Iain Duncan Smith wants you all back to work and packed close. So he’s claimed infections had already ‘peaked’ when lock-down started. But it wasn’t even close

Profit before lives for the Tories, every time

Former DWP Secretary Iain Duncan Smith thinks we should all be back at work – and none of this ‘2m apart’ nonsense.

So to support his claim, he told BBC News viewers that coronavirus infections had already ‘peaked’ when the lockdown began in March. Let’s see whether that stands up:

In fact, on lockdown day the UK saw 967 new cases. From there it went up, every day, until 10 April when it peaked at 8,681 – almost nine times the lockdown-day figure. Smith’s claim was not challenged by the BBC, in spite of the obvious.

Had Boris Johnson not delayed the lockdown as long as he did, of course, as many as three quarters of the UK’s deaths could have been avoided. But Duncan Smith wants to rush us all back to tight conditions even faster than his psychopathically unapologetic party boss.

967 vs 8,681. Some ‘peak’. Still, at least the Tories have increased temporary mortuary capacity in readiness for the second wave.

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  1. I suggest that when we see Iain Duncan Smith we run up to him and give him a really big hug…and perhaps a kiss.

      1. Aye, a glesga kiss for each of the 25,000 hospital patients who were sent to care homes before testing became routine.

        And for the 300+ health workers who have died so far of covid-19 so far.

        And for the Government-caused shortage of PPE. Government ignored warning to stockpile PPE as Covid-19 spread

  2. I wouldn’t trust Duncan Smith on anything. So why quote him? Particularly when the totally discredited Ferguson is quoted to make the opposite point. Get your references credible.

    The plain fact of what he is borrowing about the course of the epidemic is the result of the recognised mainstream analysis – seen in the work of Professors Wood and Heneghan (Bristol & Oxford respectively). See, for example :

    ” … the results show is that, in the absence of strong assumptions, the currently most reliable data strongly suggest that the decline in infections in England and Wales began before lockdown.”

    … and you don’t have to be a mathematical genius to note that Lock-Up had zero effect on the curve of deaths – a null hypothesis that has been confirmed by all credible analysis.

    I’m afraid that the selective SB efforts to perpetuate myths put the site alongside IDS in terms of credibility. When you resort to Ferguson as authority, the desperate nature of the joint enterprise with the Groan is proven!

    1. ‘I wouldn’t trust Duncan Smith on anything.’

      And nor would I. But voting leave meant I was ‘in full agreement’ with him, according to you.

      Now the tables are turned, and you’re in full agreement with dummkopf-schmitt over covid, despite your pleas otherwise. That’s your very own ‘dicky’ logic for ya.

      Oh, and I’ll just remind you that nobody died from brexit.

      1. “nobody died from brexit”

        No? It’s early days.

        Acrually, Toffee – the accusation was that you supported a core Tory policy. Like Lock-Up.

      2. “Core Tory policy?” Lockdown?
        It was the last thing they wanted.
        BloJob only did it when his hand was forced by events.

  3. The U.K. economy shrank a record 20.4% in April as businesses and workers reeled under the lockdown designed to control the coronavirus pandemic.
    The contraction, which followed a 5.8% drop in March, effectively wiped out almost 18 years of growth in two months, returning the economy to the same size it was in 2002. While a rebound is likely as businesses start to reopen, the grim figures show the scale of the challenge facing policy makers as they try to recover the lost ground.

    The OECD says the country could see one of the developed world’s deepest recessions in 2020, with output slumping more than 11% — the most for more than 300 years.
    Unemployment is widely expected to reach rates not seen since the mid-1990s, with more than 7,500 job cuts being announced on Thursday alone as the lockdown hammers businesses from chemical manufacturers to airports. That’s despite massive government support that has left the taxpayer paying the wages of over 11 million people at a cost of 27 billion pounds ($34 billion) so far.

    In April, the damage was done by a 19% drop in the dominant services industry, where sectors such as air transport, travel agents and restaurants lost around 90% of their output. Manufacturing fell 24.3%, while construction plunged 40.1%. It means the economy was around 25% smaller in April than it was in February.

    U.K. Economy Plunged by Record 20% Under Virus Lockdown
    The U.K. economy shrank a record 20.4% in April as businesses and workers reeled under the lockdown designed to control the coronavirus pandemic.

    Read in Bloomberg:

    1. A new study has found that Sars-Cov-2, the virus linked to Covid19, maybe five times more widespread than previously thought, and therefore five times less deadly.

      The research, conducted by a team of scientists at the University Hospital in Zurich, is titled: “Systemic and mucosal antibody secretion specific to SARS-CoV-2 during mild versus severe COVID-19”, and found that Sars-Cov-2-specific antibodies only appear in the most severe cases, or about 1 out of 5.

      The authors infer from this that antibodies are inexplicably absent from the majority of mild cases of covid19. But, given the known inaccuracy of the diagnostic tests and the well-documented tendencies to over-diagnose by clinical observation, another potential explanation would appear to be that the absent antibodies were due to the fact the subjects had never actually been infected with SARS-COV-2 in the first place, and their ‘mild’ cold-like symptoms were due to some other pathogen, like…the common cold.

      However, if the authors are indeed correct in their estimation, this might mean SARS-COV-2’s infection rate (IFR) would need to be revised downward yet again. If 80% of those infected really do not produce antibodies then there is a live possibility the virus is present in many more people than usually supposed. Which would in turn potentially reduce the IFR, possibly considerably.

      In the early stages, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimated the virus’ IFR to be as high as 3.4%. The models based on those numbers have, however, been shown to be wildly inaccurate.

      Many experts, such as Prof John Ioannidis from Stanford, predicted the WHO’s IFR numbers would be proven incorrect when the widespread population studies were finished.

      The dissenting experts appear to have been vindicated by the serological studies, using blood tests looking for Sars-Cov-2 antibodies done across different populations all over the world, which routinely suggest that the IFR is closer to 0.3% than the WHO’s initial figure of 3.4%.

      From Japan to Iceland to Los Angeles, the numbers returned were between 0.06 and 0.4. Within the range of seasonal influenza.

      As a result of these studies, the US CDC’s most recent “estimated IFR” is between 0.26% and 0.4%. Roughly 1/10th of the initial estimates.

      Another study from last month meanwhile has found evidence up to 60% of people may be partially resistant to SARS-COV-2 without ever being exposed to it.

      Importantly, we detected SARS-CoV-2-reactive CD4+ T cells in ∼40%–60% of unexposed individuals, suggesting cross-reactive T cell recognition between circulating “common cold” coronaviruses and SARS-CoV-2.

      In other words, large numbers of people may be immune or resistant to this virus because they have already been infected by other coronaviruses.

      This may not be surprising, given the close relationship between most coronaviruses, but it is a further indicator that this virus, known to be harmless in the vast majority of cases, is neither especially unique nor especially dangerous.

      The evidence continues to mount that the original estimates of the danger posed by this virus were massively exaggerated.

      Swiss Policy Research continue to have detailed write-ups on this and many other developments.

      STUDIES: 60% of people naturally RESISTANT to SARS-COV2

      You can view it by clicking here:

    2. Makes a mockery of the Tory mantra that the wealth trickles down doesn’t it! Never again will anyone believe that whopper! Without the hard working minimum wage people being in work the country is fu** ed!!!

    1. Will you GTF with that pile of shite?!

      Swiss doctor – working on behalf of Dignitas…

      1. Hmm, which is the bigger pile of shite ,the words according to the gospel of the utterances of prof Ferguson and his merry backers from the land of megabuck land with a supporting cast from billionaires papers of truth road in the never never land of what ifs or hard factual data, evidence and proof?

      2. Yeah, ok brian.

        Your quack’s set of unproven data – based on ‘may or may nots’ and ‘not provens’ is obviously the bible, innit? I’ve never once quoted ferguson or anyone else. I go off my own observations; I consider meself no less ‘expert’ than these so-called ‘experts’

        And I note you’re another, eager to put people at risk. You gonna practice what you preach and cop a dose yerself?

        I mean, the erudite and well-versed ‘dicky’ says: it’s only mild’ , so what are you waiting for?

        You seem willing for me & others to jeopardise our health… Why not show us all just how much faith you have in your Swiss guru, dummkopf-schmitt and the rest of them?


        Then shut up.

      3. What do they give people at Dignatas for breakfast

      4. “Swiss doctor – working on behalf of Dignitas”

        No – simply and thoughtfully providing links to expert opinions excluded from the MSM – all of which can be checked out individually.

      5. Toffee

        If you could kindly direct us to the nearest dose-copping station, Brian, RH and myself would be only too happy to oblige.

  4. Dummkopf-schmitt. He of the hitler moustache eyebrows. The love child of Alistair Sim and irma grese, with none of Sim’s joviality and ALL of grese’s depravity.

    He’d love to see forced labour camps here. He was halfway to it with his ‘workfare’ racket. Not that he’s ever had a real job himself, mind. Bar a spell flogging magazines about weaponry (He’s the biggest weapon of all) he’s only ever had taxpayer-funded positions himself. But at least they’ve been salaried, unlike those he’s sent out to do forced labour…

    So when you hear these gripes about slavery – he’s your man of the moment. Nevermind statues – If someone needs holding to account for slavery, today – dummkopf-schmitt’s yer man.

    And when was the last time he struggled with the rent? He’s been living rent-free at his tart’s father’s estate, but imposed a tax on the poorest for having an unoccupied room.

    Claimed child benefit for all four of his progeny as well. Not that you’ve be able to claim for more than two for the last few years.

    I could go on, but you already know what a slef-serving hypocritical twunt he is…

      1. Oh dear, unable to offer anything substantive except babble.

      2. Rather like your obsessive drivel on this point . I fundamentally disagree with all that you have droned on ad-nausea over the reality of 60,000 CV19 deaths .They exist, are or were human beings, they are dead because if CV19 and your dismissal or efforts to nul that fact just like RH tries to is , frankly , shameful of a so called socialist.
        That is an assumption on my behalf , as you do seem to be overly concerned with the GDP and health of businesses somewhat more so than the health and safety of their workers , as per your comment at

        12/06/2020 at 10:45 am

        You seem perhaps more like a Centrist neoliberal in your arguments to get the workers back , and maybe you are .

      3. “60,000 CV19 deaths .They exist, are or were human beings, they are dead because if CV19”

        Errr … you’re even wrong about those basic ‘facts’.

        You must be into coprophilia to swallow that amount of Johnsonian shite!

        Try using the eyes and brain instead of the knee-jerk. We do, but rarely see any argument coming back – just repetition of the government stuff.

      4. RH you dispute the excess dead of 60K you are sadly mistaken , enough of your utter twaddle .Its you who is swallowing the Johnson Shite as you put it. Wanting to dissolve the lockdown and get everyone back to work … utter rubbish RH utter rubbish ! FOOL !

  5. Unfortunately it looks like ids may be right. One problem is the science (evidence) is all over the place and Bojo may have picked the wrong scientists to back. As they were creatures of the establishment it’s probably understandable. As we all should know infections are massively greater than those clinically diagnosed. The real errors in this mess are not protecting care homes and crashing the economy. It is regrettable that the latter is going to do far more harm long term than the former.

    1. well if ids is right, here is a room no masks, less than 1 metre, distance between people, one of them maybe a carrier, in ids goes for a day, he will have met the carrier, it will be okay though, he thinks so, so do I , him first, off he goes

  6. What lessons should we take from these ravings of fat capitalist pigs?
    That our duty is to risk our lives to rebuild a system that chose profit over our lives – that boasted of “taking it on the chin” while profiteering from exporting the PPE that would have saved lives – in an outbreak which was predicted in all but its timing?
    That we must sacrifice our families’ comforts for another decade to restore the bank balances of the 1%?
    I don’t think so.
    They want us to believe capitalism is the lifeblood of society but it’s not.
    Education is. It’s education that invents and creates, not greed. Capitalism only exploits.

    1. David the lessons learned for me is that the Care homes catastrophe hss been at the forefront of building a defence of charges that will be laid at the forefront of government planning to murder the innocent victims of an herd experiment inside the Care homes by placing the infected amongst the residents and Care workers without informing any of the potential “Victims.Many thousands hsve died and this government will answer for their crimes in the international courts.I have already consulted Lawyers and will not let the murder of my two brothers go unanswered.

    1. Is it?

      I’m not the one making claims using words like ‘may’ and ‘not clear’.

      I’m not the one using a single example of a 109 year old being mistaken for a 9 year old and insinuating that could be a lot more common than it actually was.

      So there’s NO onus on me.

      1. Really, did you read the report thoroughly? Because I notice you are employing the MSM tactic of selective quotes. If you have evidence that disproves it. Let’s see it!

      2. As already explained, I don’t need to disprove anything. I didn’t make the claims.

        There isn’t a scientist on the planet gets a theory accepted as fact without peer review. I don’t see many – if any – of this swiss quack’s peers rushing to get him/her nominated for the nobel prize for medicine – do you?

        And it’s hardly likely when they’re using trerms like ‘may’ (as in may or may NOT) or ‘not proven’ ,-
        because they can’t prove the other way…

  7. Matt Hancock is facing legal action from the daughter of a covid19 victim who was infected by a positive patient released to the Home (in accordance with Government advice) by a local NHS hospital.

    Shameless Hancock is accused of a “litany of failures” and misleading the public with his claim to have “thrown a protective ring” around care homes.

    Hancock must be made accountable for his Government’s incompetent and recklessness. Well done Dr Cathy Gardner in launching your high court claim. Millions of citizens wish you success.

    1. Seconded.

      I’d hope there could be a class action brought against him and the rest of them.

    2. ITs complicated and a legal minefield in Britain .To make the health Secretary acountable we woud have to defeat in court the bill that made the Health Secretary immune from responsibility for the Health service thanks to the condem government and gsng of four traitor Shirley williams.The international courts may be the answer?rather than the High court.?

  8. Insane fuckwit nut job opens gob and shite pours out , well tickle my tits till Friday lets have something new about Idioot Dumpkoff Schmitt de groupen staffen kiesser zieg !

  9. Another one that thinks they have diplomatic immunity because there a mp, okay so let’s say I roll with his idea, it is safe, ids says so, I catch it following distancing of one metre, wear a mask, gloves etc, I then want to see him arrested for putting me at risk, safeguarding, putting others at risk, will it happen, no so until then ian Duncan smith can go and stick his head in a bucket, I will not be forced by him or others until they sign a legal document accepting responsibility for there decision and the legal ramifications that come with that

  10. Regardless of the arguments above, the fact remains that one person managed to infect around 40 in one night in Seoul. This was in a couple of crowded gay clubs.

  11. If you think that the data from, the NHS, the medical authorities in various countries plus world renowned professors, doctors, medical institutions not dependent on handouts from the mega buck brigade are quacks, it seems you might be the one not be to so quick to use labels, just like the MSM do, rather argue your case coherently.

    Now, as regards me getting it. We, Toffee it’s not my immediate concern I have a very serious health problem which I have to regular treatment for so the boogie man scare don’t frighten me. So I suggest you engage brain before shooting your uncouth mouth at me again.

    1. Oh, you’ve got a health concern, have you?

      And others DON’T? You want THEM to ‘take it on the chin’ but NOT you, in case you croak? And you’re backing the theory it’s only a ‘mild’ disease…Pshaw!

      Yes, brain – and you’ll remember that more doctors smoke camels than any other cigarette…

      As for your reliance on people who aren’t allegedly in the pockets of big pharma and the other corporations, it seems pretty strange you’re the one backing the corporate stance that people should risk themselves to save their skins…

      1. Oh it’s more than a health concern, Its something 1 in 3 people will get. So let’s hope you don’t get it then you wouldn’t have to use idiotic terms like a “ health concern, have you “ You fucking moron! .

        The boogie man scare which has killed how many solely ( no primary illnesses) from it. Let me help you out. 0-19 years old 3..

        20-39 years old 32

        40-59 years old 155

        60-79 years old 486

        80+ years old 565.

        All deaths are regrettable but hyperbole, ramping up frenzied fear doesn’t help. That’s the MSM job, plus the State Broadcaster.

        Whilst you were trawling through my posts looking for selective quotes, you seem to have overlooked the response I gave to NVLA when he asked me a similar question. So and go have a trawl through that!!!

      2. Well, I’m not willing to risk myself, or my family for money. The thing with covid is it’s the perfect storm.

        Fake? Then play the capitalists at their own game. They can’t force you back into work, and the many unemployed who don’t really know it yet will make the recent protests tame.

        Real? Then do you want to chance your kid dying alone? Do you want to chance infecting a parent or grandparent? No.

        I appreciate that some of us out there have had a torrid time, but that’s how it always is. The difference is a new set of sufferers are in place, and they don’t like it one bit.

        For the record, we locked down ten days before the government told us to. Because family matters.

    2. Best wishes for your health brianbotou.

      Also, don’t be upset by some of the pointedly rude responses to your posts here. When all’s said and done, Skwawkbox just isn’t the site on which to question the establishment’s pandemic narrative. They don’t mean to be rude, I’m sure.

      1. ‘Pointedly rude’???

        I’ll tell you what’s ‘pointedly rude’ , qwerty, and that’s people insisting others jeopardise their own health for the eltists’ benefit, while refusing to do so themselves and hiding behind their own health problems but making out it’ll be ok if someone else gets it…

        Well thank Christ I’m in reasonable health is all I can say, but I still don’t even want this virus, whether asymptomatically or even a ‘mild’ case, thank you very fucking much.

        The average working joe (99%) has spent the last 12 YEARS paying for the avarice and incompetence of the 1% of hedge funders, bankers and royalty etc to live the fucking life of riley while they toilerd to put a crust of bread on the bloody table.

        And how many of THEM have carked from this virus? Even less than 1% – while the poorest have been disproportionately affected.

        And now we have people from that 99% collaborating with these obscenely affluent parasites to sacrifice ourselves and our livelihoods for the enrichment of the already ludicrously wealthy; and these traitors doing so are barely gonna see any difference to their own quality of life?

        THAT is what I call ‘Pointedly rude’ F complete and total FS. Just WHO the fuck do these people think they are?

      2. All true Toffee, but brianbotou was posting about the infectability numbers and fatality numbers – not lockdown and isolation per se.

        Btw – as brianbotou probably realised – I wasn’t referring to you, but some near-vicious posts earlier in the week from 2 others. You, my good friend, are just a straight-talker (not pointedly rude – even to RH lol), and I respect you for that!

      3. Qwertboi, Bubber definitely has an undeclared agenda, as does RH.
        Whether they’re true blue Tory trolls or not I don’t know for sure, but I do know they’re not supporters of the left.
        On this left wing blog that makes them trolls.

      4. Strange, is it not. Most on this site proclaim to be left wing, proclaim to support Jeremy Corbyn, proclaim to be against all the misrepresentation, selective quotes, spinning of yarns, and all those that attacked anyone or any organization by trying to silence them. Yet, they are using very similar tactics against anyone, any organization any ideas that are against the offical narrative of Covid – 19 . The irony is they don’t see this . As they say in Yorshire there is nowt queerer than folk!

      5. ” Bubber definitely has an undeclared agenda, as does RH.”

        And *we’re* accused of believing in conspiracies?

        The only agenda – openly declared – I have is getting the evidence out rather than the propaganda.

        All the remarks we have made have been referenced to actual data and alternative expert analysis.

        The stuff coming back has almost exclusively just ad hominem denial and frothing incoherent rant a la Toffer, who is more in danger from his evident rabid delusions than from Covid-19 . Which lack of any basis tends to substantiate our case.

      6. Toffee’s right. We should all cower at home behind our masks till the entire economy’s collapsed. Where’s your crust gonna come from then?

        It’s not about lining capitalists’ pockets. It’s about still having jobs to go to so you can pay the bills and put food on the table. There’s a tsunami of job losses on the way and you want to make it worse. Your good health won’t be much good to you (and won’t last long) when you’re living on the pavement!

  12. Toffee, ” there isn’t a scientist on the planet who gets his theory accepted without peer review..”

    Really, well Professor Ferguson and Imperial college did. What happened to the theory about : the bird flu ” pandemic “, the foot mouth epidemic costing thousands of farmers their farms and in some cases their lives and the jobs of thousands in the beef industry, what happened to the theory about the Swine flu ” pandemic ” which costs billions in unnecessary vaccines because of his and Imperials theory.

    Now, we have his Covid -19 theory. His first theory of 500,000 deaths in the UK based on a 13 year old software code which he refused to allow his peers to review. So he and Imperial were forced to review there theory to about 1%. So far 8 countries including Austria have measured the fatalities at between 0 2- 0.46%. His and Imperial theory were taken as gospel by the the usual suspects and their track record is just abysmal. Remember the WMD, 45 minutes to doom we are all going to die unless we invade Iraq and so on. Just to reiterate when someone makes an accusation the onus is on them to prove. You will find this is how the England and Wales criminal justice works.

  13. ”Really, well Professor Ferguson and Imperial college did. ”

    Think you’ll find that that the blairite government who gave the OK to Imperial and their mass culling methods were NOT scientists, and therefore NOT peers.

    …While the dutch (and their scientific peers, Imperial’s equivalents, or should that be ‘betters’?) carried out a mass vaccination programme

    But please DO continue…

    1. [Imperial College epidemiologist Neil] Ferguson was behind the disputed research that sparked the mass culling of eleven million sheep and cattle during the 2001 outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease. He also predicted that up to 150,000 people could die. There were fewer than 200 deaths. . . .

      In 2002, Ferguson predicted that up to 50,000 people would likely die from exposure to BSE (mad cow disease) in beef. In the U.K., there were only 177 deaths from BSE.

      In 2005, Ferguson predicted that up to 150 million people could be killed from bird flu. In the end, only 282 people died worldwide from the disease between 2003 and 2009.

      In 2009, a government estimate, based on Ferguson’s advice, said a “reasonable worst-case scenario” was that the swine flu would lead to 65,000 British deaths. In the end, swine flu killed 457 people in the U.K.

      Last March, Ferguson admitted that his Imperial College model of the COVID-19 disease was based on undocumented, 13-year-old computer code that was intended to be used for a feared influenza pandemic, rather than a coronavirus. Ferguson declined to release his original code so other scientists could check his results. He only released a heavily revised set of code last week, after a six-week delay.

      So the real scandal is: Why did anyone ever listen to this guy?

      They took as gospel his theories.

      You were saying !

      Pray carry on.

      1. Bubber, when foot and mouth strikes the stock is worthless.
        Also there’s the precautionary principle to consider.
        I’ll give you this – you’re a persistent little trolltard.

  14. And WHO implemented ferguson’s theories? Other scientists, or a bunch of civil servants who are NOT scientists, and therefore NOT PEERS?

    Fucking hell, it’s like trying to teach a piece of toast the eight times table.

    1. I see you trying to put the chicken before the egg.

      I also noticed you didn’t contradict Prof Ferguson and Imperial theories. If he hadn’t come up with his theories, Blair and the boys wouldn’t have carried his policies.

      You also overlooked the fact that Prof Ferguson refused to let HIS PEERS look at his 13 year old software for his latest THEORY.

      Still on Janet and John Book one !

      1. Are you some sort of mental deficient?

        When did politicians get to decide that Einstein’s theory of relativity was correct? Or Watson & Crick’s work on DNA?

        They get reviewed – REVIEWED – by fellow scientists (Peers) and THEN it’s either accepted as fact or debunked as myth.

        NOT by politicians, who are NOT scientific peers – you complete and total nuckfugget.


        Ffs… And I thought rh was hard work at times?!

  15. And while nobody should’ve listened to ferguson – nevermind employed him, nobody should listen to your swiss doctor and all his ‘maybes’ and ‘not provens’.

    As I’ve said, I consider meself no less ‘expert’ than these self-nominated ‘experts’. I go off my own observations, and most of what I’m seeing and reading from you and that other imbecile is total bollocks from someone else claiming to be an ‘expert’.

  16. Covid19 is all but over, lets see what happens in November
    More people will die from lockdown
    No Deal Brexit will kill more than both put together

  17. Rob . 2.09pm. It seems you have not been looking at the data from the NHS, it seems you have not noticed how many people have died solely from Covid-19, it seems you fail to grasp that 95% of the unfortunate people who died had 1 or more primary illnesses such as dementia, Parkinson’s, cancer, respiratory illnesses etc.

    Moreover, you don’t seem to have grasped the median age of the people who died was around 60 – 80+ with the largest grouping around the 80+ mark.

    Now, I don’t know of a time when old people didn’t die from cancer, dementia, respiratory illnesses, heart diseases, Parkinson’s etc long before the appearance of Covid- 19.

    Perhaps, you can me tell a period in the last 30 years or so when old people didn’t die like we all die eventually .

    1. Good grief brianbotou , can you not see or grasp for yourself just how callous you sound, it is irrelevant that those who died had or didn’t have previous health issues , its the fact the CV 19 is the final cause of their death , without CV 19 they would still be alive .Had they been effectively protected by early Govt action in locking down and clear and timely action by said Govt they would , right now ,, be alive . My mother in law died of dementia , she laughed and enjoyed her final days right to the end .She was as mad as a hatter but was happy enough. So why would you wish to end her days prematurely with your dismissal of ,,,, well she was old and had dementia .My 88 yr old aunt , bright as a button , walks each morning before anyone else is even up and about ,, 4 or 5 miles up the welsh hill where she lives .Now I am teaching her how to use a Galaxy Tablet and access Zoom and the internet . She is OLD but fuck me is brighter than you or me , why would you end her life early because she is old … Now DO YOU GRASP IT .How utterly callous you appear with your stats and excuses to try and stop the lock down , just to ” get the workers back ” and the economy functioning . The economy will always roll on , no matter what , but those viable valuable human beings will not if people like you have their way .

      I vehemently disagree with any and all of what you say regarding this issue and there is NOTHING you can say that will change my mind . I’d have thought with your brave and honest explanation of your health conditions you might just have had a bit more humanity for your fellow beings .
      You are wrong , misguided , and foolish to peddle this dishonest argument .

      1. If you look at the data from the NHS, the data from health services in other countries, the yarn being spun about the Covid-19 being the return of the Black death won’t wash. No amount of using emotive arguments in place of evidence, data can replace it. Using propaganda techniques of emotive arguments, hyperbole, omission, distortion, silencing opponents to the offical narrative were the tactics used against someone who was against racism for all his life, yet, many became convinced he was a racist. Who says propaganda doesn’t work!

      2. “NOTHING you can say that will change my mind ”

        That is probably true. It’s known as induced delusion – you have fulfilled the objective of the psy-ops group with flying colours.

        … and accusing brianbotou of ‘callousness’ is just plain silly and empty virtue signalling – not an argument. That people die is just a fact. That older people and those with a range of maladies are more susceptible is just a fact.

        And instead of virtue signalling, you might pay more attention, not to those who will die from age-related diseases, but to those who will die at a needlessly early age from delayed medical review and procedures *actually* caused by policy decisions under Lock-Up.

        There is a news item today quoting the concerns of bowel-cancer specialists – just *one* example.

        The Lock-Up has exacerbated mortality – not prevented it. The excuse used was a mild virus for the vast majority of the population – and the sector of the population that it may have affected was *worse* affected because of the Lock-Up.

        People such as us are perfectly aware of mortality in a very personal way, and are also perfectly aware of the *actual* dangers of this virus, and the nature of probabilities. But our acutely sharpened awareness, having had to face such assessment s personally, leads to the conclusion that it is the least of our worries. You might stop and consider why that is.

        I certainly find it much more ‘callous’ not to give a toss about the consequences of economic damage, unemployment, and growing physical and psychological harm amongst the wider population – based on nothing more than politicized bending of information.

      3. @RH I certainly find it much more ‘callous’ not to give a toss about the consequences of economic damage, unemployment, and growing physical and psychological harm amongst the wider population – based on nothing more than politicized bending of information.

        Well that says all we need to know about you RH profit before safety and human beings ,, on this point you are sadly in the same cesspit as the Tories , This Govt and country can easily afford the cost to pay off and support those not in work whilst the virus is dealt with , but your love of the neoliberal ideology amply demonstrated over the last 2 months of obsessive crap spouted by you re , there is no pandemic , its all a conspiracy by the capitalists to destroy their own market!!! , you’d happily see the kids all back in school and the spiking of the next CV 19 wave .
        Glad you are as powerless and irrelevant as me in being the keyboard warrior you are granddad , retire it’s the best option for you .

      4. @Bb “yarn being spun about the Covid-19 being the return of the Black death ”
        That right there once again illustrates your contempt for your fellow human beings , their deaths is nothing more than a “yarn” ..
        I rest my case !
        You and RH are from the same stable no doubt , I even wonder if it ‘s the same entity , but who cares , on this point as I ve said you are both utterly wrong imo and there is nothing you or your alter ego RH can say to change my mind. Hopefully others reading your points will come to the same conclusion regarding you both !

    2. am going to make a few points, I been on the receiving end of ids policies, I also challenged them and won my cases after a 2 year fight that has gone to tribunal, I reported at least one paramedic for ftp concerns and am in the process of preparing another, to do these takes more time than I like because of some computer say no pen pusher, when you put a good argument up against a assessment you end up with nearly a copy and paste reply to the complaint, ids mentality caused me to have a panic attack in a job centre, a third floor appointment and three times I asked to have the appointment on the ground floor, anything that guys says I do not believe, I am currently working two cases, when I talk to one of the people it Is obvious there condition is worsening, they still have to go to tribunal, in the backdrop of Brexit, I as a volunteer am thinking of giving up my roles, I will not be justifying any voluntary hours under universal credit, I will not be doing fruitless job searches for pointless jobs that don’t exist or jobs such a as posting leaflets through doors for commission only (2.5 pages of ads in local jcp) I will not be walking into a pub getting close to someone until r=0, when the evidence supports that then I be more open to normality, I will not be putting myself at risk for ids or nay of his hobos, if he wants to force that then lords first, he can go, spend a month four to a caravan picking fruit at piece rate work, summer recess is coming ideal time, when he done a month a that is safe then I be more open, he will also need to sign a document accepting responsibility, something they find hard to do, until then he can go and do his 1 metre distance thing, I be sticking to two regardless with masks and glasses, should he not like it, well tough, it Is mine and other people’s lifes, if he has a problem with that tough, my choice not some jumped up little tory who really should have answered misconduct in public office charges and If found guilty shipped of to the cell he belongs in, to much of this we can do whatever we like and get away with it, there needs to be rule changes that hold them to account and if that means police, investigation referral to cps, trial and prison if found guilty, of they go

  18. Toffee,” I tell you what’s rude, people hiding behind their own health problems “ You are some kind of fucking cretin, shouting that big obnoxious mouth off when ever you can’t bully, intimidate to get your own way. You are complete fucking arsehole, now fuck off you. You gobshite!!

    1. Listen plums, I just wrote below I was sorry to hear of your plight. That was before I saw your address to me.

      Well, I take that back. You’ve obviously ZERO concern for the health & wellbeing of others with your: ‘We’re all gonna die anyway, so what’s the point?’ attitude.

      To think of the money that’s been wasted on keeping utter maggots like you alive, when you think nothing of suggesting everyone risk their health to save your own miserable skin.


      1. Really, I don’t believe a word that you write, you had no idea what ” my health concerns were” so you do what you normally do when you can’t win in a debate, you start being offensive, uncouth, with a bullying intimidating manner.

        So don’t come the old soldier with me. I told you earlier on today when you had been trawling my posts for selective quotes. I am no meek and mild yoke.

        If you come the cunt, I will give it back. If you want to discuss issues in a reasonable manner. Fine, if you want to be the other way. Fine. I can play it both ways.

  19. If anyone knows about culling the under class, it’s IDS

    In other news, Lord Falconer is again Labour shadow attorney general. You couldn’t write this shit for a political satire…

    How many blows to the head are you going to take????

    1. ”If anyone knows about culling the under class, it’s IDS”

      Amen to that. 😒

      ”In other news, Lord Falconer is again Labour shadow attorney general. You couldn’t write this shit for a political satire…”

      Oh?! Well that just effing marvellous.

      Overseen and advised on more civil liberties removals than any other attorney general in history. Kept everyone distracted for years with the foxhunting bollocks while sneaking all sorts of snide laws in through the backdoor.

      If you didn’t know what stammer’s game was before, then this surely must make the penny drop…

      While BAME people are busy deciding which statues to target; these bastards would like to see all trace of Magna Carta – and it’s memorial – done away with.

    2. “Lord Falconer is again Labour shadow attorney general. You couldn’t write this shit for a political satire…”

      I just hope it stars Peter Capaldi and comes up with a better title than ‘Carry on Pasok-ing the People’s Party”. I’d love it if it starred Alan Bennett and Thora Hird as Sir EriK and Yvette Cooper and had Richard Rockefeller as himself.

      Labour isn’t even funny anymore.

  20. I’m sorry to hear of your plight brian, but ffs , this ‘We all die eventually attitude’ isn’t any sort of excuse for why people should be put at increased risk of injury and/or death.

    A younger, healthier person’s got a better chance of surviving being hit by a bus than you or I have – It doesn’t mean they should go running down the middle of the high street, trying to get hit by one.

    1. Look at the data. Look at the post about the economy. Look at the 25% contraction on the economy and the very bleak outlook for jobs, especially, young people.

      Which is the worst a virus which tragically kills only a very, very, very small number of people both young and not so young.

      I don’t know how old you are , but I well remember the eighties and what it did to my home city. The jobs vacuum filled by crime, drugs, violence and sadly deaths from it and the scourge of drugs which affected many other cities which had record high levels of unemployment.

      So ask yourself the question who gains from this. Well, not the working class, not the young, not the majority of people but the same as last time with the bullshit about austerity which many in the PLP supported.

      It was the banks, the hedge funds, the stock market, the very wealthy investors, the elites.

      In other words the establishment which as I posted earlier with a Grayzone Matt Kennard investigation also without a doubt includes the Knight of the realm.

  21. For a week before the lockdown, people were asked to work from home if possible – my family were all doing that, and many were avoiding going to gathering – not shaking hands, so we were already semi locked down. But cases were still doubling in less than 4 days, so quadrupling in just over a week. One case could turn into 16 cases by a bit over 2 weeks later without mitigation. Or at that rate the nearly 1400 new cases on 24th March could have become over 22,000 cases two and a bit weeks later.

    1. Shockingly there are people here claiming that lockdown was a complete waste of time – that all the cases that made up the peak had already been infected before March 23rd and that therefore lockdown saved no lives – that it cost lives in fact by keeping some sick people out of hospital and making some other people sad.
      That assumes all the most vulnerable died anyway and that isolation, proved effective over centuries, was worse than useless.

      It’s just about conceivable that the handful of the world’s scientists they cite got it right and tens of thousands of others got it wrong, just as it’s conceivable that there’s no such thing as MMGW and that global warming is all down to solar activity – but betting on the majority scientific opinion always makes more sense than backing the long shot.
      Unlike betting on the majority of the electorate getting it right.

      1. Lockdown was a completely OTT measure to buy time for NHS,
        For simple reason scumbags knew if it collapsed that would have been the end of the Tories

    2. The ‘exponential’ model of continuing infection was always rubbish. It doesn’t happen – a peak is reached, themn levelling off and decline.

  22. Listen Mc Bullshit, if you read the posts properly instead of inventing things, I might stop calling you the name you roundly deserve. On the evening shift now are you.

  23. Mc Bullshit, for a man approaching 70, you like to keep late hours. Posting the other day, all day late into the evening until nearly midnight then first post at approximately 5. 30am the next day. Doing a double shift or do you have a doppelganger? Misdirection being one of your specialties is it learnt from your time at the job you had concerning propaganda as you were boasting about the other day.

  24. Toffee, 5.44pm prof Ferguson’s and his theories was taken as written in tablets of stone by whom? His 13 year old software for his latest theory was peer reviewed by whom Micky Mouse and Donald Duck or some eegit with a head like a bag of spanners. Wasn’t you was it. I see every village, town, city has got one and Scouseland is no exception!

  25. Yeah, whatever, brain.

    For someone with a penchant to complain of ad hominem snipes and uncouth language, you do plenty of it yourself. But then again, you want people to risk their health but you wouldn’t – citing your own health as an excuse. Fuck everyone else’s; and especially fuck the young – they MIGHT NOT get the bug, or at least might not get it severely. Fuck the fact that adding further stress onto people is also a massive contributory factor to a plethora of health issues; it’s all about the economy.

    And I don’t doubt for one second that your attitude to those deaths will be along the lines of: ‘So what? Their undiagnosed underlying health issues killed them – not me (meaning you) or dummkopf-schmitt and the hard right fringe, practically demanding ordinary working Joes jeopardise their own health for the 1%’s benefit’

    Just shows the measure of the weasel you are, really.

    1. “ yeah, whatever brain”. As I said to you yesterday, when you can’t win the debate with reasoned arguments, you have start being abusive and like I said to you yesterday, I am no meek and mild middle class yoke who rolls over because you start being offensive. I give it back as you found out and then you begin wailing like a wain. I also said to you, if you want to have a reasoned debate fine, if you want fling insults like you do that’s fine as well. So it’s no skin off my back.

      Now, evidently you are suffering from cognitive dissonance again, in plain language being a fucking eejit. You tried to use emotive terms like “ let’s hope you don’t get ( referring to the virus) and I said it’s the least of my worries. So don’t come the bolllocks with me. It might wash with other people but it doesn’t wash with me so you an piss off with that bundle of shite.

      Again, I see you suffering from twisted viewing again. I said no such thing but of course you accuse other people of spinning . There is no bigger spinner than you whack.

      Just to reiterate, the majority of the deaths caused by solely by Covid-19 are minute ( tragic as all deaths are and I said that yesterday so don’t come the bullshit with me ) and those that did die passed away with primary illnesses, which the NHS and many many many other countries health services have confirmed. In addition, as the NHS and many many many other countries health services have confirmed, the median age of the deaths is between 80-86 years old. So unless you are trying to spin another yarn that old people don’t die unless they have Covid-19 you are full of shit.

      “ Ordinary Joes…” If you looked at the data which I posted from Bloomberg’s near the top of the page, or don’t your mince pies stretch that far to busy cooking up some new yarn, you might have noticed that economy has contracted by 25% and millions and millions of people will lose their jobs, that includes young people’s jobs as well older people, them going back to work is more of your addled brain playing tricks with you.

      In addition, I said yesterday, Cui Bono and said the usual suspects, just like the last time, the banks, hedge funds, financial institutions, stock market, very wealthy investors how did they do this why by Quantitative Easing, printing trillions of pounds, just like they have done on Wall Street recently, just as they have done here. My next door neighbour invested his pension on the stock market before the gestapo incarceration of people ( something else despite your diatribes you scarcely mention, the suspension of the right of assembly, the suspension of the right to move freely, being corralled like sheep meh, meh, meh ) and lost 15% of it . Hey presto as if David Nixon or Ken Dodd were still here the stock market regained all that it had lost despite the millions of people unable to work, despite the. £43,000,000,000 paid out in furlough payments. How, can this be when MANY PEOPLE ARE NOT WORKING. Answer by printing money and overloading the ordinary skins with more debt, more austerity, more slave like conditions. For someone who claims to be a socialist you should have recognised what the craic was.

      The Weasel is you for being a complete numpty and not using your nouse to see what’s going on.

      1. “For someone who claims to be a socialist you should have recognised what the craic was”

        The one thing that this fiasco has done is to sort out token socialism from the real McCoy. The ease of accepting deprivation of civil liberties on the basis of a manufactured narrative spun by a hierarchy of establishment interests is a real litmus test of awareness.

  26. I’m sorry to break up the private ‘love-in’, but don’t you agree that it’s a good job that Thatcher destroyed manufacturing & introduced more ‘Service Industries’ so that women could join the work force & more people can work from home’ Thank God for Tax Havens & the City of London, otherwise the economy would be completely f…….d. Do I have your attention!

    1. Reasoned debate is always welcomed whether I agree with your point of view or not. It shouldn’t be an echo chamber.

      It wasn’t just “ blessed Margaret” as Norman St John -Stevas used to say, but a whole plethora of willing economists, bankers, right wing billionaires in MSM etc who destroyed U. K manufacturing on the back of insane economic policies from Milton Friedman, first introduced into Chile after the coup against Allende and his socialist government, which was instigated by the knight of the realms fellow Trilateral member, the Nobel peace prize Henry Kissinger for murdering more innocents than most of his contemporaries.

      A documentary called “ The Spiders Web: Britain’s Second Empire” explains in great detail when the Tax Havens were set up, why they were set up, who benefits from them and who loses from them. Well worth watching if you haven’t already seen it.

      Of course the Neo Liberal policies have had all the benefits we have enjoyed, Dickensian: work conditions, living conditions, the reintroduction of parish relief via the food banks etc and of course the massive renewal of Corporate Socialism ( that dreaded word that the apparatchiks in the Labour Party plus our knight of the realm abhor) to the tune of £93,000,000,000 nice if you can get it. Looks like they have trousered another container ship of readies at the ordinary skins expense.

      I am all ears and mince pies !!

      1. “… destroyed U.K manufacturing on the back of insane economic policies from Milton Friedman”

        An interesting parallel to the way in which a whackey bit of poor modelling from ICL has been used as the basis for social deprivation policies currently.

        … and, of course, it was also swallowed whole by the gullible – usually linked to the ‘housewife’s purse’ fake model of the economy.

        The most threatening viruses are often social, not physical.

  27. I notice Toffee wrote this amongst the bluster :

    “… why people should be put at increased risk of injury and/or death.”

    Which is a reasonable question

    But – every time you step outside your front door, you are at an increased risk of injury or death.

    So the question is clearly boils down to : “How much risk does each particular circumstance/action entail?”

    What is the *actual* risk from Covid compared to – say – crossing the road; of drowning; of driving a car x number of miles; of being killed by a mass murderer; of dying from influenza or cancer ?

    All else is irrelevant bullshit. Which bullshit has demonstrably been employed by uncontextualised data spouted by government sources.

    Both brianbotou and myself, writing from the point of view of the genuinely more vulnerable population are simply stating that the odds are far, far less than people think if they lack information – and that for the healthy population below retirement age – it’s minimal. The argument is based on assessments of real (as opposed to propagandised and filtered ) data and analysis.

    As a corollary of this, we are simply saying that the damage accruing from stopping normal life is far in excess of that attributable to the virus, and that present measures are ludicrously out of proportion, not previously recommended, and should be substituted by proportionate precautions.

    It’s really as simple as that, and is backed up by numerous open references to various sources. The lack of reasoned argument in response tends to suggest that our case is actually irrefutable.

  28. This being a socialist website, we all here need to understand that attacks from the right and the ‘centre’ come in many forms.
    Fomenting disagreement in our ranks, even on superficially non-political issues, is a worthwhile objective for ‘Integrity Initiative’ and other establishment activists.
    Brexit was one hugely successful manufactured distraction – some ‘centrist’ commenters here are now trying to turn CV19 into another.
    The right don’t need to convince us to vote Tory, they just need to keep us arguing among ourselves.

    1. Fomenting disagreement in our ranks, even on superficially non-political issues, is a worthwhile objective for ‘Integrity Initiative’ and other establishment activists.

      Get Shillfinder General on the case. He’ll find the guilty parties!

      Why does variety of opinion on a comment thread have to be the work of malign outsiders?

  29. “The right don’t need to convince us to vote Tory, they just need to keep us arguing among ourselves”

    … and by supporting fundamental Tory policies.

  30. Well as the financial pages report the rich have lost £6b since the crisis and some CEOs are down 20% on their income, perhaps they are kegging it?
    Whilst they remain in their country retreats or overseas bolt homes they need diverse working people to return to work so its our risk and pain, and the rich gain.
    But it does illustrate that it is the labour of working people that really creates the wealth and makes societies work.
    We need a left wing party that genuinely represents their interests.

    1. oh dear shame, give us a list of there companies and I make sure that I don’t spend anything in them to assist in there misery

    2. The Bank of England is propping up bloated financial markets but doing the economy no good

      30 May 2020 · And, in mid-March, the Bank of England joined in, boosting its quantitative easing programme from £445bn to £645bn in a single bound, a move that helps explain the stock market surge. Our QE …

      Agreed we do need a left wing!

  31. Rob, 6.29 13 th June. Employing selective quotes out of context was something Tony Benn drew attention to when he was asked during an interview why he had a tape recorder running and he said “ so the MSM couldn’t misquote him”.

    Evidently, the notion putting quotes into context is not part of your lexicon. “ That right there again…nothing more than yarn.”

    Note the other parts of the post I made in regards to people”

    Just to reiterate, the, the majority of the deaths caused solely by Covid -19 are minute ( tragic as as all deaths are) .”, “ …millions and millions of people of people will lose their jobs, that include young people’s jobs as well as older people..”

    “ something in your diatribes you scarcely mention, the suspension of the right to move freely, being corralled like sheep meh, meh, meh), “

    ..the stock market regained all that it had lost despite the millions of people unable to work…”, “ by printing more money and overloading the ordinary skins with debt, more austerity, more slave like conditions.”

    No wonder Tony Benn needed a tape recorder. “.

    The Age of Enlightenment occurred during the period 1715-1789 it centred on the sovereignty of reason, evidence, advanced ideals such as liberty, toleration etc. Prior to this, in the 16th century the belief, the consensus was the Sun revolved around the Earth. Copernicus formulated a idea through observation, evidence, data that the Earth revolved around the Sun. He was threatened with death if he continued with this heresy. The official dogma would be maintained regardless of evidence, proof, data. Much in the same way the dogma of Covid -19 being the a “ pandemic “, despite the evidence, despite the proof, despite the data.

    So the dogma still persists !!!

    1. I am amazed that anyone who is a serious socialist or even is just politically aware would think that this Covid-19 scam and economic crash will harm the plutocrats to the benefit of the rest of us.

      Is there a word to describe such delusion beyond the weak term ‘naivety’ ?

    2. Yawwnnnn , as I’ve said you are wasting your time I stopped reading the crap at the first line ( well actually 3rd line in ;-)) ) , maybe I an’t as edukated as you wot wivfe the commas an all , but at least I don’t put profit before peoples lives and safety . You is as powerless as wot I am and it’s funny watching you and RH frothing away at yer keybds not just at me but most of the commentators here who don’t appen to agree wiv your opinions.
      But fortunately we are all allowed our opinions , mine relate more to caring for human beings and not for the profit machine run by the Corporates .
      Maybe you’d be more effective writing to Boris or Dom , I am sure they’d read it and send you an appropriate response .Who know s they may even change policy cos of wot U say .
      Stay home , stay indoors , stay alert , save lives , stop breathing and don’t waste yr data allowance typing crap .
      Bisou Bisou

      1. During the time Labour list had its comments section open, frequently there were posters who when were faced with uncomfortable truths challenging their dogmatic positions, they would employ the same tactics.

        Now, it may have alluded you, but people don’t live by dogma alone, they need to feed their families, pay their rent/ mortgage/ clothe their children and of course they need to be able to do all these things because otherwise it’s a return to the days of hunger marches, children starving, etc.

        Recommended you read George Orwell’s “ Road to Wigan Pier” then you might get a taste of the affects of an economic crisis like the Great Depression which the latest( I know you don’t like these words data, evidence) are showing.

        Definition of dogma according to the Oxford dictionary “ A PRINCIPLE OR SET OF PRINCIPLES LAID DOWN BY AN AUTHORITY AS INCONTROVERTIBLY TRUE” eg the “ Pandemic “ despite the evidence, despite the data it must true because The MSM, The State Broadcaster, Professor Ferguson and Imperial College London’s estimates based on a 13 year old software program set up for INFLUENZA which he refused to let it be peer reviewed must be true!!

  32. On one side we have those who want to defend and support Mrs Canny Body vulnerable old person who used to live down the street but us now in a care home and their community
    On the other those who will defend the country and make the tough decisions that will save 100’s of thousands of lives and the economy
    Keep up the good work lads and lasses

  33. I love language especially bad language
    Tickle my tits till Friday ‘rob’
    Coprophilia RH
    Are two fine examples which I will steal and use, thanks lads

    1. Sounds like you are taking the piss Doug.Thatcher and the establishment worshiped the Market,now you are in danger of the same with the “Economy” .Did it never cross your mind that there needs to be pain before the “Gain” .Let the greedy bastards rot ,We have little to lose and they the Elite have everything to loose.Your Tory speak betrays your comments.

      1. Joseph
        Beyond contempt
        The 3rd sector steps in when government and the markets fail, have spent 23 years helping people who have nothing,
        There is no safety net, people are dying and your doing what ?
        No time for non members, you all want shoved up a dogs arse and the dog cremated
        Time to disappear up your isms

    2. Sorry Doug I can’t lay claim to any originality over that one as I stole it from the film “Shirley Valentine ” but be my guest .
      At least mine is more working class and less posh than , Coprophilia , sounds like something that twat Reesey Smog would use

      1. All the best ones are stolen
        Coprophilia sounds to me like a new Bart Simpson T Shirt

  34. Skwawky
    Can you put up the Reuters image of BLM Protester carrying injured far right protester to safety outside Waterloo station
    Remarkable and something to celebrate

    1. Doug End of q month my membership runs out,and its very sad 😢but one can only be pissed over so many times before even I do not believe its lmpossible to convert a corrupt undemocratic Labour party..Your comments inspire no one..!

      1. Joseph
        Care not a jot
        The only person I have to learn to live with is the ugly fucker in the mirror
        Stay and recruit if it goes tits up in next 12 months then organise challenge and regain control, you cannot do anything if you are outside the tent pissing in
        As things stand you fuckers cannot even organise more than 3% of GMB members to vote for your candidate
        For the love of Kevin Keegan

      2. Joseph , there is life outside of the Labour Party and for those of us who have already seen the light and left , or have been expelled by an utterly corrupt Labour Party system ( 10,000 members ) , then some of us are doing our bit in trying to help establish an embryonic socialist party and stabilise the socialist base.
        I guess there is no harm in letting those who wish to stay and fight a rear guard action against the inevitable Passokifcation , is there even such a word ,,, who cares anyway , of the LP , at least they might help sap some of the energy of the RW bastards in the party .
        In any case should the efforts be successful and a new democratic socialist party emerges then that will give those socialists still in LP a ship to jump to .Should it fail , there is also the chance, all be it a very faint one , that the LP maybe turned around into a socialist party that represents the working class ( by those working from within , very doubtful indeed now under Starmer ) .
        With it’s present leadership and it’s bureaucracy packed with right wing bastards , it will be / is / nothing more than Tory lite.

      3. rob
        Do the maths agree the slate, we have the numbers
        Rejoin and recruit
        I have no clue who are the best people on the left, happy to take your word on that
        As things stand to many on here are extra’s from a Monty Python sketch or characters in Citizen Smith
        Get real, stand and fight what’s in front of you

      4. Thank you Doug , agreed re characters some tho not all !
        The Forward Momentum initiative is the vehicle that’s best suited at present imo , NOT Momentum Renewal , similar but it has existing NCG candidates on its slate , whereas FM has totally new ones ,,, a breath of much needed fresh air.
        That’s for those like yourself fighting within the Party , those like me outside , then I support with donations (small) and help , the few ,at present , viable socialists parties.
        Yes there maybe the numbers of mass membership in the LP at present , but they are totally neutered and rendered ineffective by the rules and the ” alternative agenda interests groups ” think here of the A.S initiative .The no doubt forthcoming additional rule changes will remove what little membership lead democracy it has ,you only need look at the new GS to realise that .
        Chris Williamson is right on this point and putting aside his understandable emotions regarding how appallingly he has been treated by the Labour Party , when he says its a forlorn hope then I agree .

        The ultimate hope imo is that FM grows and strengthens such that it becomes a viable alternative .It’s not right now as it’s not under attack that much from the party hierarchy. Only when the attacks both overt from the gobshites MPs in the PLP and more subtle from within and undermining it ( like Lansman did ) when they start to come thick and fast then we know that it is viable . There is imo a small pool of socialist MPs and especially those of colour who have been so appallingly treated by the LP MP’s ( Jess Phillips Vs Diane Abbott ) and it’s hierarchy + staffers see the leaked report who should / could form the nucleus of transforming Fwd Mom from an organisation to a full on political party .

        Stay and fight internally , yes by all means , but also support those who fight externally through choice having left on principles or have no choice being unjustly expelled by a corrupt LP bureaucracy .We fight for the same socialist ideals and recognising that under Starmer and his neoliberal s they don’t have the same ideals or agenda .

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