Messages so crass it’s hard to believe they’re not photoshopped
Comment
Saturday’s march for a so-called “people’s vote” turned up a number of pearls that spoke volumes about the nature of the campaign – placards genuinely carried by protesters that were so crass that they almost beggared belief, yet seemed not to be self-mocking or ironic.
My dog won’t be able to come skiiing
Those who’ve criticised the ‘middle class problems’ nature of much of the campaign have mocked the risk of quinoa shortages or a few pounds extra for a visa to visit a second home in Tuscany. But even they might have struggled to come up with a complaint that someone’s dog won’t be able to accompany them on a skiing holiday. But if you thought you couldn’t make it up, you’d be wrong – someone did:
Pride and… condescension
Many have observed the ‘PV’ campaign seems to have learned nothing from remain’s loss in 2016 and is operating on the same or an even higher level of condescension toward leave voters – and that writing them off as racists or stupid may not be the best strategy for winning them to a different vote that if there was a new referendum. Many placards and banners underscored this perception – not least this one:
The religiously offensive
Several Roman Catholic readers have told the SKWAWKBOX that they found this mockery of their religion offensive:
Middle class problems – or mocking chavs?
While ‘my dog can’t come skiing with me’ might be the winner in this category, it would be run close by ‘my Gucci wear will cost more’ – or perhaps it’s a condescending comment about ‘chavs’. Either way, it’s unseemly:
The condescending self-own
This one manages a hat-trick: condescending and arrogant toward leave voters – and a complete ‘self-own’:
If you’re going to mock someone’s grammar, it’s always a good idea to check you get your own right when you do it. In the sentences above, “Look” shouldn’t have a capital letter – while “grammatically” should. Oh dear.
The simply vile
No words.
The complete cringe
This one involves no visible placards, but it’s worth seeing. There’s no better way to say ‘stop Brexit’ than to change the words of an almost-century-old song and then sing it badly. Apparently:
SKWAWKBOX comment:
Whether you favour leave or remain, surely no one with a concern for the millions suffering under the Tories – or even for basic manners – would want to identify with some of the attitudes portrayed by these messages.
The attitude behind them speaks volumes about much of the ‘PV’ and ‘stop Brexit’ campaign.
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You can’t be serious,
So you think it’s an OK thing to do to collectively impugn everyone on the protest just because out of a march of well over 1.000,000 people you’ve managed to extract a few banners to either poke fun at or generate a bit of faux outrage about. Quite frankly the only one I find offensive is the MJ one.
It all looks a bit desperate.
No, it is telling it like it is, this was the revolt of the revolting anti-democratic middle classes who have been doing their best to spit in the face of working class people (who voted overwhelmingly to leave the neo-liberal EU) for nearly 3 years after we voted the ‘wrong’ way against the instructions of our ‘better educated’ Waitrose cardholder masters.
It doesn’t surprise me that some trendy socialists are backing this nonsense as you usually find that they share the same social class as these protesters, but don’t for one minute think that working class socialists will be backing this reactionary attempt to maintain the status quo and which would then prevent a future socialist Labour government from implementing its key manifesto areas around nationalisation, state aid and deficit spending that would all be prevented by EU law.
“this was the revolt of the revolting anti-democratic middle classes”
I love this sort of self-destruct button amongst the not-the-Edinburgh Fringe.
We’ve already had lots of virtue signalling on the back of the ‘working class’ chant from the effete pseudo-Marxists of the Wolfie tendency.
We now have reached the absurd fantasy that half the nation is ‘anti-democratic’ if they disagree with a minority pursuit.
It’s interesting that these class warriors have no idea what the concept of ‘class’ means.
James Martin 25/03/2019 at 9:48
Well I guess that we are all entitled to an opinion even if it is a minority one amongst both Labour members and voters. The strength of the party is derived from it being a ‘broad church’.
Just had a thought. As both Marx and Engels, amongst many others, were ‘middle class’ and Hitler wasn’t, should we revise our political judgment to fit this fact?
52% to 48% – a win based on a package of lies from rich Tory boys, is not a healthy democracy but a mixture of angry left behinds who just wanted to punch someone and a populist mirage.
You are spot on as usual Steve H.
Although I am very much in favour of a General Election rather than a refferendum the marchers on Saturday are to be commended for the peaceful manner in which they protested. For such a huge number of people there appears to have been a negligable number of arrests for bad behavior if indeed there were any at all. Given the times that we live in where political violence and threats seem to becoming the norm (or so we are told) Saturday’s event was remarkable.
Complaining about the wording on a few of the posters carried by the protesters in that context is a bit wet. I too found a few of the posters to be a bit inappropriate but at least they weren’t threaterning violence and the people carrying them weren’t hitting anyone with them. There are always a few misguided attempts at a sense of humour on these occasions but that’s no reason to completely lose yours
Their civilised bahavior is certainly a marked contrast from various ERG types making vailed hints at ‘civil disturbance’ if they don’t get their own way.
The Guardian comments have been full of open threats of civil disturbance for a couple of years.
I’ve often commented here about the middle class predominance of remain fanatics only to be called out by you and your brother as some kind of backwards idiot who is clinging to the 1970s. Those placards wholely vindicate me.
I’m left with a feeling of utter repulsion after viewing those snapshots of middle class selfishness and loathing.
lundiel 25/03/2019 at 8:15 am · ·
Really ?
Oddly I haven’t noticed you complain about this predominance of threats of civil-disorder from Remainers in the past. In view of what you say it is rather strange that as far as I’m aware there were no disturbances throughout Saturday’s demonstration.
I’m intrigued to see some examples of this threatened violence from Remain supporters so perhaps you could provide some links to examples of these Guardian comments.
I have highlighted this problem on this blog on a number of occasions. Read this bitter, angry character’s back comments for starters. then read the replies. Knock yourself out, there’s reams of angry nonsense to get through with a few gems along the way.
https://profile.theguardian.com/user/id/12992447?page=1
It usually goes something like: “While I don’t condone violence myself, I fully expect it to happen if we don’t get PV etc”. There are loads of bitter angry nutters writing in the Guardian and the Independent, you must be aware of this as they are your sort of reading. Also, trying to tie me up in this conversation is not very clever and shows the level of spite with which you attack the opposition….you’d love me to libel someone and hope that I’ll make a fool of myself.
I will not be answering your baited questions again. Just accept that I have not come here to lie.
lundiel 25/03/2019 at 8:59 am
I had high expectations, this is the first time ever that you’ve provided any evidence to me that proports to back up your assertions.
Well I read through the first 5 pages of his comments and quite frankly I can’t see anything to be concerned about. There are no threats of violence and the only references (2) to civil disorder are an expression of a fear of the possibility if it all goes tits-up along with a condemnation of violence.
Yes he does have a rather robust style of expressing how pissed off he is by what he perceives as prevarication and inaction by JC over Brexit. He obviously feels let down, but I’m simply can’t see anything threatening about his posts.
Is that really what all the faux outrage above was about?
Mmmm … I too had a quick look for these incendiary posts.
Like the socialist Lexit paradise they … err … are a figment of a vivid imagination.
Exactly. I try and ignore Lundiel.
Challenge me if you don’t like what I write, don’t make snide comments to others.
lundiel 25/03/2019 at 4:16 pm
I did, I asked you for some examples and you were unable to supply anything of substance. You could give it another go if you can manage to come up with something meaningful this time.
I was addressing the poetry person not you.
lundiel 25/03/2019 at 5:15 pm · ·
Unfortunately the notification email I received clearly stated your comment was directed at me. However you are more than welcome to respond to the message I inadvertently sent you because of your error.
Euwwww!!! Now that’s flummoxed you.
Oh dear. I’ve already told your brother I won’t be answering his questions any more, nothing has “flummoxed me”. With regard to the example I supplied, I don’t read his ranting, or the Guardian for that matter, but I have seen comments made by him that openly predict insurrection if there.isn’t a second vote….they are there, you just have to trawl through acres of angry lunacy to find them. Good luck and goodbye.
lundiel 25/03/2019 at 5:46 pm · ·
“Oh dear. I’ve already told your brother”
I don’t have a brother who posts on this site.
” With regard to the example I supplied, I don’t read his ranting, or the Guardian for that matter, but I have seen comments made by him that openly predict insurrection if there isn’t a second vote”
That is not the impression you gave in your original reply. You’re f..ing priceless you are mate.
“Just accept that I have not come here to lie.” Self evidently everyone would be unwise to take anything you say at face value
I used to read the Guardian before it became remain central and the character I provided a link to remained in my memory forever because of his threats and angry ranting style. I’m not alone in my thinking, we all know about the Wetherspoons tropes of thick ignorant racists who didn’t know what they were voting for.
I am not your mate. I am a Socialist woman and your method of questioning things that have no real value to the debate other than to cast doubt on my credibility while never addressing any economic or political problems facing the EU or our continued membership says everything anyone needs to know about your agenda.
lundiel 25/03/2019 at 7:35 pm
The only person that brings your credibility into question is yourself.
As for my agenda, as you term it, I doubt that is a mystery to anyone on this site. I have always been quite clear that I want to remain in the EU just like the vast majority of Labour Party members and voters do, it’s you (not me) that is in the minority as far as the opinions of Labour supporters are concerned. However there are lots and lots of Tory voters who would agree with you on Brexit, the polls are quite conclusive on this.
Surely the term ‘mate’ is gender neutral.
Ignore them, lundiel. You’re one of the best (and funniest) commenters on here.
As for the placards, as you and Skwawkbox correctly point out, they illustrate what a bunch of bourgeois scum knobheads they are and we ought to be embarrassed to have them in the party!
Those of them that are in the party, that is…
timfrom 26/03/2019 at 5:26 pm
timfrom 26/03/2019 at 5:26 pm
Ooops – that went wrong
Perhaps you could elaborate as ‘meaning’ of your comment is a little obscure.
Also the police did not attack any demonstrators or kettle them.
Sorry Skwawkbox, I’m with Albert and Steve on this one.
The placards say nothing about the campaign and almost nothing about the people who made them & carried them.
People just like to make up funny stuff – and there’s never been a joke that somebody didn’t find offensive.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/50/0c/50/500c50b551a897f18388b01ef92a46cd.jpg
I’m a regular Skwawkbox reader, but this is hugely disappointing.
This isn’t news – this is just a desperate smear. Please don’t lower yourselves to MSM tactics.
Pathetic Skwawk, absolutely pathetic.
All except the Jackson placard are common middle-class tropes that expose the selfish, frivolous nature of their resentment over the Brexit vote. No wonder there is such condemnation from remain supporters here. You love to label us but don’t like it one bit when your own behaviour and lack of critical judgement is highlighted.
” the selfish, frivolous nature of their resentment”
Mmmm … I think that hat better fits the dilettante scions of an imagined ‘working class’ playing at politics detached from the real consequences.
WTF are you on about. You don’t know me and to label me a ‘dilettante’ and imaginary working class is a lie and shows your rudeness and contempt. I live in a tower block and pay rate A council tax. I’ve worked hard all my life and am solid working class unlike the liberals posting here.
That’s OK, lundiel. I don’t have any simplistic class prejudice. You are as entitled to have daft ideas as any member of the Bullingdon Club in my view.
But (talking about labelling), just like them, you just don’t get any bonus points for being a member of a particular social category.
Lundiel, get a life. No-one is after you or attacking you for your views. A piece of advice is go and read up on Marx and Engels, despite them having been well educated and shock horror middle class, and then read up on Weimarer Republic, German history of the 1920s and 1930s (fascism that is), and maybe you might consider why many of us, especially us pesky foreigners, value the EU concept. We are not uncritical hence we want to reform and remain, which is actually a view shared with TSSA and other organisations.
C’mon now, Sabine : Repeat after me ‘Working Class – GOOD. Middle Class – BAD’
Got it?? OK Now you can talk politics.
Have any of you commenters upset by this article been on other marches? As a veteran of anti-war/pro Palestine/anti-austerity marches I am quite used to the depths the MSM go to to represent marchers as dangerous ‘anarchists’, extremists and thugs. One of the things that rile me more than anything with this march (Albert Swift) and the post Trump election Womens Marches is the reporting of them as ‘peaceful’ and ‘minimal – if any – arrests’. Well that’s true of most marches. The difference between this march and the ones I have been on is the reporting from the MSM. If Skawkbox and social media seek to redress the balance by calling out some inappropriate banners I’m all for it!
“Have any of you commenters upset by this article been on other marches?”
Yes.
… and this isn’t supposed to be the MSM, despite these distortions and use of dishonest MSM techniques.
So having a sense of humour is ‘inappropriate’?
You make socialism sound extremely undesirable.
I’ve not seen socialism mentioned anywhere here. Old, boring ad hominem attack. I’m a nice middle class, middle aged woman with a BBC accent to boot. I’m almost tempted to think someone like me, (or even me?) infiltrated the march to give it a bad name!
Oh, and for the record, I voted Remain and have no problem with the march in principle. A little self-awareness from some of the participants would go a long way though.
As for not sinking to the depths of the MSM, surely alternative media sites like this one serve nothing if they don’t try to redress the balance of the MSM?
“try to redress the balance of the MSM?”
That can only be done by using a different paradigm – not the opposite but equal propaganda approach.
Humour is at times the thing that keeps you sane and stable.
Yes, I attended my very first march aged 14 3/4 years of age – in respect of the murder of Che Guevara, followed by anti Vietnam marches, civil rights – Angela Davis, anti-emergency law protests in Germany, we organised a town wide school strike, necessary because of acute lack of teachers and also against barring left-wing people from teaching. Are these enough examples?
Yes Sabine. Plenty of examples. But I wasn’t speaking about you – because you turned up after my comment was made
. Still – fair play on your commitment!!
Gosh, the pro-EU campaign is based on snobbery and hatred of working class people. What a shocker – after the way the working class have suffered Europe-wide in the single market over the last 40 years! After all the EEC was basically created to defeat European socialism.
Unfortunately the Labour Left are not as pro-working class as once they were, as shown by comrades’ comments.
https://www.thefullbrexit.com/why-does-the-british-left-love-the-
The outraged reactions on here have been priceless. The outrage is of course because some of these trendies have been forced to look in a mirror when the class basis of that anti-democratic ‘peoples vote’ protest march is pointed out but then they refuse to accept the reflection is their own.
Just how many of the left became such reactionary liberals and Blairites in relation to the EU is an interesting story, but it shows the dangers we face as these will be the first people to abandon Corbyn and move further to the right under a ‘soft’ left unity candidate that will be primed to follow him. I lived and fought through it with Tony Benn in the 80s and 90s and there were so few of us that stayed true to the socialist flame (Corbyn was one) after the moves to the right under Kinnock and Blair that I feared we would never rise again. So I don’t want to let the liberals in our ranks sink us now.
Thanks for the laugh – even if it’s not quite good enough for the other Fringe. The accusation of ‘reactionary’ from someone aligning himself, not only with *Tory* policies, but the policies advocated by the hedge fund brigade of JRM, Mr Toad, IDS, Farrage, Redwood … etc. … etc.
Priceless!
“the moves to the right under Kinnock and Blair that I feared we would never rise again”
… which (and, to be generous – inadvertently. I hope) you are helping on its way by alienating potential Labour votes.
One of the worst articles I’ve ever seen from Skwarwkbox, a display of pettiness and a distain for the democracy which the marchers were supporting.
Democracy? Didn’t we(Remain, for which side I voted) lose the referendum? What’s democratic about demanding a rerun because it didn’t suit the marcher’s point of view?
If it had any roots in democracy, why were people like Campbell & Watson there?
” Didn’t we(Remain, for which side I voted) lose the referendum? ”
No. Only 37% voted to leave the EU; and that was three years ago – after a referendum that excluded sections of the relevant population, was manipulated by right wing propaganda and fraud.
Time for a proper one.
Signor tbf. If your view of a democracy is one where no one is allowed to change their mind when they have reviewed the consequences of a decision they made, then count me out.
Demos Kratos… Not seeing much of it below the line here…
I appreciate your frustration remain voters, but don’t drop to Campbell’s level. 37%…Fact is, for every 1000 who votes remain, 1074 voted out. Auee, it’s close, but MPs voted to honour the results (because they are out of touch with reality).
If you try to re-run the referendum, you’re deny democracy. There will be a cost, from civil disbdisobedi through to losing again and having to listen to “We told you so” (Can see a lot of middle class deniers having strokes over that…)
Want to overturn the results, then allow them to pass first, otherwise it’s game over…
You’ll have to forgive me for not giving a rodents furry crack about a terrier not being able to go skiing or Gucci becoming more expensive
Jack T, you’re full of shit. Plus, it’s “disdain” and there’s no “r” in Skwawkbox!
Not even thin gruel – more a bowl of urine. Just incontinence..
Hang on. Let’s be virtuous :
“Working Class. Hurray!! Middle Class. Booo!!”
Will that do for intelligent political campaigning and ‘socialist theory”??
RH, you are a naughty one, giggles to herself….. Question here – seriously: how does the british model of classes (lower upper lower, middle upper middle upper classes, those with fancy titles) fit into the marxist definition where we have working class, ie all that have to sell their labour to the capitalists in order to survive…? My view is that those classes categories were created to split, divide and rule those that need to sell their labour to live. Looking forward to some replies.
That’s the point. Marx had a concept of class that was an economic and political definition, and was rooted in 19th century society.
That concept (and it is only a concept) is different from the varying instrumental classifications of economic and cultural status developed as a sociological framework of analysis over the intervening period.
Of course, there is a loose relationship, but mickey-mouse left-wing politics short-circuits the separate concepts and fails to address the changing nature of capitalist society (basically because it’s a bit difficult).
Thus we get the crass stupidities of class typifications sometimes seen in this blog – resulting in a sort political paralysis (locked in fantasy) rather than analysis.
Crikey, this takes me back to the 80s, when Militant’s greatest crime was not having a sense of humour. That’s why they failed.
Get out more.
If you can’t see the funny side of Brexit, it’s all tragedy.
They didn’t fail because of a lack of that sense of humour – more because they were an absurd fringe detached from the vast majority of the Labour Party.
… but perhaps you had to seriously lack a sense of humour and the absurd to be a member of the parody faction:-)
This is a shame. Much of the stuff you do is good, but to try to characterise a 2 million person march by a handful of jokey placards is sub-tabloid. Raise your game.
TWO million, now is it?
According to whom? Not heard that one before.
“I moved here (?) years ago with the idea of free movement of people and that I could go anywhere in Europe that I wanted,” is a common theme of the many, many Europeans who were bussed in to Saturday’s march. It’s the lack of irony or any consideration of the meaning behind those words that hurts. Many people, born here, don’t even have passports. Why is that, you don’t ask, or even think…..It’s because they don’t have jobs, or all their money is tied up in rent and living costs and membership of the EU didn’t raise them out of that, it compounded it.
It wasn’t the EU that inflicted these depredations on the poor. It was right-wing governments, supported by a hefty chunk of working class voters to push the Tories over the line. (I point that out just to dispel easy mythical generqalisations about the nature of class and the relationship to progressive social policies).
It is an accepted fact that free movement has had social consequences.
Lundiel, I was not bussed in against my will. I went and booked a seat on a coach. Actually for many European it is a legal requirement to either have a passport – better when traveling- or an ID card. And we have to pay for it too. A driver’s license does not do the trick like here. A countries’ internal politics are nothing the EU can influence or interfere with.
Interesting to watch how the ‘Great March’ was covered by the BBC. Days B4 it was announced by ‘Auntie’ that it was taking place & throughout the day it featured in news bulletins. The Beeb seldom, if ever, cover any form of protest march until after the event. What a great photo op to watch Jeremy marching with Tom; Chukka; Luciana & Margaret. Join your chums.
Wasn’t Jeremy elsewhere?
Yes.
He was doing some serious campaigning for the upcoming local elections.
Sorry Jenny, yes he was, but some Remainers have criticised Jeremy for not joining the ‘Great March’ & for some reason he decided it would not be such a great idea. Personally, I would have liked the opportunity to shake Chukka by the………………..
steve richards
You can bet the people criticising Corbyn for not being there to share a stage with Tom Watson were the same ones who criticised him for walking out of that meeting when he realised Chukka was invited too.
They must think he should WANT to abase himself or something!
I seriously worry that Skwawkbox is becoming so cynically pro Leave that it can no longer be considered objective. I did not join Saturday’s march, but I am a very committed remain supporter. No, this is not because I view all Leave supporters as bigoted idiots. I thought that the 2016 referendum was grotesquely unfair in its exclusion of those who would be impacted the most by the decision including our expats and EU citizens who have contributed so much to this country. Most notably I was deeply concerned about the callous exclusion of our young people whose future will be a whole lot more limited and bleak due to this reckless decision to leave the EU.
As someone who is no longer particularly young, but who led an exciting life full of travel and opportunities, I cannot condone the way we are disregarding the next generation. When I left home for the continent at 17 as a not quite emancipated minor, I was too young to buy a Youth Hostel card without parental consent. I had no other choice but to rough it at campsites minus the luxury of a ground mat or a tent! That was before the UK joined the EU when travel and working in the EU was not quite as easy as it is today. I worked on yachts, but my adventures were certainly not any well funded luxury experience.
If I had stayed in England, even as a dyslexic high school drop out, I could have managed to find a full time job and live on my own in a bedsit. Today’s young people have fewer opportunities and zero safety net if they are abandoned at a young age. All too often they must stay trapped unable to leave home until they turn thirty. The freedom to travel, live and work anywhere in the EU could be denied in future and this is what we cannot do to our young people. I can live with a few odd signs from those who might or might not enjoy privilage.
As a Green Party member I agree that the most urgent priority is a General Election to oust this toxic Tory government and it is too early to consider another referendum. There is little point in a “Peoples Vote” until there is a fully formed legitimate plan for the future that is ready for implementation. May’s botched “deal” leaves everything still to be worked out under Tory rule. Calling a referendum and proceeding without a plan was one of the many serious mistakes with the 2016 referendum. I do not denigrate those who voted Leave as the chaos we are in right now is proof positive that no one knew what the were really voting for last time around.
It is not insulting to point out that we were not fully informed regarding the referendum decision and its most devastating consequences back in 2016. Article 50 should not have been triggered prematurely without any consensus on how to interpret the result. The so called “Will of the People” has been hijacked and manipulated ever since. If there is a General Election and Labour take control of the situation, they should create two cross party committees, with proper regional representation, to formulate a workable negotiating plan, not just for leaving, but for what might persuade the UK to remain in the EU. That would present a legitimate choice for the public to have a Final Say ratification vote on.
Right now there is a serious danger of crashing out of the EU accidentally with no deal in place at all. We must revoke Article 50 and prepare to negotiate responsibly for the common good. It is totally within the power of the UK to unilaterally make this decision. I am seriously alarmed that Skwawkbox has not commented at all on the massive petition to revoke Article 50; even if this was just a temporary safety measure to allow the country to stabilize it makes perfect sense.
Fast approaching five and a half million people have already signed this huge petition and not a solitary squeak from the Skwawk! A blanket avoidance of this rapidly growing petition with a “nothing to see here” attitude is not the normal response we have come to expect from the Skwawkbox. This is not just the elephant in the room it is an entire rampaging heard of elephants putting the Skwawkbox team to shame! Please help promote this petition as the only logical choice to extricate the UK from the serious danger of an accidental no deal crash out of the EU that would harm us all. GO TO:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584
A final say vote must include 16 and 17 year old’s as well as expats and those from the EU who have lived and worked here for a reasonable number of years or who have family connections that should have given them the right to vote last time. Young people must be allowed to decide their future; I do not want to be among those to deny them this chance. This is why a Final Say vote is so important.
Our Green Party MP, Caroline Lucas, was one speaker at the march on Saturday who I greatly admire. Giving voice to the decisions we all collectively took at conference, she is not a toxic disruptor as you have blanket labeled all of those who participated. This latest focus on a few wacky signs among the huge crowd who marched for a cause they still fervently believe in for diverse reasons was a real insult to democratic expression. Skwawkbox could do better.
Thanks for expressing your opinion so eloquently.
Ditto. A thoughtful analysis and narration of experience.
You are right about many things, but I think you put your finger on a particular point that is often missed – that the need to revoke Article 50 is a necessary prelude to *any* serious consideration of the issues within an appropriate timescale.
It is obvious that the country is seriously split right down the middle, that the last referendum was an insult to real process, and that the issues are only just being understood.
The previous exclusion of major relevant sections of the population from the consideration of those issues is a travesty that needs to be addressed. The idea that the referendum has some sanctity is, of course, total nonsense, and the withdrawal of Article 50 is simply the only sensible course of action as the first step in untangling this unholy mess.
“Green Party member” – you gave yourself away there. I follow Skawkbox because it is a great news source for Labour Party members and other socialists – the Green Party is a petty-bourgeois diversion serving the interests of the British ruling class and imperialism.
I was destitute at 17 so not a member of “the British ruling class.” The traveling I have done has informed my strong negative opinion on British imperialism and the continuation of toxic UK foreign policy under Labour. That is why I vote Green.
I support Jeremy Corbyn and his anti austerity agenda. Labour is moving in the direction of Green Party policy and that gives me hope for the future. Your blanket assumptions and labeling is totally inappropriate and rather insulting..
Don’t take it seriously, Kim. It’s playground pretend politics.
Talk about prejudices and assumptions….. You should apologise to Kim Sanders Fisher.
Why are you posting this stuff here? It has nothing to do with anything other than your reverence for Caroline Lucas and the need to post a massive load of tosh.
lundiel 25/03/2019 at 3:16 pm
Who appointed you as gatekeeper.
You constantly whinge about other posters being impolite towards you but have you ever considered that you being so unpleasant towards so many others nay be a contributory factor.
Err, because this is supposed to be a left wing, pro Corbyn blog, not a Liberal/Green remain supporting blog.
lundiel 25/03/2019 at 3:59 pm · ·
Err, because this is supposed to be a left wing, pro Corbyn blog,
Firstly that isn’t an answer to my query about your habitual unpleasantness to others and secondly where does it say that.
” this is supposed to be a left wing, pro Corbyn blog, not a Liberal/Green remain supporting blog.”
… you mean a dark onanistic echo chamber?
… or can it communicate with the wider world?
A colourful turnout on Saturday: very big on yellow stars; not so much on yellow vests; very big on blue flags, not so much on red ones. It was IKEA minus the meatballs or “the longest queue in the history of Waitrose,” as a friend dubbed it. Humour aside, another friend was more analytical: we’d been discussing what Greek pensioners might have thought of these placards: “at times of sharpened political struggle,” he said,” the difference between revolutionary socialists and reformists, even the most Left variety, begins to show. The well intentioned socialists who support this Trojan horse should be careful what they wish for. If we’re still in the EU when the general election comes these placards could well be replaced with those of the far Right.”
“The longest queue in the history of Waitrose” – Perfect!
I thought the march neatly characterised where the ‘Remain’ message has failed.
Two years and 33,000 organisations – with no leader. Not one single charismatic figure, let alone an elected leader.
And a march calling for a new vote, while 99.9% of the marchers really wanted to campaign for ‘revoke & remain’.
Of course they mostly knew, I’m sure, that there won’t be another vote, and zero chance of revoke or remain.
Most Remainers I know have long recognised that it’s all over. We’ve had May dancing, all we’re really waiting for is for her to sing.
The main target of PV is Corbyn and the possibility of socialism in Britain – I amazed that people fall for it. You’d think that Watson, Cable and Soubry turning out alongside Heseltine for a Campbell-Blair witch project would sound an alarm bell.
‘Revolutionary socialists’. Now – they’ve got a good record in terms of social progress. 🙂
A Brief History of Those Who Made Their Point Politely And Then Went Home
By Kevin Higgins
On this day of tear-gas in Seoul
and windows broken at Dickins & Jones,
I can’t help wondering why a history
of those, who made their point politely
and then went home, has never been written.
Those who, in the heat of the moment,
never dislodged a policeman’s helmet,
never blocked the traffic or held the country to ransom.
Someone should ask them: “Was it all worth it?”
All those proud men and women, who never
had the National Guard sent in against them;
who left everything exactly as they found it,
without adding as much as a scratch to the paintwork;
who no-one bothered asking: “Are you or have you ever been?”,
because we all knew damn well they never ever were.
As you are so dismissive of the power of a peaceful protest march what do you advocate as an acceptable form of protest.
Stop asking stupid questions.
lundiel 25/03/2019 at 3:20 pm
That’s a rather silly and childish comment to make, if you think my question is inappropriate then you could at least have the courtesy to explain why.
I’ve told you any number of times, it’s your standard response. You never talk policy or economics, you always answer with a question. In the hope you can derail/sidetrack anything you don’t like.
lundiel 25/03/2019 at 4:05 pm · ·
I’ve told you any number of times, it’s your standard response. You never talk policy or economics, you always answer with a question. In the hope you can derail/sidetrack anything you don’t like.
You seem to be a little confused, it was me that was asking a question of another poster and you that butted in with your rather unhelpful and snide comment that contributed absolutely nothing to the conversation. I am quite happy to respond if you can explain why you thought my question was stupid or if you want to take a stab at answering my original query to labrebisgallois. The choice is yours.
SteveH, you really can be a conceited prick, y’know!
timfrom 26/03/2019 at 1:01 pm
They do say it takes one to know one
Now that we’ve got past the silly play ground insults perhaps we can address the actual question I was attacked for posing
As you are so dismissive of the power of a peaceful protest march what do you advocate as an acceptable form of protest?
Can you explain why it is wrong or stupid to ask this question?
It does make one wonder why ‘labrebisgalloise’ hasn’t answered this question yet.
Well I guess something a little more forceful is called for to get the goverment’s attention. The French are currently providing a vivid example to us, should we choose to follow it. Shedding blood, getting life-changing injuries.
They mean it, maaan! (J Rotten)
I mean the million who marched against the Iraq war made fuck-all difference, so why do you imagine this will be any different?
I’m not sure a re-run of the poll-tax riots of 1990 would be effective in today’s social context, it’s just not the same as it was back then. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaQhg7Vsfbg Also it was 9 months later before the announcement of the poll-tax repeal.
I hoping the difference will be that May and her party are terminally weak, she doesn’t even have a majority, whilst Blair was on a high with an unassailable majority of 167.
Great poem. Thanks, labre!
That Michael Jackson placard was unbelievably crass and cringe-making. The rest were OK -I did not even mind the soppy one about the skiing dog from a young woman. Both of them from Putney probably. But don’t attack people for middle class pastimes (lucky them) when so many people are breadlining, because we have to reach out, and it is the case some younger people are just beginning to .become politically aware. Best to emphasise that this is a Tory F***-Up through and through from Day 1 when Cameron first thought of the Referendum to ensure 15 UKIP seats would not be lost. The Brexit supporting people on Skwawkvbox comments are , I find, very dogmatic and eager to point the finger at middle classness. i.e. We have one of the largest CLP’s in the South East for example here in Hastings and Rye, and a socialist PPC standing against the incumbent Amber Rudd, who stripped her majority in 2017 from over 4000 to 346. It will be harder next time because the Greens stood down in our favour in 2017. But we are, nonetheless, a top marginal now.The membership here quadrupled when Corbyn became leader. The vast majority of activists in the CLP are middle class,a lot of older pensioners, or people in their 60s at least who have been working for a socialist Government for decades and almost gave up until Corbyn. Most are very generous with the little money they do have, although tend not to ahve very much and that is why thery live here,butare middle class nonetheless by virtue of education and former jobs ( retired teachers for example). Hastings and Rye voted Leave in 2016. Vast majority of the Corbyn supporting CLP are Remainers! Many Brexiters locally have changed their views now. Interestingly, those those who haven’t tend to be angry populists who want a hard brexit , have not a clue what that will mean, and are racists whose ambitions include closing down the local Mosque. That is the truth of it.
” The vast majority of activists in the CLP are middle class,a lot of older pensioners, or people in their 60s at least who have been working for a socialist Government for decades and almost gave up until Corbyn.”
Thanks for some sense and contact with reality. The illiterate generalisations about class from those dilettantes who would struggle with ‘Wolfie’s Marxism for Dummies’ are stupidly tedious. Not to say counterproductive in terms of serious political activism (as opposed to dilettante virtue-signalling – a sort of mirror image of the right wing scammers who pretend to opposing antisemitism).
I have too short a remaining time allotted to have patience with that sort of self-indulgent unserious crap.
“The illiterate generalisations about class from those dilettantes who would struggle with ‘Wolfie’s Marxism for Dummies’ are stupidly tedious.”
WOW!
If the Wolfie cap fits ….
RH 25/03/2019 at 4:38 pm
You beat me to it.
I was born an raised in Hastings so it is good to hear there is a will to rid the community of Amber Rudd. I think the Fishing rights was a big issue in Hastings. The locals who support Nigel should question how many times he bothered to attend the EU committee on fishing where he could have defended their rights.
The Greens are really pragmatic and will stand aside if they think it is necessary to oust a Tory from a marginal seat. Progressive voters have to make the best of our FPTP system that is not very democratic. I would like to see Labour ditch Trident and other outdated policies; if anything Greens are further to the left. We can achieve a lot more by working together.
While there are very real problems with the EU I am still in favour of remain and reform. No one should be so easily fooled by super rich Tories faining interest in lowering the cost of footwear… Brexit will be manipulated to totally destroy workers rights and impoverish the many if the Tories get their way. EU workers have rights, but the workers who will be shipped in on short term visas will have very few; the Tories will destroy that level playing field to keep wages low.
As an older voter I feel compelled to focus my efforts in getting all young people to register to vote and not give up fighting for a more equal society where they have genuine opportunities in their future. I am sorry that my generation has totally screwed them.
The fishing issue that you mention is a classic of Brexit incomprehension. I’m no expert, but a bit of digging reveals that the ‘poor British fishermen’ trope is a load of toss – as is the idea that Brexit will put things to rights.
Farage’s dishonesty is but the icing on the deceptive cake.
Sorry if this has already been said, but I simply haven’t the patience or time available to read the usual drivel from our resident pro EU Trolls all over this thread .
More significant than daft banners by privileged upper middle class tossers on the march, is the analysis by Wired and The New Statesman and others , see, https://www.wired.co.uk/article/brexit-march-peoples-vote-crowd-size
The march was around 400,000 people at most , NOT the one million (or even TWO million claimed by the overheated on social media !) . The mass media generally have been happy to just accept the bogus claim of Alistair Campbell for the PV Campaign that it was “one million” . Middle class self delusion runs amok
J Penny the march was in excess of 1 million people. It was bigger than the one last October.
Note how the Penney selectively quotes. The ‘Wired’ article debates the estimation of crowd numbers in semi-scientific terms. But, of course, this is a double edged sword,and the revision of the PV numbers, with an upper limit of about 600k is balanced by :
“On the same day as hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets of London, Nigel Farage appeared at the latest stop of his pro-Brexit March to Leave in Nottinghamshire. Organisers estimated 200 people attended.”
Mmmm … I guess the comparison is the key fact.
… and it is also interesting how the Guardianista New Statesman has suddenly become a journal of record for Penney.
Let’s face it – the key point is simply that there is no substantive majority in favour of Brexit. At it’s best – three years ago – it was favoured by 37% of the electorate.
It will be interesting to see how much support the Brexiteers protest attracts.
https://leaversofbritain.co.uk/events/brexit-rally-london/
Brexit Rally London
March 29, 2019
Friday, March 29, 2019
12:00 AM to 11:59 PM
Make your voice heard in Westminster!
Join Leave voters from across the UK making their stand against the dilution of our democracy.
Meet many Leavers of Britain from across the UK. Join with us at this meeting point.
Outside St James’s Park Station, Blue Boar, Tothill Street, Westminster, Midday.
Bring any signs with pro-Democracy messages.”
Would it be unreasonable to assume that this was originally planned as a ‘celebration’ rally?
At work. Unlike the middle class, I don’t get weekends off…
Why would anyone gloat over a political choice?
Young woman with skiing dog. Now I know why the 48% want to remain; about as good as it gets.
Probably the best video on brexit yet. Mr.Pie sums up both our flawed HoC and the reasons why many exit voters votes for leave.
Try to remember his list when you bitter remainers think of your lousy dog and other selfish losses
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-IL2XwSkFJQ
These are the facts of Brexit. None of the propaganda onslaught intended to change minds matters.
17.4million voted Leave : 16.1 voted Million Remain.
By Constituency 406 Leave : 242 Remain
By Constituency Party Lab-148 Leave : 84 Remain Con- 247 Leave : 80 Remain
By Region9 Leave : 3 Remain
BY MP 160 Leave : 486 Remain
The establishment is pro remain, the people voted otherwise.
Unfortunately, for you, all the polls and academic research indicate that the electorate has changed its mind. Even the poll commissioned and published by Leave Means Leave just a few days ago gives a result of Leave 39% Remain 45%. That’s 3 times the ‘decisive’ margin in the 2016 referendum, add to that the change in demographics and it is obvious that you’ve lost the argument (if you ever had one).
No wonder the Brexiteers are so petrified of a second referendum. Being scared of democracy is not a good look.
Middle class hypocrisy at it’s finest.
If you believe in democracy, you’d respect the vote.
You’re more bothered about your terriers skiing trip.
Oh, and for the record (because you don’t like facts)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-poll-brexit-remain-vote-leave-live-latest-who-will-win-results-populus-a7097261.html
“Middle class hypocrisy” – a phrase that is also always redolent of the faker and ERG supporter.
ERG supporter…I’ve no time for the Moggerf*+#er and his cling ons.
I’m a supporter of lexit. The EU is a lobbyists dream, where they often receive €10,000 a month in various perks from fascists, sorry, corporatists.
What’s you knowledge of Walter Hallstein?
Never voting labour again 9:25 pm
None of what you say alters either the figures revealed in this poll or the fact that your Lexit dream is totally and utterly dependant on the ERG and their backers.
Strange bedfellows sure. But that’s how it goes in our corrupt politics. Not like I have any choice either, is it?
Remainers are having to rely on MPs they’d never vote for too. Soubry?
The only ones to benefit from Brexit are the establishment elite whose wealth will be greatly increased. Everyone else, middle class or working class, will suffer. Divide and rule works so well. How can any socialist dismiss a demo 1m strong?
Yes. It seems so obvious to anyone with their head in gear., doesn’t it?
Incorrect.
Minimum wage jobs are already seeing their wages rise and their conditions improve. ZHCs are starting to dry up, and jobs are becoming easier to find.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12181385/Wages-for-British-workers-will-rise-in-the-event-of-a-Brexit-head-of-in-campaign-says.html
For the record, he wasn’t telling them like it’s a good thing. But it is for million on the breadline
Why on earth attack the middle classes now? Everything has changed. In times past the middle class looked up to the upper middle class who were only a little down from the elite upper classes and all voted Tory. Now the middle class has almost ceased to exist as their children grow up as wage slave commuters relying on state services like everyone else. Everyone is in the same boat and suffering from Tory austerity – we must not fall in to the trap of divide and rule.
I agree that attacking the middle classes (or any other class) is pretty old hat in some ways, as the original class structure has all but broken down. But there are real divisions – and we all see them. The new divide for me, is exemplified by the comments on this thread and splits ‘progressives’ right down the middle.
It is between those who believe that the current system is fit for purpose (although many of those accept that it needs some reforming). They vote remain along with (lets face it) a lot of people who are only concerned with their own loss of privilege (as with the skiing dog placard that kicked this whole thing off). Some of my close friends seriously still believe that the Guardian is left wing and the BBC impartial.
On the other side are those who genuinely have nothing to lose, and those who stand in solidarity, believing that Brexit is just a symptom of a wider collapse in the Neo-Liberal order, and are desperate for more radical change.
As I stand on both sides of this split, I am genuinely agnostic about Brexit and wish the marchers well. In fact I find the chaos pretty entertaining. However I hate the memes laughing at the pro-Brexit marchers and lazy comments from the privileged classes accusing them of stupidity and racism.
The interesting thing for me (from observation of my own thoughts and the feelings of close friends on both sides) is how similar we are politically on all sorts of issues, and would all agree – for example – with much if not all of the Labour Party manifesto. We should be able to communicate across the divide because it is, in fact, so tiny, and yet we can’t!
Crossing this divide is, for me, where the work is.
Or rather, bridging this divide!
Jenny – You are missing the key point : that the referendum and Brexit *created* the divide as part of the Tory scam. Before then, the EU was not on the agenda for the vast majority of people.
The non-majority of the referendum made it an issue that posed a dichotomy, splitting the country down the middle. And a dichotomy has no bridge ir compromise, by definition.
This – apart from the internal party machinations – had one great advantage for the Tories. It diverted attention from Labour’s domestic agenda, which people do indeed share, and has done so ever since.
So the right of the Tory Party and their propaganda press have achieved two neoliberal ‘results’ in one.
As widely reported today – latest results
British Social Attitudes Survey
Remain 55%
Leave 45%
Only 6% believe we will get a good deal
Same as the morning of the referendum…
Well – let’s test the water with a proper, more representative vote.
. *That’s* democracy when you have a split vote and time has moved on. The frantic opposition to the one way out of this shit-fest is, I’m afraid a testimony to the probability that things have changed.
The idea that the referendum was a sacred tablet of stone is nonsense – at that rate, the last general election (similarly indecisive) would give us a Tory majority for ever, and the Labour Party would be ‘anti-democratic’.
RH, stop talking cobblers. If remain had won as predicted, you wouldn’t be wearing another crack of the whip either…
MPs voted to honour the results, the result was to leave.
I’ve never seen a general election re-ran because the results weren’t right first time
If a GE had as many irregularities as this referendum then the Election Commission would have had little choice but to cancel the result and re-run it. Unfortunately the same rules don’t apply to advisory referendums
Really SteveH…
So what about that Welsh call centre the Tories were using? And the media manipulation around May? The overspending? Up to 24 seats involved. The lady who got convicted, so the Tories had a “whip ”round” so she could have a nice holiday
The rules are different. Whether you choose to accept that or not is entirely up-to you, it won’t alter the facts.
I gave you a list of offences committed during the last election.
Tell me what happened to the tories? Tell me what happened to the seats…
I’m sure you will be more than happy to detail them for me, although how relevant your efforts will prove to be is debatable.
Never voting labour again 28/03/2019 at 6:30 pm
I am not being intentionally awkward, I just don’t see the point in discussing the side issues that you seem intent on diverting to. It is absolutely beyond doubt that the courts are unable to take any action to void the 2016 referendum. Over 200,000 (>two hundred thousand) people had petitioned the High Court to void the result because of illegal activity and the Supreme Court ruled on these petitions in December 2016. The Supreme Court judged that the EU referendum was not legally binding but advisory, so logically it cannot be ordered to be rerun by a court. The decision about whether to go back to the public after a advisory referendum is not a legal judgement; it is a political one.
I appreciate that it sounds ridiculous but it is what it is. If it had been any other type of election or referendum the court would have been able to act (they have in the past) even a Local Authority Referendum would have fallen under the rule of law but not the 2016 EU Referendum.
British Social Attitudes – The EU Debate
It is often claimed that attitudes towards Brexit have ‘polarised’. But what might be meant by that claim? It could simply mean that few people think that leaving the EU will not make much difference either way to Britain’s future. But it could also mean that support for leaving varies markedly by social background, sense of identity, or underlying values, as well as people’s perceptions of the consequences of Brexit. Or it could be that the country has divided into strongly committed ‘Remainers’ and strongly committed ‘Leavers’. This chapter assesses the evidence for each of these possibilities.
Spotlight
http://natcen.ac.uk/media/1717707/BSA36_The_EU_debate.pdf
The problem with that report, Steve, is that the data is already historical – a lot has happened since the start of the car crash – although some of the implications haven’t changed.
Fair comment , but that’s always going to be the case, it requires very little effort to contextualise it with current data.
As I had quoted from the report I thought the fair thing to do was publish a link to it, I always find it suspicious when people quote results (often out of context) and don’t post a link to the source, there is often a reason they don’t want you to see the rest of the data. Transparency is important.
“Transparency is important”
I’m with you on that. Obviously, there’s always a range of justifiable interpretation – but some data is more ‘interpreted’ than others – like the concept that a majority of ‘The People’ voted for Brexit. 🙂
Then there is the picking and choosing of what data is ‘valid’ (note the rather unstable preferences of Leavers with regard to poll findings)
In the end let the data stand.
The thing that prompted me to search out the Leave Means Leave sponsored poll was watching the LML spokesperson spout all sorts of pointless stats to support their cause but missing out the one vital result –
How people would vote in a 2nd referendum. The result was revealed in Table 35 of the poll – Remain 45% Leave 39%. I wonder why LML sought to bury this.
https://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Leave-Means-Leave_Brexit-Poll_March-2019_updated.pdf
Indeed.
Leave/Remain apart, my concern in terms of data is the moving average of polls – probably, in an imperfect world, the best statistical indicator of where things are in terms of the parties. would expect a coming downturn for the Tories and a corresponding uptick for Labour – but you’d have to be blind to think that Labour is in a good position.
… and we know what might make a positive difference.
We are a members led party?
I know that this strategy is supposed to be a part of a subtle, cunning and complex master plan but I do feel a bit less subtlety and a bit more clarity would be appreciated by the ordinary voter.At the moment they are baffled and turned off by what they see as prevarication. A clear and consistent message is vital in getting voters onside.
Government responds to A50 petition.
This response was given on 26 March 2019
This Government will not revoke Article 50. We will honour the result of the 2016 referendum and work with Parliament to deliver a deal that ensures we leave the European Union.
It remains the Government’s firm policy not to revoke Article 50. We will honour the outcome of the 2016 referendum and work to deliver an exit which benefits everyone, whether they voted to Leave or to Remain.
Revoking Article 50, and thereby remaining in the European Union, would undermine both our democracy and the trust that millions of voters have placed in Government.
The Government acknowledges the considerable number of people who have signed this petition. However, close to three quarters of the electorate took part in the 2016 referendum, trusting that the result would be respected. This Government wrote to every household prior to the referendum, promising that the outcome of the referendum would be implemented. 17.4 million people then voted to leave the European Union, providing the biggest democratic mandate for any course of action ever directed at UK Government.
British people cast their votes once again in the 2017 General Election where over 80% of those who voted, voted for parties, including the Opposition, who committed in their manifestos to upholding the result of the referendum.
This Government stands by this commitment.
Revoking Article 50 would break the promises made by Government to the British people, disrespect the clear instruction from a democratic vote, and in turn, reduce confidence in our democracy. As the Prime Minister has said, failing to deliver Brexit would cause “potentially irreparable damage to public trust”, and it is imperative that people can trust their Government to respect their votes and deliver the best outcome for them.
Department for Exiting the European Union.
” We will honour the result of the 2016 referendum ”
More bollocks – as expected – from the Tories. (Apart from anything else, he result actually showed that only a minority supported Brexit)
Question : Why would an opposition Party agree with Tory bollockspeak?
A question I’ve been asking myself ever since the beginning of February 2017 when they didn’t abstain on the A50
Labour have announced that they have imposed a 3 line whip on a 2nd referendum
Labour have finally made a move on supporting a 2nd referendum
Confirmatory public vote (a.k.a. second referendum) Drawn up by Labour MPs Peter Kyle and Phil Wilson but with ex-Foreign Secretary Dame Margaret Beckett as lead signatory, this requires a public vote to confirm any Brexit deal passed by Parliament before its ratification.