Labour continues to lead Tories in polling – but votes lost during new-referendum excursion show whole idea must be jettisoned
Comment
YouGov’s polling is considered by many to understate Labour’s support – so when even that pollster’s data started to show a solid Labour lead over the Tories, the Establishment panicked.
However, while YouGov’s latest poll of Westminster voting intention still shows Labour three points ahead, it’s not all good news for the party – and in fact contains a stark message for those who will see it.
According to YouGov, Labour stand at thirty percent, with the Tories trailing on twenty-seven, down two points compared to last week:
Labour’s share is unchanged from the previous week.
However, it is not unchanged this year – and while in earlier polls Labour trailed the Tories, they did so on a higher vote share than now. In early February, Labour stood three points higher in YouGov’s workings:
The key point in this period was not the emergence of the TIG/Change Party – which has drawn more support from the Tories than from Labour. Instead, Labour insiders – and activists in the party’s northern heartlands – believe that the crucial factor has been Labour’s decision, in line with its conference policy, to back parliamentary motions for a new referendum, combined with the public noise made by a core pro-referendum Labour MPs.
The motions were – as they were always going to be – unsuccessful in spite of Labour’s backing. But during a period of around eighty days, the polling suggests that those efforts and noise have cost Labour around two million votes.
This data meshes seamlessly with the experience of northern campaigners ‘out on the doorstep’ for next week’s local elections. Numerous members and organisers have told the SKWAWKBOX that the issue of ‘Brexit betrayal’ is increasingly a theme. One such campaigner told the SKWAWKBOX:
We’ve been warning people for ages. Labour must not be seen to be ‘trying to stop Brexit’. People up here are loyal, but if they think Labour are ignoring their vote it won’t quickly be forgiven.
We need to be absolutely unequivocal in our position on Europe. We are leaving. The only question most people care about is will Labour lead us out.
One Twitter commenter put the issue perfectly today:
Labour, rejecting even the notion of a new referendum as anything but a last resort, will win back those votes and more. Labour pushing a new vote will strengthen the right – which in turn will keep the Tories in government regardless of their differences when push comes to shove, just as the DUP has done in spite of its anger with Theresa May and as the Tinge-group has said it will do, out of self-preservation.
Labour has honoured its conference policy and rightly so – but the party has shown more than enough support for any kind of new vote to know first that it won’t get through Parliament and second that even the attempt is damaging the party.
Labour MPs and others pushing for it either don’t understand that, or don’t care – and a few no doubt even hope for it.
But it’s time for Labour to put it in the box marked ‘done’ and throw it out – publicly and noisily. The job of getting into Downing Street is just too important – the lives of thousands and the quality of life of millions depends on Labour succeeding and failure will condemn them to Tory predations whether we’re in or out of the EU.
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It looks like we are going have to trust that Jeremy Corbyn will continue to be a man of his word.
“policy will be made by Labour members, not the leader”
Today JC was quoted by the BBC
Asked if the promise of a public confirmatory vote would be in election material, he added: “It’s important that the party, which is a democratic party structure, makes those decisions. Sadly, or perhaps it’s a good thing, I’m not a dictator of the Labour Party.”
This will be a test of how well the party’s members are represented by the Labour Party’s democratic structures.
Members foolishly insisted at Conference that the party support a second referendum as an option. I knew it was a bad idea at the time, anyone with a brain did.
The party respected the members’ views and supported an amendment for a second referendum in the House of Commons. It has been repeatedly rejected.
This polling shows Labour will lose millions of votes and the next election if it continues to support that policy, a policy which does not respect the referendum result.
This is all common sense, of course Labour will lose millions of votes if it defies the wishes of 17,400,000 voters just to please a few hundred thousand pro-EU zealots in the party. Of course it will lose the next election.
It makes no logical sense to persist with this foolish desire to ignore the electorate. The electorate must be respected and the views of members obsessed with remaining in the EU must be ignored. If they are not ignored the Tories will remain in power and people’s lives and communities will continue to be damaged by austerity.
The leadership has a duty to return a Labour government. It therefore has a duty to tell the members and the country that Labour no longer supports a second referendum option and that it will will be taken off the table. This announcement must be made public immediately.
If Keir Starmer, who is an EU fanatic, doesn’t like it he will have to resign. He won’t of course because he is a social democrat careerist. He would be a nobody in politics without the Labour Party. It is time for him to stop playing to the membership gallery and damaging the Labour vote. It is time for him to set aside his personal ambitions and to respect the largest mandate in British history before he and his fellow remain zealots lose Labour the next election and hand victory to the Tories.
Internal Affairs 27/04/2019 at 8:09 pm
So what you are really saying is that Labour members were too thick and ill-informed to make a decision and therefor your deeply patronising view is that your minority position should overrule the wishes of the vast majority of the membership to save us from ourselves.
Are you sure you really belong in a democratic party?
I am saying that your position is irrational, Steve. You want something that will lose Labour the next election and hand power to the Tories.
And it is rather rich for you to make the points you have. After all, it is remainers like you who have been calling leave voters ignorant racists for the last three years. By doing so you have hardened the leave vote.
I voted remain but am a democrat and respect the result, so your comment is doubly foolish.
You have run out of road if that is all you have left to contribute. You have clearly lost the debate.
I.A. How do you know 17,400,000 voters still want Brexit?
You aiming at the Booker, Skwawkbox.
I’ve rarely seen such an imaginative piece of fiction based on … errr … wishing for fairies at the bottom of the imaginary garden.
Two million votes lost on a policy that hasn’t even been implemented? More than the three year old margin in the laughable referendum – but only a third of those who actually asked for the withdrawal of Article 50.
Dream on! But don’t confuse analysis with Murdoch/ MSM-type fiction – especially when the smoothed trend of the Labour vote is actually slightly up after a long decline!
Oh dear, oh dear! Pull the other one.
P.S. A more sustainable hypothesis, BTW, is that the ‘Change’ vote has noticeably declined as the hope of Labour going for a referendum has increased. Pushing the analysis a bit – but more sustainable than pure fantasy about 2m votes going walkabout on the basis of SFA evidence (and a sudden religious conversion to the validity of a single YouGov poll, interpreted with chicken entrails!)
You’re a propagandist and a liar RH. I don’t give a toss what members want or say, too many of them have far too much time on their hands and want to create a microcosm of their own little comfortable, liberal universe that is distinctly similar to that envisioned by American democrats.
I and many like me will vote Labour in the up coming local elections and for the Brexit party in the European elections. As a lifelong labour voted and Socialist, Labour cannot continue to rely on my vote regardless as long as people like yourself have any power within the party. You are a liberal, not a Socialist and you wriggle, dispute and twist on this blog with your over wordy comment that does nothing for debate, just spews out words from the dictionary.
Linda, you are obviously not a member of the Party otherwise you’d be expelled. It’s quite obvious now you’re a UKIPER.
Lundiel, it is quite worrying that you can even contemplate voting for a clearly right wing grouping lead by Farage. Just shows how close some so called lefties are to neo-fascists. But then that is your choice. However, many others of us also are entitled to make out choices. However we would never vote for any grouping that is so contrary to labour values.
Labour values don’t include putting mainly centrist self serving careerists up for election to a toothless body (European Parliament), so they can ride the gravy train and the EU can point to itself and claim to be a democracy.
This is important enough, given current circumstances and the concerted effort by centrists to derail Brexit, that voting in a load of wreckers is permissible in my mind, and I’ve no doubt many will follow suit.
I resigned from the party when it was pressed into including a second referendum.
“You’re a propagandist and a liar RH”
Glad you’re indirectly confirming with your incoherent spluttering that I’m right.
Now you’ve let off steam, can you detail where I’m ‘lying’? Or a ‘propagandist’?
I assume you’re developing a new lexicon to go with chucking rattles out of the pram every time reality collides with your fantasies.
I’ve totally had it with you RH. You ignore anything anyone says while purposely putting their backs up with your condescending sneering comment that is also extremely verbose, I can almost feel you looking down your nose. You speak to me as if I’m some kind of deranged idiot and you and your fellow travellers ARE the voice of the party, the voters and the country. I have come across no one as extreme as ANY of you in real life. This comment:
We’ve been warning people for ages. Labour must not be seen to be ‘trying to stop Brexit’. People up here are loyal, but if they think Labour are ignoring their vote it won’t quickly be forgiven.
We need to be absolutely unequivocal in our position on Europe. We are leaving. The only question most people care about is will Labour lead us out.
Reelects the opinion of leavers I talk to and remainers are generally sick to death of indecision. The second referendum is viewed for what it is, either an attempt to turn back democracy, an attempt to unseat Corbyn or an act of breathtaking arrogance by middle class liberals..
lundiel 28/04/2019 at 2:29 pm
The simple fact is that your views are only shared by a small minority of the party. Whatever you write won’t alter the fact that most Labour members and voters support a second referendum and staying in the EU.
The simple fact is that your views are only shared by a small minority of the party.
But a majority of the electorate.
The Toffee (597) 28/04/2019 at 4:01 pm · ·
“But a majority of the electorate.”
It’s 3 years since the vote, lots of people have died, lots of people have registered to vote for the first time plus we all have a much better idea (for better or worse) about what Brexit actually looks like.
None of us really can say what the electorate feel about Brexit now so lets have another vote and check whether people have changed their minds (either way) and how the new voters feel about it. Lets have a vote so we know definitively what today’s electorate think. What’s not to like, what is there to be afraid of.
I think a brief look in the mirror might not come amiss, lundiel. Your incontinent rage and ad hominem paranoia is a little weird (not to say more than a bit hypocritical) – as soon as you are faced with disagreement backed by contrary evidence/analysis.
I’m sorry that you get so upset, but chucking rattles isn’t an answer.
It’s 3 years since the vote, lots of people have died, lots of people have registered to vote for the first time plus we all have a much better idea (for better or worse) about what Brexit actually looks like.
So. Fucking. WHAT?
The same could be said about the general election. We have a much better idea of a minority toerag government. You ought to try calling for a general election with a much vigour as you do a second referendum.
People are thouroughly pissed off with the whole shebang; and rightfully so. They want things done & dusted and it’s whining gobshites like you, disrupting and dragging out the process with your incessant whingeing who are alienating the electorate even further.
Small wonder some people are becomiing incereasingly violent.
“incoherent spluttering”, “Your incontinent rage and ad hominem paranoia is a little weird”…… Is your response. You are a nasty, self opinionated bully who has never sought to defend EU foreign policy on Libya, Syria, Ukraine or Venezuela. Nor have you ever made any comment on EU Laissez-faire economics and the effect it has on southern/eastern European countries, let alone the UK and mainland Europe. Therefore, you are either ignorant (which you aren’t) or purposely trolling for remain, which you are. You are a nasty rude pig.
Looking at your comments overall, if pushed, I would define you as high probability a Sunni activist who thinks Labour is the best choice available, because of your strong Palestinian views and rightwing, pro business ideology. Or you are just an angry middle class liberal with something to lose.
lundiel – Your last posts really show a major anger management problem – and really wild imaginings.
Where does that come from? It’s not good for the health.
I hope it’s simply the frustration of the Lexiteer at being obviously and constantly on the wrong end of an argument. But – whatever – you do need to get a bit of a grip.
It is no good you coming here making unfounded claim after unfounded claim. One minute you say polls are irrefutable but when they don’t suit your narrative you dismiss them. You hold a position and try to fit evidence that supports it, ignoring better evidence which does not.
You are both an anti-democratic and an anti-intellectual.
This poll shows the promotion of a second referendum by people like Keir Starmer and you has damaged the Labour vote. For you to argue that is not so because the party has not implemented the policy merely demonstrates the weakness of your argument and desperation of your position.
Please stop damaging the Labour vote. You are currently campaigning for the Conservatives and for the Brexit Party.
It is common sense that if Labour places the opinions of a few hundred members above the votes of 17,400,000 voters we will lose the next election. The electorate must be respected for Labour to win power.
I.A. If anyone is making unfounded claims it’s you!
nternal Affairs 27/04/2019 at 8:38 pm · · Reply →
Anyone in the least bit familiar with your numerous comments on here will be left wondering whether you are taking the piss, attempting to distract from the lack of paucity in your own argument by projecting your own short comings onto others or simply displaying your ignorance and contempt for democracy
SteveH
You’re the last person who should be pointing the finger at others for making “numerous comments on here”.
I doubt there’s been a single post that you (and RH) haven’t honoured with your opinion since you joined!
timfrom 28/04/2019 at 11:07 am
I have no absolutely problem whatsoever with the number of comments he posts, why would I?
Ooops – no absolutely >>> absolutely no
The last thing Labour wants to do is lead the UK out of the EU. That would mean them being blamed long term for the economic and social consequences. Brexit is a tory scheme and that misbegotten party needs to be fixed with the blame.
It would also probably mean a final nail in the coffin of Labour in Scotland.
There is no good way out of this and there may well be Labour voters in the East Midlands who will feel betrayed, largely because of what the right wing press has been hammering relentlessly at them. But millions of young people will feel equally betrayed if Brexit goes ahead.
It always amazes me when Skwawky can look at the same data as others and then come to the wrong conclusion.
I canvass in the North, although not in the North East where UKIP, with their lies prior to the referendum, corrupted the voters and my observations are the reverse. Among Labour voters, the main two adverse responses I get, bearing in mind that I am 100% a Corbyn supporter, are Jeremy is not decisive enough and we should definitely put any deal back to the public.
The conclusion, which incidentally agrees with polls, is that if Labour does not agree to put the final decision back to the people, it will cost us the next GE.
A quote from the Brexit Composite Motion unanimously passed at conference.
“. If the Government is confident in negotiating a deal that working people, our economy and communities will benefit from they should not be afraid to put that deal to the public.
“The conclusion, which incidentally agrees with polls, is that if Labour does not agree to put the final decision back to the people, it will cost us the next GE.”
They have. Three times. It got beaten in Parliament every time. It isn’t going to happen.
What now?
Parliament is not exactly public.
“What now?”
Simple. Bite the bullet and create a *credible* referendum. It’s known as ‘democracy’.
That is the exact statement given by many voters I encountered whilst out doorknocking for next week’s local elections. People not happy with labour’s one step forward one step backwards motion nor wirh what they per eve as sitting on the fence.
Of those who are dithering over which of the two main Parties to support the dilema they mention is ‘you are both the same’. Which is understandable when we haven’t distanced ourselves far enough away from the Tories view over Brexit.
The mantra we keep hearing from the Lexiter fanatics is ‘we have to honour the referendum result’. No we don’t, it was three years ago and the world and our demographics have changed since then. The referendum result is now stale and it needs refreshing.
Libdems do not need to respect the vote,the people rejected them but labour do its part of what they call labour values
That sounds like Blairite triangulation. Here’s my principles, I’ve got others if you don’t like them.
“respect the vote”
… which actually means recognising that only a minority supported Brexit. Simple.
So if you won by a few percent, you’d stand there and say let’s re-run this because my margin wasn’t big enough?
Or if the board voted on your promotion, and it go through on one vote, you’d refuse the promotion?
I agree.
Supporting the remain position will ruin Labour and what Madelson,Blair and Cable planned from the start ,
I also feel they should not be supporting the leave position but going in on labour values of Democratic socialism and respect for the Democratic choice of the people of the UK .
I have noticed most of the MPs supporting a remain position are anti Corbyn or chasing the crowd as they say,many are self centered .
If they succeed they will have pulled off a blinder and the political heist of the century.
We should go with what the majority of the Labour Party’s members and voters want. If the Labour Party doesn’t represent the opinions of its members and supporters what is the point of its existence?
Honoring the referendum result is undoubtedly forcing some to accept a decision which they no longer support, is that what you mean by ‘Labour values’.
The only democratic option is to give people an opportunity to re-affirm their choice and give the young and those who were so confused last time that they decided not to vote, another chance. That’s what I call Labour values.
By the way, forget the MPs, we a are a member’s Party, or so we’re told.
Your suggestion would break the terms of the original vote . We were offered a contract by voting we accepted the terms in good faith .Now the Government must honour it . It appears to me Labour has the solutions to the impasse.
Jeez! One really shouldn’t have to repeat the blindingly obvious. :
There was nothing sacred about that Tory referendum – any more than a general election result holds good in perpetuity (otherwise we’d have everlasting Tory governments). It didn’t have any of the characteristics of a binding constitutional vote, and the result was a minority vote for Brexit.
Then of course, we know that a large percentage of voters hadn’t a clue about the issues, that the electorate was artificially constrained with many excluded, that there was illegality, and that the result was obtained by the total bias and downright falsehoods in the MSM propaganda press, preying on the most gullible.
Besides which, time has moved on and knowledge is better, if not perfect
So – essentially – the desperate attempts to avoid a confirmatory vote clearly stem from a fear of a proper process.
Next.
“Supporting the remain position will ruin Labour”
That’s not what intelligent analysis indicates.
Snidey way of saying that’s thick analysis.
There is a message in there somewhere if your superior intelligence allows you to comprehend .
Just in case it escapes you Remain will damage labour,both the campaign to remain and voting for it.
Better tell your pals to dump the Greens and libdems and vote labour or the Brexit party will be the dominant party and no one wants that do they?
”In the latest devastating blow for Theresa May, the former Ukip chief’s outfit is set to rake in 28% of the vote next month, the same figure as Jeremy Corbyn’s party, and double that of the Tories, on 14%.
The latest Opinium poll shows that support for the Conservatives has fallen by 3%, while the Brexit Party’s has gone up by 16% since the study was last conducted on the day of its launch two weeks ago
“Snidey way of saying that’s thick analysis”
If the cap fits …
But, no, that’s not what I was saying. It’s simply crap fiction, not analysis. Contrary to the old saw, statistics can’t be made to say anything you like if they’re analysed properly. It’s distortions like this that give rise to the myth. I simply cited sustainable conclusions rather than wish fulfilment.
“There is a message in there somewhere if your superior intelligence allows you to comprehend”
Something I don’t claim. Tho’ it’s a low bar. 🙂
What I do claim is that there is no evidence for the suggestion that backing Remain will damage Labour overall – such detailed analysis that there is suggests the opposite.
The other point I’ve made is that there has been some growth in Labour support and *decline* in ‘Change’ support during the time that another referendum has come to the fore – rather than the reverse. I’m looking at the trend of polling, which is the only way to partly get rid of the noise in the data. It’s all basic stuff, not rocket science.
Kipper’s ain’t going to flock to Labour.
” tell your pals to dump the Greens and libdems and vote labour or the Brexit party will be the dominant party and no one wants that do they?”
Those currently wavering will back Labour in large numbers *if* it clearly opposes the Tory narrative. Currently – as seen by the longer term tend in the polls – Labour is being strangled by what is seen as unconstructive ambiguity which gets in the way of other issues. That’s the f.ing point.
Why don’t *you* tell your Kipper/ERG allies to vote Labour – that might have some conviction behind it.
Farage’s brexit party is now polling highest for the EU vote due next month.
I’d also speculate that it’s the brexit party that’s vacuuming up miffed voters from both main parties.
On a side note, isn’t it strange that David Cameron isn’t harassed or hassled in any way for starting this and then fleeing immediately afterwards?🤔
NVLA 27/04/2019 at 7:13 pm
Membership can do what it pleases.
As a workmate who races often says, “When the flag drops, the baloney stops”
It’s all speculation until then. But I know where my money is going. The alliance with Farage is temporary (for me). I want out of the EU (for many, many reasons. Sanctions on Iran, free movement, inequality to name just a few). Labour seems to want to keep focusing on the 40% who are well off…
As for Blairite, who has been saying we need to stay? He also said you should vote conservative, not vote Farage. You wouldn’t catch me saying vote Tory.
NVLA 27/04/2019 at 9:28 pm ·
Instead you choose to throw your lot in with a party that attracts the majority of its support from Tories who think the Tory Party is not RW enough for them. You appear to be rather muddled in your thinking.
No. Just determined to get out the EU. As much as it annoys you, the people voted to leave. Remainer extremists are the ones who are enabling their rise, not me.
Do you honestly think I’m going to give in?
As I said above
Your thinking appears to be muddled
ps NVLA
Regardless of whether we eventually end up in or out of the EU do you think it’s important that the next President of the EU is Left Wing and do you have a view on whether Farage’s gang will vote for the LW or RW candidate.
There will never be a true left wing president of the EU. Look at the flak Corbyn got/gets. The EU is not our friend. It’s the personified definition of Mussolini’s fascism, and we’re all powerless to stop it. The only solution is to leave, and watch it collapse. Then start with something which put its citizens, not business, first.
I don’t give a fig what Farage or his mates vote for, I just want out.
Would be quite funny if they fill the EU parliament with unsavoury types. After all, EU stubbornness (have you read the EU withdrawal agreement? I’d struggle to sign that with a gun pressed into me) has helped get us where we are today.
You reap what you sow. (And I’m willing to take whatever comes for that very reason, except denial of acknowledgement)
Better to suggest the libdem Green and other minor defunct parties support labour to stop the Brexit party
In canvassing several former council house areas in a parliamentary Conservative areas of the South of England for the local elections, I have been truly shocked by the extent of the rejection of Labour. The extent of rejection amongst our potential supporters is a complete turnaround for me. – an overwhelming refusal to vote at all. This is an (almost) on – mass rejection of Labour based upon the false belief that we do not accept the result of the referendum.
Of course this is only one instance in one area, albeit several large former council housing estates, but I am convinced that the people’s vote campaigners have had considerable success in confusing Labour’s message.
Felicity, it’s not the People’s Vote campaign which has confused voters, it’s the Brexiters within Labour forcing the Leadership to sit on the fence.
If Labour had made it clear right from the start and decided to give voters an opportunity to re-affirm their referendom vote, which ever way they chose, we would have a clear and unambiguous position upon which we could unite and campaign.
You’ve just read Felicity’s comment and then completely ignored it and gone off on one about lexiters. This comment isn’t about ‘activists’ or ‘right on lexiters’, it’s about real voters she has encountered. At least have the decency to listen, mull it over and understand everyone isn’t like you.
Linda, take the trouble to learn that disagreement isn’t ‘not listening’ and IS allowed in these columns. You do plenty of it yourself.
What part of this contains scope for ‘disagreement’? “This is an (almost) on – mass rejection of Labour based upon the false belief that we do not accept the result of the referendum.”
Linda, see further down.
Of course the so called peoples vote along side ‘another Europe is possible ‘ with Caroline lucas has created the breeding ground for contempt .Caroline lucas even created the motion which was presented at conference ,most CLPs were unaware at the time https://labourheartlands.com/meet-the-suits-behind-the-peoples-vote-campaign-and-open-britain/?fbclid=IwAR22fiUANCFuwYb4NFBogMHbPsGP9YCspiNLkOBAK9XFCp3Fu0uW7ZmepyQ
You’re in typical core conservative (small ‘c’) Brexitland – Sun/Mail/Express territory. I genuinely congratulate you on your stickability. But, particularly given current polarisation, there aren’t many likely Labour votes to be harvested. What votes there are will probably head to Farage, on the back of the sort of excuses you’ve been given.
Meanwhile, crucial parts of the core Labour majority ‘Remainer’ vote could well drift away.
Labour themselves have sent out this message.
The simplest way out of the mess would have been honesty.
“This is a Tory created mess. They started it, they can finish it. Labour will not be getting involved.”
They could have then waited and picked up the pieces. Instead, selfish types have been extremely vocal (like the spoilt types in denial over trump) and created a clear message that democracy (that doesn’t suit them) isn’t wanted.
That council estate is far from an exception.
If Labour is lucky, they’ll only punish in the European election
“Labour, rejecting even the notion of a new referendum as anything but a last resort, will win back those votes and more”:
How about the Corbyn leadership abiding by the overwhelming wish of the membership – for a public vote and to reverse Brexit? How about Labour taking a principled position for free movement? How about Labour clearly opposing racism? How about Labour taking a clear, principled and progressive position against Brexit and fighting for it? It ‘s what used to be called socialism.
So you think Labour should place the wishes of a few hundred thousand Labour members above the wishes of 17,400,000 leave voters?
You must be mad, Jim. Completely insane. Labour would be destroyed if it were to take the suicidal course of action you suggest.
Your position on freedom of movement is of course a nationalist argument. While our economy does benefit from immigration that gain comes at the cost of poorer EU stares who have lost millions of their best workers. That loss of workers suppresses growth in those economies and creates conditions which enable the rise of the far right across Europe.
Try not to be so nationalist and selfish, Jim. Freedom of movement in its current form is not a freedom at all. It is economic coercion. For it to work there would need to be a European minimum wage and massive investment in poorer EU states. Neither of those supporting policies exist currently.
The insistence of RH, Jack T and SteveH that Labour should ignore the electorate and put the wishes of a few hundred thousand Labour members above the votes of 17,400,000 leave voters is self evident electoral suicide.
Labour is a party of power, not a hobby horse for deluded pro-EU zealots who refuse to respect the largest mandate in British history.
The clue is in the Labour party’s name. Labour is a democratic socialist party. We respect democracy.
If you want to remain in the EU and don’t respect democracy then join the Liberal Democrats or the Independent Group.
The usual obsessive quartet of boring Remainer Trolls are posting like mad on this tonight – desperate to counter Skwawkbox’s damning evidence of their political bankruptcy – or deliberate intent to help prevent a Labour government. They of course don’t care that the electorally suicidal unconditional pro EU, and Remain and Second Referendum positions they advocate is already losing Labour millions of votes – and could yet lose us the General Election and potential Labour victory the majority of the UK population desperately need. What a disgraceful bunch of Mandelson stooges you tiny grouplet of trolls are.
I notice, with both amusement and irritation that the usual suspects group of 75 Labour Blairite Remainer MP’s and a few extra MEPs (terrified of losing their effortless EU gravy train) had the sheer lying brass neck to title themselves as ” Love Socialism – hate Brexit” in the cheeky letter to Jeremy and his team complaining that Labour didn’t commit itself to a second Referendum in our EU election leaflets ! This bunch of corrupt careerists are no more “socialist” than Theresa May.
Or you could just accept the reality that on this that they are representing the views and beliefs of the majority of the Labour Party’s membership and voters. It is you that is out of touch with the majority view within the party not them.
jpenney, spit it out, you’re not just ‘irritated’ you are hopping mad because we are making arguments which are irrefutable whilst yours are just fanatical pipe dreams.
When it comes to ‘fanatical pipe dreams’ what would you call the hope, expressed above, that the next EU President be a ‘leftwinger?’
Far too much deference is being shown to MPs whose loyalty to the people is questionable.
Those calling for another referendum, without specifying what it would be asking voters are simply perpetuating the rule of New Labour. Who are guided in this as always by the opinions and demands of the capitalists.
bevin 28/04/2019 at 12:23 am
Jean-Claude Juncker’s job is up for election later this year and the two leading candidates are from the EPP and PES so at the very least there is a reasonable prospect of electing a Socialist to the post of President of the EU Commission. Whether you agree with the UK being a member of the EU or not it is undeniable that a Socialist in this very influential post would have a very beneficial effect to the cause of Socialism throughout the EU and has the potential to enhance the lives of millions. Your attitude to this and your capitulation is reprehensible. And you have the nerve to call yourself a socialist, what happened to socialist solidarity.
As for your comments about another referendum, there has been numerous debates on these pages that have involved discussions around the ballot questions on a 2nd referendum and to claim otherwise is self evidently ridiculous.
Perhaps you could explain why you thought that it would help JC get elected as PM when you wrote this on 10/01/17
“However, as some of us have argued and illustrated here, Jeremy’s politics are actually a complete rag bag of inconsistent beliefs and policy proposals – drawn from ,variously, traditional reformist radical socialism, Stalinism, moralistic liberalism, Quakerish pacifism , identity politics, top-down old Labour Leftism, a rebel but also a profound believer in ” Labour Unity above all”.
And all bundled up in a man who spent a very comfortable 40 years as a “Left maverick” in the PLP/Labour party, constantly flirting with the Far Left , and sundry campaigns, but NEVER expecting to be in the “Leadership” of the Labour party today, and utterly hemmed in by the PLP Right and Centre .
And this shambolic political mish mash with which Jeremy navigated for 40 years in the risk-free, responsibilityless role of a powerless “PLP Leftie, for so many years, is now proving increasingly useless to lead the newly resurgent 500, 000 strong Labour Party Left-oriented members into decisive battle to win the Party Machine from the dead hand of the Right, Or construct a credible radical Left Reformist Political Programme to win mass support back to Labour.”
My comment is obviously directed at jpenney’s comment above
“Skwawkbox’s damning evidence”
Despite your lengthy fulminations, Ha’penny, it is interesting that you can’t diagnose total evidence-free bullshit when its under your nose.
Still – you keep banging on about ‘socialist theory’ and I’m sure that Labour will impress the electorate.
Jim, by racism I assume you mean anti-zionism. I’ll give you one thing, you have at least remained true, over the 30 years I have known you, to the AWL (and its predecessors) and its craven support for the State of Israel as the embodiment of political zionism. However, such apartheid policies and support for them have never been called socialism outside the AWL echo chamber.
AWL? Alliance for Workers’ Liberty? Hadn’t heard of them before this, but a quick search shows they’re part of the problem…
Linda, this bit:
“I am convinced that the people’s vote campaigners have had considerable success in confusing Labour’s message.”
You should have let your attention linger a little longer on what Felicity said.
YouGov is Tory owned and run. It is a consistent outlier showing Labour doing worse than it is.
Don’t pay too much attention to what is Tory propaganda.
But you were arguing exactly the opposite when YouGov polls were in favour of a second referendum.
Peoples vote campaigners are making it up as you go along. Your arguments are irrational and incoherent. On this thread People’s vote campaigners argue Labour must support a second referendum because a few hundred thousand Labour members support remain. But 17,400,000 people voted leave. Labour is not a protest movement, we must respect the views of the electorate not remain zealots if we are going to win power and defeat the Tories.
If we do not Brexit will happen anyway and the Tories will remain in power indefinitely.
Ps. Using the name left politics today doesn’t fool anyone. The last thing people like you want is a socialist Labour government.
Your views on Brexit are the same as the Independent Group.
Internal Affairs 27/04/2019 at 11:38 pm
“But you were arguing exactly the opposite when YouGov polls were in favour of a second referendum.”
….but all the polls (even the recent one commissioned by ‘Leave Means Leave’) give similar results. Apart from the academic survey about Tory Party members can you give a link to a recent poll or survey that supports your position.
You choose some strange bedfellows.
Logic, reason and rationally interpretating data is not a bedfellow, it is an intellectual and academic approach to evaluating information.
Your tactic of smearing people merely shows you have no logical argument to make, and coming from a person like you, who is a fellow traveller of war criminals, is just absurd.
Internal Affairs 28/04/2019 at 12:49 am
You really should put your brain in gear before (metaphorically) putting pen to paper.
“Logic, reason and rationally interpretating data is not a bedfellow, it is an intellectual and academic approach to evaluating information.”
I’m still trying to translate that one into a recognisable language . Is it Fuller’s Earth Speak?
.. or is it just an expression of a garbled confusion that wishes reality would just go away and not disturb dreams?
”Your views on Brexit are the same as the Independent Group.”
No coincidence that I’ve not seen any rebuttal of that.
… and the Lexit view coincides totally with the extreme right Faragists and ERG.
So ….
That’s right – except you agree with umunna.
For fucking shame.
My own poll among Corbyn supporting voters in Hastings is that many will vote for the closest best ‘remain’ candidate because of Labour’s fudge, and if that is a Green candidate, so be it;. Such a sense if disappointment in Jeremy will also feed into any future General Election. Sorry, but there you have it.
This mirrors my own experience, it would be to the Labour Party’s eternal shame and the ultimate irony if they jeopardised Labour’s GE victory by defying the Labour Party’s membership and voters especially in a party where the leader has declared “policy will be made by Labour members, not the leader”
… and mine – which is why several of us bang on about the mistake being made – now backed by considerable data – that Labour is missing the point big time.
What all the fake analysis about the importance of the Leave vote misses (amongst other things) is that Labour’s period of ‘constructive ambiguity’ and failure to distinguish itself sufficiently from the Tories has seen an overall decline in vote share of 10-15% over a period of 2 years.
I am glad that jpenney draws attention to the Blairite chutzpah of the “Love Socialism, Hate Brexit” letter whose signatories favour capitalism as much as the Tories.
But for me, the chutzpah got more amusing as regards the way the signatures were ordered: a few dodgy Corbynista MPs first, then relegated to page 2 the hoards of Right-wing MPs who’d voted no confidence in Jeremy almost from the outset.
Mind you, I find it increasingly difficult to see substantive difference between Corbynistas and Blairites anyway since the Labour Left has largely junked economic planning and public ownership (and Labour Left support for the EU is entirely a consequence of this). Both Corbynistas and Blairites share the conviction that, in Margaret Thatcher’s parlance, “There Is No Alternative” to capitalism.
On another tack, I wonder if there is really mileage for an option to put “Remain in the EU” in any referendum which is merely a “confirmatory vote” on a specific deal. Surely the only legitimate question is along the lines of: “Do you support the withdrawal agreement? (A) Support (B) Reject?” Rejection can in no way be taken as approving continued membership of the EU. I struggle to believe that the Electoral Commission would approve a question which additionally tries to smuggle in the issue of continued membership, although one never knows (and Parliament is sovereign to fashion its own question).
Be that as it may, I fear that Leave voters who traditionally support Labour have ALREADY been given the impression in bucketloads that Labour does not want their votes. Labour in the Euro Elections must hope that the Tory collapse surpasses its own.
http://www.thefullbrexit.com/labour-left
Danny – I support the economic policies in the 2017 Labour Party manifesto, do you?
“the hoards of Right-wing MPs ”
They are beside the point. It’s the hoards of Labour members and voters for ‘Remain’ that *are* the point. Simply bullshitting the words ‘capitalism’ and ‘socialism’ doesn’t actually bring home the bacon of votes, even if it makes you feel righteous.
I notice that Labour policy is as follows :
” we want to get a Brexit deal that puts our economy and living standards first and protects our environmental protections, workplace protections, health and safety standards.”
“We want a customs union arrangement in order to keep our borders open, so that our manufacturing industry isn’t detrimentally affected, and we keep the movement of goods flowing as freely as possible. And we want a strong single market relationship.”
Which, as one agnostic pointed out to me is ……
‘REMAIN’.
… which would be fine by them and would secure their vote – and a lot of others..
The job of getting into Downing Street is just too important – the lives of thousands and the quality of life of millions depends on Labour succeeding and failure will condemn them to Tory predations whether we’re in or out of the EU.
Pay heed, because if it doesn’t happen we know who’s to blame. And any misfortune that becomes them as a result will be karma.
The way I see it is ”Two birds, one stone”. A whole layer of unwanted bureaucracy done with, and a labour Govt we desperately want a thouroughly deserve (Hopefully with a certain few snides losing their seats in the process, trebles all round!).
What’s not to like?
What happens the next time a Tory government gets in with a descent majority?
You’ll have enabled it. Thats what.
The Toffee (597) 28/04/2019 at 4:53 pm
Oh! So you haven’t thought that one through yet.
Oh, but it’s never crossed my mind.
Said the liar. Every bastard time you pipe up I see it becoming an ever-increasing probability.
The Toffee (597) 28/04/2019 at 5:06 pm
So are you going to answer my question or just mess about posting nonsense. It does make one wonder why you are so reluctant to answer a straightforward question that you must already have thought through.
“What happens the next time a Tory government gets in with a descent majority?”
What is a descent majority? I’ve never heard that term before. A DECENT majority, you mean?
And you’ve been told. You’ll have enabled it.
Perhaps “descent” was unwittingly correct, cos the Tories are only heading in one direction!
… and what happens when a Labour government struggles swith the failing economy bequeathed by the Tory Brexit policy and is forced into submission by the larger trading blocks … and has to agree unfavourable terms of trade?
Yer, whatever.
They still couldn’t do any worse than the toerags.
WTF are you on about now? We aren’t ‘forced’ to accept trade deals with anyone. We currently deal with America and China without trade deals. The only deals we are ‘forced’ into are those which offer something we can’t get elsewhere (fossil fuels and some minerals). If we apply that reasoning, we would be better off signing a trade deal with Russia than anyone else.
You are obsessed with laissez-faire economics and are unable to see past neoliberal trading blocs.
“Yer, whatever.” & “WTF are you on about now?”
I couldn’t have satirized the incomprehension of the Lexiteer better.
… and one of them thinks that paroting French words indicates a knowledge of their meaning.
Point proved. They haven’t got an f.ing clue!
Fox’s ‘easy peasy’ useful tools – ready to do deals with …
…. Israel and the Faeroes!
With that sort of insight, he might sign you up. Or the incisive Davies might need a shoe-shine!
I notice you didn’t address my comment in an adult way, nor provide a rebuttal. That’s because you know jack shit.
Sorry that you find it so hard to grasp, I must have misinterpreted your ‘adult’ claim with “WTF are you on about now?” Perhaps a repost might be “WTO are you on about now?”
If I have to spell it out in neon lights and shout for the benefit of the sensory impaired :
“We aren’t ‘forced’ to accept trade deals with anyone.”
Of course not in the absolute sense. We can live in an isolated and impoverished small island, self-pleasuring and dreaming that its ‘socialism’.
But the real world requires trade agreements. I don’t think that even the loopiest of the ERG would contest that idea.
Those trade agreements are negotiated in a context of self-interest by both parties. That results in a framework of conditions for trade.
Those conditions will be biased by the relative power of the negotiating parties. (Thus the chlorinated chicken fear, for instance).
Outside the EU, the UK will have to renegotiate existing agreements and find new ones.
As seen by the outcome of Fox’s pathetic struggles, these negotiations are lengthy, and far from a piece of piss.
The EU, with whom we have massively significant trade will not, for a start, agree to terms better than what already exist, with all the attached strings. Why would it?
The US and China – other potential trading partners – have a significant advantage against a UK flying solo (as opposed to being part of a major trading block).
All that has *nothing* to do with ‘laissez faire’ economics : trade is very much an interventionist process (even given that there is actually such a thing as ‘laissez faire’. All economies are rigged). And if you want trade, you have to play that game. It’s not a choice.
We will be the Sunday league up against the Premiership – as Fox has found out.
Putting the head under imaginary blankets isn’t an option.
Equally not an option is the creation of a more equal, just and functional society (the term ‘socialist’ has become so abused by being a football amongst all and sundry from Stalinists to Blairites, it’s lost any real descriptive power) whilst fighting off the depredations of an economic crisis and decline in living standards.
Thus the ‘What happens?’ question that I posed.
Thanks Richard, very clear exposition
I guess that the other thing that needs to be said is that none of this – or the Remain position in general implies a celebration of the perfection of the EU or an ignoring of its flaws.
It’s just a simple matter of choice – and from my perspective the concept of ‘Lexit’ is simply a non-starter in terms of a credible alternative. It really is that simple – Ockam’s razor again, not religious faith v. conspiracy..