67 responses to “See clarification

  1. It could get even worse. Some Tories have mooted that those in receipt of the State pension perform duties for the community, or even made to work for an employer eg fruit picking. Tories are openly describing the State pension as a “benefit” or “handout” when we have already paid up to 50 years’ NI contributions and taxes. Could our pensions be subject to sanctions?

    Liked by 8 people

    • Don’t put it past them. Once they’ve killed off most of the unemployed & disabled, there won’t be enough (affected) pensioners to make up the shortfall in the opposition vote.

      And the corporates’ll will still want their free labour…

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  2. People who don’t know their rights can easily be in the WRAG rather than the SG as it is. If the SG is set to become as evil as the WRAG, It probably doesn’t matter.

    There is a massive social ‘cleansing’ going on. Just like nazi Germany in the 1930s, it’s been happening so slowly for such a long time, it all seems ‘normal’ to mainstream society.

    Liked by 7 people

    • Yep. ‘Standartenfuhrer’ dummkopf-schmitt, aided & abetted by the ‘ministry of enlightenment’ (murdoch, dacre & desmond) have told us all the disabled are all blagging anyway.

      Another term for them, and you’ll be seeing the likes of this

      Liked by 1 person

  3. So the insidious demonisation and virtual wiping out of those not in full health continues. Who’s next? The old? Families who have kids that fail their SATs and therefore won’t be “useful” members of society? Those who belong to the wrong political party? It’s a slippery slope and we’ve begun the journey unless we can get this horrible government out for a very long time.

    Liked by 7 people

  4. Surely the Tories do not even have a mandate to be carrying through such evil measures. Due to there always being more people than there are jobs,there can never be full employment, and let’s face it, the Tories love unemployment to keep wages low, so this is nothing more than a cull.

    Liked by 7 people

  5. Really hard to believe they are capable of such cruelty but unfortunately they are. Shades of Nazi Germany here. The more people here abut this the better,I didn’t think even this government could be so incredibly callous. It will mean people will take any kind of job,low paid or not just to be free of sanctions so where are our human and employment rights. And they tell us we will prosper. Some chance

    Liked by 4 people

    • Really hard to believe they are capable of such cruelty but unfortunately they are. Shades of Nazi Germany here.

      Absolutely. The sick & unemployed being sent to an early grave by the low-paid ‘kapos’ of the DWP/JCP on behalf of the nazis in charge of the Govt.

      ‘Arbeit Macht Frei’…

      Liked by 3 people

  6. above rights sanctions you take any job just to get out of the jcp clutches but hold on if ones got children or claiming working tax credits then you be pulled back In oh dear by the summer of 41 it seems they learnt how to rid themselves of those they don’t like

    Liked by 1 person

  7. There was an article in the Birmingham Post about the PCS union protesting about a visit from dummkopf-schmitt in April 2013

    Link doesn’t direct you to it anymore so if anyone knows how to find it from this…http://www.birminghampost.net/news/politics-news/2013/04/29/unions-blast-tory-chief-for-ducking-out-of-visit-to-smethwick-jobcentre-65233-33251097/

    Essentially, the quote from the PCS rep or DWP employee – a certain Mr Lloyd – was that: ‘People were so angry, they were going to shred their £25 M&S vouchers up in front of IDS’

    The vouchers, he said, were: ‘part of a carrot & stick approach’

    So we KNOW they get inducements to sanction. Geoffrey Reynolds made an FoI request to the DWP about the issue – of course, they denied it. (Will post link to FoI request in next post as this one will go under moderation if I post another link)

    JCP worker’s kid needs new school shoes = dole out sanctions. The conflict of interest ought to be unlawful. The PCS refused to even discuss sanctions of the public – only when it was discovered they might have to sanction each other did they make a noise about it.

    Balls to serwotka, and the ‘Paulines’ of the DWP & JCP staff. They don’t give a toss about us. They ought to hoofed from the TUC for complicity in helping this evil bunch of snides to destroy other’s lives. The ‘Nuremberg defence’ just doesn’t wash .

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  8. I’m struggling to understand some of this.

    According to Citizens Advice there are 4 conditionality groups (WRAGs), 3 of which do not require the claimant to look for work.

    “https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/universal-credit/interview/claimant-commitment-what-group/”

    If one is not required to look for work, how can one be sanctioned for not finding a job?

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    • Never heard of ATOS or Maximus, and what they do, then?

      Get with the programme, eh? Oh, I almost forgot….This is what YOU vote for. YOU gave them their ‘mandate’ to do this sort of sh*t.

      Oh, I’m sorry – maybe I should tug my forelock and go & stack shelves in tesco or poundland for f**k-all….Might get me some ‘vital work experience’.

      Jesus wept.

      Liked by 1 person

      • I don’t think that’s helped me to understand how someone who’s not required to seek work can be sanctioned for not obtaining it.

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      • Disabled person goes to work capability assessment (WCA)

        Found ‘Fit for work’ by Maximus/ATOS.

        Sent to Jobcentre to claim JSA, because no entitlement to disability benefit(s)

        Placed in WRAG

        Jobcentre coach says: ‘Do this, do that, and do the other’ as part of ‘claimant commitment’

        Disabled person is in no state to comply – because Maximus/ATOS told lies, or the result was SERIOUSLY flawed. Or person has no transport/internet/phone or anything else that’s necessary to find ‘work’.

        Jobcentre work coach (bully) says: “Do it, or do without’. Jobcentre worker has total autonomy, and the right of appeal is non-existent if there is a refusal to comply with claimant commitment – no matter how ridiculous they might be.. No exceptions.

        I had to go through something similar with my dad. Next time I have to apply for his attendance allowance (He’s 81) I KNOW they’ll refuse him again. Even though they refused him last time, and on his appeal the DWP actually raised the rate he was on (With the excellent help of a welfare advice centre)

        I know they’ll want him left unattended all day, while I’ll probly be forced to go out to work stacking shelves for JSA in tesco’s.

        Well they can fuck right off.

        Liked by 3 people

  9. But there are 4 WRAGs according to Citizens Advice of which 3 do not require the claimant to seek work.

    What I can’t understand is how anyone in those 3 groups could be sanctioned for not getting a job.

    (Skwawkbox’s activist says “That is 100% across the board sanctioning. Basically, 24 months to find a job or you are on the streets with zero support.”. I find it hard to believe that the three groups I’ve mentioned have zero members and everyone’s in the fourth)

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    • *Butts wall*

      Read the article again, and pay attention to THIS part.

      “Nobody is mentioning the JSA equivalent time out clause, 24 months to find a job or you are sanctioned for one year.

      That is 100% across the board sanctioning. Basically, 24 months to find a job or you are on the streets with zero support.”

      JSA equivalent…..That’s those who are not disabled* but claiming JSA.

      *Or those found fit for work and moved onto JSA from disability benefit(s).

      Please, PLEASE try & understand what’s going on, ffs.

      Liked by 2 people

      • The fact that people don’t understand what’s going on only goes to underline what a horrendously complicated system this government has developed while in office. Of course it’s designed to confuse claimants whether disabled or not and to ensure that as many as possible do not either apply, or if they do, they often do something wrong inadvertently and still get into hot water. The whole set up is wicked and designed to fail those who need it to succeed the most. You can’t blame people who have not had experience of it to be baffled. Most of us have battles to fight too and we sometimes can’t keep up with all the detail of everybody else’s. It’s government strategy. Divide and rule.

        Liked by 3 people

      • I’m sorry, Christine, but people’s ignorance is no excuse. Graham Hindson isn’t so dumb as to not have read the post properly. The DWP culture of sanctions has been going on for about 8-10 years, now. It’s gotten gradually worse under the toerags.

        I appreciate there are those who have no clue about benefits – that doesn’t mean that people who try to explain to him are wrong, or must undergo further interrogation. People on benefits have enough hoops to jump through, in order to receive their ‘largesse’ (As the tories allow the rags to refer to welfare as).

        Those that accept the words of dummkopf-schmitt’s, murdoch’s, rothermere’s and desmond’s crass, incessant shitstirring lies as gospel have no excuse – whether they’ve ever needed welfare or not. I fear it’s the case with graham.

        It’s no excuse to be ‘blissfully unawares’ of negotiating the benefits system, it’s most definitely no excuse of claimants in the eyes of the DWP/JCP (PCS members) to be ‘blissfully unaware’ – They will gladly sanction for THE most spurious of reasons – depriving people of their ‘safety net’ and then further punishing them for their (DWP’s in many instances) ‘mistakes’ with a £50 civil penalty, pushing the poor sods into hock even further. All for a fucking easter egg…

        But I expect graham will come back & try to tell us the ‘mistakes’ MUST lie with the claimant. His Govt can do no wrong, see? Nevermind the staggering amount the DWP has spent on legal issues & having appeals in the high court – as well as a high percentage of successful claimant appeals – found against them.

        That money’d be better spent on actually providing people with benefits, than the courts ffs.

        ‘Divide & Rule’ only works if you accept bullshit over facts. People need to get wise. And graham’s not one for that. It’s most probly the case that he’s been fortunate enough never to have needed the state to keep his head above water; therefore if he’s taken no interest then he really ought not to start passing comment & questioning the validity of things that don’t affect him directly.

        He’s ignorant because he wants to be. God help him if he ever needed to sign on these days. Remember when IDS said he believed he was right when admonished by the ONS (As he has been on several occasions) over the benefit cap?

        http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/05/duncan-smith-rebuked-ons-misuse-benefit-statistics

        That’s how these bastards work – I’M RIGHT – YOU PROVE I’M WRONG.

        And that’s how graham’s mind works, too.

        Liked by 1 person

    • But there are 4 WRAGs according to Citizens Advice of which 3 do not require the claimant to seek work. I never heard that there are 4wrags its wrag you look for work or support group were one doesn’t yet to say 4 hmmm but those in the sg are now going to be targeted to look for work just has the wrag just follow action t4 listen to old woman telling you whot happened start adding the dots together they actualy doing it jeff3

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      • “According to CAB” doesn’t equal “the facts are” or even “the reality is”. The advice workers are invariably lovely people (and well-intentioned). I still go there but they recently had information about legal aid that wasn’t current – leading to further research/phone calls being required to get anywhere.

        CAB refer to the available (‘offcial’) written information and are not experts. They haven’t, in general, necessarily experienced the reality which very often doesn’t match with ‘how it’s supposed to be’ although they are empathic and can see the effects & now regularly hear anecdotal evidence.

        Consider IDS’s many & various proclamations/protestations too – e.g. on bbcqt faced with people who had relatives they had lost under the current ‘fit to work’ nightmare.

        Liked by 1 person

  10. There is also the disgusting Health Conversations that are being scheduled whilst in the assessment phase which can require some form of activity. These ‘conversations’ are not with qualified medical practitioners and if their GP/Consultant have said they are not fit for work who are the DWP to OVERRULE them!

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    • samual its not causing alarm its for warning whot they going to do to us haven’t you heard of those thousands of deaths at the hands of jcp dwp driving peoples to commit suicide its a never ending battle for many who sadly cant see that this governments out to cull the stock through benefits denial sadly far to many believe that those on benefits are social scroungers when the real social scroungers are our policians in the house of ill repute jeff3

      Liked by 2 people

      • Jeffrey, remember when dummkopf-schmitt (And the RW press) called that Brazilian UN inspector ‘a nutter’ over her report on the bedroom tax?

        It doesn’t matter what Samuel says or does – the toerags wont change. The’ll carry on regardless, and bollocks to the poor.

        Liked by 1 person

  11. @ The Toffee

    You’re right – I’ve been fortunate to have pretty good health and pretty good jobs all my working life until I retired, so I do have difficulty following this.

    The headline of the article is “DISABLED CLAIMANTS TOLD: 2 YRS TO GET JOB OR BE SANCTIONED FOR A YEAR”

    But if I’m following you properly when you say –

    “JSA equivalent…..That’s those who are not disabled* but claiming JSA.

    *Or those found fit for work and moved onto JSA from disability benefit(s).”

    – the sanction of “no job in two years lose the benefit” is nothing to do with disabled claimants, but those who aren’t disabled.

    Perhaps you can understand my confusion.

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    • Hello, Graham.

      JSA is for fit and well people who are able to work. The sick and disabled people moved on to JSA are therefore treated as if they are NOT sick or disabled. It’s a way of saying, “We do not believe you are sick or disabled and so we are treating you like people who are fit and well and able to work.”

      If the claimant has been unfairly assessed and is NOT really fit and well and able to work, they cannot live up to the expectations placed on them and so they get sanctioned (ie lose their benefit).

      The system is punitive and designed to trip up as many people as possible because sanctioned people do not show up in the unemployment figures. It gives a false impression that people (both disabled and abled) are finding work when really the work isn’t there and sick and disabled people couldn’t do it anyway. They are simply not being supported. These people ae starving on the streets, queuing at food banks etc and are invisible unless demonised.

      The system is designed to be cruel for political/ ideological reasons.

      Hope this clarifies.

      Liked by 3 people

      • So it’s not, as the article claims “… 100% across the board sanctioning. Basically, 24 months to find a job or you are on the streets with zero support.”

        It’s only for those who are deemed, rightly or wrongly, to be not disabled.

        Those who are still classed as disabled and in one of the 3 WRAGs not requiring job seeking won’t be sanctioned.

        Have I got that right?

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      • graham I cant see 4 wrags its wrag were ones deemed to be nearly ready for work were they can and will sanction you if you don’t jump through hoops they do sanction many by the letter caper were ones sanctioned has they tell you didn’t show up for the appointment that the letter told one about its a lie so that they can and will sanction one were you getting they cant or wont sanction you well there are far to many were this has happened to sadly has I stated wrag you look for work and support group were at the moment they don’t chase you but that’s about to change if they pass the new law were they can force you to look also has for the these highly trained hcp whose points take away your benefits forced to sign on then these peoples many who fight back go to tribunals to win their monies back these are cruely treated jeff3 I hope one can make sense of it has of my English brain slowly going west

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    • Look graham, while not disabled meself I can empathise absolutely with those who are.

      Weekly we hear of disabled folk found ‘fit for work’ who have gone on to win their appeals because the system is a ‘one size fits all’ approach. Many have even gone on to die within days of the assesments, or commit suicide.

      Here’s a link to some of the most ridiculous reason for people being ‘sanctioned’ (I despise that word and all it’s connotations)

      https://www.indy100.com/article/sixteen-of-the-most-senseless-benefit-sanction-decisions-known-to-man–x1dmkd2_Me

      ATOS/Maximus are finding more genuinely disabled folks ‘fit for work’ than they are ‘blaggers’. Their tory idea is that every disabled person can all be like tanni-grey thompson if they only put their mind to it.

      This means that those moved to JSA will have to find work – despite still having disability – within two years or face abject penury, because the will lose their entitlement (Note the word well, because it isn’t a ‘handout’) to disability benefit(s).

      With employers not wanting to go through the hassle of making their premises ‘disability friendly’ – despite Govt assistance available – these poor sods face an even harder time trying to find a job.

      And would YOU want to have a violent schizophrenic working alongside you where there are all sorts of things that they might hurt you, or themselves with? I know I wouldn’t.

      But the tories think there’s no issue about that, neither, apparently.

      Like

      • Oh, and by the way….

        When I had to reapply for income support (Being a carer for my dad I have to rely on IS and carer’s allowance) I was told I was expected to look for work.

        I was ‘invited’ to attend the jobcentre to speak to a ‘work coach’ (About as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike) every 6 or so weeks . Except they dragged me in on average every 2 weeks for 5 months, because the ‘work coach’ would be somewhere else or off work herself.

        Eventually I discovered that there was no compulsion for me to attend the total waste of time…But it won’t be long before it’s made compulsory for carers, too, if these rats get their way.

        Like

    • Graham, for the last time….

      ATOS/Maximus are finding disabled people ‘fit for work’

      Look the assessor in the eye = fit for work

      Being able to sign your name = fit for work

      Turning up for the assessment = fit for work

      And so on.

      These disabled people are losing disability payments and being shifted to JSA.

      So the 100% of JSA claimants mentioned includes those with a disability, but found ‘fit for work’.

      PLEASE stop questioning the validity of the claim, or the semantics of it.

      I’m leaving the thread now, as my blood pressure’s going through the roof… But no doubt if I have a stroke today, I’ll be found ‘fit for work’ tomorrow.

      Liked by 1 person

      • You’ll have no doubt spotted the update to this story:

        “https://skwawkbox.org/2017/07/17/important-wragsanction-dont-panic-yet/”

        Like

  12. The Toffee, of course I bow to your knowledge. Mine is 11 years out of date since my disabled husband died and we were having to negotiate the system which was bad enough in those days. I know it’s 100 times worse now.
    It’s still the case that the majority of people don’t need the state to keep their heads above water although the number is inexorably growing under the Tories. I know nothing about Graham Hindsom’s knowledge, or whether his ignorance is actual or wilful. I only know that the knowledge of my wider family is pathetic when it comes to people that have to use benefits, and it is family who used to use “the bloke up the road on the social who’s got nothing wrong with him” as an example of how there should be a crackdown and the Tories were doing the right thing. And I had to educate them. The divide and rule thing was completely obvious because most people are indoctrinated by their newspapers, other the media and the last thing they heard down the pub, and do not recognise “bullshit” when they see it.
    Yes people need to get wise, but they frequently also need help to recognise the lies they are surrounded by. The “system” is very clever at presenting deception as truth.
    I hope you and your father are not impeded any more by the current abusive system.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Thanks for your thoughtful words. But yeah, I know the feeling, Christine. 😦

      I had it out with some divvy in a local supermarket carpark about 3 years ago who tried to terrorise a woman on a blue badge, saying the only thing wrong with her is that she was overweight….You get the drift?!

      I was so annoyed with the ignoranus I offered him a disability of his own – one that’d be far more evident to everybody than the poor woman he was castigating. He soon shut up. The worst part was, he was old enough to have known far better; at least as old as me, the horridable punk.

      But the thing is, having had his Attendance Allowance knocked back – only to be put onto the higher rate after a mandatory consideration and appeal (Thanks to the [now shut, unfortunately] Wallasey employment & welfare centre) I’m living in constant fear that next time they’ll knock my dad back altogether, and therefore will demand I go out to work leaving him unattended all day long. No way will I allow him to go into a care home, EVER – even though he’s ‘well enough’ not to be in one

      I’d love to go back to a job – I didn’t ask for me dad to be this way. I know that if he was )of working age today, this Govt would’ve tried to kill him off years ago. Instead (Fortunately for him) he’s 81, we all of us get older. Age takes it’s toll on everyone – like any disability it doesn’t discriminate. He, like miilions of others (Of any age) will never get ‘better’ so why do they think he/they will?

      It’s just not on what these snakes are doing.

      Liked by 1 person

  13. WHAT THE HELL IS A MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE YOU KEEP COMMENTING ON HERE ABOUT WHAT’S HAPPENING WITH THIS TORY RABBLE REMEMBER THE POLE TAX THERE IS ONLY 331 OF THESE TWATS THERE’S MILLIONS OF US IT’S NOW TIME TO ACT.

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    • Erm – assuming “THESE TWATS” are Cons MPs, there are only 318 of them representing 13.7m voters. That’s 55 more MPs and 800k more voters than what I assume is your alternative.

      Like

  14. @jeffrey davies

    I’m looking at the Citizens Advice website:

    “https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/universal-credit/interview/claimant-commitment-what-group/”

    It’s quite long but here’s what it says:

    “As part of your Universal Credit ‘claimant commitment’, you’ll be placed into a ‘work-related activity group’ (sometimes called ‘conditionality group’). Each group contains types of activities that you’ll have to do to prepare for work or look for a job. In some cases, you might not have to do any activities.

    You can’t choose what group you’re in, but you can make sure that your work coach puts you in the right one. Don‘t be afraid to question your work coach if you think they’re putting you into the wrong group. This is really important, because if you get put into the wrong group and struggle with the activities, you could end up getting sanctioned (ie have some of your Universal Credit payment reduced temporarily).
    Once you’ve been placed within a group, the specific activities you could do within that group are negotiable. For example, you might want to limit the hours you look for work because you have to pick your children up from school at 3pm every day.

    The 4 work-related activity groups are:

    ‘no work-related requirements group’ – you don’t have to do any activities to prepare or look for work
    ‘work-focused interview group’ – you have to go to regular interviews with your work coach at the Jobcentre to get support with preparing for work in the future. You won’t have to look for work, be available for work or prepare for work now
    ‘work preparation group’ – you have to do activities to prepare for work, eg attend training, do some work experience, write a CV, go to interviews with your work coach at the Jobcentre to help you find or stay in work. You won’t have to actually search for work or be available for work
    ‘all work-related requirements group’ – you have to do all you can to find a job or a higher paid job. This includes looking for jobs, applying for jobs, going to interviews, etc. You have to be ready and available to take up work straight away
    What group you’re in can change over time as your personal circumstances change. You’ll regularly review this with your work coach”.

    Perhaps CA have got it wrong – if they have then I would urge someone with more knowledge than me to put them right.

    I admit to almost zero knowledge of the system, so have to take information from what appears to be a reliable source but am questioning the quality of the journalism here, rather than commenting on the system itself.

    It appears that I am right to do so, as Skwawkbox has now published an update essentially saying that this article may not be quite right.

    Liked by 1 person

    • I’ve no idea what you mean by that, assuming that you’re referencing this:

      “https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4”

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      • People, don’t let graham’s ‘confusion’ become mistaken for his underhanded endeavours to try to traduce what’s being reported. It might not be fact – yet.

        Doesn’t mean it’s a total fabrication, given the DWP’s form;

        Don’t mistake his apparent ‘enthusiasm’ to genuinely understand what’s going on, be mistaken for his surreptitious attempt to dismiss the matter out of hand.

        We’ve already heard dummkopf-schmitt and fester mcvile tell us other similar reports were ‘scaremongering’ Yet they were the ones admonished for abusing and deliberately misinterpreting official statistics…

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  15. @The Toffee

    Would you concede then that perhaps it was legitimate of me (and presumably others) to question the accuracy of the article?

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    • No, I’ll concede nothing to you over this, graham.

      Nothing. There is NO common ground to be sought here. People are being killed either directly, or indirectly by this ideology (Because that’s ALL it is) and you see fit to find a method to try to repudiate these claims in what’s a defence of the same ideology carried out by the rats you vote for, possibly as some sort of self-exoneration.

      All under the masquerade of appearing to be genuinely unawares, and wanting to find out more.

      It doesn’t wash, mucker. I’m well on to you. Just like I’m well onto them.

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      • I think you’re missing the point.

        The UC system in general may or may not be the best or the worst thing ever for disabled and/or jobless people – I don’t know enough about it to comment properly, and I’ve never experienced it.

        But after even the most basic research I suspected that the article here wasn’t 100% accurate – and it turns out that others shared that view and even its author now has doubts.

        It’s the quality of the journalism I’m questioning rather than making a defence of the system or any ideology..

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      • Yes – thereby reinforcing (in your mind only) the ‘scaremongering’ dummkopf-schmitt & mcvile said the Trussel Trust were guilty of when telling them that the reason foodbanks use was rising exponentially was due to sanctions & benefit delays and that the future looked even bleaker if it carried on.

        Well, foodbank use has risen exponentially since then (2013 IIRC) – And they STILL deny it.

        Liked by 1 person

  16. Yes graham but go to YouTube listen to the old woman speaking about those who couldn’t work sounds so similar today’s government

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  17. Oh dear while you discuss this more of us will be culled under history repeating itself in this government Godwin hay

    Liked by 2 people

    • IMHO to all the good folks who are responding to Hindson you , I fear , are wasting your time and playing his game . His only intention and purpose is to cover the actions of his Govt paymasters by appearing reasonable on the surface but below is an all out Tory Troll who is as unpleasant as they come .Visit some of the articles surrounding Grenfell tower fire and note his ducking and diving to straight questions and utter lack of sensitivity and compassion , and then note here again on this topic the same pattern of comment .
      His reason is to undermine this blog ,make you think it is unworthy of belief and to question its writers honesty. Whilst providing a blanket of cover for the actions of the establishment and his Govt who he defends every time very subtly . There is a very clear pattern of action that he masquerades as ” debate” but successfully in some cases “pushes all the right buttons ” ,that wind up ( me included but no more ) honest decent people with a moral conscience , something he clearly has none of .
      No doubt he will respond to this in his usual whining way playing the injured sole who only wants debate , when in fact he wants to shut down and destroy any alternative narrative to the one his puppet masters want you to hear.
      I leave you to make the judgement and intend no insult to any who have genuinely tried to engage in meaningful debate with this Troll

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  18. Cab are run by people who wants to help but the higher ups well they ain’t whot I they seem the monies here in Wales is paid out of the dwp to cab funny old world has for rtu ids he taught his disciple well greying he sent forth to to take justice away for the many

    Like

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