Labour deputy leader floundered when probed on consequences of remain push he advocates
Tom Watson faced a rare, probing interview when he talked to the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg today, following a speech to a pro-EU group in which he called for Labour to campaign to remain in the EU.
When Kuenssberg asked a couple of simple, direct questions about the consequences of such a change of policy – Labour is committed to honouring the referendum as long as a no-deal exit can be avoided – Watson floundered:
Asked about the electoral cost of such a switch, Watson could not come up with a positive argument and was forced to admit that it would probably cost Labour votes and parliamentary seats – for no better reason than ‘giv[ing] an honest account‘ of ‘why we’ve changed position‘.
But this is, of course, patent nonsense – Labour has not changed position, so an ‘honest account’ is not ‘we back remain’. That may be a Tom Watson policy, but it is not Labour policy.
Watson claimed that his imaginary change of policy is needed because ‘Brexit is harder than it looked’. But this says more about Watson than about Labour – he has a dire reputation among many of his parliamentary colleagues for starting things that go nowhere because of laziness.
Watson insisted that a new referendum is the only way to ‘break the deadlock’ in Parliament and claimed to Kuenssberg that a way to agree one might be found in Parliament – even though Parliament has already voted down a new referendum on numerous occasions and the current mix of MPs will not do differently. The only option Labour has for trying to force change is a vote of no confidence leading to a general election.
Yet, when Kuenssberg challenged him to explain why a new referendum would settle anything rather than causing more division, Watson was stumped and had to admit that it may well solve nothing.
And in the end, Watson even admitted that Labour’s position has not changed – exposing the whole premise of his speech and of the claims in the interview as just so much fantasy.
The reaction to the video when it was released on Twitter by the BBC was scathing. with the vast majority of the hundreds of responses attacking Watson’s performance, motives and relevance.
Tom Watson’s speech, supposedly some kind of signal moment, turned out to be nothing more than an exposure of his own vacuity and lack of respect for strategy, for agreed policy and for the wishes of more than half of those who voted in 2016.
The reaction of Labour members and supporters, who pushed the #SackTomWatson hashtag to trend at number two in the UK, made clear how badly he had miscalculated.
Yet again.
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You may wonder how this traitor manages to constantly undermine the Labour Leader,the members and the Labour party and goes unchallenged.? This is one of the mysterys of being a Labour member?Maybe someone in the NEC can explain to the Labour members how this traitor survives unchallenged by any loyal mp? ?
WHY don’t they just get rid of the c**t? He’s a walking embarrassment. Every time he opens his mouth he stabs the party in the back.
Before I disagree with you Jo, let me point out that I utterly loathe him and I want to see him go. But….he is just pointing forward a, not unreasonable, position held by, probably, the majority of the membership. I disagree with him as does Sqwarky and you but he is free in the labour party to speak his mind and to represent those who have his views. The REAL problem is the media coverage he gets. Thats the problem here. He gets more media coverage than the leader of the party, than the shadow chancellor. He gets more coverage than anyone in the party. Of course he knows he gets that, and that he will get that for the foreseeable future. So we should think of a way to quiet his voice, to bring it down to the same level as everyone else. I don’t know how to achieve that but he should be willing to help to achieve that. After all, he is supping with the devil.
Pimatters,you have to understand that he is part of an organized and concerted effort to destroy our party from within Tom Watson is not just passing opinions,and the media are organised by him.Its not about free speech ,we are talking about bankrolling by the puppeteer s to destroy any chance of a Labour government.If only life was as simple you think.This is Watson’s politics and it’s a dirty business.
Yeh. OK Jo. I get it. But we do need to be careful what we attack him on. Not the msg even though we disagree with it.
Ah, you don’t know?
I don’t know either.
Watson has been undermining the party, for about the last three years.
Still getting away with it?
Jack T in reply to your question “you don’t know” ?.I do know that Tom Watson has become a rallying point for the disaffected mps and Labour party members who are unhappy with the Labour leadership .and conference decisions regarding brexit.I am truly puzzled as to why not one loyal mp as moved to challenge Watson’s deputy leader position.?We must by now realise the damage caused by Watson on a daily basis.?We need to question our mps to give us a good reason for the lack of action against Watson’s treacherous deputy leadership..We need an answer to why they have done nothing,and why the NEC can do nothing but hide from challenging Watson’s treachery.? ?
What about, fear of further division, and at this time when many liberals in Labour believe the EU has something to do with socialism.
Joe, I can answer your two questions. Watson is part of the same group in the Labour Party who wield tremendous power in the PLP and at the core, let’s call them Zionists.
The second answer is connected with the first. Because the PLP is still constituted mainly in Blair’s image (Zionist) good MPs in the Party such as Chris Williamson don’t think they can obtain sufficient PLP backing to even make a challenge.
#sacktomwatson he’s an idiot.
watson’s not clever enough to be an idiot.
Be fair he is trying. Regards
Very trying!
Watson certainly ISN’T an idiot. He is devious, duplicitous, deceitful and calculating. In a word, a psychopath.
What an absoulte disgrace he is! Trending 2nd on Twitter #sacktomwatson its about time these so called self serving Labour MPs got a boot up the backside
#SackTomWatson we do not need the traitor, this country is on dire trouble bitterly split and divided it has been 100% caused by former PM David Cameron, carried on by outgoing PM Theresa May and the disaster looks to continue with whichever numpty is voted to lead the Tories and become yet another shoo-in Tory PM. We have all this going on and Watson attacks his own party?
You can’t sack a democratically elected deputy leader. I’m sure there must be a way? Why can’t we the members sack him or have a vote of no confidence?
as I understand it the only way to get rid of him is for another Labour MP to trigger a deputy leadership contest he cannot be ditched or sacked
Twatson! Take a tip from the Maybot – don’t hang around trying to justify yourself. We’ve heard it all before, and it’s boring.
Just GO! And go TODAY – you have 38 minutes left to do what you know you MUST do. Why delay? Why waste our time?
Once again – GO!!!
Would a left-leaning MP be able to get enough nominations to challenge Watson? If they could, they’d surely win the challenge.
I’m one of those who voted for Watson as the best of a bad bunch and I now wish I hadn’t.
The nominations threshold for challenging an incumbent deputy leader (or leader) is set quite high at 20%. Also whether you like it or not (i don’t) Tom Watson is still very popular with a large section of the membership
Rebecca Long Bailey woud get my vote to be deputy leader, someone should ask her.
Just came across this excellent assessment of the Iran/oil tankers episode:
https://thefreethoughtproject.com/iran-oman-tanker-attacks/
If there are any sensible advisers remaining in Trump’s little clique of yes-men they should seek to persuade him that the “accidental war” theory is a personal criticism of himself – implying that he’d strut, bluster and threaten Iran until he finally had to choose between another costly war and looking weak by ‘backing down’.
Which is effectively the case anyway.
Tuesday, June 18, 2019
‘If This Is True, They Are Even Bigger Lunatics Than We Realized’: UN Officials Reportedly Believe Trump Planning ‘Massive’ Bombing Campaign in Iran
“There would be no going back from this. There’s no such thing as a ‘one and done’ military strike on Iran.”
byJake Johnson, staff writer
As the Trump administration prepares to deploy 1,000 additional troops to the Middle East in a move critics warned will heighten the possibility of all-out war with Iran, United Nations officials reportedly believe the U.S. is also planning a major “aerial bombardment” of an Iranian nuclear facility.
United Nations officials are “assessing the United States’ plans to carry out a tactical assault on Iran,” the Jerusalem Post reported Monday, citing anonymous diplomatic sources at the U.N. headquarters in New York.”
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/06/18/if-true-they-are-even-bigger-lunatics-we-realized-un-officials-reportedly-believe
“I am not leaving Labour. Labour is leaving me.” says Watson
At last the penny seems to be beginning to drop.
It began to leave people like you three years ago Tom. The majority of the membership will not be bullied by the right of the Party any longer.
But there again you know that as well as anyone. Your purpose is simply to inflict maximum damage on your way out.
“Parliament has already voted down a new referendum on numerous occasions” This is, the important bit, Labour switching to full on remain won’t change that fact.
THE THREE WHOPPERS ACCUSE PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH THEM AS BEING ‘SAT ON THE FENCE’…
IT’S TIME TO GET OFF THE FRIGGIN FENCE THEN, INNIT?
WHO DO YOU AGREE WITH?
WATSON – ”WAAAAAGGGGHHHH!! 2ND REFERENDUM, IT’S MY JOB TO STOP THE TOERAGS IMPLODING”?
OR
CHRIS WILLIAMSON
”It’s not another EU referendum that we need, it’s a clear and unambiguous commitment to redistribution of income and wealth.
There are 14m living in poverty in the UK, the world’s 5th biggest economy, and working class communities haven’t seen the ‘benefits’ of EU membership.”
JUST TYPE WATSON OR WILLIAMSON AND LETS SEE WHO’S WHO…I’M WITH WILLIAMSON.
The Toffee (597) 18/06/2019 at 9:03 am
I agree with the majority of the Labour Party’s members and voters.
SteveH,stop making your ridiculous claims to be speaking for “the majority of the Labour party’s members and voters”.You speak only for yourself,and I for one am heartily sick of hearing you.Your obsession with Brexit suggests one of two things,either you are ignoring the evidence about Remain being possibly toxic to Labour’s election chances because you aren’t very bright,or because you know what the dangers are and think that is a welcome outcome.
john thatcher 18/06/2019 at 11:09 am
I am not claiming to speak for anyone, I am simply stating that I agree with the majority. Do you have any credible evidence to the contrary.
It’s pathetic that you had to attempt to change the context/meaning of my comment by cutting the first 3 words of a 12 word comment.
It doesn’t say much for the veracity of your contribution.
FOR the cunteenth time…
PROVE the majority of labour voters want a 2nd ref?
You make the claim. It’s on you to prove it.
The Toffee (597) 18/06/2019 at 1:21 pm
All the polls (even the Leave Means leave one) and academic studies have consistently shown similar results. That’s my evidence, what’s yours.
Here’s yet another result that indicates that the majority of Labour’s supporters want a CV and to stay in the EU
This weeks LabourList Survey.
Anti-Brexit groups hope to debate and pass a motion that would see Labour support a public vote on any Brexit deal and back Remain in that vote.
Would you be happy if the motion were passed?
Yes – 67.88% (3,181)
No – 24.01% (1,125)
Don’t know – 8.11% (380)
And that’s members AND voters (Including ‘floaters’) is it?
I very much doubt it. In fact, I’ll go as far as to say it’s a straw poll of people what go on labour list; and therefore unrepresentative of the demographic as a whole.
Only an actual take of everyone’s individual opinion will prove it either way.
Therefore, unless that’s undertaken, you’re spouting nothing but opinion and expecting us to accept it as fact.
The Toffee (597) at 3:58 pm
I’m not stating anything apart from the fact that the polls have been consistent in indicating that the majority of Labour supporters want a CV and to remain in the EU. It’s more than a little disingenuous of you to be critical of evidence when you are unable to present any evidence yourself.
My evidence is consistent, yours simply doesn’t exist. No amount of you pissing into the wind is going to alter that.
According to Bazza 69% of his CLP have just voted to put the above motion to conference. Please note, actual members voting on this precise issue. Yet again the results are consistent with the above survey.
I’m not stating anything apart from the fact that the polls have been consistent in indicating that the majority of Labour supporters want a CV and to remain in the EU. It’s more than a little disingenuous of you to be critical of evidence when you are unable to present any evidence yourself.
Labour ‘supporters’… Define please?
Because if you’re talking members exclusively then maybe you have a point. Except I specifically included voters & floating or potential labour voters – meaning the entire elctorate at large – and you originally went along with that in your replying post at 10:09am.
By the way, define a confirmatory vote (CV). As I understand it that’s a vote on any deal negotiated.
It is NOT a second in/out referendum. Oh, and I don’t make any claim that a majority want a 2nd ref – you do, so prove it. You still haven’t yet repeatedly claim it’s the case.
The Toffee (597) at 5:46 pm I
I’ve made my views very clear and if you are too dumb to see that then that is your problem not mine.
The Toffee (597) at 5:46 pm I
”I’ve made my views very clear”
That’s right tess, and you’re still stating your views as fact without them being tested.
Unless I’m mistaken just about every ‘poll’ had remain well ahead before and even on the day of the referendum, didn’t it?
Same with the toerags in 2017…
s I said, the only wy you will prove it beyond doubt is to actually hold a 2nd ref…And that’s NOT policy.
So, watson out or 2nd ref – which is it? You’re not having both.
The Toffee (597) 18/06/2019 at 5:59 pm · ·
“you’re still stating your views as fact without them being tested.”
No I’m not, you are welcome to try and prove otherwise. I suggest you re-read my comments.
“So, watson out or 2nd ref – which is it? You’re not having both.”
First of all you are not in a position to dictate what I can and can’t have as a member of the Labour Party but given the arbitrary parameters that you’ve set – I’d opt for a CV every time. Watson can wait stopping Brexit can’t.
It’s simple. Cut through the crap and just have another vote. No problem – except for the Kevins who hate the idea of it being proved that their convictions are shite on stilts.
So eloquent Richard, as per usual. But pray, do tell how this vote is going to come about, ALL things considered?
Allan Howard at 9:02 pm
Ask Toffee, he’s the one advocating a 2nd referendum
We all know what Toffee was saying Steve, so why don’t YOU – or Richard or Jack – just answer the simple question I posed? Given that between you, you have posted literally thousands of comments during the past year or so arguing for a second referendum (or a PV or whatever), surely you must have an idea as to how it would come about. I mean I REALLY would be interested to know, as I can’t see how it’s gonna happen myself. And I don’t understand why you would argue for a second referendum – and on a daily basis – unless you could see how it COULD.
Allan Howard 18/06/2019 at 10:44 pm
I would have thought that was obvious to everyone, parliament would have to vote for it
Er, yeah, of course Steve. Only problem IS, they’re not going to, as we all know. And for obvious reasons.
But how likely do YOU think it is?
Allan Howard 18/06/2019 at 11:25 pm
Perhaps you should explain why you think they are never going to do it first
I guess the following, in March, slipped your mind Steve:
MPs have decisively rejected an attempt to secure a second referendum on Brexit.
The House of Commons voted by 334 to 85 – a margin of 249 – against an amendment tabled by members of The Independent Group (TIG) of former Labour and Tory MPs, who quit their parties in part because of differences over EU withdrawal.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/mps-decisively-reject-second-brexit-173119172.html
Allan Howard 18/06/2019 at 11:46 pm · ·
“I guess the following, in March, slipped your mind Steve”
Not at all, it also didn’t slip my mind that Labour whipped to abstain on this vote.
Earth to Toffee, Earth to Toffee… NEWSFLASH… Stop the presses…
Toffee says:
“Only an actual take of everyone’s individual opinion will prove it either way.
Therefore, unless that’s undertaken, you’re spouting nothing but opinion and expecting us to accept it as fact.”
TOFFEE DEMANDS PV… TOFFEE DEMANDS PV… TOFFEE DEMANDS PV… TOFFEE BETRAYS BREXIT.
Felicity your worrys over further division inside Labour are understandable..If I was suffering from a cancer I would take action to remove it.To not do anything would lead to a protracted and possible slow death.We have tried to get treatment for Tom Watson ,but he has ignored it.This type of treachery is incurable and will need to be removed!
There seems to be a perplexing skepticism about chemotherapy in the Labour party!
Trouble is – Lexiteers tend to advocate strange fake herbal remedies and snake oi, unsupported by any scientific research, that will kill the sufferer a bit quicker.
Scenario if Labour becomes a party of ‘Remain’ we would join the Lib.Dems.; the Green Party; the SNP; Plaid Cymru; & Change UK, as the Tories would unite with the Brexit Party. Remain votes split & Leave votes concentrated, a scenario for electoral disaster. The Labour Party needs to keep Brexiteers on board, if you don’t believe me…………watch this space & go follow the advice of Starmer, Blair & Watson.
I would agree. Also, Tom is not taking into account the 158 Labour MP’s in leave voting constituencies that would be fertile hunting grounds for the Brexit Party. Maybe, just maybe, Tom realises this will happen and he wants to inflict maximum amount of damage to the party before leaving as he knows his time is up! The membership have become tired of his shenanigans with his cohort of believers that Tom is always right.
As we have found out recently, he is not a man of detail. In fact he has had to apologise so many times for things he’s said in Parliament that he can’t be trusted. It is time to move on and the remain ultras just can’t bring themselves to admit they lost and that democracy has to win.
steve richards, do you mind if I run with your analysis for a minute?
On that single issue with only a binary choice – in or out –
Choose Brexit and share a platform with Tories, Nouveau-Kippers and the DUP – all pretty far to the right as I recall.
Choose remain and share a platform with Libs, Chuckys, Plackys, Snaps and Greenses – most of which aren’t that right wing, are they?
Assume we then win a GE – Corbyn is PM and Labour, given a half-decent majority, initiates a whole raft of radically redistributive, green, employment-heavy industrial and infrastructure measures spread across the areas hardest hit by Tory misrule – Scotland, the North East, the North West, Wales, the Midlands, the South West and Northern Ireland.
The South East can afford negative investment for a while – let it take out a second fucking mortgage.
I believe such measures would take a lot of the heat out of the regional nationalist movements.
Scotland and Wales Labour heartlands again – that’d be something, wouldn’t it?
For everyone but the Tories and the super rich.
If, on the other hand, we lost Scotland and Wales – Labour might not see power again for a generation or more – until ALL the jobs are gone and the Tories have moved Parliament to Bermuda.
No. Don’t share a platform with any other Party. Broad Church & Inclusive? Not Remain, not Brexit; reflecting the membership. The Brexit Referendum was divisive; another Referendum would create civil war; perhaps even destroy the Labour Party. Jeremy is right; Blair, Watson & Starmer are wrong. If you lose the support of the Northern Working Class Labour voter, what’s the point?……….better go join the Lib.Dems, the natural home of Remainers? The choice does not have to be simplistic & binary
Steve, I’m afraid your scenario is fanciful. The Tories will NEVER join the Brexit Party, why do you think we are in this mess at the moment? They will split the Leave vote.
If Labour go seriously for Remain, supporters of the other Remain parties will support us as the ONLY serious way of staying in the EU.
All this focus on Watson – who is actually a creation of muddled going-nowhere policy.
The majority of Party members favour Remain; ditto the majority of supporters; the potential ratio of voter losses to other parties is 4 times greater by sticking to a woolly Leave policy. What’s not to like by changing tack, catching the wind, cutting the legs off Watson,ditching a right-wing policy and standing more than a prayer of winning a GE with credibility intact – except amongst addled Brexit voters?
… and, being in Scotland at the moment is a reminder that Labour here has become an irrelevancy in a country that once provided important parliamentary numbers. The policy has really paid dividends in getting back that support!
The ever unreliable Paul Mason has been at it again!
Paul Mason in his Guardian column said:
“Meanwhile, because remain votes pile up in big cities, even if it claws many remainers back, that’s not enough to compensate in the crucial marginal seats.
I have to admit this risk is real. But let’s consider the alternatives.”
Yes, let’s consider the future of 158 Labour MP’s in leave voting areas. How many are you willing to sacrifice to get your grubby People’s Vote?
Those leave communities have suffered so much in the past forty years do you not think they’ve already factored in the Brexit consequences? After all they’ve been through yet still this political elite ignores them once again. And once again the elite makes the same mistakes as they did in Scotland, ignoring their core voters and lost 80% of the Labour seats to the SNP’s delight! You really can’t make this up can you?
The elite didn’t have any problems voting for war in Afghanistan or Iraq. Send our brave servicemen/women to be killed or maimed? Not a problem, just let me Vote! Actually getting Brexit through Parliament? “Well, old boy, there’s lots to think about, got take our time with this you know. Might never happen if we keep stopping and starting the process.”
Utterly devoid of any integrity! Are Remain elite just a bunch of
charlatans?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/18/labour-brexit-remain
“Are Remain elite just a bunch of charlatans?”
No – not an ‘elite’ (fakery litmus word) – just representative of the majority views of Labour, and not a little minority sect in the corner pretending to wisdom and representativeness that they don’t possess in exploiting self-indulgent playtime politics.
Watson, your remarks are nothing but an attack on our leader and his commitment to bring this Country together!
Only by sticking to JCs commitment can we Labour Members be assured whether or not we voted remain or leave, of a Brexit we can all live with!
“Stop”, interfering Watson, along with your right leaning colleagues!
You will all suffer the consequences and backlash of us the membership “GUARANTEED”!
I for one have had enough of your bleating about what you want!
It’s about those who voted and won not your twisted idea of “DEMOCRACY”!
I voted remain I “lost”!
Just like when I voted for you “I LOST”!
“NEVER AGAIN”!
“I “lost”!”
You mean you self identify as ‘A Loser’
Sad – but keep it to yourself while the rest of us get on with rescuing things from the capitulators to Farage and sundry snake oil salesmen.
”Sad – but keep it to yourself while the rest of us get on with rescuing things from the capitulators to Farage and sundry snake oil salesmen.”
Fucking hell – It’s happened. I knew it would. How does the rest of it go again, Winston?
Something about ‘bite them on the features’ , isn’t it?
And you have the temerity to call others ‘sad’. Jesus wept.
I would love to know where all these people get the numbers from when they say “most members” want this that or the other! I’m in an FB group of Labour Members of a few thousand! Not a single one of us is ever asked to be part of a poll, not a single one of us is ever asked anything tbh! So why are people lying about what the members want?? Every day it’s something else that most members want? Also where do these people get our names from to ask us these things?? Full of the proverbial the lot of them!!!
There is a lot of evidence from different sampled polls. I haven’t been quizzed, either – and the odds are against it. That’s sampling – which has a known error component – unlike speculation that just has built in error.
For what it’s worth, the *actual* poll during the local elections confirmed the significant drift of members to ‘Remain’ parties and the consequent lower than expected Labour vote. Actually entirely consistent with the sampled information – as well as *my* subjective experience of Labour supporters turning away from the Party because of the Brexit stance.
* * BREAKING NEWS * *
Jeremy Corbyn confirmed at the special Brexit meeting of the shadow cabinet today that Labour is now committed to a public vote on any Brexit deal – but not to supporting Remain.
Although there was widespread speculation that Labour would be shifting its position on Brexit, the Labour leader made clear at the gathering of opposition frontbenchers this afternoon that the party is still “committed to respecting the result of the referendum”.