The DUP did more than just abstain in one of the votes this evening on the Tories’ budget, as they had threatened – they voted with the Labour Party in a vote Labour lost by just five votes.
The Tories’ ‘confidence and supply’ arrangement lies in shreds.
Tory MP Nadine Dorries summed up the situation in words that will have run chills down the Establishment’s spine:
There are only two outcomes to this mess, a new PM or a general election. Thanks to the disasterous [sic] ‘17 election – another TM calamity – No 10 does not hold the winning cards
Labour also recognised the significance, with Jon Trickett commenting that the UK ‘no longer [has] a functioning government… something’s got to give’:
Unsurprisingly, so far the BBC News channel has made no mention of this development.
Update: at 10.13 pm in the main 10pm news programme, well over an hour after the DUP voted against the government, Laura Kuenssberg only mentioned the party abstaining.
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God help the Labour party if it enters an “agreement” with the DUP!
It is far more likely to enter an agreement with the SDP…
BBC now covering it
It’s got to be a new pm then, there’s no way they’ll risk a Corbyn government.
Did any Labour MPs vote with the government or were any conspicuous by their absence.
“Tory MP Nadine Dorries”
I wouldn’t quote her as reliable commentator on anything. She is one of the swivel-eyes who want May to go, and might risk the consequences. But I can’t see either that happening or a general election. They’ve gone this far down the road to ruin – they aren’t going to give up that easily.
At some stage, Labour must offer another referendum when we gain power, it’s the only democratic option. We cannot under any circumstances implement a Tory obsession. The only people who will object are the die-hard right wing Brexiters and we shouldn’t let them call the shots or be afraid of their tantrums.
It wouldn’t surprise me if the civil service are now expecting and preparing for a ‘no deal’ which would be catastrophic.
https://azvsas.blogspot.com/2018/11/as-tories-totter-on-edge-labour-must.html
At some stage, Labour must offer another referendum when we gain power, it’s the only democratic option.
Absolutely not. The UK made a democratic choice to depart from an undemocratic entity. You might not like or agree with the result, but it was democratically taken.
You can say ‘well that’s why we elect a Got every five years, or the risible ‘people didn’t know what they were voting for’ (I did) all you please – But the one thing everybody WAS told AND agreed on was that there was no going back.
I could make a good case to say that the referendum was NOT democratic. But leaving that aside, the referendum result was only advisory as noted in the House of Commons Library and as the consequences are now much clearer, it is only democratic that people be given the option to either stick with their first choice or change.
Some say how many referendums should we have? but the point is when the facts or the basis upon which people voted change or become clearer it is only common sense to think again.
The first result was not as decisive as many claim. In round figures, of the total electorate, one third voted leave, one third voted stay and one third didn’t vote.
People who are afraid of democracy are those who object to a second referendum. Democracy cannot be overturned by democracy.
I could make a good case to say that the referendum was NOT democratic.
Which if it’s what I suspect you’ll say won’t amount to much because the same thing happened with the lib demsfor the remain campaign…
‘Advisory’ my arse. Just like temporary traffic lights are ‘advisory’ if you go through them when on a red, you’ve broken the law. Everybody understood & accepted that the result would be as an election despite what the law said.
Stick with their first choice ot change?
Ok – where was the vote to remain in the EU for Maastricht? The Lisbon Treaty, or even the opt-out whenever there were MEP elections? They weren’t given to us, so just how ‘democratic’ was that?
‘First result’??
Don’t you mean THE result? There hasn’t been – nor should there be, any more debate. Circa 1 million people voted leave….What is it escapes you about that?
Luxembourg (Pop. 590k) has the capacity to stymie each and every resolution the other 26 nations (Combined total Pop. 500 MILLION) the combined rest of the EU put forward.
That’s ‘democracy’ to you. Just over 1 in 1000 potentially have the sway of power.
But somehow, winning a vote by 1 million from an electorate of 45 million (1 in 45) ‘isn’t democratic’
Very strange.
Well you can bleat as much as you like but it won’t alter the facts, will it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Referendum_Act_2015#Legislative_consequences
As for your thoughts on how decisive the result was, you can mess around manipulating statistics as much as you want but the fact remains that the majority averaged out at less than 1000 votes per constituency.
Your fear of democracy is palpable.
‘As for your thoughts on how decisive the result was, you can mess around manipulating statistics as much as you want but the fact remains that the majority averaged out at less than 1000 votes per constituency.’
*Sighs*
Key word in that statement of yours…’Majority’ And majorities are what makes for democracy, aren’t they? Or do you dictate the terms? So much for: ‘For the many…’
As for the ‘advisory’ shizzle – is parliament sovereign? Yes
Do they have the ability to ignore the result completely? Yes.
Did they ignore the result? No.
Tough titty.
Why are you afraid of a referendum on the deal now that we know what’s on offer.
Have you any reason to believe that the electorate wouldn’t be clamoring to vote for Theresa’s deal.
The Toffee (449) Raising ‘straw men’ and ‘traffic lights’ are not arguments they are figments.
As for ‘not going back’, we haven’t gone anywhere yet!
Therefore given the enormity of the decision and a clearer view of the destination, the people should be asked if they still wish to stick to their original choice before we set sail, it’s very simple.
Democracy and logic beat your ‘arguments’ every time.
Steve H – are you a prick?
No? Well stop acting one, read what you’ve written and stop second guessing people.
‘Fear of democracy’ for complete fuck’s sake.
‘Scared of another vote’? Not quite – I am however just sick to bastard death of jumped-up whining little shits who didn’t get their way. I didn’t give a version of democaracy from another fucking dimension when the toerags won the 2015 election or an election didn’t go with my vote.
Unlike you, I take my defeats graciously – if begrudgingly.
I’ve got you & your like well sussed. All too easy. I’ll tell you what you are, now.
I’ll bet- In fact I KNOW – you turned down clegg’s AV vote but then complained incessantly that the tories got in with only 35% of the national vote in 2015. And once again, that’ll be your hard shit.
But then again, if you voted for AV you would’ve bleated loudest and blamed everyone else if the kippers had got 13% seats at westminster in 2015. Then you’d probably denied you voted for AV.
I know I’m right. I said so. Like you, I’m infallible when it comes to portraying others. You & your lot want it every which way.
Well, tough fucking titty. It didn’t go your way..So what? The last three elections haven’t gone my way. I have to deal with it – you need to learn how to instead of pontificating most mistakenly about democracy to others.
Take your sorry-arse lib-dem version of democracy and cram it.
Well thanks for the diatribe, I hope it made you feel better.
Instead of indulging in histrionics could you please answer me two very simple questions
1. If we had a referendum now on an STV basis that had three options
Accept TM’s deal
Leave on WTO terms
Stay in the EU
would the majority vote to stay in the EU?
2. You pontificate about respect for democracy so how do you justify denying it to the majority of people (according to polls) that want another vote now that they have had the opportunity to see the reality of Brexit for what it is.
‘Indulging in histrionics’ now, is it?
…Oh, ok then. If you say so.
I’m not the one giving a version of democracy that exists in no dictionary anywhere, while complaining persistently and churlishly about the result and blaming those who at least had
the balls to say ‘up yours’ to the establishment that has wronged them for 40 years (or so) by not offering ANY alternative whatsoever.
I really can’t be arsed entertain your questions, because you’ve proved to me (at least) you’re more umunna than Corbyn.
Die-hard right wing Brexiteers like Dennis Skinner? David Cameron believed that ‘the Establishment’ could control ‘the Plebs’ via MSM & his arrogant hubris brought the chaos as ‘Remainer’ Maybot juggles whatever she can to stay in the Hotel California.
David Cameron believed that ‘the Establishment’ could control ‘the Plebs’
Exactly! As did the useless, talentless careerists like umunna leslie et al.
And the result was a resounding: ‘bollocks to the lot of ya’.
And to top it all off, clegg got punted altogether at the next election :D. Lets hope the likes of umunna ,leslie and all the other sell-outs go the same way next time about and Corbyn waltzes it.
But then there’ll still be some will still find something to complain about…
I can’t understand why Labour didn’t win this, if the DUP voted against the government. Has anyone a link to the list of names so I could see who abstained, although pairing doesn’t make the reason for abstaining explicitly clear (some rumours Corbyn himself didn’t vote)
You can see how MPs voted here
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2018-11-19/division/CEC4233A-08FF-41BE-8390-322EEEA5270C/Finance(No3)Bill?outputType=Party
The pairings system possibly misused on this vote.
I dont reckon the DUP will when it matters most vote with us. Same as the tory rebels. they go missing. cant rely on any of them if you ask me. We are still relying on the bloody ERG group to vote down the withdrawal agreement.They couldnt sort themselves out to vote no confidence unlikely to vote against PM now or in future.
Dont put your trust in any of them
Simply : the Tories aren’t going to give up their rigor mortis hold on power. They are stupid by most definitions, but not when it comes to self interest. (The only possible election contingency I can see is for them to ditch this mess in order for Labour to pick it up and be saddled with it until the Tories come riding back on the white charger for another session of de-regulated austerity. Remember their success in landing Labour with the blame for the last neoliberal mess).
Time for Labour to develop the long game – part of which is to bring the leadership back in line with the Party as a whole on Brexit. I think the options are closing down, but the first priority must be to see if it is possible to avoid the self-harming nonsense of Brexit.
As to the ‘democracy’ issue : the Brexiteers blew that argument when they went for a referendum that succeeded ti 1975 one. In addition – the current mess was caused because the latest one was drawn up on the back of David Cameron’s fag packet, with none of the threshold safeguards that even the local stamp-collecting circle will have in place for changes in the constitution.
Secondly, it patently produced no clear majority in favour of change, and thirdly, of course, anyone who has listened to a sample of vox pops around the referendum knows that many voters simply had no idea of what they were voting for, beyond the propaganda tropes of the foreign-owned press and its millionaire owners.
The referendum was and still is extraordinarily effective in diverting our attention from Tory misrule.
In ‘divide and rule’ terms it’s on a par with the empire’s manipulation of tribal enmities around the world.
Protests of “We knew what we were voting for” belie the simple fact that Tories only ever win when a majority of turkeys vote for Christmas.
Blaming the EU for its neoliberalism ignores the fact that Thatcher’s generation of Tories started the ball rolling and that they still worship her and constantly proselytise neoliberal cant.
Most of the tax havens of the world are British and the EU’s Anti-Tax Avoidance Directive is most unwelcome in Tory circles.
The ability to nationalise is only part of the answer – a useful tool to prove neoliberalism fails its own test of efficiency.
We can’t build Utopia without first killing The Market.
I seem to remember before the 2015 election that the only party offering a referendum were the toerags….
Had the fucking incompetence and mirroring of the toerags within the higher echelons of the labour party not been so bleeding repulsive to so many labour voters (leading enough of them to vote toerag) then we wouldn’t even be having the bastard debate.
So it’s as much moribund & balls’ fault as it is camoron’s. But some just won’t admit it. They’d prefer to blame traditional (left) Labour voters like me for voting leave, rather than the rats who moan about ‘establishments’ but want us to remain as part of a fucking huge, ever-burgeoning one, for complete fuck’s sake.
And shame on them for not voting leave for the reasons mentioned above.
I (extremely grudgingly) voted labour 2015 but voted out of the EU as it was perhaps the only way to exacerbate the differences and spats within the toerag party and put the shits up those useless careerist, centrist feckers. If being out of an undemocratic institution was the way to get the toerags to implode and the undemocratic labour right in a flap then so be it.
I’ll apologise to no bastard for it.
“I (extremely grudgingly) voted labour 2015 but voted out of the EU ”
Well – that went well, then – aligning with JRM, Mr Toad et al., sundry extreme neoliberals and snake oil salesmen didn’t it? 🙂
In an era where we have Gov’t & Public Opinion controlled & dominated by MSM, it would be easy to make a case that democracy itself is being undermined by MSM, particularly Public Service Broadcasters such as BBC & Channel 4. It was Cameron’s referendum that caused this chaos.There has never been a ‘platform’ allowed for a ‘Socialist’ critique of EU membership, as MSM unites to find ways to support Maybot’s solution of Brino, but when she says “Brexit means Brexit”, what do you think she really means? “Oh dear, look at the mess I’ve created over the past 2 years! There’s only one way out………….yet another peoples’ vote”. “ah”, she says, “now that’s what I really, really wanted all along!”.
“it would be easy to make a case that democracy itself is being undermined by MSM, particularly Public Service Broadcasters such as BBC & Channel 4.”
Yes, completely agree.
Jack T, don’t we all here take that as read?
Without the MSM Tories would be just a footnote in the history books.
errr … but hang on …. the foreign-owned MSM propaganda machine – Bum, Bile, X-Press – was key in the Brexit vote!
Hi Jack. Good to see that you completely agree with me; that means you’re right! (at least about that).
According to Adonis “some Labour MP’s didn’t show last night”, is that so and anyone know who they were?/Why they didn’t show?
6 Labour MPs did not vote in 1979 and the Labour government lost by 1 vote!
Accusation and counter-accusation about who’s a democrat and who isn’t while Tories laugh their fucking socks off – jeezus will we never learn?
I’ve seen enough of Tories stealing our futures and I’m a hair away from insurrection.
Perhaps, David, if SOME would stop stifling domestic issues by doing piss-all else BUT moan about brexit and those that voted for it (Regardless of reasons) we’ll be able to go on to more important things.
But no. To them the EU is the be-all and end-all.
They’re the ones belittling the sensible people who are more concerned with concentrating on home affairs and starving the careerist/centrist/whateverists of support for their anti-corbyn, pro-europe agenda.
Bollocks to Europe. Piss on umunna. I want a (socialist) Labour Govt before and above anything else.
Some obviously have their priorities elsewhere….
Well done! An admirable bit of virtue signaling.
Oh, look – Here come the political buzz-phrases, now. Make you intellectual, does it? Give you a sense of knowing what you’re talking about, does it?
The language of the pub-bore(s). Says it all. News for you Steve H – phrases like that are nothing but pretentious shite. The type of guff the careerists like to spout. Those that don’t want the status quo to be ‘so last year’ but would rather we had it the same way forever & ever, amen.
There’s nothing socialist about the EU. Nothing socialist about those in the labour party that shriek about the supposed ‘injustices’ and ‘inconsistencies’ of the democratic decision to leave. We all KNOW who THEY are, and what they stand for.
And there’s most definitely nothing socialist about one member state imposing austerity on another, and forcing the other country’s citizens to hand over their savings, come to think of it…
I couldn’t give a flying one what you think OR say. You’re no socialist.
Socialists are prepared to give & take. You wouldn’t even accept a slight change. Well it’s not all about you, or your minority 16 million.
I’m unsure what you hope to achieve by lashing out. The majority of Labour Party members and voters want another referendum so they can have the opportunity to make an informed choice on the reality of Brexit. It’s you that is in the minority.
As for political affiliations I’m proud to be a Labour party member and I strongly support Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership. I also support OMOV and the democratisation of the party. For the first time in a long time I was really proud to support the Labour Party Manifesto at the last GE.
I am also a member of Unite.
“Some obviously have their priorities elsewhere….” but not the people you’re accusing here I think.
Nothing disloyal about debating the best way to fight the Tories.
Here or in the EU, they’re all ‘Tories’ and we need rid of the lot of them.
As a tiny socialist state at the edge of a huge artificial neoliberal superstate would we win a second election, isolated and economically victimised as we would be?
ps… bearing in mind that it would likely be England alone quite soon.
Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland each have their reasons for wanting to jump ship.
As a tiny socialist state at the edge of a huge artificial neoliberal superstate would we win a second election, isolated and economically victimised as we would be?
————————————–
Think as a socialist state within the EU and under their thumb we’d do any better? The EU is NOT socialist and NEVER will be.
FFS people – wake up, will ya?
We’ve been getting shit on since 1979. There has been NO alternative political choice since thatcher. The ‘centre’ line was dragged so far to the right that the boundary between what was the far (Not extreme) right in the 70’s is almost the centre ground in 2018.
Ever-present throughout that time has been the EU. Indubitable proof that they are part of a ‘higher establishment’ , if you will. Accepted as ‘the norm’. when they should be binned if there’s to be real, meaningful change.
How the absolute fuck can people complain when they’re offered an alternative then vote for more of the same thing instead, is even beyond the reasonable comprehension of an amoeba.
Slowly but surely, that line I mentioned is being dragged back to the left – domestically at least. The EU is a factor in how far back that line goes to it’s 1970’s position.
Socialism, or EU membership? There is NO both. I know which I prefer.
———————————————–
Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland each have their reasons for wanting to jump ship.
And not without good bleedin’ reason ,neither. Who wants those clowns in westminster running their affairs? I don’t – and I’m English!
The last Labour Party Manifesto has been likened by many to what is accepted as being middle of the road in many Scandinavian countries. They seem to manage to co-exist with the EU without too many problems.
Unfortunately if Scotland and Wales bugger off then it is difficult to see how Labour could gain power in England for the foreseeable future.
Toffee, the society we know doesn’t have much time left.
AI/robotics (sorry to go on about this again) will be here before we know it.
Rapidly growing unemployment, reduced services and an accelerating wealth gap will shift opinion in favour of socialism everywhere, not just here in the UK.
Nobody can predict what event will finally wake people up but when it happens politics could change virtually overnight.
Preventing EU neoliberals from further embedding their current advantage in law between now and then would be worthwhile – but it’s hard to see how we could help in that without being a member and convincing other financially marginalised states to join in vetoing the fuckers.
I’d like us to clear our Tories out of the way and join EU socialists in fighting their own regimes from a position of influence – but socialism will logically prevail anyway whether we’re there or not and whether it’s done democratically or in revolution.
The last Labour Party Manifesto has been likened by many to what is accepted as being middle of the road in many Scandinavian countries. They seem to manage to co-exist with the EU without too many problems.
Of course, Steve – And the Scandinavians harboured the likes of breivik and recently saw big gains for the far right in Sweden.
Just like the rise in the far right across the EU as a whole, eh? Or has that not happened?
——————————————
Unfortunately if Scotland and Wales bugger off then it is difficult to see how Labour could gain power in England for the foreseeable future.
That’s as maybe – but the jocks had the toerags make gains in 2015; both scotland & wales have nationalist parties that take away votes from the two major parties but more so labour.
In a two-and-a-half horse race in England it wouldn’t be the continual cakewalk for the toerags that some like to make out.
“As a tiny socialist state at the edge of a huge artificial neoliberal superstate would we win a second election, isolated and economically victimised as we would be?”
Precisely.
‘Socialist’ virtue-signallers are essentially working for the Tories.
From my understanding of the discussion, there are two issues here:
1. Do we go for another YES/NO IN/OUT ref.?
2. Do we respect the results of the first ref and demand one on the DEAL as ‘negotiated’ by the government?
The neo-liberal establishment and the majority of the so-called left-wing MSM are in favour of 1). This includes our Blairite faction. And the arrogance and condescending manner in which they treat the majority who voted YES is quite unfair. I fully empathize with The Toffee’s sentiments.
Can someone kindly explain what is undemocratic in asking the people to approve or disapprove the deal as negotiated by the government? Although that brings up the question: What happens if the people reject the deal, apart from No-Deal Brexit?
At least in pre-Fixed Term Parliament Act era, may be the government will resign. Not in the current era, where you will need two-thirds of MPs to agree to dissolve parliament or government is defeated in a motion of no-confidence. And the parliamentary arithmetic is not in favour of the socialists. Somehow, we need a mechanism that will trigger a general election, which, if won by Labour, will give it the chance to advance its own version of BREXIT based on socialist principles.
So, we have the result of the referendum to respect, a deal we do not want, and no way of Labour advancing its version of BREXIT based on socialist principles. In conclusion, currently the second referendum or voting down the deal in parliament will result in a no-deal brexit.
The government realises how damaging Brexit will be and just will not do it. The only choices will be May’s agreement or no Brexit at all. Hard Brexit, a complete separation from the EU, would be so damaging that it would keep the Tories out of power for years and they can’t risk that.