MPs from other parties have tabled a no-confidence motion compliant with the terms of the Fixed Term Parliaments Act (FTPA):
The motion, which is certain to fail if ERG-group Tories such as Jacob Rees-Mogg and DUP MPs do what they have said they will and vote in support of Theresa May.
The hypocrisy in both cases is huge but solid. In view of the vanishingly-small chance of success of such a vote before the Commons vote on May’s dismal withdrawal deal next month, the motivation of the MPs is most likely an ill-judged attempt to force Labour to back a new Brexit referendum.
Until tonight, many centrists had insisted only Corbyn could table such a no-confidence motion, in an attempt to hide behind the Labour leader and force him to make a premature move when the parliamentary arithmetic is against success. John Bercow, however, has indicated he considers it his decision.
All the signatories are advocates of the arrogantly-titled “people’s vote” or otherwise opponents of Brexit in any form.
In spite of misrepresentation by media and centrist politicians, Labour’s policy does not commit the party under any circumstances to campaigning for a new referendum. A motion passed at the party’s conference in September says it will be kept open as an option.
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I’m certainly not a centrist but I’m opposed to Brexit in any form.
And none of you constant, totally uncritical, pro EU posters have ever tried to present a political analysis of the entirely neoliberalism-enforcing EU. Do you really think an EU which , via the Eurozone, has hobbled the southern European economies to the advantage of German Capital, destroyed the Greek economy and asset-stripped its national assets for the interests of German and French banks, and openly supports the ever-increasing Uberisation of EU economies, is any sort of “progressive”, internationalist, institution ? None off your huge number of uncritical pro EU posts suggests you are anything but a middle class Left Liberal, with a naïve view of the EU bereft of any pro working class socialist analysis.
“totally uncritical, pro EU posters”
Just noticed this distortion of reality.
No. ‘Remain’ supporters aren’t uncritical at all. They have weighed up the odds and found no benefits are likely to accrue from Brexit. It’s a pragmatic, rather than a religious standpoint. ‘Leave’ is the opposite.
The extremity of neoliberalism in this country has been entirely home-grown, and the UK has been key in pushing for neoliberal policies in the EU. The ‘neoliberalism-enforcing EU’ is actually the confluence of national neoliberalisms in an association of sovereign states.
The only way to an alternative is in co-operation with other socialists – because the UK outside the EU will be subject to the same pressures in terms of trade. It is totally naive to think that the UK can isolate itself in a socialist paradise. It can’t and won’t happen, and means of ameliorating the competition regulation against state investment and control are already available; our fire sale of family silver was a local death-wish, not imposed.
Thank heavens, Jack T. I’m not a centrist either and I’m also passionately opposed to Brexit.
There are lots of us, and we are in good company because the majority of Labour members support Remain.
I am a democrat, so I respect the referendum result.
@ Internal Affairs If democracy means doing somethng monumentally harmful to the interests of the country just because people once voted for a vague concept a couple of years ago, I am proud not to be a democrat.
Well this Labour member voted to leave. Signed it as a real person too because I am.
If, another referendum is produced by our legal government then I’d still vote leave. Democraticly
“I am a democrat, so I respect the referendum result”
That begs two questions :
(1) What is ‘undemocratic’ about a further vote?
(2) As the result of the last vote was split inconclusively, with a minority supporting the government’s current position, why nopt seek clarification?
‘…the majority of Labour members support Remain.’ True.
But have we looked at the results based on constituencies, rather than ‘popular vote’ – for lack of a better word? Because information from some quarters (I tried attaching the link to ‘some quarters’ i am referring to on another post a few days ago and the comment got mod’ed – and still is!) suggests that if we look at the results, constituency by constituency, most Labour constituencies voted Leave. Regrettably, UK general elections are won on constituencies, not popular vote. Maybe that explains Labour leadership’s stance on Brexit: they have their eye on 1st prize, that is, winning the general election.
PS: the linked page is (in ‘words’) “fullfact dot org” – I hope this will fool the mods! …wink!
Me too. Not a centrist, big fan of Jeremy and supported him since 2015 still support him.
Have now come to absolute opposition to Brexit. Stopping it is the number 1 objective. As a VONC is not going to pass any time between now and 29th March 2019 might as well get it over with and move on to another option.
As 65% of constituencies and 17.4 million voters voted leave, Labour would be wiped out if it followed your advice and refused to respect the referendum result.
You are effectively campaigning for the Conservatives to remain in power.
Your wish to remain in the EU is causing you to think irrationally.
Internal Affairs 18/12/2018 at 11:36 pm
I prefer to stick with Labour Party Policy as agreed at this years Labour Party Conference.
I wouldn’t start lecturing me about party lines or you will end up looking a fool.
Let’s be honest, eh? You are a social democrat. SDP detritus. A political parasite. An anti-socialist wrecker.
Here’s an idea, why don’t you bugger off to the Liberal Democrats and sabotage their party?
Oh, hold on, you don’t need to bother. The Liberals stood on the platform you are demanding Labour adopt and they lost over 300 deposits and recorded their lowest vote share since 1959 at the last general election.
People like you are a liability to the Labour Party.
Internal Affairs 18/12/2018 at 11:57 pm · ·
FFS _ Grow-up big boy.
Just take a look at your posts and then reflect on who’s doing the most of the lecturing on here. I was simply stating what I believe to be the truth if you want to counter that with your version of the truth then I’m quite happy to engage with you and if I feel you have proved me wrong then I will be grown-up enough to graciously acknowledge my error. What I won’t do is follow your example and start running around insulting everyone like a schoolyard bully trying to cover up their own embarrassment because the paucity of there own argument has been exposed.
Internal Affairs, by that logic every fresh election is a refusal to ‘respect’ the previous one – even calling for a ‘no confidence’ vote disrespects the will of the people.
A belief that the will of the people is fixed and unchanging has no basis in logic or reality.
The simple fact is you and all Brexit supporters know perfectly well that opinion is moving toward remain based on events, fresh information and demographics and you bitterly resent it.
The world is changing faster and faster with technology.
Politics and society necessarily drag their feet because people change more slowly than technology – but faster than ever they have in previous times.
The things you believe impossible – like the EU changing its spots – will be commonplace in the blink of an eye.
Get with the programme.
You understand right that only at best 35% of the Labour vote supported Leave? So it is not a matter of the whole 17.4 million being Labour voters they are mostly Tories, Kippers, non voters etc
There is no certainty that number is static either. There are 3 cohorts of new 18 year olds since 2016 and a fair few of the top end of that 17.4m will have died. So just because 17.4m voted leave in 2016 doesn’t equal either the same in 2019 or translate to a monolithic GE voting block. In fact I would think a significant number of the leave vote in Labour areas were non voters not traditional or regular Labour supporters.They are not lost if they don’t turn up to the polling booth normally anyway.
Why the assumption the 65% of Labour voters who are Remain will just shrug their shoulders and dutifully vote Labour in a GE if a shitty Brexit is delivered? An exodius of those supporters will hurt as much if not more than any exodus of the Leave vote.
You are also not factoring in the longer term impact of Brexit. If we get the shit WA Brexit or worse a Hard Brexit then there will in a short time be a 2nd indyRef in Scotland. It will win and Scotland will be off.
How likely is a Labour Govt in a GE of just England and Wales? Add in pissed off Remainers (biggest concentration in London/ also one of the biggest Labour areas for vote + seats). If you think that scenario doesn’t deliver an almost indefinite Tory Govt you are soft in the head.
Sorry but sticking to the 2016 BS corrupt Brexshit referendum is crackers and in the long run utterly self defeating. The broad demographics of the electorates groupings are fluid right now and building a broad enough coalition of voters to win a GE is going to be very challenging.
Pretty sure though worshipping one single Referendum result like it was sacrosanct then shoving a Brexit shaped pogo stick hard up the arse of remainers is not going to deliver a Labour Govt anytime soon.
If you say ”arrogantly-titled “people’s vote”” enough times do you think people will actually start to believe it???
Yes – ‘arrogantly – titled peoples vote’ says it all on behalf of SB – who refuses to accept the increasing call for a second vote on the Brexit deal – as conference agreed – its an option – and therefore should not be denigrated.
People who wan a second referendum not a general election are usually Liberal/social democrats and not real supporters of the democratic socialist Labour Party.
The Liberal Democrats stood on a platform you suggest of refusing to accept the ref result at the last general election and they lost more than 300 deposits.
If Labour ever wants advice on committing electoral suicide we will give you a call.
Don’t wait by the phone.
Plz explain to me why I should support the ‘people’s vote’
We had a people vote…leave or stay, correct?
I did vote leave & will stick with that.
I am not a sheep nor stupid. I remember how we got into this bloody mess. Ted Heath. A nasty man in his private life but a true blue Con. It was illegal & treacherous. History repeating itself In my life time.
Did you know then what you know now? so you have a chance to confirm your choice or change your mind – what is the problem?
Yes I did. Tho that wasn’t the main reason for my leave vote. It was with clear understanding that EU plans an army & a United state (singluar) & no, I’ll not change my mind. Leave
…..because if you don’t and you don’t vote then your voice won’t be heard. But please feel free to organise a boycott if you feel that is most effective way of getting your voice heard
The term ‘people’s vote’ could have come straight out of the New Labour Spin Book.
Intended to appeal to the emotions rather than the intellect – clearly every election is a ‘people’s vote’.
Deriding all remainers for such pathetic nonsense is as bad as deriding all leave supporters as racist kippers.
There are perfectly valid and respectable opinions on both sides of the Brexit argument – it’s not an “I’m a socialist and you’re not” issue.
Some posts recently do seem deliberately designed to divide the left though – there are definitely infiltrators among us.
I’m only about 85% behind remain-and-reform but I’m 100% behind Corbyn.
‘There are perfectly valid and respectable opinions on both sides of the Brexit argument…’ This is worth repeating.
Regarding the ‘People’s Vote’, I am reminded of a quote ascribed to Churchill, which goes like “Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others”.
I seem to recall the same attitude by the Israelis and the West towards the Palestinians in Gaza when they voted for Hamas the first time instead of Fatah. As Forthestate said below about protest vote: when you ain’t got nothing, you got nothing to lose. In Europe and US, regrettably, it’s manifesting itself as the rise of the far right.
“People who want a second referendum not a general election are usually Liberal/social democrats and not real supporters of the democratic socialist Labour Party.”
I keep on being reminded of the irony of some of the songs in ‘Close the Coalhouse Door’ – perfect antidotes to unreal self-abuse politics.
The arrogance of defining the Labour Party, its supporters and its members in your own echo-chamber terms is astounding.
You really need to get out more.
I do not understand this total objection to a second referendum on the basis of its not democratic. No election lasts forever. I accept that unless there is an overwhelming vote on one side or the other ie at the very least 60% and preferably more, the debate will go on forever. Why are Leave voters so worried- surely if the advantages of Leave have been made apparent that is what people will vote for. However, why on earth anyone thinks Labour would have any hope of winning a General election if it’s position was still Leave is beyond me. I for one would just spoil my ballot if there was no Green candidate.
Talk of troops on standby, the pound is already verging on parity with the dollar- just how much self harm do people of this country want to do to us all?
You refuse to accept a democratic outcomes and then ask why people would object?
I am a democrat. I respect democratic outcomes, so I respect the referendum result.
If you don’t respect democractic outcomes you are, de facto, not a democrat.
Raising the temperature of the discussion to name-calling is divisive and dividing us is the only thing that might save the Tories from humiliation.
Young people tend toward remain, old people tend toward leave – opinion is swinging demographically against leave and leavers are pretty confident of losing a second referendum.
That’s no excuse for your attitude toward fellow LP members.
“Raising the temperature of the discussion to name-calling is divisive…”
Yes, and you’d know all about that, wouldn’t you David.
Touché, Stoatfart.
I want a second referendum, my actual preference would be a labour government first then a referendum on whatever agreement to leave is cobbled together. The referendum should have the choice to remain. Almost all posts wanting a second referendum seem to be of the opinion it will be an easy win for remain – I don’t see this at all. The only way it can be stopped is with second vote. This will be a nightmare of racism and lies. I campaigned for remain leafleting and canvassing. The vote for Brexit was more than anything else a mix of anger despair with some racism thrown in. I discussed the day after the vote with a brexit voter – her vote was one of despair she was working and could get overtime, her husband on a precarious low paid zero hour contract. She described not knowing week to week month to month if she would have enough money to pay rent and bills. She had two children at home one at at school on 17 left school at sixteen unable to sign on not working. She worked extra hours when husbands hours were looking dodgy, she said She hated this as it meant she saw even less of the kids. This had been her life for years. The despair at the Brexit vote felt by remainders had been her lot for twenty years and was getting worse. Her daughter would likely never get a council house, would probably end up on zero hours. She described her vote for Brexit as giving politicians a poke in the eye. A second referendum will have Farage and the rest arguing the vote itself is a betrayal by the establishment to subvert the will of the people. It will have even worse levels of racism. We can still lose. We can only win if we clearly give people hope of a better life. To anyone remainer to brexit supporter would the life of the woman I spoke to have been better if we voted remain……I’m not sure. We have to give people hope to win a second referendum. It cannot be just a rerrun of the Alistair Campbell’s of this world talking nonsense.
Leave doesn’t have ‘the problem’ A referendum was voted on free & clear. Wanting another to bring it up to 60%? Really? I’m sticking to my guns & I don’t need to be badgered by Leavers or Tony Blair
Lin Wren 20/12/2018 at 3:44 pm
Would you vote if there was another referendum?
I don’t think that was ever the issue, the issue is that only a motion of no confidence laid by the Leader of the Opposition is guaranteed any immediate parliamentary time so that it can be debated and voted on, So effectively the Tories can just ignore any motion of no confidence from anyone else but Corbyn just like they did with Corbyn’s motion against the PM
Check out Aaron Bastani’s Twitter feed on this. Also Counterfire website.
And support the People’s Assembly demo for a General Election in January.
See also this book review:of Costas Lapavitsas’ new book, “The Left Case Against The EU.” (Polity Press 2018), viii, 175pp.
https://www.counterfire.org/articles/book-reviews/20038-the-left-case-against-the-eu-book-review
In reply to previous comments it does strike me as somewhat arrogant to claim the title “the peoples vote” when to date we have seen no irrefutable evidence of a clear majority for a second referendum. However when you consider the leading mouthpieces using that expression include Blair,Mandelson,Campbell,Cable and Umunna I guess arrogance is only to be a expected.
Errr … if you want to just list unholy names, then I think Rees-Mogg, IDS, Johnson, Redwood, Davis, Farage … etc. aren’t exactly a model of left-wing rectitude, despite their closeness to Lexit.
I am quite clearly referring to the use of the expression people’s vote suggesting it is a bit arrogant,and making the point that leaders of the group using that expression are arrogant people. Consequently I cannot understand the point you are making in your reply
“just how much self harm do people of this country want to do to us all?”
Shortly after the referendum, and long before any analysis proved her right, a woman from somewhere (can’t remember) near Leeds commented to a TV reporter “it’s simple – if you’ve got money, you voted to remain, if you’ve got nothing, you voted to leave”. It’s the most succinct appraisal of the referendum I’ve yet heard. And it’s fairly clear that the amount of harm done to the living standards of a large percentage of the population over the last forty years, which resulted in a protest vote against the status quo, has been tolerable over that period to the rest of us. Tolerable enough to do nothing about it.
For years, turnouts at general elections declined as people began to realise that whoever they voted for, the economic policies remained almost exactly the same, and their living standards continued to decline. With the referendum, people who had given up on democracy had their first real opportunity to make their voice heard, and what better way to do so than to bugger the system that had ignored them for so long; after all, you lot have been whining about it ever since, so it worked.
The argument that the vote was against the interests of those protesting, since things stand to get a lot worse for them also, fails on two counts; firstly, it misunderstands the nature of a protest vote, which calculates, consciously or otherwise, that so much harm has already been endured that the time has come to inflict some of it on others, even if it makes your own situation worse; in other words, when you ain’t got nothing, you got nothing to lose.
And secondly, it’s an argument that is only now being made because, for the first time in forty years, things stand to get a lot worse for those who haven’t really noticed austerity at all.
What was very noticeable, immediately after the referendum, was that right up until the announcement of the result, the working class, the poor, and the most vulnerable amongst us were the very raison d’être of the Blairite, centrist left. They lived and breathed for them. Within 24 hours of the result, they were thick, ignorant, uneducated, xenophobic, racist knuckle-dragging scum. All of them. Since they didn’t have a hope to begin with, what changed, I wonder?
I see the EU have cracked down on Orban – such is their love of democracy….Oh, hold the ‘phone, they haven’t??
Yes folks, there’s a rise of extemist right that’s infested governments within the EU, but just carry on about a few knobheads in the UK as if it was an exclusively insular problem, eh? That’ll convince the ‘uninformed’…
‘You didn’t know what you were voting for, now you do so you should vote again with ‘informed consent’
BOLLOCKS.
No bastard knew what the toerags were about in 2015 other than the referendum guarantee. They had f-all in their manifesto at the last election; so who knew what they were voting for then? Gonna tell those what voted toerag to vote again because of that?
Small wonder you get laughed at when you try to pontificate your definition of democracy.
‘But you can change your mind every five years and have another vote’
Yes that’s right. Your major malfunction (‘People’s vote’ tossers – and you ARE tossers) is that you fail to understand that you actually GET what you vote for.
We got a tory Govt. Twice. We havent had one Brexit, yet.
Well that made a lot of keenly and closely argued sense! 🙂
That’ll change reality, I’m sure.
Meanwhile, as I understand it, the govt. can choose to ignore the FTPA compliant vote of no confidence because the motion hasn’t come from the leader of the opposition. If this is the case, then the motion might better be described as a wasteful, self indulgent and cynical attack on the LP and its leadership rather than a challenge to the Tory government.
Correct paulo that is exactly what it is and it’s pathetically transparent and desperate of those who are trying to bounce Corbyn and Labour into supporting it .
Very disappointed to see Caroline Lucas name on it , thought she knew better than that
Watch her very closely, she is no Socialist.
“Watch her very closely, she is no Socialist”
Infamy! Infamy! Again! The paranoia is the only notable trait. She’s never claimed to be a socialist, as far as I know. And, like it or not, a lot of people don’t claim to be – but can be enlisted in support.
This image of Labour ‘socialism’ as a narrowing painted corner of an echoing room doesn’t fill me with great hopes for the next election.
I was referring to her political nouse as a nuanced operator , but to try and ram thro a VONC with the other idiots on the amendment is disappointing . It will fail and it would appear that she along with the FBPE brigade want to use ANY means to force a second vote . Whether she is a full on socialist in nature or not is to me irrelevant , I suspect that being Green , she will tend to be more sympathetic to people , i.e humanistic and thus would perceive more in common with Labour than the Tories.
@RH .. “This image of Labour ‘socialism’ as a narrowing painted corner of an echoing room doesn’t fill me with great hopes for the next election.”
No more so than the same for the Tory echo chamber of the MSM only that’s on a much more massive scale than here .
The important thing is recognising it as such and thus being able , at the appropriate times , to mute it , in order to win over the electorate
Given that some Squawkers found her impressive in the latest of the Jon Snow interviews, i think it’s quite important to weigh up her values. As for “can be enlisted…” the Sun didn’t claim to be Socialist and neither did the rest of Murdoch’s press and Tony Blair successfully “enlisted” them. How much good precedent do we have for your concept of a broad church?
I don’t disagree that green issues shouldn’t be informing the LP. Is Caroline Lucas currently being supportive: tactically? strategically?
I didn’t mention the Br word and you mustn’t either, should you care to reply!
Ooerh, too many negatives, please sub. … I agree that green issues should be informing the LP…
Are Vince Cables, Patrick Gradys and Jonathon Edwards not the same writing?
And if there are 3 cohorts of new 18 year olds and several older end deaths are people not assuming, all be it based on the referendum breakdown, that the new voters will vote remain and the deaths voted leave.
By the same token of assumption there will also be 3 new cohorts of people moving into different catorgaries. so does that also follow that voters who have turned 50 will now vote leave. as that seemed to be the remain/leave divide.
I hope that makes sense
I voted remain because I didn’t want to enter into this futile debate – knowing full well that people know no more about the real situation relating to the EU, than they did at the last vote. But if there is another I will vote and campaign to leave. This whole EU fiasco has been the same as the austerity argument a cover so that the Tories can continue unhindered to dismantle the state, which is exactly the same situation that is happening in Europe. Why else do people think there are riots on the Paris streets? Germans protesting about their equivalent of Universal credit, and the end of Merkel? Greece was deliberately crucified in order to steal their state assets, whilst Europe’s corrupt banks were bailed out. Economically people simply don’t understand that the EU has irreconcilable trade imbalances that will eventually crash Europe because of the regulations governing the Euro. I do hope people sooner rather than later wake up that the Tories are not the only answer to Brexit but there is a genuine alternative, which requires all our efforts to to get rid of them in order to expose what is happening everywhere.
In your own words the downtrodden of the EU are beginning to wake up to the fact of their oppression – giving hope to many of us that the possibility of change might be growing – and that makes you choose NOW to leave?
Like
spot on rotzeichen and I too have the same intentions, why ,,,, because the present EU model is a full on Neo-liberal one that does not and cannot represent the working class , viz Gilets Jaunes in France etc.