2 polls show Labour must hold firm against centrist remain/referendum push

Polls reveal Labour rebounding in spite of constant centrist efforts to push party to remain stance

Labour centrists led by Tom Watson have spent weeks attempting to push Labour into a remain stance.

In spite of Labour’s win in the Peterborough by-election and the humiliation of Wes Streeting on BBC This Week on Friday when interviewer Andrew Neil pointed out his position would see Labour negotiating a better Brexit deal and then campaigning against it, the narrative has not abated or changed course.

That narrative has relied on EU election results and subsequent polls to support the claim that Labour must adopt a remain position to fight off remain parties.

But polling by Survation and Opinium both suggest that the foundations of the narrative are collapsing and Labour are bouncing back.

Suvation’s poll of Westminster voting intention shows Labour leading in almost every scenario – and even in the worst case, level top:

Opinium’s poll of Westminster voting intention shows Labour with a clear lead over all other parties – more than enough to be the largest party in Parliament:

Opinium’s comparative polling also shows Labour gaining from both leave and remain voters:

By contrast, if Labour were to adopt a remain position, the consequences would be disastrous, as one of the MPs who signed an open letter to Corbyn urging him to reject pressure to swing to remain pointed out:

The claims by Corbyn’s opponents and other hard remainers that the people of the UK want to stop Brexit or put the issue to another referendum persist and will continue to be amplified by helpful media.

But the latest polling strongly suggests that Jeremy Corbyn and his team must resist calls to any attempt to overturn the 2016 result, just as an array of Labour MPs in leave-supporting seats stated last week in a public letter.

Edit 26/6/19: This article originally contained a third poll concerning voter sentiment about remaining in the EU. It has been removed because of questions about its applicability.

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61 responses to “2 polls show Labour must hold firm against centrist remain/referendum push

  1. How about having some polls to find out who should challenge Twatson, and then Labour finally taking notice?

    • Tut, tut wlbcarepants: have you not yet sussed that the policy of this website is constantly to condemn Watson whilst never actually pressing to arrange a challenge to him (and therefore a vote for the party members)?

      By contrast it is revealing that more and more party members leaving comments on the site crave an actual challenge.

      • So it should condemn Watson!
        He of descent and unworthiness.
        He who doesn’t want a Government of Socialist beliefs with a Leader who’s done nothing but increase the membership to the biggest in Europe!
        He who craves and pursues the Centrist Right Dogma!
        I voted for him to be Deputy what a mistake that was!
        I along with many knowing we are part responsible for his Fiasco Reign as Deputy Leader!

  2. What an odd interpretation by SkwaWkbox. Not one recent poll suggests Labour would have anywhere near a majority if there was a General Election tomorrow. It’s not even clear Labour would end up with the most seats. Since the 2017 GE, Labour’s polling figure has varied, but generally has been downwards. Labour is doing something drastically wrong, and to suggest their strategies are correct is misleading. I don’t have the answers but, on the basis of the very polls SkwaWkbox constantly refers to, it appears, sadly, neither does Jenny Corbyn.

    • Joe, what you have to remember is SKWAWKBOX is just as much a propaganda site as any of the others but even though it is OUR propaganda site we need to be careful to recognise its bias and spin. Regarding Brexit, Skwawky is biased in favour of the left wing dinosaurs in the Party who are just as much Little Englanders as their right wing counterparts and I say that as a firm left winger.

      By constantly urging rejection of another vote and Remain, Skwawky is doing immense harm to Corbyn and our Party by encouraging what is in effect a far right narrative, making us little different to the majority of Tories in the eyes of the public.

      Knowing what we now know about the referendum i.e. that it was ‘won’ using lies, illegalities and subterfuge, we are perfectly justified in insisting that it be run again and because we also know there is no form of Brexit which will benefit the country we must, as we did previously, stick to our Remain position and not cave in to demagogues such as Farage and the extreme right fascists and racists like Boris Johnson.

      • The problem is Jack, you are just as susceptible to right wing propaganda as you perceive from Skwawkbox.

        63% of people did not vote in the EU elections leaving both leavers and remainers in a minority all of their own.

        Yes Brexit does damage Labour, but in real terms the policy would be far more damaging to Labour if we took your side of the argument and supported the undemocratic second referendum. After all the remainers were very keen to voice the opinion that a referendum is not binding by law. Showing so long as they win to hell with the views of anyone else.

        Remainers always think they take the moral high ground because the Tories are seen as racists and botched up the negotiations (which might be deliberate anyway), but forget that Neo-Liberal corporate Europe is no different to this country.

        There is an alternative strategy that safeguards all our interests but it appears to me that dogma reigns on both sides of the argument, forgeting that we as a sovereign currency issuer are in a far better position to protect the people of this country than any European country tied into the ECB regulations on the Euro.

        The fact that no doubt goes over most peoples heads, is that Hunt is proposing we go to war with the US over a false flag war with Iran. Which should tell the discerning that we have always got money to fight Americas wars, but never any to properly fund our public services. Meaning Money is no object in this country, but getting rid of the Tories is. That is the real problem as long as they remain in office, and heads are turned away from the real issues facing us all, we will be trapped by Neo-Liberal governments into the future.

        So wake up and smell the coffee.

      • rotzeichen – We are already trapped in an overarching neoliberal policy. That’s what Brexit is in it’s conception – a pet of the extreme right money men.

      • Richard,

        We’ve been in the firm grasp of a neoliberal mindset for more than 40 years, indeed, the introduction of neoliberal economic prescriptions goes back to the IMF loan issued to the UK in 1976 – see strings attached to said loan, which was paid off promptly.

        I dare not make mention of EEC/EU Treaties since 1993, this being the period the EEC morphed into the EU and the groundwork set for monetary union – you may like to check out Otmar Issing’s account of this in his book, The Birth of the Euro, whilst also checking out opinion by Jurgen Stark, formerly of the Bundesbank and ECB executive Officer.

        So, given we are in the firm grasp of a neoliberal mindset that has poised vast swathes of our Body Politic, you then have a go at those who think neoliberalism has not gone far enough, so we’ll aim for neoliberalism on steroids, who, within the global financial community are very much a minority – most large global financial institution being very much Remain.

        Off course, talking about neoliberalism on steroids, should we perhaps discuss the push for the Transatlantic Trade & Investment Partnership, brought to us by our wonderful EU Commission – is this not an example of neoliberalism on steroids and the mindset of our leaders across Europe?

        If we must propagandise, lets at least have the courtesy to be honest about it, rather than act in a manner ‘holier than thou’ detached from what’s really happening, namely our masters adore neoliberalism and are captured by it.

      • Christopher – no one is disputing the neoliberal nature of the current environment, and the need to turn it round.

        The argument is simply about the historical denial that neglects the UK’s role in promoting neoliberal extremism (not inflicted by the EU), the plain fact of the genesis of Brexit as a policy of the extreme right and the incredibilty of Lexiteer isolationist mythology providing a counter to the neoliberal program of Brexit.

        What is obvious is that all the Lexit arguments have been blown out of the water as credible solutions, and that, despite the downsides, the UK is far better staying in close association with its European neighbours, rather than becoming a servile client of Trumps neoliberal US.

      • The problem is rotzeichen you appear to be rather confused. Just because some on the right agree with me, it does not mean that I am suscepible to their propaganda.

        Far from a second referendum being undemocratic as your confused mind appears to believe. It cannot be undemocratic to ask everone if they have changed their minds now they have more information, they can either say yes or no. Or is that too much democracy for you?

        Have you never changed your mind over anything?

      • Stewart960130 The problem with the report you linked to is that it is based upon false assertions and myths about what we as a Socialist government could and could not do as members of the EU. They have been dealt with many times in these columns.

        The Tory governments own reports show that there is no such thing as a good Brexit. The Leavers including Lexiters refuse to accept reality.

    • The regular Remainer Trolls are in a bit of a bind with these latest polls – clearly showing the electoral disaster that would occur in our Labour heartlands if the Party adopted Remain. OVER 48 seats potentially to be lost to the likes of the Brexit Party FFS ! So its full-on distracting “white noise” bullshit from them all to try and somehow discredit Skwawkbox for simply recounting what all the polls now say.

      • More fantasy from he of the delerium who sees ‘trolls’ everywhere.

        You just don’t understand, do you Ha’Penny? The Brexit voters have already gone. The *Labour* ones are those at risk – and they are heavily Remain in all constituencies and classes.

        Have a look at Scotland if you want to see the Leave future for Labour.

  3. Or the increase in Labour support could be because of Labour’s perceived shift in policy regarding a Confirmatory Vote.

    • The hard facts are that nothing substantial has changed. Sqwawkbox has this habit of clinging on to one-off fluctuations in the polls *when it suits* whilst ignoring the accumulation of evidence. Moaning about Watson is much easier than dealing with the broader reality.

      The simple counter would be to quote YouGov polls, which paint a different picture. Of course, that would provoke howls about bias – because the results don’t suit. I prefer to just factor in the fact that their sampling and analysis tends to produce results weighted in a partcular way, and probably underestimate Labour support.

      Putting all that aside, the overall picture, looking at the moving average of polls, hasn’t changed much – with both Tories and Labour continuing to show remarkably low levels of support, with the Farrgos taking votes from the Tories and LibDems and Greens from Labour.

      Nothing much is certain, but one thing is – the equivocal Labour policy hasn’t produced any growth in support. Quite the reverse : the loss since 2017 has been in the order of a massive 20%.

      The policy has had absolutely no positive effect in reclaiming crucial Scottish seats, and the flakiness of the solid vote was vividly illustrated in the local elections. Peterborough was a great achievement by the troops on the ground – but, given the desperate state of the Tories, was hardly a stunning victory; in fact, it actually illustrated the parlous state of the Labour vote.

      Scrabbling for Leaver votes and mimicking essential Tory policy is neither sensible nor becoming for a progressive party, and most analysis clearly demonstrates that the main danger is the leakage of votes to LibDems and Greens (4:1 is the onclusion).

      Beyond that, an internationalist party shouldn’t be indulging in this Tiny England stuff : it’s unconvincing to be voicing the views of the comfortable southern base of the Tory Party that’s been in evidence in this leadership campaign, particularly when the basis of the Labour Party and its support is firmly in the ‘Remain’ camp. And that applies across all social classes.

      One question that is unanswerable is how different the picture might have been had Labour, at an earlier stage, made a convincing stand in opposing the Tories on Brexit, and shaping the debate rather than slipstreaming the opposition. I reckon the declining line of the ‘moving average’ graph might have told a very different, and credible, story.

      • RH, yes a much earlier decision on establishing our position, rather than hedging to see which way the wind blows, would have given the public a far more favourable view of our commitment and determination to deal with the Brexit mess.

  4. The Blairite Right Wing of the Party with their second referendum demand want us to “do an Erdogan” and make people vote again when they do not like the decision of the electorate. I reckon they have never had enough regard for the likelihood of suffering the same fate as Erdogan in any PV poll, which emerge as a prime opportunity for the voters to kick the Political Establishment Elite up the backside.

    • Such a stupid comparison that it undermines any analysis you make.

      The only comparison is with the underlying plain stupidity of simple majorities being taken as determining binding decisions on constitutional issues.

      … and, of course ‘the electorate’ didn’t even vote for the propsition in any convincing way. It was a 37% minority – the sort of vote Erdogan would celebrate as ‘victory’.

      Sorry if the overall facts don’t suit a crap ideology.

    • Danny, your ignorance regarding knowlege of Erdogan’s methods does you proud. Democracy and ‘Erdogan’ do not belong in the same sentence other than in ‘Erdogan doesn’t give a damn about democracy’. I rather expect he has no time at all for voting, dictatorship is more his style.

      • I think Clem Attlee’s views on referendums as applied to to the likes of Erdogan are a bit more credible than Danny’s wishing upon a star and his defence of profound illogicality re. democracy.

    • Danny 24/06/2019 at 5:57 am

      Garry Kasparov (@Kasparov63)
      13/12/2016, 19:08
      The point of modern propaganda isn’t only to misinform or push an agenda. It is to exhaust your critical thinking, to annihilate truth.

  5. I would try and use small words for the brexit fanatics but even that is a waste of breath.
    Ahhh what the hell one more time I guess, If we Brexit it will be a hard right wing Brexit not the mythical Lexit some people on here get all breathless about.

    There will be No NHS worth mentioning, No Social Security worth mentioning, No workers rights worth mentioning, No environmental protections worth mentioning.

    If Corbyn gets in it will be in charge of the smouldering wreckage of England and maybe Wales, there will be no money to enact any of the policies he and his team want to introduce. Best case scenario is he spends his entire time just getting the country back to the position it is in now.

    A Boris Brexit that I see some people on here cheering for will cause the economy to retract by about 18-22% the last recession in 2008 was 6-8% i know blah blah experts blah willy of the peeple blah blah Demmmocraccceee blah blah liberal elleete blah.

    • When you’re at the bottom the pit retraction of the economy doesn’t seem to be as big a problem as it does for the more comfortably off.Brexit talk seems more a hobby for the chattering classes and the thought of a boris Johnson led party a way for Labour to win a general election.sooner!If only we could lose Watson?

      • “When you’re at the bottom the pit retraction of the economy doesn’t seem to be as big a problem …”

        The truth of that statement lies in the word ‘seem’ – i.e it’s an illusion based on having to deal with day-to-day problems.

        But it isn’t wisdom. The state of the economy in general is absolutely critical to achieving any remedy for the Tory-inflicted harm that has been done over the past ten years.

        Again – the reverse fictional class typifications contained in the phrase : “Brexit talk seems more a hobby for the chattering classes” is just a knucle-dragging reversal of Eton-bred stupidity – not an insight.

    • That is why your campaign is failing. You cannot resist insulting Leave voters. Insults never persuade anyone.

    • @Will C,

      Hate to rain on your parade, and total ignorance with regard Lexit – a pan-European Group of Socialist opposed to Brussels present economic trajectory, or indeed DIEM25, another pan-European Group opposed to Brussels.

      With regards your knowledge of our monetary system, to say that is woeful would be an understatement, but for your benefit, it is impossible for a sovereign issuer of currency to go bankrupt, particularly given we operate a fiat currency and collect taxes via said fiat currency.

      Indeed, perhaps if you’d do a little research, may I suggest checking out the Bank of England’s own research, or that of the Bundesbank, you’d note that both Institutions acknowledge that money, that is money creation, is actually undertaken via magic in the form of debt, namely, debt issuance creates money, which many refer too as magic money.

      • I fear that most of your comment will go over the heads of people generally.

        The constant refrain I hear from those that do speak from knowledge, is that irrespective of the facts, people would rather stick to the myths they hear peddled by the media than actually look at the facts on the ground. I personally have put the Bank of England’s own bulletin (explaining how money enters the economy) under peoples noses, and they still won’t believe it.

        As you know, it is a physical impossibility for our country to ever go broke, or run out of money, but people just believe the myth that our country is just like a household, and can only spend money raised by taxation. In contrast of course that is the very real situation in Europe, where each country has to earn Euros through trade, treating them as a household that must earn money before they can spend.

        But remainers never hear about that, and when I have explained it to them they say well we must, all campaign together to get it changed, neatly forgetting that the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties make that impossible, then they say but I love being pa part of Europe, which is an emotional not a rational position to take.

      • christopher rogers: “it is impossible for a sovereign issuer of currency to go bankrupt.”

        You would agree that when other nations lose confidence in a nation’s currency its exchange rate plummets until it can no longer afford its essential imports – and that runaway inflation ensues, correct?

        In what meaningful way is that different to bankruptcy?

      • McNiven,

        I see you wish to play the Zimbabwe Card, which is below contempt as actually you desire to act a smart-arse and suggest real life economics, rather than fantasy neoclassical economics, which most practice, is all about MMT, which it ain’t.

        However, Stephanie Kelton, who actually does practice MMT, has answered this one, as has Michael Hudson and Bill Mitchell, so I’m confident readers can make their own minds up if they dig around – or, is it now absolutely necessary to keep providing links, rather than doing our own research and making our own minds up with original source material.

  6. Last recession 2008 & no expert saw it coming, but Darling bailed out the banks. The European Central Bank found an opportunity to bankrupt Greece, but if GB asks them nicely they may still toss you a coin in the form of an extortionate loan. 13 years of Blair/Brown New Labour & where was the Worker’s Rights Legislation? Thatcher’s anti-union legislation never challenged in the New Labour era, but you will still follow their lead; Mandy & Campbell still call you ever deeper into the promised land of Macron, Merkel & Globalisation.

    • Steve, Greece as admitted by Varoufakis and others, got itself into trouble and as for a loan from the EuCB, why would we need one? Please stop spinning situations to suit your Lexit position.

      • Sorry Comrade Jack, but Varoufakis admits in both books, that the European Central Bank lent Greece money that it did not need @ a rate that it could never pay back. This money was quickly syphoned back to the Deutche Bank in the form of debts repaid.
        Why would we need a loan? GB manufacturing has collapsed since joining EU & our economy has become dependant on ‘service industries’, the City of London & the ‘gig economy’ of cheap immigrant labour. Employers no longer train our young kids as ‘apprenticeships’ no longer exist in their traditional form. We need a ‘Socialist’ Labour Gov’t asap to stop the EU disease of ‘Quantative Easing’ & zero interest rates. What happens if EU economies continually print money without collateral? The bubble will burst sooner, not later. Socialism starts here in Britain, go find Socialist gov’ts in EU………then we can pontificate.

      • A good try Steve but you are still using smoke and mirrors to deflect blame on to the EU for faults with domestic governments.

        Quite rightly, banks are generally distrusted, for their rapaciousness during a dept crises, so true to form you pounce on the ECB and point the finger as a way to get the under informed stressed about the EU – typical tactics of Farage. Aren’t you ashamed?

    • La La Land again – nothing to do with the consequences of leaving the EU – which will be a leaky canoe drifting around in mid-Atlantic whilst the rest of the world continues to laugh at the big boys chucking rocks at it.

      Bottom line – if Boris, the ERG and the tiny Lexit brigade reckon it’s a good idea – get out your life jackets.

      • You need a new line in Project Fear
        definition of insanity is
        How many of PF’s predictions came true last time,
        And who can forget the genius of Sadiq calling 17.4 million people racist at Wembley, how did that go
        Is that still your line, thick northern working class racist
        Give us your best shot at damage done by Labour brino
        Then add in benefits of Labour manifesto
        Are you still predicting a net loss to economy

    • Steve Sir,

      Many economists saw the writing on the wall as far as the Great Financial Crisis is concerned, among them Prof. Steve Keen and the Bank of International Settlement’s Claudio Borio – that no one wished to listen is what should alarm.

  7. Pingback: 3 polls show Labour must hold firm against centrist remain/referendum push | sdbast·

  8. Hate to shit in snowflake red Tory neverenders custard but
    FPTP is winner takes all
    At very least Labour is largest party

  9. Brexit: Unions overwhelmingly back new referendum as pressure on Corbyn mounts
    “Survey finds almost two-thirds want public to have Final Say and 60 per cent want Labour to campaign for Remain – after party leader pledged to listen
    Trade unionists overwhelmingly back a fresh Brexit referendum, a survey has found, as Jeremy Corbyn consults them ahead of a possible shift in Labour policy.
    Almost two-thirds of union members support a Final Say public vote, it showed – rising to more than three-quarters of those who backed Labour at the last general election.
    They also want Labour to campaign for the UK to stay in the EU by a three-to-one margin and are three times more likely to vote for a Labour Party fully backing a referendum than deterred from doing so.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/trade-unionists-second-brexit-referendum-jeremy-corbyn-shadow-cabinet-a8971361.html

    • SteveH,

      It would seem you are clutching at straws again and placing far too much emphasis on small Polls – lets just say as a member of Unite I was not contacted to participate in this Poll – actually, I’ve never been contacted to participate in any Poll, despite registering to do so.

      Anyhow, apart from hysterical reportage on said Poll by Peter Kellner, at this junction in time I’m unable to actually source the original material – data sets – or the Survey itself with examples of the questions asked.

      So, until then, it really is difficult to have an opinion given we don’t have the Full Poll results to work with, of course, if you do have the full survey, please provide a link.

      Meanwhile, a Petition organised by a Party Member, Chelley Ryan, is doing the rounds on Social Media, thus far it has elicited more than 1,000 signatures opposing Tom Watson’s interventions and supporting the present Labour Policy passed by Conference in September 2018, given most of those signing are Trades Unionists, I wonder how much weight we should give to this given the weight you desire to place on a Poll of less than 2,000 persons?

      • Who is clutching at straws, it’s not me.

        At its conference last year, TSSA became the first Labour-affiliated trade union to back another referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU. It was soon joined in its support for a public vote by GMB and Community, and more recently by Unison.
        TSSA general secretary Manuel Cortes, who has been supportive of Jeremy Corbyn but critical of Labour’s Brexit position, said: “I’m delighted our union has again made it clear we stand strongly against Brexit. It is nothing more than a mad Tory creation, which poses a clear and present economic danger the working people of this country.
        “The only people who would benefit from Brexit are those with money to burn and zealots like Nigel Farage. It would amount to a victory for the xenophobic and nationalist right and set the UK back many decades.”

      • Well yes Steve, lets focus on the xenophobic and nationalist Right, namely the Tories and the Brexit Party groupies, and lets ignore the austerity enabling, racist, toxic immigration enabling LibDems who are whiter than white, despite all records I can find in Parliament between 2010-2015 painting a different, more realistic picture.

        Still, please have the Party adopt a anti-exit strategy and support a People’s Vote or whatever they are naming it today and hope you’ll take ownership of this outcome.

        Lets urinate on 17.1 million people, that really is the answer and I’m confident each and all will thank you for your generosity. Not.

  10. A little bit of input here regarding these three Polls, and an actual Poll of Poll that gives Labour a 26.1% share of the Vote, in what is now a four way tussle, with the LibDems on 16.4%, Tories on 22.1% and Brexit Party on 19.8% – UKIP, Change UK & Greens making up the other 9.9% – SNP figures and Plaid Cymru omitted – not by me!

    First, I’m hardly whooping for joy shall I say, particularly given the numbers Farage is Polling, so, the Labour Party is threatened by a pincer movement from the Right and from the less Right (Centrist neoliberals), so, what ground are we fighting over here?

    Essentially we are fighting over the Leave votes in more than 400 constituencies across the UK, the other ground being the Remain constituencies – note the imbalance here.

    So, in order to appease SteveH et al, according to their brief, Labour has to abandon its leave voters, which constitutes some 35% of our previous electorate, and concentrate on our Remain voters who’s seats themselves are under pressure from Farage.

    Having qualified past voting patterns in Wales at an Assembly, EU and Westminster level since 2005, its clear based on the Assembly vote that the Brexit Party would either take seats from Labour, or erode Labour’s actual polling to allow the Tories, as second Party to take the seat.

    My assumption is, if I’m allowed to make assumptions is this pattern would be replicated in the North East, North West and the Midlands, which would mean no Labour Government as all losses cannot be offset by metropolitan votes/gains, if any.

    Now, our position is clear, we are opposed to a No Deal Brexit, not Brexit itself, which the Electorate voted for – so, what’s up for grabs, is it the Brexit deal itself, if one were possible, or how do we cope in a post-Brexit landscape?

    Again, we have the Remain brigade, with its false economics, stating we’ll have industrial & economic ruin, whilst the more forward thinking and Progressive commentators are of an opinion that monetary & fiscal policy can be aligned to offset a huge economic shock – I suggest posters read Bill Mitchell’s Blog that covers in detail this issue from a Treasury and UK Labour Party point of view – and he ain’t happy with ‘Fiscal Rules’, which are plain daft. Are you listening John McDonnell?

    I’ll leave it there as difficult to read the landscape when we don’t know which idiot will be running the Tories and the nation.

    • christopher rogers at 2:24 pm

      This poll was taken shortly before this year’s EU Election. Just imagine, for a moment, how much of a boost this would have given Labour if these polling results had been translated into EU Election votes. .

      What we could have had
      https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1130900865995485184

      European Election Voting Intention IF Labour ‘Became Pro Remain and Promised an in/out 2nd Referendum’:

      LAB: 36% (+12)
      BXP: 30% (-2)
      CON: 11% (=)
      LDM: 9% (-6)
      NAT: 4% (=)
      CHUK: 3% (-1)
      UKIP: 3% (+1)
      GRN: 2% (-4)
      Via @ComRes, 17 May. Changes w/ Regular poll.
      11:19 AM – 21 May 2019

      • Thank you Steven,
        And, have said Poll Results been extrapolated and spread across the UK giving a clear indication of gains and losses in any GE – without me of course stating the obvious, that many working class voters outside major urban areas are never Polled, which means the only actual Poll we have to extrapolate from is the EU Parliamentary one, Council elections being biased by local issues.

        Further, it great for Labour to see such a rise, no doubt in the more leafy middle class metropolitan areas, which if translated into real votes would be excellent.

        My issue is this, we live in a FPTP system where winner takes all, so, it matters in the least how many vote Labour in one Constituency, lets say 100% as you only gain one seat – the Clinton mob made that mistake in 2016, namely, its a fact Ms Clinton won more votes than Trump, however, as their Electoral College is based on FPTP, it mattered not how many Californian’s issued a vote against Trump as it was Electoral College votes that mattered, so Trump cleared up.

        Again, would it not be wiser to see whom the Tories are presenting us with as Leader – its a risible choice, and then start making calculations given Hunt probably won’t endorse a ‘No Deal’ Brexit, the Blonde one will though.

      • I.E. Labour would NOT WIN perhaps pro-Brexit many would come home and we have a better of getting over the line. Would have won last time if
        many Right Wing Lab MPs had not spent the previous year slagging JC off in the media!

  11. A must read speech by John McDonnell

    The full text of John McDonnell’s speech today on the economy and Labour’s plans for sustainable investment.

  12. As Welsh opinion seems to stand for zero on this board, was surprised to see Stephen Kinnock MP – hardly a member of the Brexit Brigade or Lexit Brigade, making a firm stand, well probably his wife, but at least they understand the maths.

    Here’s Kinnock acknowledging what many in Leave areas acknowledge:

    “Femi, it’s time you got real. The refusal of 2nd ref advocates such as yourself to compromise has played directly into the hands of Farage and the ERG, and now you’ve put the fate of the country in the hands of 160,000 no-dealers. Btw, I wld NEVER support no deal, under any circs”.

    If Mr Kinnock is worried about his own seat in Aberavon, where he enjoys a comfortable majority, translates to the fact that all Labour Welsh Valley seats are threatened – although Owen Smith seems silent on this issue.

    Still, we are but Welsh Windbags unable to comprehend complex political realities!

    • Good post SB.
      It could be argued that Brexit is an historical
      Storm and it is almost amusing to hear the poorly read Right and uncritical Left doing summersaults in arguments as they hold up their hands in the face of it to try to stop it.
      But perhaps better to ride the storm and steer it in left wing democratic socialist direction.
      Accept Brexit – a 2nd PV would be electoral suicide.
      You have a choice A Transformative Corbyn Govt OR a 2nd PV and oblivion?
      ‘INTERREGNUM.
      The old order, Neo-Liberalism is dying.
      But the new cannot yet be born.
      Perhaps we are all being tested.
      And only the stars will ride the storm!’

  13. Jesus “stars will ride the storm” seriously, well back in the real world I’m disabled person who works part time in the north east with a wife who works in the NHS and a 3 yr old son.

    Now the storm a lot of you fuckwits have a hard on for is likely to result in me losing my job and my benefits being cut or removed again, there is also a high chance it will fuck my wife over when the NHS is sold off. Finally I would really like my son not to be raised in some right wing 1870’s theme park that gets moggy and the erg all wet.

    Some simple questions for the Brexiters?

    1. Who is currently in charge of the country?

    2. Who is in charge of Brexit?

    3. Who will be in charge after we Brexit?

    4. Who in the above mentioned answers is bringing us this socialist utopia?

    As far as I can tell the entire Lexit plan boils down to
    1. Let the right burn the country down
    2. ??????
    3. ??????
    4 . Socialist utopia

    Thought of the day “not all brexiters are racists, but all racists were brexiters”

    • I’m with you wholeheartedly Will C.
      I’m a pensioner with health problems and not well off.
      As long as we stick together against the Centrist Right Wing, we will all be better off with A Jeremy Corbyn Government!

    • Another thought for the day, and your strangely selective claims, “Will C”. A Labour Party prepared to completely renege on Brexit in any form cannot win a General Election. The polling figures in our key Labour Heartlands are quite clear. So you want a Tory Government to continue to “burn the country down ” .

      Secondly, the NHS is being sold off NOW, and broken via fragmentation and underfunding . Membership of the EU has made no difference. Hadn’t you noticed ? It is the Tory Government (with full EU Single Market rules approval) that has impoverished the NHS and Social Care – and ONLY a Labour government , secured by a radical future Manifesto offer on a protecting jobs and standards and market access-based Brexit, can successfully negotiate the next complex detail stage of such a Brexit.

      Excuse my cynicism, but I view your claims about being job endangered (AND your benefits cut too you claim ?) and your wife’s care being threatened specifically by BREXIT – not a Tory government, as the selective myopic verbiage of a Remainer troll – as with your convenient fellow Troll , “pensioner” bbbarabas. Good try Trolls – But no coconut ! And your smug Guardianista “all racists were Brexiters ” meme is of course bollocks. That hostile environment creating Home Secretary Theresa May voted to Remain for a start .

      • jpenney 24/06/2019 at 10:04 pm

        “A Labour Party prepared to completely renege on Brexit in any form cannot win a General Election. The polling figures in our key Labour Heartlands are quite clear.”

        Which polling figures, could you post a link so that we can all be as ‘well informed’ as yourself?

      • What General Election are you talking about winning or losing?

        Since no Brexiters will answer as expected the correct response to my questions is.

        1. The Tories

        2. The Tories

        3. The most Right Wing Tory government in history.

        4. None of them there going to screw the country for personal gain.

        We have to deal with the actual reality of the situation now, not some fantasy that exists only in an alternative reality where Labour are in charge of Brexit and the Country.

        I voted remain and have no issue saying that, in regards to supporting Brexit I could possibly see myself supporting a negotiated exit in which Labour and Corbyn were in charge
        during negotiations and after we left.

        However that’s not the case if we Brexit now it will be under the most extreme Tory government ever, who will also be in charge afterwards with almost unlimited power thanks to the exit legislation they passed.

        Honestly I don’t give a shit if your that paranoid you just think I am some paid troll, the reality is I am a Labour member who joined to vote for Corbyn in the 1st leadership election and I voted for him again in the second and I would vote for him again.

        I think the Liberal Democrat’s are yellow Tories who would give up any principles they “hold” if given a sniff of a ministerial car by the Tories.

        I think Tom Watson is a slimey opportunist who needs replacing immediately.

        I believe the country needs a Corbyn government desperately and I will continue to work and vote for this.

        I also believe that Hard Brexit is a terminally stupid idea that will result in the break up of the UK and give the Tories the excuse they are looking for to decimate the country for personal gain.

        In fact looking at the slimey Brexiters like Boris,Farage,Moggy,the ERG and there fellow travellers I suspect they have been reading the Civil Contingency Act with great interest and while that may be a little Paranoid keep in mind all the Tory leadership candidates were willing to dissolve parliament to get Brexit through.

      • We are still waiting for a link to those polling figures. Is there a reason why you don’t want to share these results with us?

    • Will C,

      Could you elucidate on the Lexit masterplan please for Brexit, which very strangely does not actually exist – so, do provide a link to allow me to comment on said Plan and have my own input.

      And, and as perhaps others will point out, we are already in a dystopian world of a Tory Government and member of the EU – you are aware I trust that we are actually members, rather than innocent bystanders, so, if life is dystopian now, could you instruct who is to blame, or is the Lexit crowd again you so evidently have zero understanding about.

  14. Woooossshhhhhh that’s the sound of you missing my point and proving it at the same.

    Yes I am aware there is no Lexit plan just a load of slogans and a belief that Brexit will lead to a socialist utopia somehow, as evidenced by Brexit supporters on here.

    No we are not in a dystopian world at the moment we’re in a shitty Tory run world definitely but far from dystopian yet.

    We get all that good Dystopian shit once we hard Brexit and the chains come off the Tories, I love that people think we’re at rock bottom now it’s kinda sweet in a way.

    My favourites example is the Monkey Hangers in the town next to mine they voted massively to Brexit yet 67% are on benefits and the only growth industry is drug dealing. I can only a imagine the howls of indignation when there benefits get stopped because “sacrifices have to be made for Brexit”.

  15. Labour had 40% at the last election, now 26%. Lib Dems had 6% now 16%. Tories also lost votes but to Brexit Party. In the end Labour will have to disagree with any Tory Brexit anyway.

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