Analysis

Starmer’s desperation to run from left policies mean even Tories can pose to his left

Starmer runs away from left policies while Tories rip off Corbyn’s manifesto

Keir Starmer’s non-oppositional approach to opposition meant that last week both LibDem leadership candidates were able to position themselves well to the left of Labour, with both Ed Davey and Layla Moran arguing emphatically in a televised debate in favour of a ‘Universal Basic Income’ as a means of fuelling an economic recovery while protecting the vulnerable.

But Starmer’s scramble to distance himself from Jeremy Corbyn’s popular policies is even allowing the Tories to outflank him on the left – and while nobody should trust that the Tories will ever do something that genuinely improves the lives of the poor and vulnerable at the cost of the richest, Rishi Sunak’s announcement of a plan to raise taxes on the wealthy allows him to create an illusion that will fool many.

And because Starmer has refused to back tax rises for the rich, he finds himself on the right of the Tories.

Johnson and co stealing Corbyn’s policies is neither new nor surprising. Labour’s policies under Corbyn were always hugely popular, in spite of the Tories’ and the media’s shameless attacks and misrepresentation. And as soon as Corbyn was safely on the way out, Boris Johnson stole those policies – whether on financial investment or free broadband – equally shamelessly, to increase his appeal.

But Starmer has been running away for them, chasing the Labour right’s delusion that the public doesn’t want what the left offered. Johnson and Sunak know better and even if they have no intention on delivering on the substance of those policies, they’re eager to seize the appearance of them, while Starmer vacates the field and lets them play at being left.

Being outmanoeuvred by the LibDems is appalling. Allowing the Tories to outflank Labour on the left and cloak their murderous and totalitarian intentions in left clothing is inexcusable.

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115 comments

  1. Starmer could be next PM, depending on how big a townhalls Boris makes of Brexit.

    1. Chris Mooney, Starmer would never get Scotland back and I seriously doubt it that he will manage to rebuild the “red wall”. Where the parliamentary seats are going to come for?

      1. Good point, Starmers’ only chance is getting elected on an anyone but the Tories vote.

      2. Although following our defeat in Dec19 we’ve been left with awful lot of ground to make up and none of us would wish to have the starting point we have now with the Tories having an 80 seat lead I do think you are underestimating Labour’s chances of electoral success, the polls all seem to indicate that Keir Starmer is very significantly more popular with the electorate than his predecessor and also according to the latest poll Labour have reduced the considerable polling lead the Tories enjoyed 5 months ago to more or less zero. Regardless of your personal opinion of Keir surely these are plus point in electoral terms.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadership_approval_opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#2020_2

      3. SteveH – “the polls all seem to indicate that Keir Starmer is very significantly more popular with the electorate than his predecessor”

        No, what the poles seem to show is that Starmer is more popular with the establishment including the media who then direct the sheep. Also, that Bozo really is a Bozo.

      4. You are of course entitled to your opinion but I remember Karie Murphy proudly announcing that she was going to ignore the polls when she took charge of the campaign strategy for the 2019 GE and look where that got us.

      5. Steve h… Does nothing but state opinion polls as fact, then when pulled on it, tells people they’re entitled to their opinions…

        But hey! Merely reducing an opinion poll lead by mimicking Tory policies and offering them your full support to the worst government in history in more than good enough for the imbecile.

      6. Chris Mooney.
        That like friending Gary Glitter, as he is not as bad as Saville.

      7. SteveH “…the polls all seem to indicate that Keir Starmer is very significantly more popular with the electorate than his predecessor…”

        Everything else being equal that would be a reasonable point – but everything else WASN’T equal, was it?
        Nobody has been lying about Starmer – or his version of Labour – every half-hour on the BBC for three years straight.
        That’s Starmer’s side of Labour lying, the Tories lying, Israel lying BIG TIME and ALL the media – ALL lying.
        Fair comparison in your eyes though, is it?

      8. David – but it is what it is regardless of the reasons. It should also be noted that the best approval score that Jeremy ever achieved throughout his whole tenure as leader was -1.

      9. SteveH
        “Although following our defeat in Dec19 we’ve been left with awful lot of ground to make up”
        Ground which was CREATED by Starmer and his fellow New-Labour Tory Party, relentlessly for 5 years!
        The International Elites and MSM, The Vote LEAVE lot, The FBPE, PV, 2Ref fools, USA, Israel, UK Governments, etc, etc, etc ALL LINKED!

        “none of ‘us’ would wish to have the starting point ‘we’ have now”
        Who is this ‘US’ you refer to UK Labour is a Democratic Socialist Party, Starmer and his New-Labour Tory Party are Neoconservative “Centrists” Thatcherite, that is Polar Opposite Politics, THAT is Polar Opposite Parties! There can be NO ‘US’, ‘US’ was destroyed when Blair gnawed his way in to the UK Labour Party dragging his, Thatcher and Reagan’s Neoconservative Monster “Centrism” in behind him. The starting point was created by The New Labour Tories, no point making an issue over it!

        “Tories having an 80 seat lead I do think you are underestimating ‘Labour’s’ chances of electoral success”
        Many Socialists, Communists, Anarchists whether in or out of Labour are extremely alarmed by the ferocious international onslaught on Democratic Socialism in the Labour Movement, by a Parasite infestation of Neoconservative “Centrists” all connected directly to the elites.
        Many have decided that the only remedy would be to VOTE THEM OUT, so if you think times are tough for “Centrists” now with an 80 seat Majority (which they fought 5 years to get), wait until next GE when the PEOPLE give the Conservatives 172 Neocon “Centrist” TORY seats. We expect to win back 10/20 Socialist seats from the Conservatives, added to our current 30 that would be more than enough to wake a few more sleepers up. AND BANISH ALL Neocon “Centrists” and Movements!
        I figure that if “Centrists” Fought so hard to prevent a UK Labour Party Elected in GE17/19 and Gifting the Conservatives Victory it would only be fair to give them what they wanted all along and kindly give them another 10/15 years of Conservatives, until the People’s Party is speaking for the People once again!
        Many of us are already used to the suffering a few more years of misery won’t phase us! What needed to happen a long time ago and is happening now, and that is that the breadline is shooting up the pay scale and MANY comfortable “Centrists” are starting to feel what we warned them about already and in another 10 years they’ll will be fully awake and scrapping in in the dirt with ‘US’ for scraps from above!

      10. HateHate – Thanks for your entertaining comment, it proved to be an amusing interlude to my day. I’m still smiling whilst I type this. Have you managed to find a credible leader to coalesce behind yet, where are you hiding your 30 pretend MPs (notably well short of the number required for a leadership challenge) and has anybody actually got around to asking them if they want to leave the Labour Party for political obscurity and defeat.
        One of these days the penny will drop why you and your joke comrades from the Tooting Popular Front haven’t enjoyed the electoral success you oh so earnestly believe should be yours.

      11. SteveH I am always happy to amuse and bring joy long may it last! Our 30 “Pretend” MPs are those who have been speaking up for THE PEOPLE in HoC, since Jeremy stood down, more than the 172 Greed-mongering Self Interested New Labour Tories combined, EVER did! There are more leadership and power in just one of any of the Socialist MPs, REAL Democratic Socialists not PRETEND New Labour TORY Socialists!
        It was not Jeremy or Socialism that failed THE PEOPLE. It was the Conniving, Scamming, Scheming and Sabotage of the Elite and MSM Connected New Labour Tories! SO PLEASE do not expect the Millions of “Comrades” you New Labour Tories, so Hate to do you one singe favour at the GE Polls only to see the likes of you squirm with twisted pleasure, NO PET! We WILL vote CON TORY for EVERY 172 New Labour Party seat! We WILL cut the Cancer out of THE PEOPLE’S Party once and for all! Yes that means 10/15 Years more suffering, but with that suffering comes awakening! With that suffering comes unity! We have suffered 41 Years of TORY Hell, Johnson OR Starmer will prolong that with 5, but Starmer and New Labour did everything in their Power to prevent a UK Labour Party Government in 2017/2019, when we had real hope and real change, instead they gave us TORY ELITE OR TORY ELITE so NO CHOICE and NOTHING TO LOSE!
        You did us a Great Favour, you showed us 2015 to 2020 that Kind Gentle Socialism of Jeremy is not suitable for our times and that Fair RUTHLESSNESS will be the way forward, we will take our Party Back, we WILL rip EVERY bit of disease out of the Party and Unions and the Party WILL speak for the People ONCE AGAIN, whether you are amused by that or not!
        EVEN if that means voting Conservative Tory to make it happen! You’d be okay with that as you and yours spent 5 years enabling their Victory! I hope your Comfy FLUFF Bubble has a hell of a lot of Fluff as the Conservative TORIES are racing the Breadline up the Pay Scale!

      12. HateHate – It’s a while since I’ve had the misfortune to read such a load of self aggrandising crap.
        “Our 30 “Pretend” MPs are those who have been speaking up for THE PEOPLE in HoC, since Jeremy stood down.”
        Can we have some examples and some names

        “There are more leadership and power in just one of any of the Socialist MPs, REAL Democratic Socialists not PRETEND”
        I can’t say I’ve noticed, can we have some names so that I can look out for their contributions now that The House is sitting again.

        “You did us a Great Favour, you showed us 2015 to 2020 that Kind Gentle Socialism of Jeremy is not suitable for our times and that Fair RUTHLESSNESS will be the way forward, we will take our Party Back, we WILL rip EVERY bit of disease out of the Party and Unions and the Party WILL speak for the People ONCE AGAIN, whether you are amused by that or not! “
        History teaches us that authoritarian regimes frequently attack and undermine a country’s institutions in order to get and keep power. Who gets to decide what’s fair in this ruthless environment that you want to create, you?
        It all sounds a bit Stalinist and authoritarian to me and it doesn’t look like you envisage the people having much choice about whether ‘the party’ ‘speaks for them’ or not. Is it any wonder that you can’t achieve success through the ballot box. It all sounds like impotent bravado designed to falsely prop up your own failing hubris. Where were all your self appointed guardians of ‘the left’ ‘socialist comrades’ when you were gifted the opportunity to oust Margaret Hodge. Were they arguing amongst yourselves again?

        So given that you and a small minority of like minded misguided individuals have been forced to accept that you are incapable of progressing your political ideology through the normal democratic process of people willingly embracing it you appear to be advocating the same evil methodology that the chaos capitalists employ. From what you have written yourself the reality is that despite all your fine words proclaiming your socialist credentials as a man of the people and the supposed benefits of your ideology you’ve had to resign yourselves to the fact that you are incapable of achieving power without destruction because for some strange reason that you can’t understand you can’t convince others on the merits of your ideology.The lives you destroy along the way in your doomed journey to your f”wit Utopia will according to you be callously stripped of their dignity and identity and just become the anonymous collateral damage who have unwillingly sacrificed themselves on the alter of your ideology.
        It is somewhat ironic that you’ve chosen the username HateHate that seeks to portray you as one of the good guys who hates, hate when you’re actually just devoid of any compassion for others in the selfish pursuit of your own dogmatic political aims.

  2. Johnson will be well on his way before the next election, and the Tories will once again claim the new PM is nothing like the old PM.

    In the meantime, the invisible man will still be invisible in the hope that invisibility trumps the Tories.

  3. Doubt Sir Stormer QC will ever get in office, unless he joins the Tories. But then, given his, and others, determination to destroy democratic principles then he may be a bit too rt wing for them. Besides, the Tories generally hide their racism.
    The racists in LP HQ did very well for their cause all with the blessing Sir Stormer. These creatures would side with fascists before they ever sided with those who want a socialist society, If it looks like a duck…………..

  4. Starmer is a member of the Trilateral Commission which has about as much interest in recruiting socialists as a Colombian Death Squad. Joining the Labour Party is easy to join the Trilaterals you have to be pledged to promote the causes of capitalism and US imperialism.
    The Labour Party is a Church Broad enough to include just about anyone who is not opposed to imperialism and capitalism, for whom there is no room.

    1. EXACTLY! If we consider ONLY Trilateral Commission OR ONLY Julian Assange, that to me as a Socialist gives me enough justification to vote Conservative Tory, tactically in every New Labour TORY seat! It is at this stage the fastest route to cutting the Cancer out of the UK Labour Party! We will suffer 5/10 more years of Conservative TORY, but compared to Starmerism that seems the lesser of the two TORY EVILS in any case!
      The PEOPLE have Forced several U-Turns on Johnson I DO NOT think for one moment that will be possible with Keith ‘LOOPHOLES’ Starmer! He is a Dangerous man on a whole new Level! Think of the Consequences for Palestine, Yemen, Lebanon, ME Peace with THAT as PM if the UK!
      Johnson is a fool, trying desperately to be a British Eccentric, but he even fails miserably at that act! He will probably be replaced soon, you just need to look at the MSM to see that, I think they will try something fresh and new again like Luntz’s creation of Cameron out of the blue.
      Whoever it is they will suck as much as Johnson, as much as Starmer, They are ALL Run and Ordered by the ELITES, the SAME ELITES as the Trilateral Commission, MSM, Polls, etc!
      If we want a UK Labour Party for the People we must cut the Cancer out of the Party, they are not the “Right” of the Party they are a Parasite Party within the UK Labour Party! We have our own Left and Right, a Broad Church already exists, but a Secondary OPPOSING Party has no place in another Party’s Broad Church.
      UK LP=Democratic Socialism= FOR THE PEOPLE=OWN LEFT AND RIGHT!
      New LAB TORIES=Neoconservative “Centrism”=FOR THE ELITES=OWN LEFT AND RIGHT!
      That is 2 Broad Churches of COMPLETE POLAR OPPOSITE Ideologies/Policies/etc!
      With ELITE and MSM connected New Labour TORY Party infesting us, UK Labour and Democratic Socialism stands no chance!
      If People vote Conservative TORY in New Labour TORY Seats it WILL remove them, but if People vote Green or Lib Dem, it will be as good as a Spoiled Vote with no effect, If People vote UK Labour Party in Conservative TORY and any other Party seats, we might win 10/20 seats back from the Con TORIES added to our current Socialist Voices in HoC we WILL be heard again, and stand a good chance of a clean sweep at the following GE!

      1. HateHate – You and your very small band of self appointed ‘activists’ from the Tooting Popular Front are a pathetic joke, FFS you couldn’t even get your acts together to oust Dame Hodge when gifted the opportunity.

    2. SteveH are you that ignorant to compare British Socialism to the one small movement the Tooting Popular Front? Are you also REALLY that ignorant to think that the “Tooting Popular Front” had any say in the Disciplinary Procedures of the UK Labour Party!
      I will agree that Corbyn Played FAR too Nicely when he should have ruthlessly cut the Cancer out himself! HOWEVER as we know he was up against 70/80% Sabotaging New Labour Party TORIES connected very high up to the ELITES and MSM, he knew that full well also!
      Anyone who is Stupid enough to believe that the Most Popular Man won GE17/19, did not pay attention at all! The hunger for Socialism is growing at an unstoppable rate, Johnson/Starmer are inadvertently WAKING & UNITING THE PEOPLE like no politicians before!
      What Jeremy did was to Plant, for 4y3m NON STOP, Red Rose Shrubs all over the world and they are Blooming Beautifully!
      Look at the Roses they have already Produced: Laura P, Laura S, Apsana, Zarah, Bell, Nadia, etc, etc, etc! POLITICIANS with a PASSION FOR THE PEOPLE (NOT GREED AND ELITIST STATUS), look at Laura P and Laura S they have not sopped working for their communities regardless of having a seat or not! A Great many Conservative and New Lab Party TORIES have commented concern on Twitter about the state of Govt, MSM, so called “OPPOSITION”, etc!
      I am not justifying myself to the Ignorance of a Neoconservative “Centrist” New Lab TORY as far as I’m concerned we’re done here! You and your lot came out looking like shit and you will remain that for your existence and we will have UK Labour Party, Neocon “Centrist” TORY Parasite free, in under 10 years! Like it or not! You are as see through as Blair, Starmer, Murdoch, Watson, Hodge, et al ALL Neocon Thatcherite “Centrist” TORIES Equally Closed Minded and Ignorant to the REAL world of the REAL PEOPLE, encapsulated by their Comfy Fluff Bubbles! Hopefully your Fluff Bubble will get popped before the last Parasite is Fumigated and you could wake up and join us on that good day!

      1. HateHate – Well thanks for the long diatribe but I was just taking the piss out of you and your ilk. If you don’t understand the reference to the Tooting Popular Front then I suggest you Google ‘citizen Smith’.

      2. NO SHIT! SteveH! You are REALLY showing your true colours and all I can see is Magnolia!
        Now Go and enjoy your life I’m not in the slightest bit interested in your dull mundane Magnolia Life or Thoughts!

      3. HateHate – That will be about the same level of interest that the electorate has shown in your particular brand of socialism then.

      4. HateHate – Which is about the same level of interest that the electorate has shown in your particular brand of ‘socialism’.

      5. I doubt very much that what the Electorate voted was what was emptied on the Teller Table, with the level of International Anti Corbyn focused attention and 80% of Internal “Labour” Saboteurs for the Elites, even if every man and woman in the land voted Corbyn the Inbred would have won and Keith Starmer TORY LOOPHOLE Master would be Leader!
        That is why we will cut the Cancer of Neocon “Centrist” TORYISM out at the next GE! You and yours are really so naive to believe the ACTUAL Majority ruled GE19, lets speak again at the next GE, when 172 Neocon New Labour TORIES waggle out the backdoor!
        Do you REALLY THINK that THE PEOPLE will be forgiving to you and yours when the next GE comes EVEN IF Starmer was less dangerous than Johnson!?

      6. HateHate – You are obviously one of those people who has convinced themselves that oh so earnest shouty melodramatic hyperbole impresses people.

      7. Magnolia SteveH you are obviously one of those Magnolia People who ONLY conform to the Restrictive Rules of Conservatism, how DULL!
        I use CAPS because I LIKE TO, because I CHOOSE TO, because I CAN, I find it far more Creative and Self Expressive, I don’t need to shout to express myself in any way I WANT TO!
        I am sorry you are so deeply scared by CAPS, I hope you can find some kind of therapy to overcome that. AS FOR THE USE OF CAPS IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT DON’T DO IT!
        You don’t even have to Read or Comment on ANY of my comments yet here you are again, so please go and play somewhere else, somewhere a bit more Conservative perhaps!

      8. HateHate – Not scary but childish and irritating. If you search on Google you will see that numerous academic studies have found that text written conventionally in upper and lower case is significantly more legible than Caps Only.

        …and there I was thinking that you were the one who said “I’m not in the slightest bit interested in your dull mundane Magnolia Life or Thoughts!

      9. Magnolia SteveH Scary!? WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT childish as a creative I take that as a GREAT COMPLIMENT, CHEERS, irritating FANTASTIC, I forgot to mention that I do it because it IRRITATES the LIKE OF YOU!

        “If you search on Google you will see that numerous academic studies have found that text written conventionally in upper and lower case is significantly more legible than Caps Only.” EXACTLY WHY I write text unconventionally in UPPER and lower CASE Rather than CAPS ONLY like this for example:

        [MAGNOLIA STEVEH SCARY!? WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT CHILDISH AS A CREATIVE I TAKE THAT AS A GREAT COMPLIMENT, CHEERS, IRRITATING FANTASTIC, I FORGOT TO MENTION THAT I DO IT BECAUSE IT IRRITATES THE LIKE OF YOU!
        “IF YOU SEARCH ON GOOGLE YOU WILL SEE THAT NUMEROUS ACADEMIC STUDIES HAVE FOUND THAT TEXT WRITTEN CONVENTIONALLY IN UPPER AND LOWER CASE IS SIGNIFICANTLY MORE LEGIBLE THAN CAPS ONLY”. EXACTLY WHY I WRITE TEXT CONVENTIONALLY IN UPPER AND LOWER CASE!]
        TOTALLY ILLEGIBLE!

        “…and there I was thinking that you were the one who said “I’m not in the slightest bit interested in your dull mundane Magnolia Life or Thoughts!”
        Again you display your Comprehension issue and Misinterpretation, really if you don’t like to play go away and play elsewhere!

      10. HateHate – I’m quite happy to indulge you until I get bored but I’ve a feeling that other readers boredom threshold may be lower than ours.
        ps: Thanks for actually confirming your childish nature.

    3. bevin – Given your chosen username I thought this might interest you

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000m5mg
      Ernie Bevin, forgotten political giant
      Great Lives BBC R4
      Ernie Bevin led an extraordinary life. Born in Somerset in 1881, his father is unknown and his mother died when he was eight. He left his job as a farm labourer age 11 and moved to Bristol, where he helped to found the Transport and General Worker’s Union. He was Churchill’s Labour minister in the wartime cabinet, and heavily involved in postwar reconstruction as Foreign secretary under Clement Attlee. He smoked too much and drank too much, and made a massive impression on everyone he met. So why is he not better known? Nominating him is Frances O’Grady, General Secretary of the TUC, Matthew Parris presents and also contributing is his biographer, Andrew Adonis, author of Ernest Bevin: Labour’s Churchill.

  5. There appears to be a near cease fire between Tory and Labour at the moment except for Labour stealing their clothes and them stealing Labour’s.
    Not Starmer’s obviously, he has no clothes – it’s Corbyn’s the Tories are stealing.
    When they’re seen to be popular Starmer will jump in too – then they’ll fight over the rest of Corbyn’s policies like twins trying to differentiate themselves – while pretending they were always their policies and Corbyn stole them from them.
    Come on, Jeremy! Join the Greens now PLEASE!
    There won’t be a better time while all parties are off balance – leave it much longer and we won’t be able to to build enough profile and momentum for May 2024.

    1. Greta Thunberg will be old enough to run by then too.
      There’ll be political parties abroad asking her to join them – so ask her now!

      1. Greta Thurnberg, the utterly politically naive catastrophist Green advocate who borrowed a multimillionaire’s leisure racing yacht to get to that environmental conference in the USA – the three man crew then immediately FLYING back to Europe ! But at least Greta didn’t produce any greenhouse gases or airmiles on her yachting trip. Greta has the political understanding of an eggplant – which is why the superrich just love to patronise her . We need socialist politics to save our planet, both its not naive liberal catastrophism, which thinks the rest of us have any common interest with the superrich whose endless greed and super luxury over-consumption is a key cause of the despoilation of our planet. No doubt Greta also buys into the Prince of Wales’ daft boast that ‘the Dutchy of Cornwall is carbon neutral’ !

      2. No, I wasn’t being ironic.
        Did you stop learning when you were 16? No, nobody does.
        What were you doing when you were 16 apart from failing your O-levels and sniffing glue behind the bins?
        Looked at purely as a publicity magnet she’d be worth ten of most of the PLP.
        Boils my piss when people blame a 16 year old for not having the head of an exceptionally brilliant 40 year old.
        Leave her the fuck alone, she’s a child ffs..

      3. jpenney, politically naive she may be but which 16 year old isn’t?
        She raised the profile of green issues to new heights, didn’t she?
        AT 16 FUCKING YEARS OLD.
        And you demand more political discrimination of her than 99% of adults possess. You are one nasty, spiteful bitch.
        Politically active all your life and you’ve achieved what – would I be correct in assuming you’ve achieved the same as me – fuck all?

      4. Really McNiven. I must have wounded you in the heart. Such a bitter vitriolic response to a legitimate concern, a concern you partly addressed in your response to j penny (her nativity) But with me you resort to attacking my character and intelligence, for what? You don’t know me so why make silly, childish slurs against my character?
        What you didn’t address was how she has been groomed and manipulated her whole life yet you latch onto her like an adoring puppy.

    2. David, Starmer is a member of the Trilateral Commission his brief is to protect the interest of the Corporations. Hence, he isn’t interested in sponsoring Corbyn’s policies. He isn’t interested in gaining power but in keeping Labour in opposition. He is in a safe Labour seat so providing that he doesn’t lose seats at the next GE, even if he win as little as 5 seats he will stay.

      1. Exactly, and that’s why we need a new, genuinely socialist party – that I’ve been arguing for for what seems like forever.
        Or join the Greens en masse and take advantage of its image to deflect attacks from the media. In other words we’re Greens – green policies just happen to have a lot in common with socialist policies.
        Or will have if enough of us join.

      2. David – I hope you won’t be relying on the MPs who are members of the Socialist to make up the core of your new/high-jacked party. To directly quote what Richard Burgon said recently.

        “As a proud left-winger, I’m never going to indulge in the kind of disgraceful behaviour from right-wing members of the Parliamentary Labour Party, which sabotaged our General Election prospects in 2017,” he says. “They sought to capsize the Labour ship. They sought to steer the ship towards the rocks. They really sought to make the elected captain of the ship walk the plank. That’s not the approach I would take.”
        AND
        “We want Keir in Downing Street. We don’t want to capsize the ship – we want to steer its course – its policy programme – to the left,” he explains. “We are not oppositional; we intend to be propositional.”

      3. And of course, stammer never went on record publicly attacking Corbyn and Corbynist policies, did he?

        high-jackled (sic) party? Christ on a bike!, If gobshites like you and the rest of them in that report hadn’t facilitated enabled and emboldened stammer’s abject shithousery, he’d have buggered off to join the tings or whatever they called themselves.

        High-jacked(sic) party…’kinell.

        Try again, shill.

      4. If Burgon said that – he’s a useless fucking surrender-monkey.
        To paraphrase – “They acted like a dictator in a banana republic and we’re so furious we’re going to forgive them and ask them to try to be a bit nicer next time.”

  6. Perhaps a different more holistic approach would offer a better way forward way forward in the current Covid-19 influenced economic circumstances

    Below is an article from Professor Richard Murphy. Sorry it is so long but I couldn’t find a way of using short extracts without losing the meaning. Because of the WordPress layout limitations the original article is more readable and can be found here. https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2020/08/30/the-big-issue-for-the-sunday-papers-should-not-be-that-we-might-have-some-very-small-tax-increases-the-big-issue-is-that-these-tax-increases-might-increase-unemployment-even-more-and-the-scandal-is/

    The big issue for the Sunday papers should not be that we might have some very small tax increases. The big issue is that these tax increases might increase unemployment even more. And the scandal is that this is not being said.
    Posted on August 30 2020
    Tax is dominating the front pages of the Sunday Times and Sunday Telegraph this morning. As the latter says:
    Treasury officials are pushing for the largest tax rises in a generation to plug the gaping holes in the public finances, in a move being resisted by Downing Street, The Telegraph can disclose.
    The proposed quintuple whammy of tax increases would enable the Exchequer to raise at least £20 billion a year, and some could be introduced as early as in the Budget.
    While no decisions have been made, multiple sources have told this newspaper that proposals under active consideration include aligning capital gains tax (CGT) with income tax, slashing pension tax relief, raising fuel and other duties, the introduction of an online sales tax and a simplification of the inheritance tax system.

    Let’s put all this in context before discussing the detail, because it is the context that matters.
    Current best estimates of the deficit this year are £370bn.
    The Office for Budget Responsibility thinks that the deficit will exceed £100 billion (with ease) for the next three years.
    They also, in my opinion, seriously underestimate unemployment, believing it will not go much over 3 million for long when I think it could be much higher than that, meaning that the deficit from lost tax revenues and increased benefit payments will be higher than they suggest.
    The real economic crisis in this country is, then, lost unemployment and the well being of millions of people. But the Treasury, and in turn the Sunday Times and Telegraph, think the big issue will be utterly inconsequential shifts in tax revenues.

    I have summarised my opinion on tax after coronavirus in a submission to the Treasury Committee of the House of Commons.
    In that submission I say that:
    The greatest misunderstanding around tax at present, arising as a direct consequence of the coronavirus crisis, is that there will at some time be an obligation on government to somehow raise tax to cover the deficit of £300 billion or that will arise in 2020/21 and the £100 billion plus deficits that will arise in each of the following three years, as currently forecast. This is not true. There are a number of reasons for this:
    1.To seek to do this at a time when demand is already suppressed due to the impact of the coronavirus on both household and business confidence, which means that demand (and so GDP) is likely to be severely impaired for some time, would have the net effect of further reducing the funds available to fuel that demand, and so would exacerbate the scale of the recession (or even depression) that we are now facing. As such there is likely to be no scope for increases in overall tax revenue for some years to come if the government wishes to see the economy recover to anything like its former level of activity;
    2.As a matter of fact, there is no reason to raise funds for this purpose. Quantitative easing will cover most of the 2020/21 deficit, and will probably do likewise in each of the following years. There is no reason at all to reverse these QE arrangements and absolutely no pressure on the government to do so. Nor is there any obvious risk of inflation that suggests that QE might need be reversed. Indeed for more than a decade now inflationary pressure has almost disappeared from the world economy and there is no sign of it returning, anywhere. The chance that this happens to coincide with the period when QE has been in use is likely to not be coincidental at all.
    3.There is ample demand for government saving accounts and bonds at present and since the government now has effective near total control of short term interest rates (as a consequence of the size of central bank reserve balances) and long term interest rates (through QE) the government has every opportunity to continue to engineer this valuable position that means that the net cost of interest on national savings deposits and gilts will remain exceptionally small in historic terms for some considerable time to come.
    4.Any threat from money markets to destabilise this situation can always be neutered using either short or long term QE: the government can now always out-gun the markets, which was a fact not appreciated before 2009.

    It follows that the rational objective for the tax take within fiscal policy is, in this environment, to keep that yield as low as possible in order to stimulate demand, and so encourage economic recovery, leaving QE, the Bank of England and the government savings markets to fulfil the task of balancing the government’s funding equation.
    It is, to be blunt, crass in the extreme to think that tax increases on the wealth, without compensating tax cuts for those least off, are appropriate. Every pound in tax taken out of the economy now reduces demand and will make the coming economic crisis worse. And yet that is the Treasury logic.
    That said, as I noted in my submission, based on the research I did earlier this year on the under-taxation of wealth in the UK:

    It is, as a result, suggested that there is considerable additional capacity for tax to be raised from those who own most of the wealth in the UK, many of whom are in that top ten per cent of income earners.
    In principle I support all the suggestions that the Treasury is making, subject to one most massive caveat, also noted in my submission:

    At the same time, it is also noted that those with the lowest levels of income in the UK have the least capacity to pay any additional taxes, and that there might be considerable advantage from reducing the tax rates that they pay. This is not just for social reasons resulting from the reduction of the impact of inequality in the UK: the benefit would also be to the economy as a whole because those with the lowest levels of income have the highest marginal propensity to consume in society and when there is a shortage of demand in the economy (as is likely to the case for a number of years) providing those with that highest propensity to consume with additional income is one of the most effective measures for stimulating economic activity that can be taken.

    We need economic stimulus in our economy right now. It follows that we need more tax cuts.

    And there is one, over-riding point to make, which is that we do not need to pay for coronavirus. It’s already been paid for.

    No one is demanding their gilts back. There is no reason to reverse quantitative easing. There is no harm of any sort from not doing so. More can, in fact, be done (and I guarantee you, it will be, almost precisely because Andrew Bailey at the Bank of England thinks otherwise, and it is a certain mantra for the next few years that whatever Andrew Bailey thinks should not happen will, in fact, occur).
    So there is no black hole. There is no problem. There is no funding crisis to avoid. There is no deficit to fill. There is no punishment to impose.
    There is simply the job of full employment to deliver. Because that, and that alone (within the constraint of our environmental capacity) is all we really need worry about now.
    But the Treasury is playing in the margins, peeing in the wind, and proving itself as incompetent as ever at this moment of crisis.

    That’s what the papers should be talking about. But they’re not. And that’s a scandal.

    1. MMT
      Magic Money Tree
      You forget the rest of the world big to differ and are buying gold hand over fist

      1. SteveH
        Its like drip down ecomics, it doesn’t exist, MMT Is not a thing, its not real as Joseph points out, its the economics children play behind the couch
        Corbynomics is built on the Green New Deal, 5G for all, fair taxation and house building
        When more kids are building and making things than going to University that’s my kind of Socialism, throw in PR and throwing out Blairites thats my kind of Labour party

      2. To clarify Murphy, his QE for the people is Capital Expenditure, investment in the future and that loan is paid off in tax by the next generation
        The Joy of Taxation is a real thing, the cost of the society you want to live in

    2. What I don’t understand SteveH, is how you rationalise defending Starmer when you know he’s implacably opposed to everything to do with Corbyn including ‘Corbynomics’ – much of which we know was Richard Murphy’s work.
      Neoliberalism is implacable in its opposition to Keynesianism, Murphyism and Corbynism, and Starmer’s an enthusiastic dupe of neoliberalism.
      How can you support him?

      1. Well unlike you and many others on here David I don’t presume to know what Starmer is thinking or to predict what he is going to do. To date I haven’t seen much in the way of actual policy changes, have you? Until I see a tangible shift away from the principles of the last 2 manifestoes I will continue to support him.

      2. What he’s done already is enough to condemn him – no need to guess what he thinks or might do in future.
        He cost Labour not only the amount of the settlement to the traitors – he cost it the damages the BBC and Panorama and Ware would have had to pay to Labour – the party would in the end have been £1million better off – but worst of all, HE REFUSED TO DEFEND THE PARTY’S HONOUR.
        By choosing to judge him solely on the fact that he hasn’t made any antisocialist policy changes – yet – and ignoring everything else you can hardly be considered anything but a right wing shill.
        I regret having given you the benefit of the doubt in the past.

      3. David – Until we see the EHRC and Forde Reports then neither of us is qualified to pass judgement on this. Whatever the initial legal advice given, we may well find that EHRC report or the initial findings of the Forde panel led to a change in the legal advice. I’m also intrigued why way back in March RLB (on the record) committed to apologising and paying them compensation. (besides ought else her public commitment was unlikely to have strengthened Labour’s case if it had ever got to court)

      4. Because Steve h is a Tory.

        Says he doesn’t propose to know what stammers thinking… But demands everyone wait and see before they correctly predict what stammers about time after time, after time.

        So how one everyone else has got stammer down for the Tory he is and you don’t?

        Because you’re so fucking Tory you don’t know the difference between YOUR arse and stammers elbow.

        Looks like a tory, speaks like a tory, acts like a tory.

        What does that make the pair of them?

        (Clue: it’s far from being the social democrat the clown Steve h pathetically pleads to be)

      5. Toffee – When your argument depends on nothing more than bluster, profanities and conjecture the question you should ask yourself have you got one.

        It’s a bit rich for a self confessed Tory Boy to accuse members of the Labour Party of being Tory

        If you are going to attempt to paraphrase me then at least have the courtesy to try and be accurate, its not complicated.
        What I actually wrote was “I don’t presume to know what Starmer is thinking or to predict what he is going to do”. I haven’t demanded anything, I have simply pointed out that until we have the information it is not possible to reach an informed decision.

        I’ve no idea what you look like, but you’re not a member of the party and you’ve claimed several times that you’d rather vote Tory than Labour at the next GE so what does that make you self confessed Tory Boy. If it quacks etc….

        There you go again with your misquotes, to the best of my knowledge I’ve never claimed to be social democrat on this or any other forum. Apparently it is quite common for the politically ignorant to confuse the LibDems social democracy with the Labour Party’s democratic socialism so I suppose we shouldn’t be too surprised by your error.

      6. What a prolix way of avoiding the simple question I asked. Still, it’s only to be expected from you.

        Although I’ll ask again, How is that that you’re always telling us we should wait before passing judgement; yet what everyone was predicting is the eventual outcome?

        How come YOU don’t know or can’t guess what stammer’s plans are, but everyone else can, and predicts them with almost prodigious accuracy?

        It doesn’t take a clairvoyant to see what the slimy bastard’s about. It’s about time you demolished that shrine to him that you have in your bedroom.

      7. Toffee – Unlike yourself I prefer to rely on facts rather than conjecture and bluster.

      8. Nobody needs any more evidence than The Lobby to know whether accusations against Labour were true or not.
        When a foreign spy is paying people to lie about Labour – what other conclusion can there be than that everybody BUT Labour lied and lied and fucking lied for three solid years to keep that nice man out of Downing Street and their corrupt gravy train rolling.
        If justice was served the UK would have to build some new prisons.
        Anyone who isn’t incandescent is either an ignoramus or complicit.
        There’s no Mavis option here.

      9. SteveH31/08/2020 AT 9:17 AM
        Toffee – Unlike yourself I prefer to rely on facts rather than conjecture and bluster.

        You prefer to RELY on FACTS, do you? Well there’s a recurring, gargatuan FACT you tend to ignore completely; It’s the only one fact that anyone needs.

        And that’s how everyone has predicted stammer with uncanny accuracy while you’ve continued to demand they hold their piece until they’re invariably proved correct.

        If I was you I wouldn’t be giving ANYONE your abject shite about ‘conjecture and bluster.’ moron.

      10. ”It’s a bit rich for a self confessed Tory Boy to accuse members of the Labour Party of being Tory”

        Alright, plums, I’ll tell you what; if you really wanna settle this matter, why don’t you ask everyone what they think of stammer – let’s see how many think he’s the right man for LABOUR, eh?

        Better still, why don’t you go out of your house and actually ask real, live people if they think he’s as tory as a tory, but hasn’t the stones to admit as much?

        Or are you worried you’ll have one of your ‘episodes’ and you’ll end up rolling around in the gutter, biting at car wheels in your frustration and humiliation at the overwhelming majority disagreeing with you, yet again?

      11. Toffee – I don’t need to, he was recently democratically elected with a substantial majority by Labour Party and affiliated members. Your daft straw pole amongst your like minded mates means bugger all apart from you being as daft as each other.

      12. SteveH, democracy requires that the electorate hear the truth – they haven’t heard it for decades and Starmer is as guilty as anyone.
        He was NOT democratically elected, he HIJACKED democracy with the help of the MSM and rich donors – JUST LIKE ANY OTHER TORY.

      13. David – You’ve conveniently ignored the Keir was the front runner right from the get-go There was every opportunity for the other candidates and party members to highlight any concerns they may have had about him during the numerous hustings to now claim the election process was flawed is disingenuous. The only significant criticism I have of the process is that the NEC failed to publish what the second preference votes were so that we could get a more complete picture of the level of support that Starmer actually has in the party.

      14. No – the real point, which YOU’VE conveniently ignored, is that without all the lies THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO VACANCY TO WEASEL HIS WAY INTO.
        I never once heard ‘Mr. Fucking Forensic’ use his massive legal brain to rip those lies apart.
        If you can point to the statement where he DID defend Jeremy I’ll retract and apologise.

      15. David McNiven 02/09/2020 at 12:30 am
        No – the real point, which YOU’VE conveniently ignored, is that without all the lies THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO VACANCY TO WEASEL HIS WAY INTO.
        Absolutely non of this has any relevance to what I’ve said above, one could be forgiven for wondering if this was intended as a distraction from the points I raised above

        “I never once heard ‘Mr. Fucking Forensic’ use his massive legal brain to rip those lies apart.”
        I am surprised you’d expect him to, he’s just witnessed how it destroyed Corbyn why would he seek the same fate?
        I don’t doubt that Corbyn received legal advice that the Panorama case was “winnable” a term that lawyers use to mean ‘we’ve got a reasonable chance of a good outcome but don’t count on it’. The updated advice/situation may well have been completely different after Starmer & Labour’s legal team had read the EHRC report, plus the initial findings of the NEC appointed Forde panel may have had an impact on the decision to settle. We just don’t know at the moment. Also I still can’t just dismiss that the left’s chosen one RLB, the candidate supported by both Jeremy and Len, publically pledged way back in March to compensate and apologise to those that appeared in the Panorama program. It troubled me at the time and it still troubles me now, what did she know then that we (as in you and I) still don’t know now. Why did Labour withdraw its official complaints about the program in January this year.
        Given that the party has already apologised and paid out a not inconsiderable sum that particular subject is now way out of bounds and as this all links onto most of the accusations against Labour’s handling of the AS accusations there would be a considerable financial risk in coming out in support of Corbyn on these issues. Plus maybe the contents of the EHRC report (regardless of what we personally might eventually conclude about its impartiality) would make coming out in his defence a complete non starter. I like everyone else who has yet to see these reports can only speculate about the reasons behind these various decisions at the moment.

      16. “Why did Labour withdraw its official complaints about the program in January this year”.

        Really? This will come as news to most regulars here, if not to Skwawky himself!

    3. Two trillion and rising into the largest debt this tiny country as ever seen and you fall for the bullshit economist that thinks that its a matter of quantitive easing or employment or not.A country that has no real manufacturing base,and only trades fiat currency and fiat companys cannot survive..But then again a country that has two opposition knights,and a entitled Public schoolboy clown leading a monorchist system of establishment and corruption is inevitably sailing for the Rocks.The country was presented with a real leader and a real plan for a real economy and it was rejected by people like you who think their titled crook betters will kiss it all better.Too late comrades Corbyn was the last chance for this country.Stop the distraction politics Steve H.

      1. Joseph, you’re wrong. Watch this and read Richard Murphy – who isn’t a “bullshit economist” but a tax accountant.

      2. Joseph – Well thanks for your eloquent contribution and for also giving us the benefit of your expertise, perhaps you could round off your previous post by detailing the differences between Corbyn’s economic plans and the gist of what Murphy is proposing. I’ll be looking forward to reading your detailed reply.

      1. “ For the rest of our lives.”

        Aided and abetted by a ubiquitous threat of ever more lockdowns, each announced with a mock-sigh and proclamation that “it’s for your own good”.

        It works better than George Osborne’s “we’re all this together”.

        The covid catastrophe probably has as much to do with the imposition of globalism’s New World Order than the health threats of the novel coronavirus.

      2. I quote once again: “The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants” (Albert Camus)

    1. And your point????
      Prince Charles’ brother gets away with paedophilia
      Jimmy Carter’s brother was an agent for Libya
      not to mention poor Tony Benn and Glenda Jackson and their offspring
      Do you think people are responsible for their family?
      Or are you just sharing a random headline with no ulterior motive

      No I doubt that very very much
      I think you’ll post anything for a reaction

      You’re transparent and a waste of energy
      I’M NOT GOING TO BE SUCKED IN ANYMORE BY YOU
      No more reactions from me, MAYBE IF WE DIDN’T FEED YOU, you’d get bored and VAMOOSH
      Here’s hoping

      1. Helsbells2022- You’re the one making such a big deal about it, not me.
        Oh dear and we were just getting to know each other. Bye, bye .

    1. Toffee – There you go again, indulging in more hyperbole. Why is considering that Corbyn’s brother’s actions this weekend were idiotic “full-on murdoch”.

      1. Strange, that you’re now claiming to condemn the actions of someone related to Corbyn (Guilt by association shthouse trick)

        …But where’s your condemnation of stammer by DEMANDING kids go back to school? Isn’t he an idiot for demanding people risk themselves and others so he can look like he’s a *ahem* ‘hard case?’ (Stop laughing everyone)

        Oh, I forgot – That’s not a CRIMINAL act, is it? But JEREMY CORBYN’S BROTHER’S ACT WAS Another of your shithouse cop-outs you’ll hide behind, no doubt

        No wonder your views are taken apart wholesale, and you get ridiculed by just about everyone on every website you visit. You’re nothing but a shithouse with an unhealthy (bordering on a depraved) stammer infatuation.

      2. Toffee – It was highlighted over the weekend by other commentators that Corbyn’s brother was going to join the f’wits in Trafalgar Sq. Why shouldn’t I point out that the idiot got what he deserved for criminally endangering the health of others. I hope many others including David Icke also got fined. I attached no blame or guilt by association to Corbyn, (you’re the one that did that) only an idiot would seek to infer guilt by association because Corbyn unlike his brother recognises that Covid-19 is a serious threat.

        You’ve neglected to mention that Keir has for months been repeatedly offering to work jointly with the government and the unions to ensure that the children are returning to a safe environment and he has been highly critical of the Tories for their lack of preparation and forethought.

      3. ”You’ve neglected to mention that Keir has for months been repeatedly offering to work jointly with the government and the unions to ensure that the children are returning to a safe environment and he has been highly critical of the Tories for their lack of preparation and forethought.”

        I’ve neglected nothing of the sort, soft ollies. And that’s because stammer had offered his FULL SUPPORT to the government on it’s lockdown measures AND is on record as having done so.

        https://labour.org.uk/press/keir-starmer-calls-for-national-consensus-on-next-phase-of-coronavirus-response/

        In a statement ahead of talks with the Prime Minister later this week, Keir Starmer announces that Labour will support an extension of lockdown measures.

        He says: “Our priority is protecting the public’s health and saving lives. That is why we supported the lockdown and again support the restrictions staying in place at this time.”

        ”No ifs or but, no equivocation”

        Remember that? They’re the words of the object of your infatuation demanding that groups of 30+ people are forced into.an enclosed space. (There was me thinking stammer was in support of lockdown measures? )

        Yet piers corbyn is fined for attending an OUTDOOR gathering and yet HE’S the idiot, – according the biggest idiot on this site.

        And if it WASN’T about having a snide ‘guilt by association’ dig Corbyn then WHY haven’t you mentioned anyone else being fined £10k?

        Because you’re a stammerite lowlife. A tory without the guts to admit you’re a tory.

      4. Toffee – What on earth are you wittering on about I can see absolutely nothing wrong with the contents of the press release that you kindly linked to and I would encourage everyone to read it. What it states was entirely appropriate at the time it was written.
        As to why I only mentioned Piers Corbyn well that’s easy, his was the only name mentioned on the news bulletin that I was listening to at the time.

      5. ”As to why I only mentioned Piers Corbyn well that’s easy, his was the only name mentioned on the news bulletin that I was listening to at the time.”

        Oh please don’t blame ME…I was only parroting that ghastly anti-Corbyn mainstream media and didn’t bother to check if anyone else had been fined, because I only needed to type the name ‘Corbyn’ in bold, just so you’d all get the inference

        You are one snivelling little sadsack..

      6. Toffee – You may have had a valid point if you weren’t attempting to distort the truth. Yes I did put Corbyn in bold but unfortunately you neglected to mention that the whole of my short comment is also in bold to draw people’s attention to the whole comment and not to particularly single out the Corbyn name as you dishonestly imply.

        As for you wittering on about me trying to pass off the blame onto MSM. This would be only be valid if I felt that I was to blame for anything. All I’ve done is reported that a stupid, selfish and misguided individual who was involved in the event got his just deserts. Why should I feel guilty for bringing it to people’s attention the fact that their could be a hefty penalty to pay for selfishly putting others at risk, hopefully it may act as a deterrent to others acting in the same stupid and selfish way as Piers did.

        As to why I didn’t bother to search out other individuals who’d also been issued with a FPN well I wasn’t bothered enough to go to the effort of doing so. However if it concerns you so much I’m not stopping you from doing a bit of research yourself and publishing a more complete list, be my guest.

      7. All that – and still fooling nobody.

        Volunteering all sorts of useless information is the classic telltale sign of a fibber. Plead your innocence all you like, you’ve been busted, lad.

      8. Toffee – I’m simply responding to your questions and pointing out your rather pathetic attempts to distort and mislead.

  7. Oh, and that’s after stammer said he’d look into sending people back into unsafe working environments then decided he would after about two days – just as everyone predicted; but yet again you said we ought to wait beofre passing judgement.

    Just one of many examples where you’ve shit out because you just can’t accept just about everyone’s better informed about the object of your unhealthy infatuation than you are.

    You’re like an abused housewife who refuses to believe her abuser cannot change. Give it up lad, seriously.

  8. And off steven h goes to hide, having once more been collared, bang to rights..

    Don’t worry, little steven, I haven’t forgotten, and you’re not gonna be allowed to forget what you are, neither.

    When you think this has blown over and you think your safe to come back on, I will be calling you out once again, you compulsive-obsessive, stammer-idolising oddball, you. 👍

    1. Toffee – I wasn’t aware there was anything to blow over. Is this the point were I’m supposed to be shivering 😨 with fear in case the big bad pathetic bully comes for me. 🙄

      1. Yer, whatever …

        It’s patently obvious you’re rattled because the emojis have come out. I’m (almost – but not quite) surprised the yawning one wasn’t used – or are you saving that in reply to this?

        You’ve been collared once again and you’re incensed. And as long as you post your shite on here I’ll be there to gladly help you along your way in looking the morally ambiguous, and intelligence-bereft rodent you are.

        Away and gnaw at your furniture in rage, little fella. Off you pop.

  9. What I find chilling is that, if what I’ve just read is true, a £10,000 fine can now be imposed on a fixed penalty basis.
    So now people without the means to pay or to defend themselves will be subject to what I assume will be a term of imprisonment – without trial – commensurate with a £10,000 fine.
    What would that be – six months? A year?
    I assume one can elect trial by jury if one has the means to defend oneself but who knows… if not it’s a slippery slope to dictatorship.
    I don’t know whether this is part of ‘temporary’ emergency powers or has always been available to the police – but it’s beyond excessive.
    In the photo of the demo I just saw the police were as bunched together as the demonstrators and neither group were wearing masks.
    I don’t approve of the demo – they’re idiots – but we mustn’t allow a police state in by the back door just to deal with those tossers.

    1. David – Whilst I have some empathy with your concerns, what are the authorities to do to get people to take their responsibilities to society seriously the idiots were just laughing at the £100 fines and selfishly endangering other people’s health and lives. As I understand it (and I don’t claim to know this for certain) the £10,000 fines are reserved for those involved in the organisation of illegal events. Should we just let people off the hook when they are endangering others lives.
      These fines are issued in the form of an FPN so will be subject to the same appeal/challenge procedures as other FPNs. These fines are facilitated by the emergency Covid-19 regulations.

      1. And what about when they start fining parents because their kids have to look after them while they’re shielding, or they just don’t think stammer’s DEMANDS they return to school are reasonable and unsafe, or that they’re ”selfishly endangering lives” as you so put it?

        I’ll bet THEY’LL be ‘laughing’ at their stammer insisted upon fines, won’t they, gobshite?

        The gobshite stammers proved beyond all doubt he’s every bit as clueless as the real toerags.

      2. Toffee – You are attempting to conflate two different issues on the one hand se have the state protecting us all from the selfish stupidity of the Trafalgar Sq protesters who were endangering the health and wellbeing of others and on the other we have the need for the state to convince families that it is safe for them to send their kids back to school.

        It should be noted that Labour have been repeatedly challenging the Tories to put the necessary provisions in place to reassure everyone that it is safe. Labour has also repeatedly offered to help the Tories with this. Labour aren’t the ones ordering kids back to school or imposing the FPNs, Labour are the ones that are insisting that the Tories get their finger out and face up to their responsibility ensure that there is safe provision for children to resume their education.

      3. If a party/gathering at a person’s home is held by plod to be an ‘illegal event’ – the householder clearly organised it – so, 10k or jail, right?
        “The Tories and the police would never abuse their powers” you say?

      4. David – Firstly I never mentioned whether it was open to abuse or not. As for your example of someone hosting an house party that breaks the regulations then they deserve all they get. They are consciously putting other people’s lives at risk and if it takes a substantial fine to wake them up to both their social responsibility and there obligation to obey the law then so be it, they’ve only themselves to blame.

      5. You’d agree I take it that everyone at an event is there voluntarily and is therefore equally blameworthy.
        The most appropriate response would be to arrest them all and park them together in a very basic quarantine facility for two weeks or whatever. Think sheds or village halls with camp beds rather than 4-star hotels.
        That at least wouldn’t destroy lives in the way that a 10k fine could, and it also has utility in its favour.
        Fining them does nothing to prevent the spread of CV from the event itself.

    2. Pointless exercise
      You cannot squeeze blood our of a stone
      Ask any semi competent Magistrate

    3. The brother has martyr written all over him
      He wants to go to gaol for the cause and then his fines will be written off

    4. Magistrates look at means
      If you cannot pay your fine off over 12 months then gaol is an option or reduced fines
      Gaol normally only happens when your in contempt of a court order
      Refusal to pay

    1. What’s that, Joseph….You mean Corbyn, as in Jeremy Corbyn?

      (Typed in bold, just so you know EXACTLY WHAT and WHO I’m referring to, in case it wasn’t clear that Piers Corbyn is Jeremy’s brother, as if it’s of any relevance…)

  10. Toffee – Although I must admit to being a bit bored I feel quite relaxed and not in least bit incensed about anything. What do I have to feel incensed about.

  11. Starmer cannot back ‘increased taxes on the rich’, because it is Tony Blair’s cornerstone policy.

  12. ………no, it is Blair’s ideological cornerstone that taxes on the rich cannot be increased. I think ‘Mandy’ said that.

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