings in a really good employment package of salary ( 2 and a half times the national average) expenses, pension and working conditions – turn up and leave when you like, entertain your friends with subsidised food and drinks while you are there.
For many of them even this is not enough They get lucrative book deals, fees for appearing on Tv,for writing for newspapers for after dinner speeches. What have these greedy individuals got in common with us -absolutely nothing.
They call us anti-Semites, terrorist supporters , dogs scum etc and expect us to campaign and vote for them.
Many of them behave appallingly in other ways too.One has gone round saying she would stab Jeremy Corbyn in the front and another is a Holocaust denier who trivialised the Holocaust -the mass murder, deportation and wholesale theft, rape and enslavement of Jews under the Nazis -with disciplinary action instigated against her by the party.
The latest from the Right wing leadership is the suppression of free speech in the party and openly equating support for Palestinians with antisemitism with threats to expel 1000s and 1000s of us if we object to their mistreatment.
Well my message to the leadership is this – enjoy it while you can because as soon as the Covid crisis is over there will be a leadership challenge and you will both be out on your ears.
Correction – comment about the Holocaust denier should read “who trivialised the holocaust …….. by comparing it to disciplinary action”
Smartboy
The corrupt right wing of Labour exploit and take advantage of the lefts concerns of keeping the party together. They will stop at nothing to continue with the life they’ve become accustomed to.
About 4 years ago I told by a friend of their daughters experience attending a Young Labour Conference. Quite a few of the attendees spent most of the time networking. They saw the prospect of working in politics not as a vocation but of a way to earn lots of money. Corbyn was also leader and they detested him.
Strangely they were also hoping when and if a general election was called Labour would lose. They weren’t interested that the threat of a Tory government could have on the populations poor. No it was far more important stopping Corbyn becoming PM.
Thankfully there’s a decent left wing Young Labour Chair who stood up to the leadership when they tried to interfere
(Smartboy) Agree with all apart from the implication that ‘Labour values’ still exist, and your post Covid optimism for this now deeply corrupted and broken party. Some might say Labour has taken a backward step, but I rather think that following the brief and inspirational blossoming of socialism under Jeremy Corbyn, it has reverted to type.
Reply to Back of Beyond
Nothing you have said surprises me – I’m sure that your friend’s daughter had a real eyeopener at Conference. They are totally disgusting.
Reply to Noel Stevenson 12.
There are many of us in the party who have Labour values but unfortunately the majority of the PLP lack them – they have no decency, no fraternalism , no wanting to make the world a better place, no care for the poor, sick or elderly. That is why the PLP attacked Jeremy Corbyn and tried to destroy him as a human being, support illegal wars and occupations ,voted in tuition fees, abstained on the welfare bill etc
I hope I am not over optimistic about having leadership elections in which both Starmer and Rayner get “kicked out” before she can “kick out ” those in the party who support Palestinian human rights. If I am wrong and they are both here this time next year then I will quit the party. I left during after Tony Blair invaded Iraq and joined again to when we had a socialist leader Jeremy Corbyn. New Labour/ Centrists/ Blairites call them what you will genuinely sicken me.
Ludus57 they believe that the British electoral system of FPTP will delivered for Labour as it did for Biden in the US. The believe that between Tory and Labour people would carry on voting Labour regardless, because of the mantra that Labour is always better than Tories.
What the don’t realise is that the MSM didn’t like Trump and still it come close to prevail over Biden despite his mismanagement of Covid-19.
Once the Tories come to the realisation that Boris isn’t popular with the MSM, they did what they did with Thatcher and May replace them and select someone that would attract the vote. Let’s us not forget that Major managed to win the next General Election after Thatcher stood down in 1992. The reason they didn’t win in 1997 is because they didn’t have anyone at hand to replace Major with and the incredible charisma of Tony Blair that even got the support of the Murdoch’s Press.
Right now, Labour is engaging in a civil war, under a leader that is uninspiring to most ordinary people, a leader that isn’t truste the a substantial number of the members of the Labour Party in view of all the CLPs that are passing motions either critical to Evans and Starmer or supportive of Corbyn and the actions Evans is being forced to take to try to stamp the rebellion.
All the legal cases in the pipe line against the Labour Party. The allegation of antisemitism in the Party and new ones on Islamophobia are going to continue to emerge.
At some point unless Starmer’s Labour Party produces an electoral miracle in May, the Trade Unions are going to realise that Labour isn’t in a fit state to fight to victory at the next General Election and will start to abandone the Party to its fate.
There’s something distinctly Orwellian now about what used to be the Labour Party. Animal Farm is being reenacted, with Starmer the head pig overseeing a sinister but very obvious trashing of the old Labour Party values before our very eyes:
‘Four legs bad, two legs good.’
Actually it might not be unreasonable to suggest that Starmer ably assisted by Evans is dispensing with ANY values, democracy and free-speech already casualties of this right wing Israeli hugging Tory tribute band.
I was in that crowd shown above. There is no politician in Britain other than Jeremy Corbyn who could raise a crowd like that in their support. It’s a pity that many on the left didn’t realise or accept that there were plotters in the form of the JLM the LFI and Blairites who even then, were carrying out their plans to undermine him. I’m not sure that even he realised how determined they were to get rid of him.
Jack T, is was a real pity that the right of the Party took your concerns and your European identity and decided to manipulate and abuse many decent socialist like you, putting the mirage of a “People’s Vote” so that you would believe the mirage was possible so that they could bring the Corbyn’s project down.
I am proudly pro EU and a member of Diem25, but perhaps because I am must older that many of the young Corbynistas pursuing the mirage of the People’s Vote realised what it was and the most likely result: a Tory Government at the next GE and a very bad Brexit deal or no deal at all.
Please, Jack T never forget that Starmer betrayed us all. Were is the People’s Vote now? Ready to abstain or to vote in favour of the Tory Brexit deal.
Maria Vazquez, I too am quite long in the tooth, although I’ve lost a few since going to the dentist this week.
I am under no illusions at all about a ‘people’s vote’. Some may have had the motives you describe but the vast majority of Labour members wanted to remain in the EU and because the mood in the country against Brexit was growing, they saw a cofirmatory vote as a perfectly democratic and legitimate way of doing it. It was the right wing and some on the left who feared losing the vote who pushed the antidemocratic story which was given vast support in the right wing media. Just because some on the right of the Labour Party and I’m well aware of their other motives, supported a confirmatory vote, it did not make it any less desirable.
Jack T of course the majority of Labour members wanted to remain in the EU, but it was never going to work. DIEM25 even warned against been seduced by the People’s Vote and spoke in favour of respecting the Referendum result.
Yes most Labour members including myself were staunchly pro remain. However, 2/3 of Labour held seats voted to leave the EU. Although, most Labour members were willing to respect the 2017 Labour’s manifesto to enact Brexit ,providing that we remained in the custom union and close to EU’s regulations, others mainly young members new to political membership, were persuaded that Brexit could be undone and supported the People’s Vote, believing that the Party had to represent the views of the members, rather that the need for the Party to be electable in the 2/3 of Labour held seats that voted to leave the EU.
As a member of Momentum, I tried to persuade young people that getting a People’s Vote was far fetched, it wasn’t on Labour’s gift rather, it was up to the Tories and they would never agreed to it.
The reply was that it was worthy to push for it, never heading the warning that for Labour to support a People’s Vote would result in losing the next General Election and leaving the EU with a bad deal or no deal.
Starmer was the People’s Vote High Priest, he persuades 1000s of young Corbynistas to support him and vote for him in the leadership, only to let them high and dry.
Maria we are now getting to the nub of the problem i.e. chicken and egg. Why did seats which had previously voted Labour return Tories?. Was it because they objected to a confirmatory vote or was it because they had previously been persuaded that Corbyn wasn’t fit to be Leader of the LP and therefore not PM material because of his failure to fight back against the unrelenting smears from the Israel lobby, reinforced by an opportunist right wing?
There is plenty of evidence that most conviction Labour voters stayed with Labour, therefore those seats which changed hands did so for two main reasons. a) Voters who voted Labour out of habit rather than conviction changed their vote because of the damage done to Labour by Farage with his deliberate scares about immigration and b) The attacks upon Corbyn’s competence by the Israel Lobby.
Lexiters will never admit this because for their own reasons, they wanted out of the EU just as much as did Farage. They are therefore determined to blame Remainers for Labour’s defeat, which in effect lets them and the Israel lobby off the hook.
Jack T,
1-Fact: these same seats voted Labour in 2017 with a Labour manifesto that promised to enact Brexit.
2-Fact Corbyn allowed the Party Conferences in 2018-2019 to do a U turn on Brexit in favour of “Constructive Ambiguity”
I will argue that it persuaded many that voted for Brexit and wanted Brexit, that Corbyn wasn’t PM’s material, because he couldn’t control the Party. Corbyn allowed his followers to reject a policy in the 2017 manifesto, because they didn’t like it and to hell with the voters that voted Labour and wanted Brexit..
So in answer to your question it was both: they voted Tory because they didn’t want a confirmatory vote on Brexit and they didn’t have confidence in Corbyn either because he couldn’t control the Party; no even his own church.
Many of the Labour members that vociferously demanded a People’s Vote, were Corbyn’s supporters. How on earth was he going to be able to govern? The right of the Labour Party was clearly against him and openly sabotaging him constantly and the left wanted to do a U turn and remain in the EU.
Let us be honest here, if Labour has won the General Election in 2019 Labour would have pursued a policy of remaining in the EU. I never supported a People’s Vote but, if we have won the GE in 2019 I would have campaigning for remaining in the EU on the People’s Vote, I would have never accepted a Brexit deal in preference to remaining in the EU.
Hence, in the red wall, they voted Tory to ensure that their vote was respected, they wanted Brexit done and they knew that Corbyn in government wasn’t going to deliver Brexit. You and I and many others were ready to do our almost to prevent the UK leaving the EU and we will have forced Labour to campaign for Remain.
Maria, “Hence, in the red wall, they voted Tory to ensure that their vote was respected, they wanted Brexit done…..”
Agreed but my point is why? I contend it was because they were told a pack of lies by Farage and the Israel Lobby. Certain Labour MPs did not try hard enough to debunk those lies because they too wanted Brexit.
You and I know that Brexit will be a disaster for Britain, therefore no matter what Labour said and I agree we were all over the place, any democratic way of opposing Brexit was legitimate. A confirmatory vote with the option to remain was perfectly democratic, particulaly as by then, the mood in the country had started to change.
No matter what was in Labour’s manifesto re Brexit, it would have been absolutely legitimate to have it altered by democratic methods but for some, it was too democratic to give people another option.
In politics it is often how strongly and coherently a message is presented which wins support. It wasn’t the potential of Labour offering a confirmatory vote which lost votes, it was because the Brexit Left and Brexit Right in the Party combined to make it appear to be anti-democratic to have a vote on a deal with the option to remain. How many times have we heard politicians say the British people want this or the British people want that when in effect it is what the politicians want? In this case Corbyn didn’t make it clear enough exactly what he wanted which left the field open for the anti-democratic squad to get their message across.
Jack T, of course they were told a pack of lies, when do the Tories tell the truth? We know they are lying their lips are moving. Where the Tories telling the truth at the last GE in 2019?
The right wingers in the Labour Party aren’t much better, aren’t they? Are the telling the truth when the portrait our Party as a nest of antisemites? Of course, their is antisemitism within the Party and a single antisemite is one too many but 0.3% of our members under investigation for alleged antisemitism, I would argue it doesn’t make the Party a nest of antisemites.
The fact is 52% voted to leave and their vote wasn’t taken into consideration. How can you knock on doors and persuade people to vote because it is important, because it can change things; if when they vote against what we want, we call them idiots, racist etc, trying to undue their vote.
I would argue that it would have been better to accept the result of the Referendum, the commitment made on the 2017 Manifesto and start talking about the kind of Brexit, Labour would have delivered in opposition to the Tory Brexit we are going to have.
I know you aren’t going to be persuaded that the left of the Party shouldn’t have entertain supporting the People’s Vote, you have too much skin on the game. I would like to point out that very much like the Brexetiers, you don’t wish to accept that you were wrong in supporting the People’s Vote in very much the same way that they didn’t wish to accept either that the were wrong in voting Brexit.
I believe without the left of the Labour Party engaging in demanding the People’s Vote, we will be leaving the EU but, it would have been with by far a better deal an Labour in government with Corbyn as PM.
What do you have to show for following the carrot that was the People’s Vote? Happy with the result?
1-Tories in government,
2-a non deal or a very bad deal Brexit
3-Starmer is the leader of the Labour Party.
4-Austerity round two
“plans to undermine him.” The plans were open. Mandelson said it openly “wake up everyday thinking of new ways to undermine him” etc.
At conference after 2017 election, it was known then that Twatson’s cabal was doing their best to make us lose.
Yet on the stage Twatson was mocking singing “Oh Jeremy Corbyn”. Twatson then admitted that he did not think Jeremy could do so well. A female staff member from Twatson’s team gave an interview admitting their operation against Jeremy. All of that was in 2017! It was ALL VERY open. From the very beginning. Once Jeremy got on the ballot the so called CAA presented a bunch of stuff to the Right Wing to get Jeremy disqualified. It was all very open. That is why i joined. Anticipating that trey were serious operations to sabotage by any means.
But the overriding instinct which you could see on the stage at conference was the strange desperation … to be loved by the saboteurs. Disturbing and embarrassing. Dianne Abbott said a few weeks ago when she referred to Starmer as Mr Remain. She said Jeremy did everything to love them but “they did not love him back”.
My question is why? Whats the source of that strange delusion? What is the reason after everything to try to get a peerage for Twatson. A bit of slime at the top of the list of donations from Peter Chinn ❓❓❓ Peerage for McNicol. Do you understand any of that??? I don’t. It’s one thing to not fight off abusers because of fear. But explain the desperation enable them, to kiss, comfort, save and reward them❓❓❓
Too true, windchimes, the PLP ‘Left’ have always behaved like the emotionally trapped ‘Battered Wife’ ie, – , so much in love with the constantly abusive partner that she constantly forgives the abuse – and fruitlessly believes that if only she can be just a bit more ‘loving and submissive’, the abuse will finally stop. But of course , as in any abusive relationship, or the Labour Party – the abuse never stops . The ONLY answer is for the abused partner to LEAVE – and build a more fruitful life elsewhere . Unfortunately Jeremy and his lifelong career tame PLP ‘Lefties’ will never leave – and will always choose to ‘kiss the whip’. Tragic.
And as for that sad pro EU fanatic, Jack T – still trying to blame the ex Labour Leave-voting Heartland voters (crushed by the neoliberalism the EU and its unlimited labour supply rules facilitate) , and the tiny minority of Labour Party socialists who constantly warned of the clear consequences of Labour betraying its 2017 promise to ‘Respect the Referendum Result’ – for our catastrophic 2019 defeat. Own it , dunderhead – your, and your co-thinkers, EU fanaticism destroyed Jeremy’s credibility, and gave Labour back to the corrupt Right under the Trilateral Commission’s man, Starmer. Maria Vasquez is spot on in her recent posts – and uniquely honest about the culpability of the EU-loving Labour LEFT in falling for the Mandelson/Campbell, People’s Vote bear trap. . .
Serious question: Why do you two cnuts bother coming on to a left-wing blog when ALL you EVER do is criticise and castigate and find fault with the left, just about ALL of which is fraudulent bollox.It doesn’t make sense, unless of course yur both fascist shills trying to damage and destroy the left from the ‘inside’, from within (whilst yur fascist chums in the MSM do so from the ‘outside’). Why don’t you BOTH fuck off and form your OWN party, and take all your negative shit with you. Cheers
Put your money where your big fat fascist mouths are!
Are you referring to me, and some other socialist poster (comrade windchimes perhaps ?) Allan Howard, you sad , vulgar, ignoramous ? If you really think anyone who actually attempts to analyse the , surely manifestly evident, total failure of the ‘Corbyn Left Surge’ of 2015 to 2019, and comes to the same conclusion as that renowned Marxist academic , Ralph Miliband, in his iconic 1968 tome, ‘Parliamentary Socialism’ , ie, that the always dominant , corrupt, Right Wing careerists in the ‘broad Church’ PLP and Party machine, will always be prepared to destroy the Party rather than allow it to be a vehicle for socialist policies, — must be a ‘fascist’ or a ‘cnut’ (sic) , then you simply expose your simple-minded lack of any historical or socialist analytic ability.
Go away you silly little boy, do some deep reading, ‘Parliamentary Socialism’ for starters, and then you might be able to actually put together some sort of rational argument to justify your crude and fact-free, verbiage.
Sadly it was the political weaknesses and tactical failures of the, almost entirely middle class, EU-loving, (mainly merely Left Liberal ,NOT socialist) ‘Corbynite Left’ as much as the constant sabotage of the Labour Right , that destroyed the potential of the ‘Corbyn Surge’. Not surprising that those same Left Liberals who actively colluded with the RIght to force Jeremy to agree to adopt the electorally suicidal 2nd Ref and Remain policy in 2019, get rather shirty when reminded of their gross folly. Better by far to simply scream ignorant abuse at the few socialists who pointed out, (on Skwawkbox and elsewhere) the profound political weaknesses of the mainly Left Liberal, not socialist, ‘Corbyn Surge’, and the obvious consequences of adopting Remain in 2019 on our Heartland Leave-supporting working class voter base, from the get go – rather than being honestly self-critical and ‘owning the Labour defeat’ !
Jack,please stop talking out of your arse on the Brexit vote, you make yourself look a bloody fool. To still be in denial about the central role the policy change for the ’19 election is plain idiocy. Even Starmer and the rest of the right wing filth recognise the effect the second vote policy had in the critical constituencies.
John Thatcher. You have a point of view which is blinding you from considering exactly what I’m saying. If you read my posts properly, I’m not saying that the change in policy didn’t make a difference, what I’m arguing about is why it did so and if it had been handled correctly, it needn’t have done. Don’t be so quick to insult before you understand the issue.
When I was about 19 a friend nagged me to go with him to a “money-making” presentation the nature of which he wouldn’t disclose.
I hadn’t even heard of pyramid selling but saw through it in seconds and went back about a dozen times to disrupt the shiny-suited bullshitter’s pitch by explaining the scam to his audiences.
They were blatantly conning specifically working people looking to get ahead into investing their life’s savings in some garbage overpriced ‘magic’ detergent called SWIPE and persuading friends and neighbours to buy in smaller quantities and sell it door to door.
It was obvious the ones who invested earliest and at the highest levels of the pyramid would make money but nobody else would.
Labour’s current crop of bullshit-pedlars remind me of that slimy-tongued fucker in his Hong Kong ten dollar suit.
David McNiven, yes, snake oil salesmen, just like Farage and others who conned so many into voting for Brexit, which was so obviously against their best interests.
It was only “obviously against the(ir) best interests” of those who had no conception of the alternative of socialist democracy.
And obviously that doesn’t include you: you are always eager to defend the EU-neo-liberal and increasingly dominated by ultra right wing eastern european states vying to start hostilities with Russia- because you regard it, and probably correctly, as a counterweight to the sort of rule the Tories (and Blairites) offer when there is nothing to rein them in.
But that is to take a very pessimistic view: if the UK wants a socialist government, wants to use taxes and the power of the purse to reverse the centuries of dispossession that has made the UK one of the most unequal and unfair countries in the world then it will have to break away from the EU and its rules which are designed to preserve capitalism and to erase the last traces of socialist legislation.
Did you support the Labour Manifesto?: Did you want to re-socialise those vital natural monopolies such as the transport system and the power utilities, which Adam Smith agreed should be in public ownership? To do so within the EU would have been impossible. As would the re-nationalisation and de-commercialisation of the NHS.
The EU that you and other Remainers talk about no longer exists, indeed it never did except as a slogan in the mouths of ‘social marketeers’. Nor can it ever do so- the EU is not open to democratic reform. It is, and always has been a sub-imperial institution, a project conceived by imperialist in Washington and imposed on a Europe prostrate after the war.
Socialism in one country may be impossible but Socialism in twenty countries, most of them following the orders of the EU Central Bank and wedded to US imperialism is so9mply not on the agenda. And any socialist pretending otherwise is either fooling himself or making cheap debating points and wasting our time.
Well said Bevan, couldn’t have put it better myself. The EU was a construct of the forunner to the CIA and they bankrolled it for decades (that’s official) . It was to control Eurpean countries and prevent them from being influenced by the Soviet block. But you will hear howls of ‘we needed to stay in and fight for socialism within the EU ‘ (LOL).
American policy was to promote a United States of Europe, sponsored by Winston Churchill, but it was never formed. The committee was later used as a discreet way to funnel CIA funds (by the mid-1950s, ACUE was receiving roughly US$1,000,000 per year) to organizations supporting European federalism such as the Council of Europe, the European Coal and Steel Community, and the proposed European Defence Community.[4]
An article in The Daily Telegraph in September 2000 noted, “The State Department also played a role. A memo from the European section, dated June 11, 1965, advises the vice-president of the European Economic Community, Robert Marjolin, to pursue monetary union by stealth. It recommends suppressing debate until the point at which ‘adoption of such proposals would become virtually inescapable’.”
I have read this elsewhere also. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Committee_on_United_Europe
bevin, what you fail to realise is that there are snake oil salesmen on the left and on the right. You sound like one of those Little Englanders who think we can exist alone on our little island in a Socialist paradise. If it were possible, I would be at the head of the queue to support it. The right and some on the left characterised the EU as some sort of bogyman when in fact they were our partners and we theirs. Did you ever read the letter to Jeremy Corbyn from the left groups in the EU begging us to stay and work with them?
Lexiters never fail to bring into the discussion the dogwhistle EU/neoliberal argument as you have just done. There are certainly neoliberals in the EU, it’s not perfect but despite what the right and some on the left say, the EU was constituted in such a way as to make it as democratic as possible. Britain had more say in and had more approval for its involvement in EU legislation than did almost any other country. In fact a good argument could be made to show that the EU is Socialism in action. Taking the macroeconomic view, the richest countries pay most to be members but the benefits of being in the EU are shared by all. The result being that the poorest countries are helped to improve, which is a win win because it expands the capability for trade for all members.
In the EU, with the cooperation of other left wing groups to argue for it and with a Labour government, we could have nationalised our utilities whilst remaining but again, Lexiters because of their blinkered short sighted views, not accepting that the EU continues to evolve, kept telling everyone it was an impossibility.
Again, you use the Farage argument about the unfairness in Britain and what has the EU done for us? when in fact it’s the fault of decades of right wing governments and policies here which have done the damage. I had to smile when you mentioned the EU being wedded to US imperialism, do you realise how daft you sound? Why do you think Farage and other right wingers, particularly in the Tory government, wanted us out of the EU if not to drive us closer to the USA?
I often found when canvassing for Labour that some who voted to Leave had either ulterior motives or they hadn’t a clue what they wanted, apart from repeating the mantra to bring back control of our laws, borders and money. Ask them which laws and they would say either they didn’t know or mumble something abou the European Court of Human Rights, which has nothing to do with the EU. Ask them about borders and they would complain about immigrants blocking housing, schools and the NHS, all Farage dog whistles. Some were even arch patriots and royalists who saw the EU as being a threat to the Royal Family, it’s their idea of sovereignty. One common view was “well we were all right before” when in fact they forgot or didn’t know that Britain was once known as the ‘sick man of Europe’. Someone even told me they wanted to leave so that capital punishment could be restored here because it’s not allowed in the EU – the Priti Patel view.
There are plenty of well informed lefties, such as Craig Murray, Ken Loach and Manuel Cortez etc., who think that leaving the EU was self-inflicted madness. Shortly they will be proven to have been correct.
By the way, our total contributions to the EU since 1973 have been £215 billion.
Our total return, according to the CBI has been £3.2 trillion.
Since 2016 the total spent on Brexit has been £203 billion!!!
Apologies for waisting your time.
JackT, Covid was something of a break for the Tories, distracting everyone from the approaching disaster of Brexit as it did.
It also gave the Tories arguments, however specious, to divert criticisms on both fuck ups.
“No, it was Labour’s constant interference in Brexit that prevented us from giving all the resources to Covid we’d have liked”
“No, without Labour demanding more resources for Covid we’d have settled Brexit months ago.”
Problem Jack T……I identify as being European & like Dennis Skinner & Chris Williamson I voted Brexit. You & Starmer demand a 2nd vote because we got the 1st one wrong? A certain arrogance in this argument.
Steve Richards, I’m afraid the arrogance belongs to you. To deny people the option to change their mind, especially on such an important issue as Brexit is arrogance of the first order. You and I may have not wanted to alter our vote because we had both considered the options carefully and arrived at different conclusions but there were many who were unsure at the time and would have liked the opportunity to change, one way or the other.
Have you never bought something and then returned it because for whatever reason it was unsuitable for the purpose you intended? Would you deny others that option? Brexit will affect you, your children and their children’s children and it was important that people did not make their decision based upon either false information or lack of information or both.
Brexiters who did not want another vote often ask if we should just just keep on voting for ever? It’s a childish point to disguise their arrogance at not wanting the true case to be heard for fear that the propaganda pumped out by Domminic Cummings on behalf of Brexit would be trashed.
Democracy and fair play is served, only when the electorate have all the facts upon which to base their choice.
evans blocking any no confidence votes in him reminds me when I was a kid and used to play ‘tic’ in primary school. Didn’t wanna be ‘on’ when you got ‘ticked’ and you’d shout ‘ I’m BARLEY’ as if it gave you some sort of immunity.
Or when the other kids were playing with water pistols/old washing up liquid bottles and you’d plead: ‘But me ma said I’m not allowed to get wet’.
Where’s the little fella to offer us all the benefit of his wisdom in defence of this latest puerile shithousery? I suppose to him it’s just a ‘democratic aberration’ or something…😕
Bunch of cryarsing, weakling, spoilt little bastards, they are.
(The Toffee). ‘Barley!’ Bloody hell that takes me back!
Aye.
Say you’re ‘barley’ to stammer and he’d likely reply: ‘ It’s NOT “you’re barley”; it’s you’re Balinese’.
I doubt they even played ‘tic’ in his school. In fact, I doubt they had any sort of recreation – given he grew up to become a right po-faced blert.
So guidance as to how to run a meeting, as laid out in Citrine, ‘The ABC of Chairmanship’, was discarded at the convenience of the chair. Citrine of course later became general secretary of the TUC and was on the right of the movement.
If the left had done this we can be assured it would now be in the Guardian and BBC, not to speak of the Conservative press.
Such behaviour must be a breach of party rules?
If the party machinery denies you a vote of no confidence then walk the flipping hell out…!
FFS they are showing complete contempt for the rules and membership and you are letting them get away with this BS!!!
Stand up for yourselves and tell them NO vote, NO point in being here, NO point in my membership and certainly you can forget my vote and assistance when you need help. No point in paying your dam wages above all….
Tell em, pops! 👍
Labour CLPs should immediately convert to Chris Williamson’s new party in the making, leaving Labour party membership en masse. Without the local CLPs / branches, how then can the Labour MP (if he is in office in that CLP) exist?
Certainly Labour CLPs without a Labour MP in the job, should convert to Chris Williamson’s new party in the making, leaving Labour party membership en masse.
If there are no legal rules, then the local structure does not exist.
I’d prefer simply “Socialist Coalition” to Trade Union Socialist Coalition, but not that keen on either name, coalition having the history it does.
Doesn’t seem to be much momentum (small m) behind CW that I can see, though I wish there were.
I so wish the left would get its act together so I can get my wallet out again.
Maybe a full page or even two page ad in one of what used to be broadsheets – with all the signatories we’d want and none of those we wouldn’t want might get the ball rolling?
I’m thinking maybe in the form of a letter to Jeremy Corbyn and selected others asking them to jump ship, asking members who’d move with them to declare their willingness to move their contributions to the new party, and further declare that it’s a travesty there is currently no party an honest socialist can vote for.
I wonder if gov.uk would allow a petition on those terms?
Comrade Jack T……..you accuse Brexiteers of being ’emotional’ as opposed to those intellectuals like yourself who voted Remain. I see your point, the class war is over & those clever neo-liberal globalists will continue to use cheap labour to pursue Blair’s dream. Even the illiterate working classes will one day say enough! Pity Starmer didn’t support Jeremy’s plan, but there appears to be another agenda.
Steve, you are skating on thin ice there, getting close to Farage’s attacks on immigants. That’s the first time anyone’s called me a intellectual, even if it was sacasm 🙂.