On Friday BBC claimed military parade was video of Russian invasion – now Mirror’s political editor gets in on act with 2014 army recruitment video supposedly new ‘blinder’ of propaganda
On Friday, the BBC broadcast video it claimed was of the Russian invasion of Ukraine showing Russian planes over Kiev. The video was old footage of Ukrainian planes flying over Moscow as part of a military parade. The BBC tried to claim this was shown in error – but former BBC journalists have said such an error would be ‘near-impossible’, as old footage would have to be specifically requested from the BBC’s archive.
And on Saturday evening, the Mirror’s political editor Pippa Crerar got in on the act. Ms Crerar tweeted a video that she described as current propaganda by the Ukrainian government and presented as showing Ukraine ‘playing a blinder in the information war’. She went on to comment that,
This from their defence ministry is very moving.
But the video is in fact an years-old Ukrainian army recruitment video. Not only that, but the video she had recycled by embedding it in her tweet showed she had taken it from a 2021 tweet that said it was an old army recruitment video – and this was rapidly pointed out to her:
In fact, the video was first published eight years ago, as another commenter pointed out and evidenced:
The situation in Ukraine is surely horrific enough. But in the space of only a day and a half the national media have published two claims that turned out to be grossly incorrect, misleading the people of this country – with the BBC unfeasibly claiming it had done by mistake.
At the time of writing, Pippa Crerar had not responded to those pointing out the mismatch or otherwise tweeted about it, though she did publish another Ukraine-related tweet in the last hour. She has been contacted for comment.
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We expect propoganda from the BBC and old footage of anything.Whats very worrying for me personally is that Germany has been unleashed into the Russian Ukrainian war without the batting of an eyelid.We now see stinger missiles and anti\tank weapons being supplied by Germany and other balkan countries getting involved.No coincidence then that we now see the Japanese involvement increasing in the sabre rattling in the S.China sea.ITs beggining to look like a warm up for world war three and its awakening memorys of my brother and sisters hiding under the table in the kitchen as the bombs dropped.My elder brother and I spoke on the phone last night and hes saying that it is all coming back.,…and hes like me extremely worried for our children and grandchildren in a “World at war”
“I am horrified at the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I stand with the people of Ukraine and have unequivocally condemned Putin’s actions; I loathe his authoritarian, nationalist and right-wing regime.”
I looked at the footage of the Ukrainian civilians walking along the roads hopelessly trying to flee the bombs and missiles.Britain one of the biggist sabre rattling countrys must open its doors wide for all refugees from the conflict and that must include the Dombass republics who have been suffering attacks from Ukrainian Nazis for nearly a decade ago and nothing is ever mentioned here or anywhere else that the Dombass has lived in a war situation for far too long…..God save the queen?I see that Boris is waiving the “all clear siren for partygate” ….luck of the devil and a country with no Oposition party other than a Tory tribute act calling for Britain to go to war in the Balkans….pathetic Sir knight to end all nights. “
The BBC is crowbarring pro-NATO Ukraine propaganda into anything they can at the moment. Even the post-match interviews on Match of the Day FFS! And on the news preceding it, the coverage was reserved exclusively for those fleeing bombardment westwards. Absolutely zilch about the Ukrainians fleeing bombardment eastward, of course. Wrong kind of Ukranians, apparently!
Good morning timfrom…its all quiet on the Western front or should it be eastern front?I have been trying to work out a couple of cunundrums this morning after speaking to my eldest brother who in his mid eightys misses nothing.and still highly politicised.He asked me if I noticed the comment from China of a “change in circumstances” in reference to a friendly mtg between N.Korea and China and the broad smiles between the two leaders. My brother like me cannot understand the lodgic behind the war in the Balkans and the facts that Ukraine export to Russia a substantial amount of iron,steel and cereals.But by far the largest export is grain,corn,and wheat to China.So why would the Ukrainian people whish to sour relations by joining the enemy of Russia and China Nato.?China can survive without grain from the Ukraine but cant survive without Oil.Enter Russia and the Siberian pipline and like my communist party brother says and hes very well world travelled and not a senile old man….. “Weve got another Yanky oil war ?and he finished our conversation with we are not all senile old men like that molester in the White house and whoever his pulling his strings has bitten off more than they can chew…..God bless America?…thats me not my brother hes not religious .
Timfrom you may want to look at RT today while you are allowed “The Chinese embassy have released a document that describes “the real threat to world peace and democracy.”
” ” Amercas democracy world tour “describing what they say is the real threat to world peace.A list of eighty one countries out of one hundred bombed into the stoneage from 1952-2022 and that includes a neutral country Cambodia on the orders of Richard Nixon under the secret war that also targeted exclusively the rice fields and the civilians that lived there with agent Orange and other chemical weapons.Laos also was bombed out of existence despite being one of the most peace loving people on the planet…..God bless America?
@Joseph
The empire of lies
Don’t forget to say, ” thank you for our servants”, Wait and see.
Wobbly – Even the Chinese state couldn’t bring themselves to support Putin. The only states to support Russia were Belarus, Eritrea, North Korea and Syria.
UNITED NATIONS, March 2 (Reuters) – The United Nations General Assembly on Wednesday overwhelmingly voted to reprimand Russia for invading Ukraine and demanded that Moscow stop fighting and withdraw its military forces, an action that aims to diplomatically isolate Russia at the world body.
The resolution, supported by 141 of the assembly’s 193 members, passed in a rare emergency session called by the U.N. Security Council while Ukrainian forces battled to defend the port of Kherson in the face of air strikes and a devastating bombardment that forced hundreds of thousands of people to flee.
The text of the resolution deplores Russia’s “aggression against Ukraine.” The last time the Security Council convened an emergency session of the General Assembly was in 1982……….
Russia was joined by Belarus, which has served as a launch pad for Russian invasion forces, Eritrea, North Korea and Syria in voting against the resolution. Thirty-five members, including China, abstained
https://www.reuters.com/world/un-general-assembly-set-censure-russia-over-ukraine-invasion-2022-03-02/ .
Spot on Tim. Thanks for this.
Regarding propaganda I find it fascinating that our media is,rightly,praising Hungary and Poland for its open door policy to Ukrainian refugees but am a bit surprised they never mention when it was Syrians fleeing war those same countries set the dogs on them.
Jim ….Ireland has just opened the door to all Ukrainian refugees despite not being involved in the power games.Much is coming out now about the Ukrainian puppet regime and the corruption of the Biden family,
hopefully Russia can get the documents if they take the capital which implicates the former leader of Ukraine and the corruption of the current comedian wherever he’s hiding..
I feel desperately sorry for the Ukrainian people who like most people only want a share of the cake and nothing more.!
Yes, the same LibDem and Labour Tory Centrists are doing the same…Open the doors they say, as long as they have got white skins. Utterly sickening racism.
The BBC at its internationally renowned impartial best.
Not like the propagandists at RT, our on the spot, well-researched Money Sucking Munchkins, tell us how it is no arguments.
Plucky Ukrainians playing a blinder with their hand guns, rifles and petrol bombs
We see them shredding polystyrene to put in the petrol bomb bottles, too! Ingenious. Wonder who taught them that…?
JC
Now would be a good time to launch a Peace and Justice Socialist Party
But here is an example of the Iron Fist inside a Velvet glove strategy that must be deployed
Bring back the death sentence for anyone calling for War or the destruction of humanity
Snowflakes and Soft Shites need not apply
@Doug
…Bring back the death sentence for anyone calling for War or the destruction of humanity…
No. That is not the solution. A better one would be the automatic enlistment and dispatch of all family. How many folks are enthusiastic about sending their children off to war?
The BBC and Crerar playing for Putin’s team now? Anyways, this plays perfectly in favour of the far right Putin fan boys crew.
Because soon when killing fields, mass rape or mass grave info will filter out, we will all doubt it. The Far Right will leap to defend Russia while the left… will stutter and say little *because indeed, this could really be fake news*. What the heck could we do?
Bennmissed La pointe….nothing to do with left or right communist or conservative.ITs world government and corruption and greed.in the Ukraine
Putins Russia are nationalists and in many respects so is Putin.They are not part of the Banksters and gangsters of the west,but the Ukrainian puppet regime very much is.I only comment to deflect the ignorence of the seriously delusional and confused 😕who still think that the old labels apply.Maybe try neo liberal which might be more appropriate for your next rigged labour party mtg…Zoom in…Zoom out we know what its about comrades.
Well said Joseph.
Putin is very part of the banksters and gangsters. Just not *our* banksters and gangsters. We can give him credit for being a nationalist working in the interest of Russia and he is (was?) a rational actor.
But that’s the thing, in these polarising times, it’s almost impossible to hold the nuanced view that 1. Putin is (was?) acting rationally in the face of NATO provocation 2. That we are led by useless criminal warmongering lying corporate shills donkeys 3. That Putin, despite being smarter and more cunning that the showers of shit leading us *is NOT your friend*. He represent what everything the left hates (climate denyer corporate oil friendly allergic to the normal rule of law).
But the sad fact, tragedy even, is that it is the constant NATO hostility that makes the likes of Putin possible.
@Ben
Putin is very rational. You clearly haven’t been following the history behind this.
@Joseph
Nice counter to Ben’s drivel.
@all
Seems rumours of biolabs in Ukraine is one of the reasons for the Russians sudden lack of patience. This theory is reinforced by the US Ukraine Embassy deleting all PDFs concerning this. Way back machine has the evidence if you can be bothered to look.
From elsewhere on the web;
…Fascist ideology existed prior to the Industrial Age and was articulated and circulated in the Elizabethan Age by Francis Bacon in his book, An Advertisement Touching on Holy War, advocating a genocide aimed at the masses–the Many Headed Hydra as he saw them. IMO, the English were the first Nazis. Thus, the ideology was spread globally via the actions of the British Empire and was aped by other Imperiums…
Fairly accurate, no?
Fucking climate denier!!!
There is no climate, what we will do?!
First it was global cooling during my childhood, then it was global warming. Each was proven to be horseshit. So we went with climate change. And what exactly does the climate do apart from constantly change?
You’ll also note that the biggest offenders in regards to pollution are the same that tell us we need to change.
Bet you still use disposable razors and shower gel…
@never voting… yes, climate changes all the time. And at the time of dinosaurs, it was much warmer than now. But the thing is, we’re not dinosaurs, aren’t we. We adapted to a certain climate, growing fields producing food where the rain falls, and cities nearby. We are dependent on this planet and the poorly understood ecosystems living on its surface and oceans. And it’s not just about climate, but direct pollution. Big swing in climate = mass extinction. Life will carry on, sure. But humans might get wiped out. Or the minority who will survive will have a shit existence.
If you don’t care about this, you’re either an idiot who can’t think ahead, or you’re a nihilist.
If you don’t care about this, you’re either an idiot who can’t think ahead, or you’re a nihilist.
Or maybe I’m capable of questioning everything I see and am told?
The people who have profited most from the causes of global warming are now telling you times up.
I won’t disagree that we need to change many bad habits, but that you never answered about disposable razors and shower gel tells me you’re as full of shit as the elites are.
Hopefully your handwringing will keep you warm next winter
Well said Joseph. I even briefly wondered if Ben Lp was deliberately mis-reading the situation (sorry Ben, it’s not personal, just the ‘stevieh effect’ (he seems to do that for a living here)).
Truth is, analysis of the situation show it is not as simple as ‘right’, ‘left’, ‘Russia’, Ukraine’, ‘Nato’, etc..
Just as the BBC (and lesser MSM) misrepresents the actuality to us, they cannot be expected to explain the real agenda, the real dynamics and the real beneficiaries of this particular (completely engineered) storm in a piss-pot, can they??
For those on here who are interested in knowing a bit of background on the Ukrainian issue please watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
Thanks baz2001 – that UoC piece is very useful. 10 mins and a quick of Johan Eddebo’s What’s really going on in Ukraine can clear some of the misinformation and lies too.
Taking a long-term global view of all this.
Learn from history … The history of American interventionism worldwide over a life-time.
How so-many “rogue states” seem to be oil-and-gas rich – Iran, Iraq, Libya, Venezuela ….. etc.
How the American dog wags the UK tail in conflict after conflict.
I’m in my mid-70s.
The one consistent “sponsor of international terrorism” all my life has been that “defender of freedom and domocracy” – – – the US of A.
Re. the NATO build-up confronting Russia – – – Either it was intended to deter Russia from attacking Ukraine … or … it was designed to provoke a Russian pre-emptive attack.
Perhaps our leaders should tell us.
Just came across this excellent article in Counterpunch, albeit published on the 23rd, the day before Russia began its invasion of Ukraine:
Glimmers of inconvenient truth have flickered only rarely in mainstream U.S. media outlets, while a bit more likely in Europe. “Biden has said repeatedly that the U.S. is open to diplomacy with Russia, but on the issue that Moscow has most emphasized — NATO enlargement — there has been no American diplomacy at all,” Jeffrey Sachs wrote in the Financial Times as this week began. “Putin has repeatedly demanded that the U.S. forswear NATO’s enlargement into Ukraine, while Biden has repeatedly asserted that membership of the alliance is Ukraine’s choice.”
As Sachs noted, “Many insist that NATO enlargement is not the real issue for Putin and that he wants to recreate the Russian empire, pure and simple. Everything else, including NATO enlargement, they claim, is a mere distraction. This is utterly mistaken. Russia has adamantly opposed NATO expansion towards the east for 30 years, first under Boris Yeltsin and now Putin…. Neither the U.S. nor Russia wants the other’s military on their doorstep.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2022/02/23/bob-dylan-and-the-ukraine-crisis/
And Caitlin Johnstone posted the following article a couple of days ago:
Experts Warned For Years That NATO Expansion Would Lead To This
https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2022/02/25/experts-warned-for-years-that-nato-expansion-would-lead-to-this/
And although it was posted ten days ago – and Russia has now invaded – as was pretty much inevitable if the US/NATO refused to agree to Putin’s proposals – the following article by John Pilger is well worth reading:
Setting aside the manoeuvres and cynicism of geopolitics, whomever the players, this historical memory is the driving force behind Russia’s respect-seeking, self-protective security proposals, which were published in Moscow in the week the UN voted 130-2 to outlaw Nazism. They are:
– NATO guarantees that it will not deploy missiles in nations bordering Russia. (They are already in place from Slovenia to Romania, with Poland to follow)
– NATO to stop military and naval exercises in nations and seas bordering Russia.
– Ukraine will not become a member of NATO.
– the West and Russia to sign a binding East-West security pact.
– the landmark treaty between the US and Russia covering intermediate-range nuclear weapons to be restored. (The US abandoned it in 2019)
These amount to a comprehensive draft of a peace plan for all of post-war Europe and ought to be welcomed in the West. But who understands their significance in Britain? What they are told is that Putin is a pariah and a threat to Christendom.
http://johnpilger.com/articles/war-in-europe-and-the-rise-of-raw-propaganda
Just saw your post NVLA……. could you elaborate
Yes, 50 members of the US national security/foreign policy establishment wrote to Clinton in 1997.
And, in this country Denis Healey, a former defence secretary opposed NATO expansion.
Allan, Thanks for John Pilger’s piece, is brilliant.
@allen
Hi princess. You should have mentioned how the Russians have twice swallowed previous expansions, and said at the announcement if the third that it was not happening.
And yes, I’ve been waiting for you to post.
Just had a thought
Why don’t Russia send a load of nuclear weapons to Cuba, Venezuela Iraq and Iran
Or
Ask them to join a joint defence force along with China
hehe, not just un-American, that idea is anti-American. Only terrorists, non-vaxed coviddeniers, Jew haters, corrupt Russian billionaires, fluoride deniers and maybe authoritarian China could propose anything so dangerous. Have another slice of apple pie, stay masked and stay calm (and get a boost just to be on the safe side).
Or even TWO, whilst your at it!
Doh!….. you’re at it!!
‘Why don’t Russia send a load of nuclear weapons to Cuba……….? Is history repeating itself?
first time as tragedy, 2nd time as farce..?
Let’s try the context button
So a young girl runs naked out of a village in Vietnam her body on fire from a chemical weapons attack
I don’t even want to think how the current BBC news team would cover that one
Could Temporary Embarrassment step up and ask Agent Orange leader of the original Blue Tory party
Putin is the one who is bombarding civilians and planning to starve the men, women and children of Kiev into submission.
Is getting dangerous.
Some of us socialist have been calling for Peace Talks between Ukraine and Russia and hopefully these are due soon on the border.
Haven’t enough lives been wasted already?
And if we had had political heavyweights it could have been avoided.
As peace protesters and even the Pope call for an immediate peace the West say they are going to send more arms and some political fools even say volunteer Western fighters would be welcome.
Oh Dear, we need to turn the noise down not ramp it up on both sides.
We need independent critical thinkers and genuine statesmen and women to emerge.
At the moment tragically as Goya said:
“Reason sleeps.” Yours in peace.
Bazza – Putin has illegally invaded Ukraine. The solution is simple, all he has to do is withdraw from Ukraine and take his invasion force back home to their barracks and this problem which is of Putin’s own making will be solved.
SH perhaps you should read John Pilger’s piece as posted by Alan Howard.
Bazza, as you can see from this piece by Johan Eddebo this problem has been brewing for a while. Unfortunately every time Ukraine signs an agreement they never keep to it. So Putin sends the army in. US/NATO should keep out and stop winding Russia up and let them sort it out amongst themselves.
https://off-guardian.org/2022/02/25/whats-really-going-on-in-ukraine/
bazz2001 The idea that Russia was under any threat of being invaded is laughable, Putin’s biggest threat comes from the Russian people saying enough is enough. The only thing at risk here is Putin’s over inflated hubris,
This is what Zara Sultana has said about the Putin’s illegal invasion of Ukraine an independent sovereign state.
“I am horrified at the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I stand with the people of Ukraine and have unequivocally condemned Putin’s actions; I loathe his authoritarian, nationalist and right-wing regime.”
SteveH, is THIS really too much to ask:
– NATO guarantees that it will not deploy missiles in nations bordering Russia. (They are already in place from Slovenia to Romania, with Poland to follow)
– NATO to stop military and naval exercises in nations and seas bordering Russia.
– Ukraine will not become a member of NATO.
– the West and Russia to sign a binding East-West security pact.
– the landmark treaty between the US and Russia covering intermediate-range nuclear weapons to be restored. (The US abandoned it in 2019)
If so, could you explain why? If Biden and Co had agreed then the invasion wouldn’t have happened, and all the death and destruction and devastation.
Allan – That is for the people of Ukraine to decide. The idea that Russia was going to be invaded is simply laughable.
Apologies Bazza (Yes, I know I’m wasting my time with SteveH, but anyway)
The following is from an article by Paul Craig Roberts posted three days ago:
In his speech this morning Putin explained the long years of Russian frustration in her efforts to achieve mutual security with the West which remained intent on its own domination. Here are opening words from Putin’s address:
“I consider it necessary today to speak again about the tragic events in Donbass and the key aspects of ensuring the security of Russia.
I will begin with what I said in my address on February 21, 2022. I spoke about our biggest concerns and worries, and about the fundamental threats which irresponsible Western politicians created for Russia consistently, rudely and unceremoniously from year to year. I am referring to the eastward expansion of NATO, which is moving its military infrastructure ever closer to the Russian border.
It is a fact that over the past 30 years we have been patiently trying to come to an agreement with the leading NATO countries regarding the principles of equal and indivisible security in Europe. In response to our proposals, we invariably faced either cynical deception and lies or attempts at pressure and blackmail, while the North Atlantic alliance continued to expand despite our protests and concerns. Its military machine is moving and, as I said, is approaching our very border.
Why is this happening? Where did this insolent manner of talking down from the height of their exceptionalism, infallibility and all-permissiveness come from? What is the explanation for this contemptuous and disdainful attitude to our interests and absolutely legitimate demands?
The answer is simple. Everything is clear and obvious. In the late 1980s, the Soviet Union grew weaker and subsequently broke apart. That experience should serve as a good lesson for us, because it has shown us that the paralysis of power and will is the first step towards complete degradation and oblivion. We lost confidence for only one moment, but it was enough to disrupt the balance of forces in the world.”
https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2022/02/24/they-didnt-hear-what-we-told-them-they-had-better-hear-this-time/
Oh, I see you got out of that one nicely! But, pray, do tell, what do YOU think?
Allan – I thought I’d already made that crystal clear. I think that It is up to the people of Ukraine to decide whether they want to join NATO and/or the EU or not.
The idea that Russia is at risk of being invaded is just nonsense. The collapse of Putin’s regime will come about when the Russian people deciding that they’ve had enough of his authoritarian rule and corruption. If he doesn’t do the world a favour and die first.
Baz21. Excellent as I also found ‘Natoland’ in Sidecar, the blog from New Left Review.
As a poem I once wrote said:
“The more you live, the more you know.
The more you see, the more you grow.”
Perhaps Zara needs to read Pilger’s piece too?
It chimes with what a Ukrainian sociologist was recently saying and the Donbas region may be part of the solution as well as Ukraine’s neutrality and the very same sociologist said, in the last poll in the Ukraine 40% favoured NATO whilst 40% were against and they didn’t count the Donbas region plus 50% of the population in Ukraine are of Russian descent or are Russian speaking.
The tragedy is in the West (including Starmer) we are led by political lightweights who when the US (who fund two thirds of NATO) says jump!
They say how high?
When we need heavyweight independent socialist critical thinkers who are open to learning.
Let’s hope these Peace Talks bring Peace and stop the waste of life; it could have and should have been prevented.
Yours in Peace To All.
Bazza – I would be surprised if she hasn’t but perhaps she has also read this
On the Kremlin’s imperialism
Posted on February 23, 2022 by J. M. Korhonen
Greetings from a Finnish leftist!
The international situation has apparently left many people in the English-speaking countries confused. I write this thread in the hopes of sharing a perspective I believe is widely if not unilaterally shared in Finland, most leftists included.
What we see happening in #Ukraine right now is, to put it bluntly, Russian (or more precisely, the Kremlin’s) imperialism. If no other evidence convinces you, I beseech you to read a translation of Putin’s speech yesterday.
This has very little if anything to do with NATO, and almost everything to do with Putin’s desire to reinstate the Russian Empire. He has consistently maintained in public that it was a “mistake” to “allow” the former Soviet republics to become independent.
Now he said out loud that Lenin made an error in 1917 when he let the former Russian territories “go.” One of the countries that gained independence from Russia in 1917, by the way, was Finland.
What Putin seems to fear the most, rightly so, is that democratic revolution reaches Moscow. Thus, democracy itself is a threat to him.
He is not really afraid of NATO military forces: we can objectively demonstrate that the deployment of NATO forces to countries close to Russia used to be laughably minuscule before 2014.
Only after Putin’s blatant 2008 and 2014 breaches of post-World War II convention of not redrawing the map of Europe with a sword did NATO even step up military deployments. Still, the deployments were mostly cosmetic.
The post-2017 “enhanced forward presence” in the Baltics, for instance, consisted of four battalion task groups. Independent analysts have now counted about 125 similar Russian army groups massing along Ukraine’s borders.
The most powerful nuclear weapon states in the world really do not fear an attack by other nation states. But what frightens Putin and his band of kleptocrats is the very real possibility that the Russian people decide to get rid of them.
Democratic, successful countries bordering European Russia are a menace to him personally. They show the Russians an alternative, and can serve as sanctuaries for dissidents that Putin would like to invite for a tea by the window.
This is the reason why Putin is doing his best to undermine the European Union, for instance. He cynically supports the European and American far right, up to and including support from clandestine intelligence services and financial assistance………….
read the full article here
https://jmkorhonen.net/2022/02/23/on-the-kremlins-imperialism/
I’m sure Dr J M Korhonen is genuine and sincere as far as she goes, but…. if that’s all you can find stevieh, I’m reasonably confident that the ‘Ukraine Narrative’ is as solid and foundational as the same gang’s ‘Covid Narrative’ was. Unjustified FEAR and fear-mongering is a big-part in both of these establishment contricks.
As of 2021, Russia held natural resources amounting to an estimated total value of 75 trillion U.S. dollars.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/748223/leading-countries-based-on-natural-resource-value/
I have a sneaky feeling there are some people out there who would like to get their hands on it. And Vladimir Putin knows it!
Allan – Don’t be silly,. Ask yourself, would Putin have invaded Ukraine if they still had nuclear weapons?
It’s like training a dog: “would Putin have invaded Ukraine if…”
He hasn’t invaded Ukraine. It’s a “Special Operation”. Thing is Stevieh, if it were an”invasion” in any meaningful sense of that word, it would be an “illegal” war – and I don’t think anyone is saying that. it is or raising the appropriate paperwork at the UN.
It’s a defensive position – not an imperialist expansion.
qwertboi – Are you really so monumentally stupid, or are you just playing games?
Don’t worry Stevo, I didn’t notice that you avoided answering my question. Yet AGAIN!
So do you not think that Putin’s proposals were reasonable? And if not, can you explain why?
Manu thankss
Allan – I haven’t avoided answering your question My answer is clear and concise and there for all to see.
As for the rest of your post well my answer is the same It is for the people of Ukraine to decide what is and isn’t acceptable to them.
As I’ve said before it is absolutely ludicrous to suggest that Russia was under any threat of attack. You only have to ask yourself, would Putin have illegally invaded Ukraine if they still had nuclear weapons and whilst you’re at it ask yourself why the people of Ukraine should ever trust Putin again.
SteveH, Take the last proposal in the list – ie The landmark treaty between the US and Russia covering intermediate-range nuclear weapons to be restored. (The US abandoned it in 2019)
Do you not think that is perfectly reasonable? What possible reason would Biden and Co have for NOT restoring the treaty?
And the one before that – ie The West and Russia to sign a binding East-West security pact.
I mean what possible reason would NATO/US have for refusing to do so? Can you think of any?
Allan – Didn’t the US pull out of this treaty because the Russians developed and deployed hypersonic nuclear weapons. Your broad brush assertions are all well but the devil is in the detail and why would anyone ever trust Putin again.
“NATO’s minuscule forces near Russia” (?)
The tiny Finnish Red Green Party are entitled to their view and it is funny you are now pointing to Leftish sources, and radical actions in Russia but the acceptance of crumbs for diverse working people in the UK and elsewhere.
According to ‘Natoland’ New Left Review Blog Sidecar, post German reunification NATO promised not to go “One more inch East.”
It has gone 800 miles East in the last 30 years.
You are a social democrat, we are not nationalists like Putin, we are left wing democratic socialists and want a peaceful transformation in every country, you accept crumbs and Neo-Liberal capitalism.
I stand by Pilger’s piece and perhaps if Ukraine and NATO had stuck to what they’d agreed including in Minsk we would not have had this tragedy.
Now could you read Pilger’s piece and comment on it?
Bazza – You are the one who is making feeble excuses for Putin.
No I believe when countries sign agreements they should stand by them.
When Putin was raising cities in Chechnya the Left were desperately raising the issue but not a peep from the West, according to the Sidecar Blog (New Left Review) Putin was then seen as being “On side” and in the Presidential Election that soon followed “Blair rushed to Moscow to be the first to congratulate him.”
On the first night of Russian airstrikes someone on FB showed a brilliant global map of other airstrikes around the world (not counting US drones in Pakistan etc) that night: 37 by Saudi Arabia in Yemen, Israel in Syria, the US in Somalia, and Israel in Palestine.
STOP ALL WARS!
BACK TO THE MINSK DEAL!
Oh and you still haven’t commented on John Pilger’s piece, what’s up can’t you cope with a brilliant investigative journalist, sadly a declining group in A Post Truth World?
Let’s hope the peace talks succeed whilst politicians seem to want to risk others lives.
Critically thinking socialists would have prevented this tragedy.
Bazza – I have already read John Pilger’s opinion.
Bazza, Well said,
On here at the moment we have certain people with half a brain arguing against hugely intelligent journalists who over decades have established their provenance and reputation. Really don’t waste your time on paid shills, it will give you a headache.
As an aside….
“7 FAKE NEWS stories coming out of Ukraine”
There are plenty of fake stories coming out of Ukraine with predictably the BBC carrying it’s fair share, read this :
https://off-guardian.org/2022/02/27/7-fake-news-stories-coming-out-of-ukraine/
Yes the first casualty of war is the truth.
Oh Dear, some of us have been pushing for peace talks and an end to the waste of life.
But macho Western Leaders sending more weapons to Ukraine including our Parliament of Fools, and encouraging volunteer fighters from the West IS NOT HELPING!
Just read a tragic comment from a Russian TV commentator “What is the point of the world if Russia is not in it?”
I’m sure diverse working people of the world call for Peace.
Let’s give peace a chance.
And stop all the wars all over the world.
(5 countries were bombed last night in different military campaigns not including US drone attacks in Pakistan and Afghanistan).
Re Ukraine Let’s Return To Minsk 2!
Let’s build a new world security system.
We want our World Back with everyone in it.
Yours In Peace.
Bazza – Oh dear, whilst the sensible people were pushing for Putin not to invade Ukraine.
Well THAT would have been simple enough to resolve
I mean the US weren’t very happy about Cuba….. Does it only work one way then?
As for trust, think Weapons of Mass Destruction! How many have died based on that falsehood?
Allan – It’s quite simple, Putin had no justification for invading Ukraine. If you think differently then you are even more stupid than I thought you were.
…Putin had no justification for invading Ukraine. If you think differently then you are even more stupid than I thought you were…
You really are a stupid little man. No better than Sir Azov Sturmer and his NATO are the same as the NHS. (NHS is here to save lives…)
This mess had been going on for thirty years. The Russians swallowed two NATO expansions prior to the attempt with Ukraine (Romania etc first, and then the Baltic’s), at the third attempt, the Russians said quite clearly “That’s not going to happen”
Since then, in the last 8 years, the Ukraine failed to meet it’s commitments with Minsk and both France and Germany did bugger all to enforce it (you heard that Germany is out to build a big army, remind us how that panned out last time…)
I’m honestly surprised they waited this long. Meanwhile, racism is clearly in show in the Ukraine. Who wants to ally with that?
Regardless of how it pans out, I’m expecting a lot of death and misery across Europe. Using a semi educated guess, Germany will be the scapegoat.
I told you all before…
START STOCKING UP ON FOOD BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!
NVLA – You seem to be a little confused.
I seem to be confused…
So there’s nothing in the way of rebuttal… Nothing about Azov Sturmer and his NHS/NATO shenanigans and nothing about how this all started.
A sad little man, with nothing relevant to add. Now, be quiet because the adults are talking.
Recommend to Skwawkbox readers: John Pilger’s ‘War in Europe and Raw Propaganda’ (27/2/22) and ‘Natoland’ (New Left Review Blog, Sidecar).
Pippa Crerrar has tweeted after she was toldabout this video’s age that it is from 2014. Sge did this on the 27th.