Comment
The ‘People’s Vote’ anti-Brexit campaign let slip something of its Blairite nature in one of the advertising posters it is using in preparation for its march today.
The campaign has seen the likes of the dire Chris Leslie and the awful Anna Soubry getting very chummy and is backed, among others, Chuka Umunna, who has just taken a £450-an-hour second job for a so-called ‘centrist thinktank’.
Even so, a campaign poster telling potential suicide victims ‘Don’t top yourself’ is a new low:
The poster was on view in a coach an route to the march. It does not appear to be a home-made one-off:
The immediate reaction on social media was understandably outraged:
(Note, the correct account for the campaign is @peoplesvote_uk)
The main issue facing this country is not, contrary to the blanket MSM coverage, whether the UK is in or out of the EU – it’s whether we have a Tory government or a Labour one. The last eight years of Tory government in the EU has been a disaster for our people and for the institutions, services and social safety-net we all rely on.
Nor has being in the EU prevented the rise of the fascist right in Hungary and elswhere, or prevented Establishment attempts to silence popular voices.
The ‘People’s Vote’ campaign is as Establishment as it gets – and an attempt to distract and divide us. As such, it is as much part of the system that has caused so many needless tragedies as the Tories are – and its true colours are showing.
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I don’t reckon it’s wise for The Swawkbox to align itself with Farage-like playground stuff and taint the People’s Vote march with the term ‘Blairite’, even if Progress etc. are in the Remain camp – so are the majority of the Party!
“in the Remain camp – so are the majority of the Party!” – ironic because the EU would almost certainly hinder a Corbyn govts public ownership program. They need to get real!! The EU is a neo-liberal institution!
Which is why Corbyn has always been very wary of the Single Market. A Customs Union is a different matter; we need tarif free trade ,
So, on a wing and a prayer, a customs union wouldn’t continue to bind our hands and tie us to neo-liberal economics?
And that is no doubt exactly what Corbyn’s talks with the EU negotiators have been about: how to find an outcome that does the least damage to the UK and EU, and that would permit him to implement his agenda.
Christ almighty. And they shriek that they get ‘abuse’?
No wonder I, like millions of other people voted out as a ‘f**k you’ to these exact types. They’re so far detached from reality they’ll never get the message.
So for any of them reading, here it is again.
F**K YOU.
Unfortunately it is looking increasingly likely that the outcome of your fit of pique is that you’ll have ended up f**king yourself as well as the rest of the country
Fit of pique?
Hardly. I’m sick to bastard death of the likes of bliar, umunna and others telling me I don’t know what I’m voting/have voted for. I voted against the interest of the political elites who have shafted me left, right and friggin’ centre for 90% my life.
I’m sick of unelected bureaucrats robbing the poorest and living high on the hog themselves, pretending they have power when in essence it’s the sheeple who have sleepwalked into giving consent…To the same RATS who tell us we’re sleepwalking into oblivion by voting leave.
Well F**K bliar, umunna, kincock and anyone who agrees with them. It’s bad enough being shat on by our own politicians – but being shat on by another level of bureaucracy? No f**king thank you.
And no – I don’t agree with the likes of johnson, jrm, ids and the rest of the other acronymmed right-wing twunts, neither.
If being out of the EU is the price I have to pay to prevent those twats from getting their way then so be it.
‘Fit of pique’ ffs….
Another Referundum is a dumb idea. 1. It needs the government to put forward legislation – and they refuse. 2. It would take several months and delay the whole process. 3. The result might well be the same! Back to where we are. 4. The result might be similar but with the Remain vote winning resulting in demands for a 3rd Referundum. That way it could be years before the issue is resolved. Best of 5 maybe? 5. A better idea is to have a General election; if Labour wins they can immediate negotiate a deal that retains the Customs Union, avoiding economic collapse and instantly solving the NI problem and comes to a sensible deal about immigration. Labour has far more friends in Europe than the Tories. The pressure for another Referundum comes from those terrified of an election Labour might win – interestingly that includes lots of ‘Labour’ MP’s!
It’s not a Blairite campaign; it’s right across the political spectrum. Anybody opposing a second vote, on what has been an absolute shambles, doesn’t understand how democracy works; the electorate have a right to change their minds, that’s why there’s a General election at least every five years, and why you nownow supp an early general Election.
At the time of the EU Referendum the Tories sent out booklets urging the public to vote Remain.
This march, complete with Chuka Umunna, is a manifestion of our ruling elite’s desire to rejoin the EU.
If the original result had been the other way around in Remain’s favour, there wouldn’t be this march. This march is a slap in the face for all those who voted to Leave. It ridicules the democratic process.
I wish I had never voted for the Lib Dems years ago but I’m not demanding a second vote to get the result I wanted.
A referendum is not like a general election: it is a one-off. You can’t just ask the referendums to be repeated until ‘you’ get the result ‘you’ want.
Nasir – The electorate voted as they did in the EU referendum for a multitude of different reasons. Any subsequent referendum would be a vote on whether our collective expectations have been met by ‘the deal’ that MayBot eventually comes back with. Do you have a reason to think that the electorate may have had a change of heart?
Exactly! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Precisely. Referendums are not general elections. Which is why constitutional votes have (except when devised by self-seeking nit-wits) thresholds to make sure that constitutional change is backed by a reasonable majority.
And that’s one problem – amongst a maze of others – with the present mickey-mouse referendum and it’s result. The change was supported by a mere 37% of the electorate.
Highly unconvincing.
Part of my reason for voting out as I did, Joe, was to impel the tories to implode over the whole shebang.
It almost (albeit unexpectedly) came to fruition with may calling the election; but the sole reason(s) the plan wasn’t successful was a direct consequence of the pro-EU types within the party slating Corbyn for his haphazard approach towards the EU debate, and the likes of the rodent dugdale telling people they’d be better off voting SNP or anyone but labour.
Totally unforgiveable, and the reason Labour hasn’t been in the position to have had sorted this shizz out by now.
It is a fact that the Blairites involvement in the campaign is not helpful to those hoping to bring sanity to the situation,since the Blairites are divorced from reality.Paul above ,talks sense in my opinion.
I voted remain. My most important concern now though is let’s get the tories out and a Jeremy Corbyn led Labour govt in. He will sort it out as he is not fazed and seems to know how to get things right with our neighbours.
Blairite opportunitism for you. Appalling.
We are leaving, get used to it and get behind it. The people’s vote is middle class neoliberals bemoaning the impending loss of the gravy train, a much needed lowering of their house values and fears that when they retire to their villas in France and Spain, they’ll have to pay for medical treatment. They’re the most illiberal liberals I’ve ever come across and flatly refuse to debate the fact that neoliberalism is written into European law, claiming we “can change it from within”. Meanwhile Europe is moving towards federation or having to dump the Euro and countries have to aim for a budget surplus while having a fixed budget imposed on them and the poorer Southern states are lumped with Germany’s exported unemployment while rich foreigners buy up holiday homes. Anyone who can’t see the problems inherent in European economics while trumpeting the advantages of being in the club is deliberately deceiving themselves or wantonly refusing to look at what’s happening.
How anyone can call themselves “Socialist” and want to be in the EU is beyond me.
Best comment I’ve read in ages. Thank you.
Thankyou, Lundiel 🙂
Your comment has crysalised my thoughts on the EU and, for the first time since all this debate started, and the lies, half-truths, and downright deceptions of people from all sides of the government started, you’ve helped me to see exactly what the most important issues are!
Even though I voted remain, your words have made it so clear to me that, if we want our country to survive, and even prosper, then leaving the EU, and voting in a Labour Government, should be the first steps we take – preferably getting rid of the Tories, and all the other Neoliberals who have helped get us in the mess we’re in, as fast as possible first, of course!
I agree it is cogent and correct Should be read by everyone. Cheers
Bingo!
Expertly summed up, Lundiel.
I add my name to the chorus saying this comment is excellent. One might add: the number of Member States now gradually going fascist is further testament to the effect of years of EU entrenched neoliberalism.
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Right with you on this!
Succinctly put Lundiel but I believe there’s a longer view to be considered.
Technology and educated populations are taking away the raison d’être of the neoliberals – we see it and they know it, hence the desperation in their repressive measures to shut us down now.
From their point of view they need to be out of our reach and in total control before AI’s mass unemployment causes revolution.
Even the rise of the far right retards across the EU, admittedly a possible danger, further proves the groundswell of dissatisfaction with the status quo.
Sadly for the neo’s they can’t use them against us on a large scale because we have the numbers and it would just wake more of us up.
Convincing the EU to turn left would be useful in the short term whether we’re in or out – a nationalising Labour government leading the way at this stage would be treated by the US as it treats Venezuela and any other nation that rejects its interference – we’re too small to resist the US but the EU isn’t.
The US may not be the last nation on Earth to reject neoliberalism – it may even be China or Russia – but it will fight socialism in other nations whatever the cost as it always has, special relationship or no.
“How anyone can call themselves “Socialist” and want to be in the EU is beyond me.”
Well … you obviously need to get out more.
Here’s one (with no delusions), and there were a few thousand in the streets today, and they actually form a majority of Labour voters, and ditto members of the Party.
I’m afraid the ‘socialism in one country’ band can’t play a tune that will convince, and the net result of that cul-de-sac will be a Party reminiscent of the unheroic band of hopelessness represented by John Cleese in ‘Monty Python’s Life of Brian’!
Maybe I wasn’t clear. This isn’t about what I want, it also isn’t about what Britain wants, Europe is changing. What it will end up like is anyone’s guess, but it can’t remain as it is now. It either moves towards further political integration or it dumps the Euro and from my perspective, that will mean more members leaving. The point is, whatever happens, I can’t see the British people agreeing to: join the Euro, join an EU army, or becoming part of a federation. And whatever happens, I think the original 6 members will become federated states. You only have to look at the economics of BRICS countries to see that any king of federation that would be acceptable to Germany would be wholly unacceptable to them.
I am looking through the long lens, remainers are dreamers, still believing the original European plan.
Apologies, I meant PIGS not BRICS.
Are you in the right party. A number of people marched against the war. You know what the result of that was. We are out, please accept that vote and then we can all save our country and then we can be pals. Regards to you and yours.
Lundiel wrote:-
“The point is, whatever happens, I can’t see the British people agreeing to: join the Euro, join an EU army, or becoming part of a federation.”
That’s assuming the British people will know about some of the moves successive UK governments have made towards the or a EU project and military unification. I suspect UK being somewhat removed from a fully federal EU eg. with its own independent central bank and currency are due to domestic ‘ruling class’ interests.
UK is already very closely involved in EU military union project PESCO even though UK has not signed.
UK Column News has followed EU military union steps for years. Here’s a condensed view of the chain of events and policy plus further articles and video.
https://www.ukcolumn.org/series/eu-military-unification
Absolutely. The euro currency union, in particular, was literally built to serve the finance sector at the expense of working people. The system was designed to destroy European welfare states and to suppress labour bargaining power. That is its only purpose, and it accomplishes it with ruthless brutality. See Greece. But, really, see everywhere. I mean, even the French working class is being successfully attacked.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/26/robert-mundell-evil-genius-euro
(From 2012, when the Guardian was still at least occasionally relevant.)
A 2nd Referundum is most unlikely to happen not least because it relies on the Tory government agreeing to do it. And they won’t. It’s a massive re-direction of efforts away from the only sensible solution – a GE. Corbyn would get a better deal than any Tory government could and still stay out of the EU giving us economic freedom. Every sane person in the country knows joining a Customs Union is the only sensible solution – even Mrs May knows it!
If anyone from the Labour Party (be it MP, councillor ,member or supporter etc) has authorised that sick and disturbing mental health poster then they should immediately cut up their membership card and get out of the Labour Party. GET OUT !! I’m absolutely livid at this. Have they not stopped to think what message it is saying to those of us vulnerable people who are scared about UC and all other cuts let alone Brexit.
Skwawkbox, can you please find put who has authorised this, please !
Although I voted remain, I have been leaning towards the position outlined by Lundiel for some time, as does Larry Elliott the economics editor for the Guardian (no, really, I’m not kidding). So many above have quite rightly said, a Govt. led by those who support Corbyn is what really matters. What I’m not so clear about is to what extent Labour have already been forced into compromise. Does being in “a customs union” for example impact negatively on our capacity to determine our own economic policies?
Paulo
Like being able to nationalise industries? That’s the right we must reserve for ourselves. Well, that and workers’ rights, environmental/consumer regulation, etc, etc.
The EU would almost certainly want to obstruct renationalisation of strategic industries. It’s a neo-liberal enforcer, why wouldn’t it?
timfrom, thanks for responding – just to clarify – are you referring to the retention of a (not the) customs union as seems to be proposed by Labour, or are you referring to membership of the EU as was?
@Marty I believe the neoliberal elements of the EU have come from the UK’s own domestic governments.
Take employee rights: the rest of the EU wanted broad and clearly enforceable rights. Our government demanded an opt-out.
And on nationlisation, there is a question whether we can reverse the privatisations in this country, but those rules don’t much bother other countries because they generally were never stupid enough to privatise natural monopolies in the first place.
It’s an issue that needs to be resolved with the EU. But unlike most left-wing Brexiteers, I don’t think the EU is remotely wedded to such ideas, and I am sure a deal is possible.
“neoliberal elements of the EU have come from the UK’s own domestic governments” and increasingly from the former “socialist” states who appear to see neo-lib aS THE ULTIMATE FORM OF LIFE.
And on nationlisation… those rules don’t much bother other countries because they generally were never stupid enough to privatise natural monopolies in the first place.” except for France, under their Mrs Thatcher, Macron, who are now privatising SNCF, and again, the former eastern bloc where EU is “encouraging” privatisatgion.
Have no illusions, the EU is wedded to neo-liberal dogma which is why we need to get out. I’d rather have a functional water/gas/elec/rail system. If it means I lose out on a booze weekend to Prague, so be it!
It is a clear indicator of Blairites who are and always were out of touch with reality use this nasty message . They haven’t got a clue. A real disservice to the recognition by the March that the Referendum in 2016 has laid the grounds for civil war, and a huge slap in the face to people frightened out of their wits by migraton to Universal Credit – 3 million people many of whom will be on breadline, facing rent arrears , and disabled children’s allowance being halved from £6 a week to £30, and a below the belt punch to people suffering from depression with a history of suicide attempts.
Quite correct, poetrymuseum.
I haven’t forgiven or forgotten the 184 lowlife, self-serving stoats that refused to vote against the tax credits bill. The day-to-day struggles of the ordinary joe don’t mean a f**k to them.
However, when they’re about to lose something it’s a different story. They never f**king stop goin on about how important it is to remain in the EU – And you’re royally f**ked if you think it’s through any sort of altruism on their behalf.
Well, the effing lot of them can form a queue to kiss my arse. I wouldn’t give them the steam off my sh*te.
Brilliant, Mr Toffee.
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As David Adler writes in Open Democracy, the threat to democracy comes not from the extremes but from the centre:
‘If Britain continues to move toward a hard Brexit, Remain moderates may be tempted to constrict the democratic will in order to get their way. In Italy, we have just witnessed a textbook case of authoritarian centrism, as the pro-establishment president blocked the formation of an anti-establishment government. The same could happen here.’
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/david-adler/beware-authoritarian-centre
This is particularly significant with regard to the People’s Vote and OurFutureOurChoice which are astroturfing as a grassroots’ organisations. As Richard Seymour writes:
‘Open Britain is the successor to Britain Stronger in Europe, the official campaign of Downing Street during the referendum. It is led by the campaign’s former press chief James McGrory. Its killer political instincts can be gauged by the failure to notice the significance of the initials “BSE”. It was launched by Tory peer and former M&S boss, Stuart Rose, and June Sarpong, in a complacent, gaffe-ridden affair which drew press heckles. Its board, no doubt reflecting its idea of diversity, included Tory MP Damian Green and Labour apparatchik Will Straw, Karren Brady of the Apprentice, New Labour Peer Peter Mandelson and millionaire businessman Richard Rudd. Its first video was essentially a celebration of easyJet, gap yahs and deregulated markets. Its first “letters” to the public were written by such figures as Alan Sugar and Richard Branson, celebrating the fact that the EU gave them huge market access.’
A grassroots organisation in the same way as the Tea Party in the US … in other words, not.
I’ve just read David Adler’s article. Wow, it confirms the “illiberal Liberal” theory. The enemy is the centrist. People’s Vote demonstrators are authoritarians.
The four comments dissing the piece were about all I agreed with.
Adler’s definitions are less than sketchy and answers to such meaningless poll questions as “democracy a very good political system” are about as valid as the Jewish Chronicle’s “poll” finding that “more than 85 per cent of British Jews think Jeremy Corbyn is antisemitic”
Still, if the ‘democratic centrists’ want to fight the ‘authoritarian centrists’ who am I to intervene?
Complete bollocks unmitigated by the least smattering of reason or rigour IMO, sorry.
I guess I must be one of those ‘extremists’ 🙁
The reference to Seymour is apposite, but like David McN, I think the Adler article is more than a little iffy, for all the reasons given; not to mention the inaccurate/simplistic reference to events in Italy and the curious, throw away line about Stalinist practices and Momentum. I don’t think he’s one for my reading list.
Some very interesting comments in David McN’s “longer view and Lundiel’s “long lens” though; it seems to me that both touch on real dilemmas.
The only long term solution out of this mess is a 2nd referendum, followed by a Remain victory, since more young people (who are strongly pro-Remain) are joining the electorate and the older generation (who mainly voted Leave) are passing away. So the preference for Remain will only increase. A recent survey indicates there’s a 60:40 split for remain if 15yo+ are included and don’t know’s taken out. So by the end of the transition period they will be of voting age.
https://twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/1052539120495484930
Of course Labour are far more pro-Remain than that. Most of the changes from leave to remain have been in Labour seats.
In addition, there’s little doubt the economy will take a hit if we leave, and Labour doesn’t wan’t to be in power trying to patch up a Tory disaster and get blamed for it when the economy tanks.
Those still moaning about ‘the will of the people’, are mainly concerned about Tories and UKIPpers not Labour voters. The Leavers, stole data, overspent and lied their way to a marginal victory in 2016 almost purely for nationalistic and racial reasons. Neither have I any interest ditching our long term EU partners, and increasing trade with Trump and dodgy middle Eastern despots such as Israel and the Saudi’s.
….”The Leavers, stole data, overspent and lied their way to a marginal victory in 2016 almost purely for nationalistic and racial reasons.” …
I’m sick to death of people like you lumping all Brexit voters in with racists, xenophobes and political ignorami. How would you feel if that narrative was directed towards you, day after day after day?
I voted to leave the EU because of the way it imposed austerity on Greece and Portugal. Its attacks on French unions. Article 106 (and now Article 13), its lack of democracy (EU nationals are never offered a vote to leave or join, even though they are forced to pay their tax towards it), its turning a blind eye to police brutality in Catalonia. The list goes on…
I have to remain civil with you whilst you label me a thug.
Yeah, the Catalonia thing shows just how morally bankrupt the EU has become. Franco would have approved 🙁
“I have to remain civil with you whilst you label me a thug.”
It’s what I call the Guardian effect Ella. All leave supporters were banned from the Guardian, now it’s just an echo chamber of fanatical remainers circulating the same smears and slurs over and over again, while telling themselves and each other that they support the centre left.
Ella
I was referring to the Brexit politicians and activists not necessarily the voters, but by voting with them you help to bring the sort of policies quoted below a step closer.
Priti Patel: “Once they enter the workplace the British are amongst the worst idlers in the world” and “leaving the EU would be an opportunity to cut social and employment protections
Andrea Leadsom: Small companies should be governed by “absolutely no regulation whatsoever – no minimum wage, no maternity or paternity rights, no unfair dismissal rights, no pension rights”
Concerning stereotypes, 90% of Labour members are Remainers, so most aren’t Blairites or even ‘moderates’, so I don’t likr beig lumped in with them. Lexiters are a small but vocal minority.
This must be the only time that politicians care about what young people think. Oxbridge excluded of course will you please knock it on the head. I am asking you, please Mr Geldoff stop writing in our column. Pip Pip.
Keep telling yourself that stuff till the end of the world, it won’t change a thing. Most people I talk to, leave or remain, are thoroughly sick of Brexit and those who voted leave are not likely to forget in a hurry how remain supporters have labelled them “Weatherspoons customers who didn’t know what they were voting for”. You have just posted the classic remain fanatic’s narrative. Did you even know that the so called “youthquake” credited with Corbyn’s resurgence never existed? If you are pinning your hopes on millennials and old people dying to change the outcome in a future vote that won’t happen for 30 years…forget it, it’s not going to happen.
Really?
Brexit won by an average of <1000 votes per constituency.
Your lot could speed things up a bit. Nudge, nudge, say no more.
Alexander – Whatever message you were trying to convey got lost in the translation. Try again.
Thank you lundiel for your message of support.
The always excellent, and much-missed johnny void’s take(s) on this matter
https://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/tag/eu-referendum/
The Toffee, your eloquence (something I’ve valued since enlisting here) is one thing, but this is just the best link on the above topic that I have read and I will forward it to those remainers, those good people, that I have been nudging and nudging. I don’t wish to embarrass, but thank you.
I reluctantly voted remain as a last chance to work with EC socialist parties & trade unions to try to break Neo-Liberalism but accept the result and leave it must be.
We have had a People’s Vote and the question has to be asked: What is your problem – was it the wrong people?
We should fight for democratic control of labour and capital supply, bring back migration adjustment funds, trade unionise migrant workers, show compassion to refugees whilst building international solidarity and as an example to other countries, then together we can break Right Wing Neo-Liberalism in the EC & Wotld!
It is hard when u know u may b in a minority and u think the majority are wrong but left wing democratic socialists don’t say what people want 2 hear they say what they feel people need to hear!
The Tony Blair/Vince Cable fan club managed a sizeable turnout in London today: didn’t see many of them with banners saying “I love paying 9K a year for Tarquin’s education!” or “Tarquin can’t wait to kill some more Iraqis.” Oh no, just banners saying, “Tarquin is Jean-Claude Juncker and Hillary Clinton’s lovechild and is looking forward to paying his taxes in Luxembourg one day,” or words to that effect. They can stick it where the sun doesn’t shine.
A Labour government could easily find ways to nationalise services, tax land, and change the whole economic emphasis of the county while still being in the EU. Brexit is going to damage everything and everyone in the country and shouldn’t be seen as any alternative to having a Labour government. We need both the EU and Corbyn. So what if Blair doesn’t like Brexit either.
EU legislation, ‘Article 106’ forbids renationalisation.
http://www.leftfutures.org/2015/09/eu-membership-means-no-renationalisation/
… but things aren’t quite as clear cut as you claim
https://theconversation.com/renationalising-britains-railways-eu-law-not-a-barrier-96759
I’m afraid this view is a delusion. EUI does not permit de-privatisations. Repeat – it is a neo-liberal enforcer!
I’m afraid this view is a delusion. EU does not permit de-privatisations. Repeat – it is a neo-liberal enforcer!
I’ve heard this argument a thousand times…that does’t make it any less false. From the market pillar of the Fourth Railway Package: to ensure impartiality of railway infrastructure managers, to guarantee non-discriminatory access to tracks for new railway companies, and to ensure better use of rail infrastructure;
to open domestic rail passenger markets from 2020, so that railway operators can provide services across the EU. More competitive pressure is expected to lead to more frequent trains, and higher quality services better in tune with customer needs;
more competition and performance targets for public service contracts, so as to improve cost-efficiency and get better value for money for taxpayers. Competitive bidding would become the norm from 2023 for the award of public service contracts to provide passenger rail services, which currently make up a large share of all rail services. Any contract awarded directly would need to meet specific performance and service quality targets.
The best possible scenario would see efficient railways linking main European cities, probably run by German, French and Spanish rail companies at the expense of smaller regional states. This is neoliberalism on steroids and this is only one industry.
I would also like to mention that I’ve recently retired from a middle management position and I’ve had it up to here with “performance targets”, evaluations, doing more with less and all the rest of the crappy buzzwords designed to hammer us into an acceptance of eternal austerity.
Lundiel, I’m with you in spirit but I don’t believe the EU is itself the problem – the EU and many of its structures could as effectively work with socialism as neoliberalism.
‘The Market’ and its priests are the real enemies – whether we leave or stay, as long as governments bow to the markets we’re all just as fucked – here and everywhere else.
Funding productive enterprises, the original purpose of shares, now comes a distant second to the ‘playing’ and ‘beating’ of the markets by ‘investors’ – I believe we have to tame the markets, possibly by first slowing down trading.
Enforcing fixed terms on all investments might do the job of removing the instabilities caused by the instant profit motive.
It’s the gambling-addicted investors of all kinds – but especially the bankers – that cause the crashes that lead to austerity.
The rich have to put their money somewhere so investment wouldn’t cease and profits would reflect genuine growth not the Trumpish kind based only on investor optimism and deregulation.
Regulatory authorities with real teeth, no bailouts of institutional losers and imprisonment of market manipulators.
Legal duty of directors to wider society and employees before members and investors, strengthened whistle-blowers’ charter.
Tax law review, INTENT of laws clear and enforceable. Loopholes closed within days of appearing to put scruple-free lawyers and accountants out of business.
What happens after we leave the EU without the above?
A decade or two of costly re-nationalisation against enormous opposition and lawsuits from US and neoliberals everywhere.
The blame for AI/robotics job losses, closely followed by ten years of Tory re-privatisation.
No overall gain – again.
Convincing the EU of the truth won’t be easy but the grassroots who feel the pain might force their hands if there’s solidarity between us. I suspect our leaving will make that harder.
And does anyone here seriously believe the anti tax avoidance directive that becomes EU law in January won’t be ditched as soon as possible by the Tories?
Jeremy has captured the imagination of the young but he’ll be 73 in May 2022 (I’ll be 71 so don’t call me ageist).
Time slips away and sometimes it just feels like we’re steaming slow ahead when we need ramming speed.
Oops, I seem to have cut and lost the para about another crash probably being a precondition for clipping the market’s wings.
Much better written than the rest, honest. Bummer.
We are “with each other in spirit” and David’s words are a poignant reminder of what we have become: a de-regulated and unsustainable casino. For the Left, the justification for the leaving of the EU, is predicated on a socialist government – and governments (together with their policies) tend to come and go; whereas, as I understand it, EU policies have a tendency to become enshrined. There is a dilemma for both positions: the ones outlined by DMcN and Lundiel.
However bad people think the EU is, leaving it will be much worse. Many posters on here support leave for idealogical reasons, the same as the Brexit Tories but for different ideals. Either way the damage will easily outstrip any possible advantage.
The *actual* alternative to the EU is to be an even more servile and powerless client of the Trump (nuke ’em) US. That is the reality – not the New Jerusalem. Why do you think are the Tory swivel-eyes so keen on the idea?
As to associations within the ‘Remain’ camp : I’m not keen on standing next to the likes of Umunna. But getting anywhere near the smell of Farage, Duncan Smith, Redwood, Johnson, Fox and Mogg????? Not really a testament to progressive politics.
are you not aware that austerity and the attack on the disabled has resulted tens of thousands of suicides? Don’t you think that Brexit will undoubtedly exacerbate this situation? There are times when you need to get off your Blairite platform and shout at the people who deserve it
And are you aware that all of that tragedy; all of those thousands who died from the Atos Work Capability Assessment tests etc died whilst Britain was a member of the EU?
The EU knew this slaughter was happening under its nose but it did nothing to stop it. It watched.
This shouldn’t surprise anyone after the EU’s attacks on Greece and Portugal.
It never ceases to amaze me that people forget that Maybot is a ‘Remainer’. That is her raison d’tre. What is the outcome that a ‘Remainer’ would most like? Create the chaos & undermine negotiations to what end? Strange also that state owned BBC & Channel 4 seldom even mention protest marches, should constantly announce, ahead of schedule, that the 2nd Referendum march is taking place. The perception industries are always working on us. Cameron misunderstood hubris.
How right you are. I’m just waiting for the extension of the transition period by which time everyone will be so sick and tired of hearing how 70/80/90% of Labour members, voters, MPs and supporters are remain supporters etc, that we will all cave in and either have another referendum or just cancel Brexit altogether and be welcomed back into the club you can never leave. It’s either that, or a massive fudge where we’re in in all but name and maybe allowed a couple of external trade deals that are worse than Europe already has.
Incidentally, no one knows how many Labour voters support Brexit and YouGov is a poor man’s Cambridge Analytica where people do marketing surveys for 50p a time and tell total strangers stuff they want them to hear.
If the YouGov survey is as flawed as you claim then it is somewhat surprising that the Brexit camp haven’t commissioned their own survey to contradict it. Can you think of a reason they haven’t done this?
I can think of 17million as opposed to 16 million – all of whom took part in an official vote… Is that not good enough?
I can think of a few. They’re not awash with foreign money like remain is. They take it as read that polls, other than exit polls, have nothing to do with factual data, they are commissioned to influence people. Not to mention the fact that most people aren’t prepared to tell total strangers who contact them by phone or email, their personal details and how they vote. Plus most working class people are hard at work not answering polls or surveys.
Looks like this so called ‘peoples vote march’ has had an intended effect… add fuel to the divisions and antipathy within the ‘left’. This doesn’t bode well for the future.
Anyway, here’s Larry Elliot’s take in Spiked.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2018/10/19/the-establishment-is-trying-to-keep-us-in-the-eu/
I like receiving Skwakbox posts. Some of the posts are occasionally too sectarian and too keen to sow division within Labour. This is one of the worst really, I think, and shows both a lack of insight into notions of unity and fraternity and naivety about the EU.
It’s not Blairites alone who support the People’s Vote, it is over 140? constituency Labour parties who voted, recently, to support some kind of popular vote on this issue. The Blairite jibe reads as just ill informed and a little childish, really.
Sure, the EU is responsible for all kind of problems for those committed to social justice and equity. However, those on the political right like Johnson, Farage, Gove, Rees Mogg et al are keen on Brexit, specifically no deal, because they see it as an opportunity for wealth creation for their friends, insecurity for most, increased exploitation and final destruction of the vestiges of the welfare estate within their neo-liberal globalisation Nirvanha. Staying in the EU provides more opportunities for a fairer, more compassionate, more equitable UK.
We need to heal the divisions in society that is driving so many into dispare.
Suicide is a serious issue. It is alarming that no one removed the posters in the day. What has become of society when it fails to recognise the difference between right and wrong?
“Staying in the EU provides more opportunities for a fairer, more compassionate, more equitable UK.” Tell that to the people struggling to pay Bedroom Tax. Tell that to the people using foodbanks. Tell that to the sick and elderly who are losing out.. Tell that to zero hours workers. Tell that to the homeless dying on our streets. This is all happening under the EU. Blame the Tories but they are just doing what Tories do. The EU is standing by and looking the other way.
Or we could just blame the UK voters for electing a Tory government. Abdicating responsibility is childish and is not going to help anyone
Only a minority of the electorate elected the Tory govt. You appear to have a rose-tinted view of tthe EU which is complicit in what is happening.Neo-liberalism has no morals. It only cares about markets.
Then do something constructive and campaign for PR instead of falling into the DM trap of childishly blaming the EU for anything. It is not the EU’s fault that we have a crap voting system.
I’m not blaming the EU for everything. The EU had the potential for good but it may have escaped your notice that, since 1990 it has become, and remains, a neo-liberal boot boy and is not going to change anytime soon.
PR is dead in the water ever since the LibDums collaborated with the Nasty Party..
Neither is the Tory party. It is really unwise to give them carte-blanche to decimate our rights and protections over the next few years. To paraphrase you ‘Tories just do what Tories do’
Admittedly Nick Clegg’s capitulation didn’t help, thanks to him the British people have yet to have the opportunity to vote for PR but being defeatist is not going to get us anywhere.
anything >>> everything
I see that a lot of new comment has appeared, quite a bit further back in this thread. Some of it, in my view, is still worth taking the trouble to read, e.g. the comments on the “longer view/ longer lens” of DMcN and lundiel.
Meanwhile, my question about the extent to which Labour has already been forced into compromise over “a customs union”, solution, i.e. the potentially negative impact of such an agreement on state intervention, state aid and the development of an industrial strategy:
According to Professor Whyman, ‘The Left Case for Brexit’ (Civitas, 2018), the answer appears to be yes; it could have a have a very negative impact – especially if it looks anything like its nearest equivalent, the so called “Turkey” option, referred to In the chapter entitled ‘Making a Choice – What Type of Brexit’.
His comment is a qualified one though. He makes the more hopeful point that whilst Turkey is seeking “in”, the UK is seeking “out”: “This may enable the UK to press for a looser adherence to the EU commercial and regulatory framework … failure to do so would result in UK policy makers being stymied in their stated intention to develop a substantive and active form, of industrial policy, aimed at rebuilding the UK manufacturing industry and thereby rebalancing the economy.” I think this especially pertains to the much earlier comments above ,by Ultraviolet and Maria Jacob.
It is perhaps the review by Whyman that causes Larry Elliott of the Guardian to comment:
“If by ‘No Deal’ you mean leaving on WTO terms, I think there would be some problems initially, but I don’t think it would be that bad an outcome. The US and China trade with the EU on WTO terms. It would add some frictions in the short term, but I’m not someone who thinks it would be disastrous for the economy.
To be honest, I’d rather have a clean Brexit than what currently seems to be on offer: staying in the EU in all but name, …”
No, you won’t find this written in ‘The Guardian”. It’s in the Link to the ‘Spiked’ interview, provided above by Maria.