A few days after the seismic shock of the US electing a man who campaigned on racist promises of walling off Mexico, labelling Mexicans as rapists and banning all Muslim visitors, today’s ‘Marr’ show will contribute to a balanced, measured perspective – by giving a platform to French fascist leader Marine le Pen.
On Remembrance Sunday, when we honour the memory of millions who fought – and often died – to defeat the plague of fascism.
Some people get it, like Labour’s outstanding Angela Rayner:
Marine Le Pen speaking on #Marr Remembrance Sunday? Why not interview our veterans who fought fascists&lost so many comrades?So wrong BBC!
— 🌈 Angela Rayner 🌈 (@AngelaRayner) November 12, 2016
The scandal of the UK’s national broadcaster giving airtime to an avowed advocate of bigotry shames the BBC – but also typifies its track record over recent years.
Some people get that, too – like journalist Paul Mason:
BBC systematically boosted Nick Griffin, Farage and now Le Pen. You'll be harder on Corbyn than Mme Nazi.
— Paul Mason (@paulmasonnews) November 12, 2016
A few years ago, Nigel Farage and his UK Independence Party were a sideshow – a freak show – that very few people took seriously. But the BBC gave him a prominence far beyond what UKIP’s electoral performances merited.
Whether for entertainment or for darker reasons, Farage’s ugly mug and shameless bigotry were on almost every politics show, giving him a massive platform to spout hideous racism and xenophobia.
Farage was, this morning, the first UK politician to meet Trump and there’s a definite asymmetry in their reactions – in stark contrast to the BBC, even Trump has the sense to be squeamish about giving Farage a photo opportunity:
By legitimising Farage and UKIP in this way, the BBC (and other media) legitimised racist views. They made it start to seem ok to be a bigot, to those so inclined.
Years later, the fruit of that idiocy is a Britain on its way out of the EU and a massive increase in hate crime in a country that used to pride itself on its tolerance and civility.
Clearly nothing has been learned – or else the tactic was intentional. Trump’s elections have seen an immediate surge in racist incidents in the US.
And the BBC’s reaction? Give another fascist a platform.
The foolishness of the BBC and other media with regard to Farage and UKIP is very recent and its cost even more so. Yet clearly they have learned nothing from it and are doomed – or determined – to repeat it.
What a load of slanted rhetoric!
What a load of slanted rhetoric
UKIP supporter, by any chance?
Before all else, I am going to pre-empt your accusation that I am a UKIP supporter, as you did with the dissenting viewpoint above. I am nothing of the sort, and I suspect Kc Gordon isn’t either. But this article shows exactly how bereft of ideas the left is. The BBC gets slated by the right too, for being too left-wing. Are they supposed to embody their impartiality by only inviting bland centrists to agree with each other on TV? No. As wrong as the ideas and rhetoric of Farage and Le Pen are, they have a right to be heard. The (broad, modern) left’s obsession with shutting people down, no-platforming, and labelling people bigots because they express dissenting views has contributed in large part to the twin disasters of Brexit and Trump. If you find yourself saying somebody doesn’t have the right to express their opinion, retrograde or otherwise, you’ve lost the argument and you will lose the war. Take a hard look at yourself and try to win debates with superior reason rather than refusing to engage with them.
It wasn’t a contextless comment. KCG has long ‘form’ on the comments section of this blog. As for the rest of your comment, you’re entitled to your opinion but the accusation that the BBC is left wing is so ridiculous it can only be either a smoke-screen or, if genuinely meant, the result of a delusional disorder.
And if you think everyone should have a say, where do you draw the line? Paedophiles? Of course there are some views that should not be given airtime, even if some of them are not illegal. Let them find their own platform rather than giving them legitimacy.
By giving the likes of LePen the time to air their views the BBC are fulfilling their own prophesy of the possible outcome of French Elections yet to be held. It stinks.
Might also be a swipe at France, who now seem to be the “Enemy of Britain” in this race to the 19th Century we are indulging in. The Right to free speech is one thing, the right to foment racism, facism and eventual violence is something to be deplored.
I would say let her speak but also let the opposite view be heard. I believe Corbyn was very measured in his response. I have seen this full face picture of this woman on various social media. I simply added this.
If you have attended a memorial remembrance service today, Have a good look at this womans face. She represents the type of people that many of the people you are remembering gave their lives to defeat. It is because of their sacrifice that people like her have the freedom to express their views. She is the face of the modern day Nazi.
Whether you agree with Marine Le Pen or not, her views are legitimate, not as her enemies make out and perfectly legal.
Where does the idea come from that any view on the demographic landscape of a society is somehow ‘racist’? It’s a ridiculous notion. If something isn’t done to change the trends of a growing muslim population with a shrinking indigenous one, Western countries will, at some point along our current trajectory, be predominantly muslim with shariah law replacing our democratic systems. That is a nightmare scenario far worse than anything Hitler tried to throw at us. Muslims want a global caliphate and are colonizing developed countries with a view to peacefully achieving that aim. They don’t need guns in the West because they are using the democratic systems to destroy the democratic systems (just the odd atrocity to let us know they are serious).
I’ve watched numerous interviews with Marine Le Pen on You Tube expecting to find the devil incarnate. It was a relief to find a normal, intelligent woman concerned with the future of her own country. She is no Trump. Let’s keep a sense of proportion and recognize the dangers the West is facing. If Le Pen is wrong (and she may well be for all I know), defeat her with rational argument. The law already exists to prevent so-called ‘hate speech’. I don’t often agree with the BBC but on this occasion I say ‘Well done’ – for having the guts to show an often suppressed and demonized point of view.
The soft face of Neo Fascism. She is evil personified. If you can’t or won’t see it then the future is bleak.
Chris, if the islamization of Western countries continues unabated until there is no democracy left, there won’t be any future worth having.
The new fascism isn’t the people standing up to extreme islam but shariah law and the silencing of people opposed to it. It is spreading as a parallel legal system within the UK. It is more barbaric than anything Adolf Hitler could have thought of. We are losing our cities in a steady but escalating way to ghettoized muslim communities which are breeding grounds for radical islam, shariah law and terrorist attacks. People who speak out are demonized.
I don’t agree with Marine Le Pen on other issues (like the break up of the EU), but she is right to want to protect the centuries old culture and heritage of France and its citizens. She is not the threat facing us. Until other mainstream parties wake up to the agenda of the muslim subculture, Marine Le Pen and the ghastly Farage & Trump are the only politicians who stand between us and another Dark Age (assuming they don’t create one of their own). Personally, I’m terrified of the future.
Reblogged this on Declaration Of Opinion .
Oh Dear you really are blinkered and ignorant of the real facts. The islamification of Britain was supposed to have happened years ago. The truth one or two nutters have been hate preaching in the street. People here just treat them with the contempt they deserve. Sharia law, Much of it is medieval, But part of the sharia is hanging and flogging which is heard in Britain daily. We have caused ghettoes in our countries by not clamping down hard on people with your hate views. People stick together where there is safety in numbers. La penne just wants power at any price. She is the modern day face of Neo Nazis in France. I am afrid you are talking to someone who lives in a highly dense muslim area. I can honestly say I have never had a problem with any muslim nor have I ever heard one Muslim complain about christmas or any other christian belief. I do find too many people are putting Muslims in the spotlight where they don’t want to be. I accept they have good and bad like any other country. It is time you really got off the anti Muslim bandwagon and look who is causing the divide and why?
Hello again, Chris, 🙂
‘blinkered’, ‘ignorant’, ‘nutters’, ‘hate preaching’, ‘hate views’, ‘clamping down hard’ on people who disagree with you (!), people needing to ‘stick together’ for ‘safety in numbers’, ‘anti-muslim bandwagon’.
Oh, dear, you have lost the argument.
I too have lived among muslims and found their attitude to women to be diabolical. Of course there are good and bad everywhere. I don’t think they deny wanting a global caliphate in the long term (that is when their claim to be a peaceful religion will kick in) and most seem willing to wait patiently and peacefully for its time to come or for someone else to fight for it. If, or when, it comes, the hangings and floggings you anticipate will actually include beheadings, punishment amputations and stonings already accepted in islamic fundamentalist countries. This is unprecedented in the West.
I reply principally to thank you for proving the truth of my last comment (‘the silencing of people’ etc) and, please be assured, I defend your right to express your views even though I disagree with them. What I worry about is whether I could end up dead for peacefully expressing my own.
Marge, I noticed as usual you cherry pick and use the most extremist examples available. I actually agree with some of your comments about stoning women, and other extreme examples of the Islamic culture. But feel free to vent your spleen but don’t tar everyone with the same brush. This kind of hatred does nobody any good. You claim they want a global caliphate. where in the Koran does it say anything about this. You can quote or misquote to suit any argument from any religion but ask yourself who is it that really suffers? I have debated with several Muslims about their views and interpretations of the Koran. Depending where you ask the question will depend on the answer you receive. If you look at the history of the middle east from say 1945 you will begin to understand why they believe what they believe. we have to take our share of the blame for causing the mess. I was not suggesting clamping down hard on people who disagree with me. but at least do some homework. The people you are looking at I assume to be Isis. These people are the scum of the earth and none of the people in my area can abide them or the war crimes they are committing. I don’t know what the answer is but I know people inBritain using language like you use is designed to simply stir up hate and division. I bet you think Brexit will be the holy grail. I am simply waiting to see it fall apart like it is already. Teresa May doing back door deals with India. hmm the plot thickens.
Chris, you are ducking the issues by replacing them with something of your own invention. I am not ‘venting my spleen’ but stating a few facts. I am not ‘tarring everyone with the same brush’ but concentrating on the key points of a common ideology. I do not ‘use language designed to stir up hate and division’ but am trying to clarify a situation so that uninformed people will hopefully start to look behind the media spin. Your predictable over-reaction is the reason so many people are afraid to speak up. Truth protects and empowers all people. For that we need free speech without these accusations.
For what it’s worth, I am against Brexit and still hope it doesn’t happen because Europe is stronger united than divided. Sadly, it does seem to be disintegrating now, as you say and, like Marine Le Pen, you are pleased about that. Perhaps if we listen to her, we will begin to understand why it is starting to disintegrate. The EU has worked for 40+ years because the member states are equal, believe in basic freedoms and celebrate their cultural diversity (I personally love these things). Islam, on the other hand, is incompatible with Western values which causes its followers to occupy parallel communities at variance with host societies which is bad for both.
By all means speak up for what you believe in (and well done for trying to do so) but you don’t win an argument by levelling accusations of ‘hatred’ etc against your opponents.
If we both want peace, we actually have a lot more in common than you think – which is a good start.
Marge, I have never ducked an issue in my life. You are venting your spleen maybe you just don’t realise it. Which Facts are you actually stating? where can these facts be verified.? Your comments are designed to cause a reaction but you then deny the reaction you get. The sort of comments you make will never get anybody to look behind the media spin. My reaction is measured and anything but over reaction. Your statements about Brexit and mixed cultures are somewhat at odds. Perhaps you need to really work out what it is that is getting to you. Then spit it out. If you are confident in your beliefs then there is nothing to be feared in having your views challenged. Your views seemed to be aimed at Islam. I too have difficulties with some aspects of the religion that are incompatible with a free western civilisation. so do we simply stay quiet or speak out and help change things? I don’t level accusations that I don’t see as justifiable. perhaps your style of expression gives off the wrong vibes. it is worth re reading your comments and maybe you will see how people can easily get the wrong end of the stick.
Chris, be assured I re-read this thread each time I comment to keep it focused.
You duck the issues I raise by pretending it’s ‘hate speech’. Can you give me a direct quote from anything I have written here that is inciting hatred? If there is, you should report it to the police because inciting hatred is a criminal offence. You won’t do that, however, because you know it is an over-reaction. I have written nothing that could remotely be suspected of inciting hatred because there is no hatred.
My views about Brexit and mixed cultures are not ‘at odds’. The EU is a collection of indigenous cultures that evolved together over centuries. It includes a proud tradition of welcoming outsiders fleeing persecution in their own countries and who share the European love of freedom. They integrate and contribute and add to its rich diversity. This has always happened in the UK. Historically, it has made us strong (of course there have been terrible wars but the EU has overcome that and is a reason to remain a member).
The, or ‘my’, dilemma then is straightforward: I want to protect this tradition of freedom and cultural wealth whereas islam wants to destroy, or colonize, it and make Europe in its own image. How do you reason that my views are ‘at odds’ when they are perfectly logical? How do we know islam isn’t ‘the face of the modern day nazi’ (as you put it) and not Marine Le Pen? We need to hear what people have to say to make informed decisions.
You are welcome to challenge my views (or anyone else’s) but using expressions like ‘venting your spleen’, ‘using language like you use is designed to stir up hatred and division’, ‘we have caused ghettoes in our countries by not clamping down hard on people with your hate views’ is not ‘challenging’ my views, it is a knee-jerk over-reaction (even abusive) because you do not personally share my views and perhaps don’t understand them. That is not rational debate.
Let’s not forget that you began posting here because you wanted to take away Marine Le Pen’s freedom of speech – even calling her ‘the face of the modern day nazi’ (how would the rest of us know if that is true or not if we are not allowed to hear her?). I began posting here to defend her freedom of speech, even though I disagree with her on many points.
So which of us is intolerant – or spreading ‘hatred and division’?
What the fuck are you talking about?? Did you read the article?? It certainly comes across like you didn’t. How dare you accuse me of being an anti Muslim bigot. People like you make me sick. Check this blog if you can find one racist article on here I’ll delete it. Otherwise STAY OFF MY BLOG YOUR IGNORANCE IS UNWELCOME!!!!
it seems Ive just let rip at you because you replied to me by mistake and it came up on my blog as though you were making the comment directly to me, will you be more careful next time please as I cannot now delete that comment………..
Try these couple of inflammatory statements. Please explain which issues you think I have ducked.
If something isn’t done to change the trends of a growing Muslim population with a shrinking indigenous one, Western countries will, at some point along our current trajectory, be predominantly Muslim with shariah law replacing our democratic systems. That is a nightmare scenario far worse than anything Hitler tried to throw at us.
I too have lived among Muslims and found their attitude to women to be diabolical. Of course there are good and bad everywhere. I don’t think they deny wanting a global caliphate in the long term (that is when their claim to be a peaceful religion will kick in) and most seem willing to wait patiently and peacefully for its time to come or for someone else to fight for it. If, or when, it comes, the hangings and floggings you anticipate will actually include beheadings, punishment amputations and stonings already accepted in Islamic fundamentalist countries.
Okay, Chris, you’ve reproduced two paragraphs.
The first deals with the changing demographics of the Western world generally. The islamic population is growing and the non-muslim population is shrinking. This is true within individual Western countries like the UK as it is globally. This is because muslims have more children. The decreasing numbers of children in non-muslim families are not enough to sustain the population long term without immigration. This is how Angela Merkel justifies letting in millions of ‘refugees’. The argument goes that without new people from outside, there won’t be enough young people to look after the elderly of the future.
Logically, if the trend continues, at some point the two populations – muslim and non-muslim – will be equal in size. Even further on, they will be greater in size. it’s not rocket science. Once that happens the non-muslims will have the democratic majority and will replace our legal system with their own (shariah law). They are open about wanting to live under shariah law in the West. They already have shariah councils which deal with matters like family law and other matters and they want the numbers and powers of these councils to increase. It is a parallel legal system and incompatible with Western notions of equality. All this is so well-known, I’m surprised you would question it. Are you really suggesting the UK public should be kept in the dark about this? That we should not be allowed (by whom?) to talk about it or draw conclusions? That we are all too stupid to work it out for ourselves? Shariah law would be a nightmare for Western populations. You have certainly ducked this issue but are happy to condemn me for bringing it up.
The second paragraph you reproduce is just more statements of fact which you have ducked. Women under shariah law are little more than chattels. Men are allowed to beat their wives (and a long list of attitudes to women I’m sure you already know about – I’ve witnessed some of them). This is their day to day lives. Rather than me going into the distressing details here I suggest you check out some aptly titled videos on You Tube by David Wood or Dr Bill Warner. I choose these examples because they are ‘face to camera’ and interviews with no harrowing video footage. In this second paragraph, I list some of the atrocities shariah law metes out to offenders. What problem do you have with someone being open about this? You can see them taking place in videos posted on You Tube. Why are you so frightened of people knowing these facts? I have said nothing beyond what muslims themselves know and say. You are ducking this reality.
I emphatically refute that anything I’ve written here is ‘inciting hatred’ or ‘inflammatory’. If the truth is inflammatory then we must learn to cope with inflammatory truths like adults and not demonize people who speak about them. If we put our heads in the sand, we will lose the Western freedoms that two world wars were supposed to make secure.
The more you have written and the more I have read, It is obvious that you are simply Islamaphobic. It is nowhere near as bad as you imagine, Your blog comes from an anti Muslim stance, That is why it is easy to read into it that you are inciting people to fight back. This alone causes hatred. I hope you can stand back and realise that people are people. Muslims do tend to fight amongst themselves. Educate those who seek violence and confrontation in the name of any religion.
I wondered when that little ‘i’ word would raise its ugly head, Chris. It is so abused by people who have lost the argument, it’s really now a compliment to those of us who are rational enough to look beyond the media spin. I suppose the people who objected to Hitler were ‘naziphobes’? Come on.
Let’s see what a phobia actually is. The OED defines it as, ‘extreme or irrational fear of something.’ There is no ‘extreme or irrational fear’ of islam in society. People simply want the right to criticize it (nobody should be above criticism). People have coolly looked at what islam is all about, found it wanting and rejected it as a bad idea. Just as we would any other ideology that threatens our hard-won freedoms (that millions have died for, we take for granted and islam makes use of). We see a threat, you choose not to. We don’t have a phobia because you can’t admit the threat is there.
The ‘i’ word exists purely and simply to shut down debate and deny freedom of speech (as Marine Le Pen is finding out). It exists to intimidate people and shut them up. Ask yourself: Why is that happening? What agenda does it serve? There is no equivalent word for religions whose adherents are happy to fit in with mainstream society.
You may have the right to your interpretation of Islamaphobia which you then refer to the OED as a reference to the meaning of Phobia. Yor description does go on to say that people have looked at Islam and rejected it. I was a catholic but have rejected that religion. So what does that make me? You ask the question about Hitler and were the people who objected to him called Naziphobes. The answer to that is no because most of those known to against Hitler didn’t live very long. I think you have exhausted this avenue of debate as it is obvious you really have got Islamaphobia out of context. The term you really come under is closet racicst.
Chris, you ask what leaving the Catholic Church makes you. I can answer that. It makes you an apostate (nothing wrong with that). Did anyone mind you taking your decision to leave? They may have been disappointed but probably wished you well and said they would welcome you back if you changed your mind. Why? Because that is how Christianity (and religions on the whole) behave in a free society. People have freedom of choice. Faith is based on free will.
Apostates from islam are sentenced to death under shariah law (have you heard of ‘honour killings’?). It doesn’t tolerate any form of dissent under pain of death. For evidence, look at the human rights abuses in islamic fundamentalist countries (ie countries that follow shariah law). That is why most people in society reject islam as an ideology and why we need a word like ‘islamophobia’ to intimidate us into silence. Mentioning it is supposed to clinch any argument. It doesn’t.
So far, you have only called me ‘islamophobic’ which I can laugh off. Now you say I am a ‘racist’ which is more serious as it means I have a prejudice against an entire race of people. Islam is not a ‘race’ as such. It is a belief system. Anyone can choose their beliefs. People cannot choose their race. Are you able to say which race I am prejudiced against exactly? I can answer that for you as well. Nowhere in this blog have I even mentioned another race as being inferior or superior to any other. I have been discussing islam (a belief system/religion/ideology depending on your point of view) and free speech.
You conceded the argument when you accused me of ‘islamophobia’. You have sunk to a new low by calling me a racist.
For your information, Marine Le Pen has nothing against individual muslims and only requires them to fit into French society. Sounds reasonable to me.
I’ll leave you to think about the role of verbal abuse in civilized debate and your own attitude to the people who disagree with you.